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Thread: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

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    An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    The scenario: As I slide down the slippery slope toward retirement (forced early by the greedy thieves on wall street and the banking industry ... and admittedly, my reluctance at my age to shlep back out into the dog-eat-dog, back stabbing advertising world for new employment), I've been reformulating my gear strategy to continue work exclusively as a pro photographer until they plant me.

    The Problem: I have been very interested in the Leica S2 but balked at the specter of losing the abilities of my modular MF system ... as well as the S2 price ... "price" especially being a kill-joy when considering it as replacement for the Hassey H system which I would have to take a scalding bath on financially to sell.

    Possible solution: Stop thinking of the S2 as a replacement for the MFD system ... instead replace the extensive 35mm DSLR stuff which cost a fortune to continuously upgrade ... and which may be close to maxed out in terms of "how many pixels can sit on the head of a pen".

    Frankly, I really only need a three lens kit to do 95% of my paying work... wide, normal and telephoto. I don't need leaf shutter lenses on this kit if I kept the Hassey kit. Don't need macro or T/S either since the Hassey also already does that. With a bigger sensor and 37 meg there would be zero need to upgrade even if something like 30+ meg in 35mm did come along.

    (I'd probably keep a few select 35mm pieces as back up and leave it at that).

    One issue: how in the heck can I make this decision without having a real taste of how the S2 actually works? Can it function in the conditions I shoot in? How fast is it really? What is the 400 and 800 ISO really like?

    Any other maker can get one of their products into a pro's hands for evaluation ... Like Hassey did, like Leaf did ... but as far as I can see the S2 has to be purchased like a "pig in a poke", or I'd have to travel somewhere to even lay hands on one.

    Whatdaysthink?

    -Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 16th October 2009 at 02:57.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    It makes sense, and this is exactly the way I look upon the S2: An über DSLR with little or no need for upgrade for quite a number of years, at least if the system keeps its promises. What you do need to think about is:

    - You need to try it. You need to feel the ergonomics, to see what the photos look like with the camera in your hands etc., but you know all this. If you buy without trying, and although Leica keeps its value well, it may be an expensive bath.

    - You have to ask yourself how much you will use the Hasselblad if you buy the Leica. From a quality point of view, they are probably similar, and if that means the Hassy will remain unused, you lose money even if you don't sell it.

    - Are you really sure that you won't be tempted by new cameras and lenses in the future? So much so that you can't withstand the pressure? I'm sure there won't be any need for an upgrade in a long while, but there's also this thing called lust.

    But again: It makes sense to me. If I could afford to think that way, this is exactly what I would do.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    [B][SIZE="1"]
    Whatdaysthink?
    Marc, if I was in your situation - already having more than adequate and more than enough equipment to see me through until retirement - I would do nothing.

    I'd then use the small fortune I had saved to tour the world at leisure and make all those images I'd been meaning to make for the last 40+ years.

    Keith

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Marc, if I was in your situation - already having more than adequate and more than enough equipment to see me through until retirement - I would do nothing.

    I'd then use the small fortune I had saved to tour the world at leisure and make all those images I'd been meaning to make for the last 40+ years.

    Keith
    I second that - plus, IMHO the S2 path will make you lose a lot of flexibility, together with a lot of money. I posted on the forum here my path to digital MF & LF, I link to it not to take up too much HD space re-writing the same thing, but I thought it might be of some help.

    Good luck with whatever you decide!
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Marc,

    As much as I hate dealing with the sorry excuse that the airlines have become and the "security" issues involved I still believe that travel is a rather cheap part of the whole investment.

    Book a few days...see a couple of shows and spend two rigorous days evaluating the camera with Sam (?). Sneak into a couple of churches with poor light, have them waiting with Profoto or Hensel equipment to evaluate interfacing exposure and try some early morning light on the street. Then rerurn home with the files and crunch them everyway possible to see if they will hold up to real life use.

    All of the above will be about 3% of the total investment for the S2 in the long run.

    As time opens up for you ... personal time not spent capturing other persons moments of interest, I cannot imagine you spending it all with just a SLR compatible system. RF tilt/shift and lens/back movements will be sorely missed if you are out of the Hasselblad/MF back system...just because you know how valuable those would be in certain situations. In another 20 years a simple Leica M RF and the S2 will probably be enough...right now I doubt it.

    Good news about the S2 is that it is partially vaporware with regards to lens and peripherals...you have a limited range of choices at the present time...so acquisition costs will not be maxed out until 'later'. You can start with what is available and move into the lenses as they arrive.

    Final thought...the H2 system is fairly stable for a few years...H4D 60 will not be supplanted for a while. All of the 35 DSLR systems are undergoing major flux changes and will either keep you on the upgrade path or your present equipment will be overshadowed rather quickly. These days money spent is not money saved but the good news is that neither of us will need it 50 years down the road!

    Cannot wait to see how this pans out...I always feel better living vicariously.

    Regards,

    Bob

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    You're going to keep your M9 though aren't you Marc?

    I can see what others are saying, if you've got kit that works for any application you could forsee coming up in your work, if that kit is well broken in and paid for, why do anything, why ever upgrade again?

    We hit the point of diminishing returns in equipment already years back. There really isn't that much more that it's worth upgrading for given our own personal and our clients requirements.

    For example, why would you need that H4D-60 that you're drooling over at the moment? Would it bring more income after it had paid for itself compared to what you have? Is it going to provide you with that much better a shooting experience that it's worth it for your own peace of mind and sanity?

    As a 35mm body, with those 3 primes that you need, is the S2 going to be a) easier b) that much better c) more versatile d) affordable e) bring in more revenue, etc, etc than your D3X or M9? If all you need is a simple 35mm camera with a 3 lens setup, why not just stick to either of the above and save far more money?
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Marc, in spite of continually being branded a fanboy w.r.t. Leica, I would strongly recommend waiting. Wait until the camera is out, wait until all the lenses you for sure want are out, wait until the lenses you might want are out, and then go try it out. Once you have tried it out, and you are in a buy/stay position, you can then evaluate if the IQ is worth the cost, or if the handleability or dual FP/LS shutter is worth it, and so on.

    I am sure, being the fanboy and all, that the IQ will more than match the competition. However, I am equally sure that the difference will be in the range where most customers won't see the difference.

    In the end, it might make sense to get an S2, if you could keep your Hasselblad back for technical camera duty, and sell all the rest of your MF and 35mm gear, but that is a tall order, and only you will be able to tell if it is able to do this, for your work.
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I can't help but be envious of your dilemma. At the same time, congratulations on finding yourself in such an "uncomfortable" position.

    My own opinion is that while the question is a good one, and the plan might make sense, I don't think it needs to be an urgent decision. You are well covered with some fine equipment already. Biding your time for another 6 months and watching the S2's performance from the sidelines seems entirely appropriate with only your "want it now" impulse gene being effected.

    Beyond that, the only question I have is whether you are prepared to buy two S2 bodies along with the lenses. Quite an investment when all is said and done.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The scenario: As I slide down the slippery slope toward retirement (forced early by the greedy thieves on wall street and the banking industry ... and admittedly, my reluctance at my age to shlep back out into the dog-eat-dog, back stabbing advertising world for new employment), I've been reformulating my gear strategy to continue work exclusively as a pro photographer until they plant me.

    The Problem: I have been very interested in the Leica S2 but balked at the specter of losing the abilities of my modular MF system ... as well as the S2 price ... "price" especially being a kill-joy when considering it as replacement for the Hassey H system which I would have to take a scalding bath on financially to sell.

    Possible solution: Stop thinking of the S2 as a replacement for the MFD system ... instead replace the extensive 35mm DSLR stuff which cost a fortune to continuously upgrade ... and which may be close to maxed out in terms of "how many pixels can sit on the head of a pen".

    Frankly, I really only need a three lens kit to do 95% of my paying work... wide, normal and telephoto. I don't need leaf shutter lenses on this kit if I kept the Hassey kit. Don't need macro or T/S either since the Hassey also already does that. With a bigger sensor and 37 meg there would be zero need to upgrade even if something like 30+ meg in 35mm did come along.

    (I'd probably keep a few select 35mm pieces as back up and leave it at that).

    One issue: how in the heck can I make this decision without having a real taste of how the S2 actually works? Can it function in the conditions I shoot in? How fast is it really? What is the 400 and 800 ISO really like?

    Any other maker can get one of their products into a pro's hands for evaluation ... Like Hassey did, like Leaf did ... but as far as I can see the S2 has to be purchased like a "pig in a poke", or I'd have to travel somewhere to even lay hands on one.

    Whatdaysthink?

    -Marc
    Time for my intervention. Your thinking is not even a thought until January so for now be happy and seriously do you really need to spend the money and lose your shirt in the process. You know I am sitting here not only in the same boat but we are sharing the chair no less. Marc Until it is fully out in all products and it gets in hands of REAL users of MF gear already and you are getting some good vibes than start thinking. Lets be really freaking honest here any 35mm shooter testing , trying or even looking at this will be a wet dream come true because it will kick all there butts . The real questions and comparable will be guys like us that shoot everyday with MF know all the ins and outs and know what to be looking for in the files and against what they have today. This is Pro to Pro talk it ain't worth squat until it is blowing our doors off. Also lets say it is better than the P40/ H50 question comes in how much better and at what costs does it start making sense and is it real or is it something our commercial clients won't even notice. Yes i get the appeal of 35mm handling trust me I'm wetting over it too but I'm also looking at a minimum of 25k out of MY pocket. Now bud it's not always about the money and we both know that but given our age and what has been going on in the market , less work, less paying work that is there and sinking banking accounts than we both have stupid thoughts. Yea i know i would like it just as bad myself. But when Leica gets one in my hands which they said they would do for sure to test it out just like i have with the DMR, M8, M9 and now this than we will have a better idea along with some other reports but this needs to get in the hands of people that count. Sure the hobbyist with money will support it and that's great for Leica. But their are so many after purchase stuff that WE have to think about and if you get past the initial purchase what becomes important is stuff like Backup, repair, accessories and the one NO ONE is even thinking about is long term sales in the S2. I say this simply because their are a lot of R users scratching there heads right now.

    Now i am not being down on Leica far from it. I love there products and good friends with management and they even support our workshops . That stuff is not even a thought but long term investment, service, repair and all the parts that go into it are just unknown right now and for a Pro that part many questions arise. Yes Leica had some issues but in the end they always seemed to come through but now we are certainly on a different time table for working Pro's stuff can't sit in a repair shop collecting dust and they do know this no doubt and I have talked to themas well on some of these things. What Leica has done is basically go from a hobbyist market ( although many Pros shoot the M) to the levels of Hassy and Phase along with Sinar and leaf to support a working Pro camera and needs. Now there is no real track record here and we know Leica will always try to do the right thing for us. The issue is this is the first real Pro system and none of us has a crystal ball either. Also to be truthful i am so turned off by sales pitches that it is the next coming of Christ. Like any MF system they will sell themselves to the needs of the working Pro we know what is out there and what to look for. Obviously we know what Hassy is and what it can and can't do as well as Phase that we can make good decisions on it.

    Obviously this is not a cheap investment and the time waiting for answers and time spent in the real field of play is very important to us. Let's just look at current systems and there history and time table to get to this point today . Obviously it was not overnight and to me as much as I want this system I have to wait it out and i told Leica exactly this is to be patient because most Pro's are going to wait until it is a real system on the streets and not on paper but more important it needs to work and have the long term support to go with it. Too me personally it is 6 months from now or around 1st quarter next year. First I don't have the money because of this economy and if it don't pick up to the levels my clients are calling me as much as they did in the past that I am sitting on my buy hands. Obviously we are seriously already getting it done today and what does this really bring us at the end of the day. Okay some joy for sure and some better handling which maybe one big reason we are even looking at it. Honestly it's to early for me to get serious but certainly on my radar and i won't know until I can test it and see it's value not only to me but my business as well.

    Now i hope that was not a kill joy but it is reality and i am excited about this as much as you but I have my check marks it needs to hit before I get serious about it and no product brochure , banner waving signs or claims the best thing since the coming of Christ will convince any Pro. Honestly that stuff to me is more a turn off than anything else and have a real hard time digesting it.
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Lots of good sound advice so far. Remember, this is just an exploratory thread seeking different perspectives.

    Let me clarify a few things.

    I am retiring from my advertising career, NOT my photographic career which I'll do until I can't.

    If I got an S2 (eventually), it would NOT be a replacement for the H system which is way more versatile for studio work. That H kit is pretty complete including a Rollei Xact 2 and lenses for all tech needs. The whole thing is also bought and paid for. Done. I would NOT upgrade to a 60 meg H4D if I got the S2 ($$$$$$) ... at least not until it is discounted because it's been super-ceded by the H5D/100

    The S2 would replace all the Nikon and some Sony 35mm DSLR stuff except a few key pieces. I'd probably keep a select Sony kit for the Zeiss optics ... that kit is done and paid for. Much as I love it, I'd probably sell the Nikon system entirely. Which is WHY I'd need to try the S2 before buying .... to make sure it CAN replace this stuff the way I use it.

    No back up S2 needed ... the Sony is what I would use as back-up to the S2 for the location applications I'd use the S2 for ... or for more demanding commercial jobs use the S2 to back up the H3D-II39.

    Ben, I understand exactly what you are saying, however, once you use a medium format digital camera it's hard to be satisfied by anything 35mm ... except maybe the M9 ... fan boy alert! The Leica M kit is here to stay now that it's FF. I only have one or two other lenses I'm considering, but even those are not essential at all. For all intents and purposes that kit is bought and paid for ... and now done.

    Guy, as usual great cautionary input. Here's the rub IMO ... service, and the extraordinary $ premium Leica has put on in-depth after-sale service. We both know how essential this is to working stiffs ... especially with all the previous recent history, turmoil and possible future unknowns. It actually makes me wonder about their confidence in the S2 product. It would have been way smarter to include a 3 year Pro service package with the camera ... at least for the first year to get the camera off the ground.

    BTW, all this would be funded by sales of my Hasselblad V gear and CFV-II which I've already begun doing. Add the Nikon stuff and I'm there with little or no additional funding. Life wouldn't alter a bit.

    I know this is high flautin' subject matter here, and I feel very lucky that I could build such an extensive array of gear over the years ... but as a pal once said to justify it all ... it's what we do ... photography ... for a living, for creative outlet, and for personal fun. I don't have a home in the Canary Islands, a penthouse in NYC, or a beach house in Malibu. I no longer spend money on Porches and triple strands of Mikimoto pearls for even faster women.

    Keep the thoughts coming ... it doesn't cost any of us a penny to speculate, and at the very least it's entertaining on a slow, gloomy day

    -Marc

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The scenario: One issue: how in the heck can I make this decision without having a real taste of how the S2 actually works? Can it function in the conditions I shoot in? How fast is it really? What is the 400 and 800 ISO really like?

    Any other maker can get one of their products into a pro's hands for evaluation ... Like Hassey did, like Leaf did ... but as far as I can see the S2 has to be purchased like a "pig in a poke", or I'd have to travel somewhere to even lay hands on one.

    Whatdaysthink?

    -Marc
    Marc:

    You buy enough Leica gear to just ask your dealer to have the Leica Rep bring him a S2 to loan you for a few days. This may not be possible in the really early days that the camera is shipping, as the Rep may have only one demo and would need that to show his dealers. Once it is out for a few months you should be able to borrow one.


    Robert

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Leica dealers have to have hope I got this right 1 on the shelf and 1 demo at least that is what I remember what Leica told me. I think that is the minimum
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Marc:

    You buy enough Leica gear to just ask your dealer to have the Leica Rep bring him a S2 to loan you for a few days. This may not be possible in the really early days that the camera is shipping, as the Rep may have only one demo and would need that to show his dealers. Once it is out for a few months you should be able to borrow one.


    Robert
    Yeah, we are going to try that ... but I'm not holding my breath. I got to test the 0.95 Nocti only because my dealer ordered it for his inventory ... he's the one that let me try it first before committing to a purchase. Not gonna happen with a S2 and a set of S2 lenses.

    -Marc

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Lots of good sound advice so far. Remember, this is just an exploratory thread seeking different perspectives.

    Let me clarify a few things.

    I am retiring from my advertising career, NOT my photographic career which I'll do until I can't.

    If I got an S2 (eventually), it would NOT be a replacement for the H system which is way more versatile for studio work. That H kit is pretty complete including a Rollei Xact 2 and lenses for all tech needs. The whole thing is also bought and paid for. Done. I would NOT upgrade to a 60 meg H4D if I got the S2 ($$$$$$) ... at least not until it is discounted because it's been super-ceded by the H5D/100

    The S2 would replace all the Nikon and some Sony 35mm DSLR stuff except a few key pieces. I'd probably keep a select Sony kit for the Zeiss optics ... that kit is done and paid for. Much as I love it, I'd probably sell the Nikon system entirely. Which is WHY I'd need to try the S2 before buying .... to make sure it CAN replace this stuff the way I use it.

    No back up S2 needed ... the Sony is what I would use as back-up to the S2 for the location applications I'd use the S2 for ... or for more demanding commercial jobs use the S2 to back up the H3D-II39.

    Ben, I understand exactly what you are saying, however, once you use a medium format digital camera it's hard to be satisfied by anything 35mm ... except maybe the M9 ... fan boy alert! The Leica M kit is here to stay now that it's FF. I only have one or two other lenses I'm considering, but even those are not essential at all. For all intents and purposes that kit is bought and paid for ... and now done.

    Guy, as usual great cautionary input. Here's the rub IMO ... service, and the extraordinary $ premium Leica has put on in-depth after-sale service. We both know how essential this is to working stiffs ... especially with all the previous recent history, turmoil and possible future unknowns. It actually makes me wonder about their confidence in the S2 product. It would have been way smarter to include a 3 year Pro service package with the camera ... at least for the first year to get the camera off the ground.

    BTW, all this would be funded by sales of my Hasselblad V gear and CFV-II which I've already begun doing. Add the Nikon stuff and I'm there with little or no additional funding. Life wouldn't alter a bit.

    I know this is high flautin' subject matter here, and I feel very lucky that I could build such an extensive array of gear over the years ... but as a pal once said to justify it all ... it's what we do ... photography ... for a living, for creative outlet, and for personal fun. I don't have a home in the Canary Islands, a penthouse in NYC, or a beach house in Malibu. I no longer spend money on Porches and triple strands of Mikimoto pearls for even faster women.

    Keep the thoughts coming ... it doesn't cost any of us a penny to speculate, and at the very least it's entertaining on a slow, gloomy day

    -Marc
    I think you will find that the h3d will doing the "backing-up" to the S2 for non studio/xact2 shoots. Personally I feel the S2 is a pleasure to hold, view through and shoot. I see 2 main cameras for me a studio camera, the xact2 and the S2..everything else is backup. I have already sold off my medium format slr stuff. You should go to the photo expo thing next week in nyc and see the S2 production model.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Marc - the one thing you already know the S2 will most likely not do is deliver the high ISO like the Nikon does which is why you have the Nikon in addition to the Sony. With the M9, you have picked up a little ground here over the M8 so, as you pointed out, one question is where does the S2 max out for YOU in this regard and then can the M9 and Sony handle the rest? For the wedding work, the backup shooter will be there with the Canon but what happens if you are solo?

    Another point. Given time there should be enough versatility in the S2 lens lineup but what we need to see is the character of the lenses and if there is some variety there if that is something you desire. There is in the M line. It's there in the R as well (character of the 35, 50, or 80 LUX vs the 35, 50 or 90 Cron, for example). So, what's the "look" of the S lenses and is that what you want for your work. As another fanboy I am already convinced without seeing but we all know we need to wait and see.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Marc,
    I would have to say that after handling the S2 and doing some shooting with a pre production sample at the LHSA meeting in Seattle that
    1. The camera has a super quiet shutter and no mirror bounce, great for hand held shooting. The balance in the hand is better than the H3DII, less strain on the wrist. The size is about the same as a Nikon D3.
    2. Autofocus, fast with low light and bright light.
    3. After evaluating David Farkas's images (about 500 of them) that he shot in Weztlar on his computer, am blown away by the image quality. No moire could be seen on the fabric on the model, highlights look like highlights, not little diamonds on the skin - in other words looks like super sharp film images.
    4. Price - well an H4D/50 with lens will go for ~$32,000? the S2 with platinum service about the same. Yes, it is a big chunk, and no legacy glass to buy and keep the costs down.
    5. Think about this, "If I could build the best system . . . " From the start, the S2 was built without having to apologize to any legacy users. So the lens and sensors were designed as an optical unit. Yes, they got a lot of flack from R users but this was not the solution for the R. It would be like Nikon or Canon coming out with a whole new line in order to compete on this scale. A result of this is an optical chain that can out resolve the sensor with no moire on fine fabrics. David and I pixel peeped to death those images and could not see any moire on fabrics, chicken wire on a bell tower - believe me we spent hours going over them.
    6. I am currently rethinking if I too should reduce my systems to just the S2 and X1 and moving away from the M8, Nikon and Hassey CFV. I mainly shoot with the 28 (35mm equiv.) on the M8 and do still life work with the CFV. The 70mm lens on the S2 focuses really close, covering a 4"x6" area at the nearest distance. They also have a macro 120 if you need 1:1 and knowing how Leica thinks, will be ubber corrected for close focus aberrations as opposed to the 70 but you need to be the judge on that.
    7. Service is what it comes down to, Leica is setting up pro dealers to service the needs in case of failure and provide a loaner if needed. They are trying to do it right and only time will tell if they succeed.

    Most of all you need to handle it, Photo East will be in NYC next week and they will be showing it there. Don't know if they will have any production samples for users to evaluate aside form the pre production ones out now.

    -Al
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Marc,
    I would be one of the last folks to ever try to offer a strategy for you, but since you asked...... ;-) Right now....do nothing. You have all the gear you need to more than cover most shooting situations you may want to engage in. The S2 sounds sexy as hell on paper, and from what the few folks who have actually had it in hand for more than 30 seconds report. Great. It is not yet out. It is nowhere near being a complete enough system at this point, nor will it for several months or more to come. I holds tremendous potential, maybe even as the main camera, not back-up for the the Hassy. Until you know what you really plan to be shooting, trying to buy in advance is really hard to figure. I am struggling along similar lines myself. I do not think I want to keep shooting action/sports type of things, BUT....I enjoy it and keep having folks ask me to cover things for them, so I cannot abandon the teles and fast 35mm gear.....yet. I would love to be shooting more studio/product stuff, and could use a more tricked out MF kit for that, BUT.....not sure if that will have enough legs under it to keep me working as I shift toward it. I gave up weddings long, long ago, BUT....I keep getting asked to do them and sometimes it is hard to avoid the nicer pay. Bottom line, as long as you are an eclectic photographer, which many of us are, it is hard to have just one perfect collection of pieces to cover all needs, both subject and your own artistic demands.

    Right now, your Hassy stuff has tons of bases covered in and out of studio. The M9 kit has many bases covered for fun/travel/art/quality shooting as well, but in its own limited way. A 35mm kit can better handle a wider variety of potential shooting situations, but maybe not delivering some things you really would like from your more artistic needs.....e.g., image file quality. Any and all of that could change. The point being that what you have now is paid for, does the job, is not going to be dated or obsolete for several more years to come. Why ditch or buy stuff now when there really is no firm direction known for your needs and wishes? You may just find that the Hassy stuff, though very capable to do almost everything, is just more than you will want to keep using for your personal directions. Same could be true for the 35mm stuff. You may find something like the S2 very capable, but maybe not flexible enough. Personally, I have even started to think how I might direct/align my business more around what I could get done with just an S2 kit. (I stopped that dreaming when the prices came out and since there is nothing to really convince me either way that the S2 walks above water yet, if you know what I mean.)

    So, my thoughts are for you to just keep using what you have and are intimately familiar with, taking the time when possible to try some of the newer stuff when available, either as longer test drives or rentals for a bit. You have no pressing needs, other than self-generated at this point, so no harm in waiting to see how things come along and change in the next several months to a year. You may stop the heavier commercial shooting, and find that your wants and needs could be met with the M9 alone, or maybe the S2 system. Your studio shooting could become less attractive and you no longer need a big MF rig. You may decide that you really would rather do landscape/fine art shooting and then the Hassy kit may be the only thing that floats your boat. No need to decide the direction just yet.

    LJ

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Tough nugget that, trying to figure out the optimal, most efficient, best image quality, best usability combination kit of camera gear...

    I am in the camp of not doing anything immediately. First off, you already have an entire spread of not only high-end gear, but frankly state of the art gear in every category; MF, DSLR, RF. All a change will do at this time is cost you money.

    The single S2 efficiency gain I could see for you would be *IF* the S2 kit of choice (and we both know you'll NEVER be satisfied with just 3 lenses) could completely replace both your current DSLR and MF systems. However, even if it does -- which I seriously doubt it will -- you are trading dollars to end up exchanging a very versatile and somewhat extensive 2-system kit for a three to five lens minimalist kit. Then what do you do when/if it breaks? Oh that's right, with 4 or more lenses, you'll want that second S2 body too

    Nope, IMO logic dictates you wait and see how good it really is and how well it really suits your style and gear needs before making that kind of very costly switch.

    Sorry, but my .02...
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Tough nugget that, trying to figure out the optimal, most efficient, best image quality, best usability combination kit of camera gear...

    I am in the camp of not doing anything immediately. First off, you already have an entire spread of not only high-end gear, but frankly state of the art gear in every category; MF, DSLR, RF. All a change will do at this time is cost you money.

    The single S2 efficiency gain I could see for you would be *IF* the S2 kit of choice (and we both know you'll NEVER be satisfied with just 3 lenses) could completely replace both your current DSLR and MF systems. However, even if it does -- which I seriously doubt it will -- you are trading dollars to end up exchanging a very versatile and somewhat extensive 2-system kit for a three to five lens minimalist kit. Then what do you do when/if it breaks? Oh that's right, with 4 or more lenses, you'll want that second S2 body too

    Nope, IMO logic dictates you wait and see how good it really is and how well it really suits your style and gear needs before making that kind of very costly switch.

    Sorry, but my .02...
    Nothing to be sorry about Jack ... I'm not doing anything right away anyway. Just selling off redundant and less used gear as the business climate has shifted for me so dramatically. It'll just sit in a "war chest" waiting until all the data is clear.

    The main competitor to this strategy is to avail myself of the Hasselblad trade in program for the H4D/60 ... which is a LOT less money ... gear sales have pretty much covered that cost already, and is sitting in the bank waiting patiently for me to make up my mind

    Thanks,

    -Marc

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I have to agree with Al after seeing David F's images in Seattle. We looked at hundreds of S2 images and some P65+ images shot under ideal circumstances and I have to say that I have never in my life seen better digital files than I saw from the S2. It was head and shoulders above the P65+ in detail and clarity. I felt as if I was looking at 4x5 drum scans. I can't stand up for Leica's pricing, or the pricing of any MF digital for that matter unless you can recover the cost in a few assignments, but if you need absolutely the best image quality for very large prints, I don't know of any better system at any price than the S2. Period.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    It was head and shoulders above the P65+ in detail and clarity.
    Brad, I have no doubt the S2 IQ is and will be excellent when the public camera is finally released. However I'd be careful about placing too much stock in that comparison with the P65+ just yet as lots of variables can affect how an image looks -- so with that in mind, I ask these questions:

    Who did the P65+ processing?

    How did they do it and what conversion software did they use?

    Next, what camera and lens was used for the P65+ shot?

    Were both images of identical subjects taken in identical lighting from shooting positions that rendered equivalent image compositions and image magnifications?

    Also, there are a few C1 processing surprises waiting for you to see in Oregon
    Jack
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Marc - technically speaking, what do you expect the S2 to do that your other equipment currently cannot do?

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Bottom line until I process the raw files myself , I trust no one. Sorry that sounds mean and not very nice but unless i see it on my own it's my hard earned money going out there and nothing is going to make me believe anything until it is in my hands and I flat out told leica the same thing and they know that. They completely understand my concerns about that. Even if it is how much is it worth. I do this everyday for 33 years and been shooting digital since 1990 and I am considered a expert and teach raw processing. That is not a pat on the back that is fact. Truthfully there are only 3 people I trust more than myself and they are all on the workshop. Not that there are not experts out there but my point being is it's my money and my judgement call. Nice to hear about it but I need to see it and no offense to anyone . I just been doing this so long that I have grown very skeptical of claims that I have not done myself. Just had to be said
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    David Farkas did the shots. I think he used C1 for the P65+ and Lightroom with no profile for the S2! They were not identical shots. The P65+ was shot on a tripod, all the S2 shots were handheld. I don't know what cam/lens was used for the P65+. David said that the P65+ shot was one of Phase's "reference" shots for great image quality. You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear - both shots were outdoors in similar lighting with similar field of view and subject distances. I know there are a lot of variables, but I think David's pretty good at both systems. I know, it sounds like heresy to say such glowing things about a beta camera, but I am haunted by the incredible IQ of what I saw in the S2.

    Can't wait to learn more in OR

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bottom line until I process the raw files myself , I trust no one. Sorry that sounds mean and not very nice but unless i see it on my own it's my hard earned money going out there and nothing is going to make me believe anything until it is in my hands and I flat out told leica the same thing and they know that. They completely understand my concerns about that. Even if it is how much is it worth. I do this everyday for 33 years and been shooting digital since 1990 and I am considered a expert and teach raw processing. That is not a pat on the back that is fact. Truthfully there are only 3 people I trust more than myself and they are all on the workshop. Not that there are not experts out there but my point being is it's my money and my judgement call. Nice to hear about it but I need to see it and no offense to anyone . I just been doing this so long that I have grown very skeptical of claims that I have not done myself. Just had to be said
    Second that. Wiser words were never spoken I have been using digital now for about 5 years and though I am not into this digi-madness as long as Guy I can say that I have seen too many friends & colleagues going belly up by putting loads of cash into something they didn't tested or tried directly, just to find out that it wasn't for them - but then it was too late, money was lost in big amounts and someone even did go out of business eventually to follow what was supposed to be the latest & greatest; which sometimes it might have been but not what they needed. Add that to the costs of jumping ship every time that manufacturer B comes out with something better just to jump back to manufacturer A when they release the next model, buying & selling lenses accessories etc and what you get is not a pretty picture.

    Bottom line for me is one has to do their homework first to find out what is the best tool to do the job at hand, then to get the tool that gets closest to perfect for the task, then learn how to get the best out of it, then - if they need more - just stick to the chosen manufacturer upgrade path assuming there is one (which is something that must go into the choosing process in the first place).

    Just my .02...
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Exactly Vieri I say that for this reason I get way to many e-mails and PM's saying they screwed up and bought the wrong system. God does my heart sink when I hear that. Too much money here to be playing games. Seriously folks not trying to judge anyone or anything but there is just a lot of risk in MF and you need to do the homework and try this stuff. I know i say that almost on a daily basis but I firmly believe in this. This is above the threshold of buying a NikonD700 and turning it a week later because you don't like it . So you may lose a hundred bucks but MF that could be 10k in a week. That is dangerous
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Exactly Vieri I say that for this reason I get way to many e-mails and PM's saying they screwed up and bought the wrong system. God does my heart sink when I hear that. Too much money here to be playing games. Seriously folks not trying to judge anyone or anything but there is just a lot of risk in MF and you need to do the homework and try this stuff. I know i say that almost on a daily basis but I firmly believe in this. This is above the threshold of buying a NikonD700 and turning it a week later because you don't like it . So you may lose a hundred bucks but MF that could be 10k in a week. That is dangerous
    words of wisdom Guy.
    Remember,the moment you buy a MFDB system the value of it plummets at least 5k.
    With a DSLR you could probably sell it off for a few hundred bucks loss only

    Don't trust anything MFDB promises till you've played with it a few times.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Hi Marc
    it sounds like the sort of argument I use when I want something badly. I also often present the argument to other people so that they can agree that I'm right.

    I always win in the end

    On a more serious note, if the S2 does what it says on the tin, I would have thought it would be a fantastic choice.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    Marc - technically speaking, what do you expect the S2 to do that your other equipment currently cannot do?
    Best question yet.

    Provide the handling, ergonomics and close to the speed of a 35mm DSLR, with the image quality and file size of a MFD.

    Which is why I need to try the camera before buying anything. And not in some dealer's environment, but in one like I shoot in.

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Exactly Vieri I say that for this reason I get way to many e-mails and PM's saying they screwed up and bought the wrong system. God does my heart sink when I hear that. Too much money here to be playing games. Seriously folks not trying to judge anyone or anything but there is just a lot of risk in MF and you need to do the homework and try this stuff. I know i say that almost on a daily basis but I firmly believe in this. This is above the threshold of buying a NikonD700 and turning it a week later because you don't like it . So you may lose a hundred bucks but MF that could be 10k in a week. That is dangerous
    Indeed - the entrance ticket to MF is way high to be able to make mistakes (unless one is very rich, and even then). To me, Hasselblad & Phase both do the job when it comes to deliver the files, and I am pretty sure the S2 will deliver as well; however, when it comes to future-proofness & to flexibility (use with view cameras, for one, completeness of the system or its openness for another), then the number of players in the game drastically reduce. View camera for me is big part of the deal, because is a great way to put your (expensive) back to a good use and thus to maximize ROI once you got one by a relative small ulterior investment: this is why I do mention this often. Considering that the price of a Phase system with say three lenses AND a view camera + optical bench with say three lenses is cheaper than a S2 with three lenses gives one food for thought; as well, considering the availability today of lenses & accessories for the S2 vs Phase or Hassy is something else of interest IMHO. Not saying that the S2 is not going to be great, nor that it will never be a complete system: just saying that today both these claims are very theoretical, and while at least someone has seen files from the S2 and can vouch for the first, the second is really very much up in the air... No matter what one likes and which direction one decides to go, these are all things to be kept well in mind.

    Once more, just my .02...
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Exactly Vieri I say that for this reason I get way to many e-mails and PM's saying they screwed up and bought the wrong system. God does my heart sink when I hear that. Too much money here to be playing games. Seriously folks not trying to judge anyone or anything but there is just a lot of risk in MF and you need to do the homework and try this stuff. I know i say that almost on a daily basis but I firmly believe in this. This is above the threshold of buying a NikonD700 and turning it a week later because you don't like it . So you may lose a hundred bucks but MF that could be 10k in a week. That is dangerous
    Can't agree more with you Guy. I spent a good 2 years researching/waiting for the right product/price point before I bought. Also I found that it is important to make sure the software you are going to use is good.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    The P65+ was shot on a tripod, all the S2 shots were handheld. I don't know what cam/lens was used for the P65+. David said that the P65+ shot was one of Phase's "reference" shots for great image quality. You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear - both shots were outdoors in similar lighting with similar field of view and subject distances.
    Okay, now you are haunting me! I was expecting the S2 to be good, very good, better even than the 39/40MP backs, but I was not expecting to hear this. My Sinar back doesn't block up the shadows, but if I boost the black level even 1 or 2 points, it does sometimes block up, so the output is just so finely tuned and leaves little leeway in some situations. I would love a camera with a little more leeway there, but then again, I cannot trade in a €5000 back for a €20000 camera
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    The P65 I never seen block up and actually I have to add some black. The P65 is rated at 12.5 stops and the S2 at 12 stops so right there is a question mark and I will say Phase is pretty accurate with that number . The 40 and 65 do have more DR than my P30 and the P45 with the Kodak 6.8 micron size and the 6 micron is better in this area, so it does make you wonder about that. At least for me it does because i can see the difference between the P40 and P30 which I am sitting here waiting on the P40 right now to take up to the workshop. Now would be a nice time for a S2 in my hands also. Not to say Leica did not try and get one in my hands, they did but Photoplus and a few more events at the same time made it tough to do. Just seems funny to hear the P65 blocked up. That back will be on the workshop as well
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Okay, now you are haunting me! I was expecting the S2 to be good, very good, better even than the 39/40MP backs, but I was not expecting to hear this. My Sinar back doesn't block up the shadows, but if I boost the black level even 1 or 2 points, it does sometimes block up, so the output is just so finely tuned and leaves little leeway in some situations. I would love a camera with a little more leeway there, but then again, I cannot trade in a €5000 back for a €20000 camera
    Hi Carsten
    If it's good . . .I'm sure you'll get there (unfortunately I really won't )

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Marc,
    Is there a cutoff date on the trade-in deal option with the H3DII-39 to H4D-60 that you are worrying about? If there is, you could still probably do the deal with Hassy to extract as much as you could from the H3DII-39, start shooting the H4D-60 for a bit while you also get a chance to test drive the S2 for comparison purposes. If the S2 winds up floating your boat (small yacht), you could still more than likely be able to sell the H4D-60 and lenses at a decent price to help cover the S2 system as it continues to develop. Do not think you would be losing that much if anything at that point, while getting a much better idea of any S2 issues, service, handling, lens performance, etc., etc. Regardless of what folks say, the S2 is a very big leap, and it would simply be wise to let it come to market, work out the bugs, and get some idea of its promise before sinking a huge nut into it untried and untested for YOUR needs. Just one more stick of fuel onto your growing fire ;-)

    LJ

    P.S. Oops....went back to your other posts....you are NOT planning on having the S2 replace the Hassy stuff, as you still want the other capabilities with the removable back, as you say. I was thinking that the S2 system may replace the Hassy and any 35mm stuff you might be shooting. Not quite the blanket capabilities you have available now, but probably hitting 85-90% of needs. That remaining percentage could always be covered with rental, if you really had to go that way.
    Last edited by LJL; 16th October 2009 at 12:40.

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    David Farkas did the shots. I think he used C1 for the P65+ and Lightroom with no profile for the S2! They were not identical shots. The P65+ was shot on a tripod, all the S2 shots were handheld. I don't know what cam/lens was used for the P65+. David said that the P65+ shot was one of Phase's "reference" shots for great image quality. You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear - both shots were outdoors in similar lighting with similar field of view and subject distances. I know there are a lot of variables, but I think David's pretty good at both systems. I know, it sounds like heresy to say such glowing things about a beta camera, but I am haunted by the incredible IQ of what I saw in the S2.

    Can't wait to learn more in OR
    Brad,

    Actually, the P65+ shot I showed you was a sample from Capture Integration's website, shot in the alley behind their store in Atlanta with a Cambo RS and Schneider Digitar lens, on a tripod. The file is available here for download: http://www.captureintegration.com/do...lus_10fall.zip. I consider CI to be a trustworthy and competent source for P1 shooting and processing.

    I do plan on doing my own controlled, side-by-side tests. I will be shooting the S2 against the Hy6/LV75s, H3DII-39, H3DII-50, and P45+. I'm still looking for more cameras and am especially interested in P40+ and P65+. If anyone would like to volunteer their cameras, I'd love to have you involved in the shoot.

    But, I think as you and Al saw in Seattle, we are not talking about one great shot on a tripod, stopped down, etc. The image quality extends over hundreds of pictures, almost entirely shot hand-held (and all with AF).

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Carsten
    If it's good . . .I'm sure you'll get there (unfortunately I really won't )
    Why will I and you won't? You are the one hanging out in Crete and all. I am sure I will have it one day, if I prioritize that way, which it is not sure at all that I will do, but maybe by the time I can afford that kind of expense, it will be called an S5, and Leica will be fighting a lawsuit from Fujifilm. First I need to move to a larger apartment, pay off 2-3 loans, and have a more secure job, and more money in the bank. I probably should also stop being a programmer and start being a dentist Alternatively I will get my mum to knit me a ski mask, a-la Guy.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Why will I and you won't? You are the one hanging out in Crete and all. I am sure I will have it one day, if I prioritize that way, which it is not sure at all that I will do, but maybe by the time I can afford that kind of expense, it will be called an S5, and Leica will be fighting a lawsuit from Fujifilm. First I need to move to a larger apartment, pay off 2-3 loans, and have a more secure job, and more money in the bank. I probably should also stop being a programmer and start being a dentist
    Ah - well, the reason I won't is twofold:
    1. I can't afford it
    2. I wouldn't make the most of it

    As for hanging out in Crete, our hotel bill for 2 for 2 weeks was €550 (we don't do it in 5 star hotels )

    I guess my job is secure (but is the company? )

    Maybe I could be a dentist too

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Best question yet.

    Provide the handling, ergonomics and close to the speed of a 35mm DSLR, with the image quality and file size of a MFD.

    Which is why I need to try the camera before buying anything. And not in some dealer's environment, but in one like I shoot in.
    Marc,

    Any serious Leica Professional dealer should be providing a test drive program for potential customers of the S2. You really need to get the S2 in your hands and see the resulting files for yourself to fully appreciate it.

    Speaking for ourselves, we plan on having at least 2-3 complete S2 systems available for test drive, rental, and courtesy loan. Similar to how we have run our test drive program for the M system, we will ship you the camera to use for a week on your terms. Any rental fees can be applied 100% to purchase within 30 days. We expect to have demo cameras within the next month or so.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  40. #40
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Ok stop here right now. The P65+ certainly does not block up shadows earlier than any other back I have seen. Nor do I believe that the S2 is better. Let's say I haven't seen prove for that.

    "You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear"

    Sorry but that sounds like wrong processing. I can't say for sure, but is sounds, like the default Noise Removal was on. Which in C1 I think is still the BIGGEST mistake you can make. If you do that you can get better results with every camera in Lightroom ^^


    So back to the topic. I haven't read everything, but I will try to give my few point.

    I have P65 + phase camera system 45,80,150 as lens and my loved LF system with 23,40,90,150

    Than there is my Canon System which is a 5DMk2 with way to many lenses.

    There is the Leica M9, which well is just great and fun to work with. Lenses for most work: 16-18-21, 28 2.8, 35 2.5, 28-35-50 and a 90


    So now let's get back to the S2. I love how it feels and shoots. I can't say anything about it's image quality, however I can say, that it won't and CAN'T replace a P65 + LF system. So it can't replace that. So now what ? Could it replace my Canon System ? I fear not. As much as i hope for it, I fear that ISO 800 is the limit. Which just gives me one more stop than my Phase System.

    So for now I'm planing to do the following:

    Probably replace the 5DMk2 with a 7D. Sell most Canon lenses. So that I am left with a handful.

    Wait till next year, wait until Leica can ship the 30-90 for the S2. Get a S2 System from my dealer with everything I would like and want and try it out.

    At that point I can perhaps decides whether it makes sense to buy one.


    At the end I want to address one point. the FUTURE.
    I think it is a risk to drop that much money on a S2 System. The same money could be used for probably two generations of Phase upgrade price and in addition for a new 1DsMk4 when it comes out. So for me the price is one main point holding me back. It is a lot for something that can't do anything better really.

    Now before people come at me again that the S2 will be so much better than a 1DsMk4 with 30Mp. Well really ? I have enough lenses which are good enough for 30Mp in such a small sensor. I know you won't be able to use a crappy lens like the 17-40 or 24-70, but my Leica, Zeiss and Top Canon primes will hold up pretty well. Now we come back to the file quality question. Here i have a different opinion. I don't care that much as long as i can print the size I want and it sells.

    Bottom line, I would wait and will wait. I want to know what really happens before spending so much money on a new system, even if it has a RED dot. ;-)

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    @CI ((OUCH, how can you upload such a file from a P65+ ? IT hurts to see it. Sorry but it really looks bad. I mean it looks worse than a lot of Canon shots.)) Ok just saw that there is not only the JPG David linked but a raw file. That is fine than.
    @ David No wonder the S2 looked better. I mean if that was the results I am getting from my P65 I would have thrown it out of the window a long time ago ;-)

  42. #42
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Often times you only see the best out of a camera, best lighting, best processing best exposure and best subjects. David was open with me and let me see the good, bad and ugly out of the camera and my take away is that the image quality and dynamic range out of the camera is fantastic!

    You should formulate your own opinions after you have handled and shot with the camera. Till then it is all speculation and opinions based on what has been read. I will wait till the production cameras are out and in circulation before testing the camera again before making my decision. I have been on the fence about a move to the H3dII 39 as the prices have come way down, currently at half the cost of a S2. But the S2 will replace the DSLR for me and the CFV system.

    Al
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

  43. #43
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Well you can use a Hassy or Phase as a DSLR too. I do it everyday. LOL
    Yes the S2 is nicer in that role but it can be done
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Well no guy it can't. Or let's say it depends what you do. Shooting wildlife, hiking 12 hours, shooting at night handheld. All these things are not really possible with any MFDB so far.

  45. #45
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I do a lot of stuff it should not do but yes obviously some it can't. But I try like hell too get it to do everything. Not always a easy task.LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  46. #46
    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Let's not forget that all the S2 lenses are autofocus and have several aspheric elements. In hundreds of shots I saw, not one had any CA or loss of sharpness at the edges. It's hard to argue that Leica glass will be anything less than excellent. I am not a MF shooter, but I understand that lots of the lenses in MF are not "state of the art" shall we say, and the ones that are tend to be priced as such.

    All this will come out in the wash once we get our hands on the cameras!

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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    We had that topic already. Certainly great lenses, but also a lot more expensive than anything else.

  48. #48
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    I think Schneider optics are about the same price as Leica S lenses.

  49. #49
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    I think Schneider optics are about the same price as Leica S lenses.
    Not really, generally they are way cheaper. From the Silvestri list, the most expensive Schneider lens in helicoidal mount is the APO Digitar 35mm XL that goes for about 3.000 euro MSRP. The cheapest is the APO Digitar 90 mm that goes for 1.470 euro MSRP. Everything else is in between, with 6 lenses in the 1.xxx euro range & 2 in the 2.xxx range. Hope this helps
    Vieri Bottazzini
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  50. #50
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

    The new LS lenses for Phase i can't find the numbers but the most expensive one (110) was around 3500 or 3800. Leica is about twice the price or more. You need to price the CS lenses to compare

    Here is Leica pricing
    Lenses:
    Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH - $4,495 (Oct 09)
    Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Nov 09)
    APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 - $6,495 (Oct 09)
    APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS - $7,495 (Nov 09)
    APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $6,495 (Nov 09)
    APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $7,495 (Nov 09)
    Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH - $5,295 (Dec 09)
    Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Dec 09)

    leica 4 lenses with CS 27k.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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