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Thread: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

  1. #51
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Thanks, David. So, from what you say, might we be seeing some real DNG files from anybody on Thursday or just afterward? Fair question. Also, does this mean you are still embargoed from publishing/sharing the other stuff you shot until the S2 actually starts shipping?

    LJ

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Thanks, David. So, from what you say, might we be seeing some real DNG files from anybody on Thursday or just afterward? Fair question. Also, does this mean you are still embargoed from publishing/sharing the other stuff you shot until the S2 actually starts shipping?

    LJ
    Yup. Files should emerge from the general public. I will also shoot at the even and post on my blog. No embargo on production cameras.

    I am meeting with the S2 product manager to get final approval on publishing my images from Germany.

    All in all, I think it should be a good week for those wanting to see S2 files.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  3. #53
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas
    Yes, I've asked specifically. Users are welcome to bring their own cards and keep/publish the DNG files.
    Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks

    Mark
    www.marktomalty.com

  4. #54
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    I have serious doubts about the information Leica has released and the reason to delay first delivery of the S2 camera.

    Time is an important factor here.
    It gives Hasselblad and Phase One the opportunity to sell their products which are ready to be released now.

    Hasselblad deserves a compliment for a strong strategic policy to keep their clients aboard and convince others to join them.

    Marketing the S2 will not be an easy task.
    The former sales manager from Hasselblad Germany who was appointed at Leica has already left Leica.
    Apparently there is a strong power struggle going on who is to decide the marketing strategy for the S2 camera.
    Not a very promising prospective.

  5. #55
    gdwhalen
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    The question I want answered isn't if it is going to come out, or when it is going to come out, or even when are all of the lenses going to come out? My question is, and this is a vast assumption for hypothetical reasons, how much better is it? Is it 2% better than anything out there? 5%? 10%? If it is not significantly better from a produced image standpoint what is the point of spending the extra money. Leica absolutely butchered the used R market by dumping the R system. There are no R collectors. Will they eventually dump the S? Who would buy a camera as an investment anyway - especially if it isn't a limited edition? So, if the camera isn't 10% better than anything else out there - why buy it? Especially given that the other MF systems (which Leica admittedly is not) are full systems and viable with a distinct upgradeable path. Where is the upside if the images aren't considerably better? The S2 isn't waterproof. It is ergonimically similar to 35mm but so was the Pentax.

    I shot the Leica R for 12 years and not one single person in all that time ever came up to me and said - "why do those images look so much better than my...........". Never. I loved shooting Leica because I always shoot manual focus and manual meter anyway. Loved the feel of it. But honestly, the images weren't 5% better than either Nikon or Canon. The hype/feel was but not the images.

    I opted out of Leica 2 months ago and went all-in Hasselblad because I feel Leica screwed me over with the dropping of the R line and no R10. I was a huge advocate, but since the kool-aid has washed through my system, I really wonder why all of those years, I was so steadfast with my defense of Leica? But I am glad that disease is over.

    It's all about the finished image to me so I don't care if the camera is pink, blue, yellow or puke colored, I only care what the images look like coming out of the camera. That is all that matters. So, hopefully all of you waiting for the S2, will find your golden camera - until the next great thing comes out and the race starts all over again.

  6. #56
    gdwhalen
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by Louvre View Post
    I have serious doubts about the information Leica has released and the reason to delay first delivery of the S2 camera.

    Time is an important factor here.
    It gives Hasselblad and Phase One the opportunity to sell their products which are ready to be released now.

    Hasselblad deserves a compliment for a strong strategic policy to keep their clients aboard and convince others to join them.

    Marketing the S2 will not be an easy task.
    The former sales manager from Hasselblad Germany who was appointed at Leica has already left Leica.
    Apparently there is a strong power struggle going on who is to decide the marketing strategy for the S2 camera.
    Not a very promising prospective.
    I think Leica made a HUGE mistake by pricing their camera where they did. But that is water over the dam. Time will answer all questions. Time and obsolescence.

  7. #57
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by Louvre View Post
    Hasselblad deserves a compliment for a strong strategic policy to keep their clients aboard and convince others to join them.
    Hasselblad's CEO on the other hand has made a fool of himself by saying that the camera is everything that everyone wants, except that it isn't available. Once Leica releases it, I would love to see him backtrack on that comment.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    My question is, and this is a vast assumption for hypothetical reasons, how much better is it?
    How do you want to measure it? Here is one way to describe what I have been reading from people who have seen and used it:

    Everyone around here compliments Mamiya's lenses. However, many people then move on to tech cameras with Schneider and Rodenstock lenses and claim that this is another step up optically.

    I imagine that Leica's system will combine the best of both worlds there, with a great sensor and lenses to match, no need to move to Schneider or Rodenstock to get sharp corners with no manipulation and great micro-contrast. The pricetag of course reflects this. No surprises so far. The catch is that it is no tech camera, but for light-duty use there will be a T/S lens with wide coverage.

    For me, the open question remains how good the photos will be coming out of Lightroom, which is a really nice program, but doesn't have algorithms as strong as Capture One in the areas of White Balance, Noise Reduction, and Colour.
    Carsten - Website

  9. #59
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    For me... the question is why is everyone so worked up about this.

    I make my living shooting and fully understand what the "right tools" can do for you... but, dudes, we don't even have official samples. Wait and see.... wait and see.

  10. #60
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Shelby,
    You are right. I think one reason some folks are getting worked up over this is that they do want to "see" and are getting tired of the "wait" part and all the hype. As for "official samples".....those would be nice, but honestly, just real world samples from trusted shooters would be preferable.

    I think the above comments by gdwhalen are accurate.....if the S2 is touted a being "better" than some other imagers, just how much better is it for all the cost and hype? If things looks pretty much the same from the S2 as from the Hassy 39 or P45+ or whatever it was originally targeted for comparison....ho hum. If images from the S2 look as good or better than stuff from the 50-60MP backs, then there will be something to crow about and discuss.

    LJ
    Last edited by LJL; 21st October 2009 at 14:23.

  11. #61
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    For me... the question is why is everyone so worked up about this.

    I make my living shooting and fully understand what the "right tools" can do for you... but, dudes, we don't even have official samples. Wait and see.... wait and see.


    Quite right Shelby - the voice of reason

    Just this guy you know

  12. #62
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    I agree with the "wait and see" mentality. People get really "juiced" about anything Leica and can become dragons.

    We'll know soon just what the deal is as the camera ships, images are shared, and results known.

    I do get a kick though out of the vitriol about Leica and late deliveries. First off, Leica is always late.........just seems to be the disconnect between marketing and engineering / manufacturing. They "hook" potential customers based on the product concept and then disappoint as missed deliveries become the norm.

    On the other hand, Mamiya has been promising CS lenses for several years. I read on the forums that many folks either bought in to Mamiya as a result or have been waiting for them to happen. I don't see anything like the anger against Mamiya as a result compared to the reaction against Leica.

    Just an observation!

    Woody

  13. #63
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Woody,
    I agree with you about how "we should know better than to expect on-time delivery" with respect to Leica. That does seem to be a much more sensitive issue on many fronts. I for one have dealt with all the delays in the past with the M8, and it was not always the most fun. This S2 is supposed to be Leica striking into a new area with professional photographers, so some of us reset our reaction based on those promises. That in itself could be a problem ;-) Leica has been pretty good about finally delivering on what they say, but at their own pace, and deadlines or dates are many times slipped, and they do not seem nearly as bothered by that as many of the folks on the other side.

    You are correct, almost all manufacturers are guilty of the same thing.....making promises or marketing pitches then not delivering as promised, usually with respect to delivery dates. The Mamiya LS lenses you mention are a perfect example. The live video viewing on the H3D-50 is another. The deliveries eventually come in some form, and folks tend to forget their annoyances....most of the time. With Leica, there do seem to be heightened expectations and responses....on both sides. Some of that may have to do with cost, some with mythical imaginations, etc. (I can feel the flames coming on that one, so please chill before burning he keyboards folks.) Leica is saying and promising a lot at this point with respect to the S2. They may deliver a superb tool. We have yet to see. Their marketing pitches and the ensuing comparisons and discussions have been raving since it was announced, and now some folks really want them to "put up" in order to get the "shut up" from any detractors. Leica has made some outstanding stuff over the years. They have also made a lot of folks unhappy in some areas. They just seem to bring out deeper passions on both sides of the aisle.

    Personally, I have a mixed experience with Leica, a lot of good, but some more recent less pleasant impressions. Maybe my patience with them is a bit worn thin at this point...not sure. However, there is a lot riding on the line in my personal decisions over gear. I do not want to spend and maybe lose in that process, so having some stuff to start comparing against some other stuff is becoming more important in that process. I am glad that we are finally going to start seeing some S2 images that can be more closely scrutinized to help in that process. The price differential between the S2 and some other potential choices is not trivial for many folks that not just casual users or collectors, so some of us want to see if the S2 is as much as it is cracked up to be for the cost. If it is, then it may be a wonderful direction to go. If not so much, then it will be equally good to move it off the list and consider other options to fulfill needs. Simple as that. Trying to do it without too much bias or passion either way.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    ......

    On the other hand, Mamiya has been promising CS lenses for several years. I read on the forums that many folks either bought in to Mamiya as a result or have been waiting for them to happen. I don't see anything like the anger against Mamiya as a result compared to the reaction against Leica.

    Just an observation!

    Woody
    I have a whole list of people who feel tricked by Phase/Mamiya, are pretty pissed off and already contacted their lawyers.

  15. #65
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    I think that all this hand wringing about "two year old sensor" is mostly mute. Leica is using a special 37 MPx sensor from Kodak that (and I have seen many files) produces stunning images. And that is all that counts. Now if you want or need 50 or 60Mpx Leica is not in that game. They deliberately chose 37Mpx and again from the files I have seen they outperform my H3DII-39. Could be the lenses (I suspect so) or something rather special from the Maestro processor. I don't think it matters a fat ratz as Peter A would say. If the files are special, they are special. Trying to figure out why and speculating brings NO new information to the party. It is just that, speculation. Makes for some fun in the forums (or is it fora?)to give us something to do until Leica actually ships. I too hoped they would be shipping right now and I could be evaluating something real. But two months is not going to make a significant difference to me. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter and I now am sure I will get flamed as a Leica fanboy.

    Woody
    Woody,

    I agree on most what you say. I think that the new CCDs in the S2 and in the P40+, P65+, H50, H60 which have 6 micron technology are definitely a step forward from the older CCDs - this is a natural evolution.

    But you are for sure aware how fast this evolution happens in that computer, sensor area, so I am pretty sure that Phase are already working on their next generation back design with Dalsa and Kodak and their next CCD (or maybe even already CMOS) generations. Will these be same 6 micron or 5.5 or what else I cannot tell. Do you need more pixels? Definitely YES, as long as IQ stays as good as today or can even be improved.

    I also have a number of comparisons between H39 and P40+ and P65+ and I can say that even in large size prints (I had opening of my gallery yesterday and you could see all these different images on large scale prints under gallery conditions), it is hard to tell any real difference. If so then mainly in terms of dynamic range etc. But this is important for post processing, so what you actually get with more pixels and better specifications is more flexibility in post processing. Now this is what counts for me, maybe not for many others, as they want to get a "final" image out of the camera, but for me this is important.

    Now coming back to S2 and their sensor - of course this is still a great tool, but issue is that it is so typical for Leica to delay shipment of their products till they finally come to market and there are already the next generations of backs and sensors out there in available products - I just want to mention DMR. And I won't forget this product, which burned lots of my energy, patience and money and actually would have been better never to buy in, but buy any available digital MF system at this time.

    So I just see that the S2 is locking itself by these delays in general. And be honest - when do you expect a S3? Not before 2012 maybe, so you have to be able to survive with the S2 the next 3 years then, if this is ok, then it can be the perfect tool.

    On the other hand if it comes to the "special" files, I do not really think they are so much better or more special than Hassi or Phase files, at least if I take what I can compare from the M8 and I assume that the S2 files will be similar to that except 4 times the resolution, then any P40+ or P65+ image has the same or better IQ (leaving pixel count out of the comparison).

    Never the less the S2 will be a sexy and amazing camera and I honestly am still considering to buy into that system, especially if we get C1 support. But if I judge all that business wise, then I must say "Never buy into it" - at least for me.

    Wait and see - nothing new with Leica anyway

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