An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

[jonoslack]

Pick 25 working Pro's give them a system for 6 months for free to work with and report there findings in public and if it is all the paper says it will be than it will sell like hot cakes. With a completely NEW system in the market it is the smartest strategy to get it off the ground . Make that 24 I'm first . LOL

Hi Guy
But that'll cost over a million bucks (straight out of profit). If they can sell all the cameras they can make (and judging by the M9, and their reported expectations of 1000 S2s a year that doesn't seem so unlikely).

All these arguments (which keep coming round) hinge around the assumption that they're going to be difficult to sell, I just don't believe it. But even if they ARE difficult to sell, surely the time to do this sort of thing (including the loss leader that LJL suggests) is when you have inventory you can't sell and when you've got over any teething troubles without a mass recall. Not when you're very unlikely to be able to keep up with demand!

As for giving pros cameras and asking them to report in public . . . I know you would report back Guy, but I also know from experience that some simply won't bother (and how do you force them?).

 

[ddk]

David Farkas did the shots. I think he used C1 for the P65+ and Lightroom with no profile for the S2! They were not identical shots. The P65+ was shot on a tripod, all the S2 shots were handheld. I don't know what cam/lens was used for the P65+. David said that the P65+ shot was one of Phase's "reference" shots for great image quality. You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear - both shots were outdoors in similar lighting with similar field of view and subject distances. I know there are a lot of variables, but I think David's pretty good at both systems. I know, it sounds like heresy to say such glowing things about a beta camera, but I am haunted by the incredible IQ of what I saw in the S2.

Can't wait to learn more in OR

Somehow I find that hard to believe Brad, I spent a good few months comparing Phase to Leaf before jumping in. I'll go way out on a limb here and say the one thing that I'm 100% sure of, all things being equal, is that the Kodak chips never had the shadow definition or tonal depth of the Dalsa. I'm not arguing with what you saw but unless something was seriously wrong with the P65+ images processed with its dedicated C1 software, I don't see how anything could be head and shoulders above it, specially when you consider dng files with 50% less resolution, converted with pretty generic LR....

 

[fotografz]

Sorry if my earlier post came across snappy. I am a bit sensitized to people complaining that the S2 should cost much less, without taking into account the cost of "Made in Germany" from top-notch materials, compared to those made in cheaper countries, at much higher volumes, and from less expensive materials. Specifically, I find it hard to contain myself when people claim that the S2 *should* cost around $10000, barely more than a 1Ds3/D3x.

Ahh, that's clearer. Thanks.

I don't think it should be cheaper either, just not so expensive

I honestly believe that the price point is probably about 10% off the mark. I expect to pay more for Leica and routinely do.

Where I fall off the Choo-Choo is the staggering price for service protection ... not that they are alone in that, but jeeze that's a lot for something that doesn't yield a bit more IQ, handling, or anything. It's VERY expensive insurance, pure and simple.

If Leica backed the S2 with 3 year Pro level service, they would demonstrate confidence in the product and would ease early adopters concerns. That would place the risk for a bad product where it belongs ... on the makers shoulders not the buyer's.

Marc

 

[carstenw]

David, the answer is already above.

Marc, I cannot comment on the pro service package, because I have no knowledge at all in that area. However, the platinum package does include a replacement shutter, which could be applied at the photographer's discretion, right at the end of the service interval, as I understand it, and comes with a full checkup, so that part is not just insurance, but also product.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

How much extra would the pro service, cameras and lenses, cost for a typical pro system? Given the prices of the lenses in particular, would the price + pro service not pay for an entire duplicate system from one of the other manufacturers? I'm not a MF shooter but that is what I and every other pro I know would consider..

 

[LJL]

Carsten,
Not looking to continue a smoldering discussion of disagreements. That S2 Premium Service Package seems way out of line. The replacement shutter part is really the bigger joke in my mind, at least for a pro-level camera. I have had several Canon 1-series cameras where the shutter gave out at 200K or so actuations. I sent the bodies back to Canon. They replaced the shutters, did a complete CLA, and returned them to me within a week each....no charge. THAT is what professional service should be. Fact is, the shutter is a pretty low cost item on most of these cameras. I think the Canon shutters would have cost me a couple hundred bucks each tops.

As for the "Made in Germany" part to defend the costs.....sorry, that is becoming a tired and misplaced sentiment. There are plenty of places other than Germany that are turning out very high quality stuff with equally high quality parts, and for less cost. So if the high cost of Leica is attributable more to higher labor costs, that is a competitive issue they have to contend with. Just slapping on the "Made in Germany" label does not automatically make things "worth" more in the rest of the market, just costing more. Not bashing Leica, nor its products. Just trying to get away from some of the rather poor excuses to justify such a price tag on a new, untested camera with limited availability, unknown support, and unknowns with respect to how soon and how well the "system" will be developed, filled out and any improvements made. These are a lot of unknowns for a quite high entry price. It may prove to be worth it in the long run, but by then, there may be a lot of other things more worth it for less also.

LJ

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Lets put this to rest. This is a BRAND NEW P40+ I just picked up at the FedX office that Dave from CI sent me. Same P65 sensor. Now there is nothing worse than 1 pm sun in Arizona and it is 96 today. This is absolutely the worst conditions for blocking the shadows. I exposed directly for the sun , no averaging , no nothing in a version of C1. I have my slider for for shadow clipping set at ZERO and not one spec of blue warning even comes up at ALL. So when I hear blocked shadows than the bell alarm goes off. You can't match this **** light anywhere. I see detail in all shadow area's of this horrible image and to be honest I would never expose just for the sun anyway. I would let it blow slightly since the highlight recovery is a amazing tool and if I was on AV mode I guarantee it would have exposed it at LEAST a stop brighter. Frankly I have not seen anything better than the P65 and P40+ backs when it comes to this nasty nasty stuff

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Now same frame and here i am actually going to clip the shadows by 4 points and balance the tonal range from 0-255. Now I am really not even trying hard to get the shadows up a little but this would be a more normal exposure after a few minor corrections. I like a little punch so i actually have to add some black level clipping. This back and the P65 will be on the workshop for all attendees to use and process there files in the newest and latest C1. They can see for themselves these backs do not block up.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes i have a broken window a bird flew into it

 

[vieri]

Lets put this to rest. This is a BRAND NEW P40+ I just picked up at the FedX office that Dave from CI sent me. Same P65 sensor. Now there is nothing worse than 1 pm sun in Arizona and it is 96 today. This is absolutely the worst conditions for blocking the shadows. I exposed directly for the sun , no averaging , no nothing in a version of C1. I have my slider for for shadow clipping set at ZERO and not one spec of blue warning even comes up at ALL. So when I hear blocked shadows than the bell alarm goes off. You can't match this **** light anywhere. I see detail in all shadow area's of this horrible image and to be honest I would never expose just for the sun anyway. I would let it blow slightly since the highlight recovery is a amazing tool and if I was on AV mode I guarantee it would have exposed it at LEAST a stop brighter. Frankly I have not seen anything better than the P65 and P40+ backs when it comes to this nasty nasty stuff

Amazing sample Guy! The details in the shadow is :thumbs: thanks for sharing!

 

[carstenw]

Not looking to continue a smoldering discussion of disagreements. That S2 Premium Service Package seems way out of line. The replacement shutter part is really the bigger joke in my mind, at least for a pro-level camera. I have had several Canon 1-series cameras where the shutter gave out at 200K or so actuations.

That is very nice of Canon, but if a shutter goes beyond the stated number of actuations, I wouldn't normally expect the manufacturer to replace it for free. The S2's shutter is rated at 150000. For a pro with a high rate of shooting, this could be worth it. Leica shutters do not cost a couple of hundred dollars, btw, as I found out the hard way when my M8 shutter went south. I was able to salvage the situation by doing the upgrade, which I wanted to do anyway.

As for the "Made in Germany" part to defend the costs.....sorry, that is becoming a tired and misplaced sentiment. There are plenty of places other than Germany that are turning out very high quality stuff with equally high quality parts, and for less cost.

Sorry, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, but it is neither tired nor misplaced. There are two issues. First of all, Leica does work that no other company can do, possibly except Zeiss (also in Germany). At least, no other company does it. Secondly, protecting the local jobs is a strong move from Leica, and IMO, forward-looking. You see it already happening in the States, where price drives manufacturing to such an extent that the production is moving overseas, and even the ability to manufacture locally starts to disappear. The price will not stay low overseas forever, but once the manufacturing expertise disappears locally, it may not return. Look where the American camera industry is today. Are you happy about that? The relentless push for lower prices made that happen.

Now, I am not German, I just live here, but I do understand this type of decision, and I wish it would be made more often. I hate to see so much of the world's goods being manufactured in countries which do not protect the workers well, and which don't control the damage to the environment, like Germany does. I am perfectly willing to pay more, sometimes much more, to buy products from countries whose track-record I respect, but the choice is more and more just not there. I am astounded to see how much of what I buy is made in China, a country whose politics and economy I absolutely do not condone.

Leica cameras and lenses are made in Europe. Some parts are done in Portugal, where the labour is significantly cheaper than in Germany, but other parts need to be made in Germany, where the standards are very high, and the expertise is still present.

Think of it another way: a significant proportions of the best cameras and lenses ever made, throughout history, were designed and made in Germany. Do you really think this would ever have happened if only the designs were made here, and the manufacturing went to the cheapest bidder?

Anyway, this is getting off-topic.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Check this out this is pushing it to look normal just by pulling the shadow slider up but still keeping a 0-255 tonal range with just very slight clipping on either side. Obviously i could make it without but this looks like we added fill light to the scene. What is amazing is the elbow room in MF. Once you see this stuff you just can't walk away from it. MF is amazing stuff

 

[carstenw]

That looks almost like HDR photography!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Single shot I promise. Pretty amazing now not sure you would take it there normally but as you can see it can get there. This is WHY we all own MF gear or one darn good reason we do. BTW this was handheld with a 45D lens at F11 ISO 100

 

[bensonga]

Specifically, I find it hard to contain myself when people claim that the S2 *should* cost around $10000, barely more than a 1Ds3/D3x.

Not to belabor the point, but just to be clear....I did not say the S2 *should* be priced around $10,000. My point (also made in discussions before the S2 pricing was announced) is that if they had priced it in the $10-12,000 range (or even as much as $15,000) it could have been a "game changer" in the medium format digital market.....and Leica could have had a runaway best seller. Maybe they still will at $23k. Time will tell.

Re better materials etc.....I haven't heard many complaints about the poor materials and build quality of cameras like the 1Ds3/D3x. That's news to me.

Gary

 

[Jack]

P40 file is looking impressive! (But frankly, at least from a DR standpoint, not that different from your P30+ --- maybe 1/3 a stop in the shadows?)

Cheers,

 

[carstenw]

Not to belabor the point, but just to be clear....I did not say the S2 *should* be priced around $10,000. My point (also made in discussions before the S2 pricing was announced) is that if they had priced it in the $10-12,000 range (or even as much as $15,000) it could have been a "game changer" in the medium format digital market.....and Leica could have had a runaway best seller.

I wasn't specifically thinking of your post. Others have stated pretty clearly (not necessarily in this forum) that Leica is foolish for not pricing it at that level. How anyone can make statements like that without knowing what it cost to make one is beyond me.

I am sure that the S2 would be a runaway bestseller at $10-12k, but I am equally sure that it would put Leica out of business, with a heavy loss on every camera.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

P40 file is looking impressive! (But frankly, at least from a DR standpoint, not that different from your P30+ --- maybe 1/3 a stop in the shadows?)

Cheers,

I agree Jack from the Kodak sensors it's like a 1/3 or maybe a very very little bit more. It is not a night and day difference at all. Easily can get it there as well.

What impresses me more than anything is the elbow room in the files from MF and obviously I like C1 but you can't take a Phase file in LR or ACR and expect anything worth a damn. They are dumb files when they come in.

 

[Jack]

What impresses me more than anything is the elbow room in the files from MF and obviously I like C1 but you can't take a Phase file in LR or ACR and expect anything worth a damn.

Agreed. But recently I've been getting that same kind of flexibility from my Canon 1Ds3 files in C1!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Hi Guy
But that'll cost over a million bucks (straight out of profit). If they can sell all the cameras they can make (and judging by the M9, and their reported expectations of 1000 S2s a year that doesn't seem so unlikely).

All these arguments (which keep coming round) hinge around the assumption that they're going to be difficult to sell, I just don't believe it. But even if they ARE difficult to sell, surely the time to do this sort of thing (including the loss leader that LJL suggests) is when you have inventory you can't sell and when you've got over any teething troubles without a mass recall. Not when you're very unlikely to be able to keep up with demand!

As for giving pros cameras and asking them to report in public . . . I know you would report back Guy, but I also know from experience that some simply won't bother (and how do you force them?).

Jono they probably will sell to the hobbyist , more of my point is this is directed at Pro's and to get them to jump ship or buy up or whatever it is going to be the challenge. Than again we have to see where leica really wants to target for the hobbyist many things as Victor said won't matter much but some selling point will matter and the rest is a easy compromise to buy. That I agree with, it don't have to be perfect on everything. Now if they are going after the Pro's than they are going after a market they really never went after in a sense. So they have to change the plan and there strategy to get Pro's to jump. Sometimes it is hard to look at this from the outside but guy's like me are sitting in a different seat. Obviously ROI is important but than we have that whole list of stuff we been talking about that has to hit the check marks. So it is a different ball game they have to work in. But sure some hobbyist will jump all over this and not even look at the specs, no question about it.