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Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well, the Phase LS lenses are so far less phantoms than the Leica CS anyway - at least we have seen one of the Phase :D

Anyway, I'll bet you that we'll be able to buy the Phase 645 DF before we'll be able to buy the S2, and that we'll be able to buy all three LS Phase leaf shutter lenses before we'll be able to buy three Leica CS lenses of your choice...
Fully agree!

Leica is so slow and unprofessional WRT announcing and introducing and finally shipping new things, that some of them become already outdated before they hit the shelves.

Mainky I refer to the S2 - 2 years old sensor design, 2 years old processor design and once really available this becomes already 3 years. Man, by this timeframe others have introduced 2 new generations :D
 

carstenw

Active member
Well, the Phase LS lenses are so far less phantoms than the Leica CS anyway - at least we have seen one of the Phase :D

Anyway, I'll bet you that we'll be able to buy the Phase 645 DF before we'll be able to buy the S2, and that we'll be able to buy all three LS Phase leaf shutter lenses before we'll be able to buy three Leica CS lenses of your choice...
When is the promised delivery date?
 

carstenw

Active member
Fully agree!

Leica is so slow and unprofessional WRT announcing and introducing and finally shipping new things, that some of them become already outdated before they hit the shelves.

Mainky I refer to the S2 - 2 years old sensor design, 2 years old processor design and once really available this becomes already 3 years. Man, by this timeframe others have introduced 2 new generations :D
Whoa, let's slow down here. The Leica S2 was announced a year ago, and was just delayed by two months. When were the Phase One LS lenses announced the first time? The grip? I see references back to at least June 2008 when I search.
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Hey Victor, did you stop to consider that those "non buyers" may have been "buyers", but need more, cannot wait, and do not want to spend quite so much at this point on something that is not yet released, not really shaken down, and has a limited set of offerings for the broader needs at this point? Just a thought.

LJ
and a good thought it is; fair enough.

However, I am only referring to the delay; as you suggest, cost and features (of lack therof) have been the complaints and the reason we see the preponderance of 'potential non buyers' in the long S2 pricing thread.

I remember a rather senior IBM executive saying "...better late than lousy!"

They were notorious for delays and "annouceware".

What l and several others here who appear to apologists for Leica are attempting is to offset the 'pile-on' of negative sentiment, especially for those who have ALREADY made alternative decisions.

che sera sera...

Victor
 

vieri

Well-known member
When is the promised delivery date?
Not sure, if I remember correctly 80 end November, 55 end December, 110 January. But we already have seen images from the 80 (Tim here, for instance), and the lens actually exists and has been tested by some photographer already - the Leica CS are still very much in the "ghost" stage, to use a term recently popular on the forum.

My bet is still open - any takers? :D
 

LJL

New member
and a good thought it is; fair enough.


What l and several others here who appear to apologists for Leica are attempting is to offset the 'pile-on' of negative sentiment, especially for those who have ALREADY made alternative decisions.

che sera sera...

Victor
Victor,
I understand. Not trying to "pile on" as you suggest. I am one of those folks that has been wanting to be a "buyer" from the announcement of the S2, but as I watch things unfold, more questions keep popping up, as well as options from other systems. Since the S2 is an "all in" proposition, meaning that one has to commit some serious coin just to get into the system, as there is nothing else to test drive like it for anything less than new price, timing may start to matter on its release. The longer the delays in release, the bigger the worries for some, and questions by others. Fully agree that shipping it right is much preferred to shipping it with any issues. That still does not mean the outside pressures on Leica do not apply. The longer it takes to get out there, the longer it takes for folks to test it, scrutinize, etc. For folks that will buy it regardless of any other findings, the delay does not matter. For others, things now shipping or about to ship from other makers, special deals like trade-ins, etc., all become more important factors in decisions. If the S2 gets too far behind the curve in release, it will just make it a bit harder for them to get deeper into the market. If the delays are truly because the want to build up more inventory for initial shipment, that seems a bit foolish. The production line will be working, so they should be able to keep shipping weekly anyway. If the delays are the result of some unannounced technical or mechanical issues that requires them to go back and adjust all the inventory ready to ship now, plus the new stuff, it is good that they caught it, but still a worry about anything else that may be missed and is now under more pressure of the "hurry up" offense.

The Leica "apologists" as you characterize, are only trying to smooth the waters. That is the nature of things. I do not see it "balancing" anything, but sometimes actually creating more internal friction. It takes two sides to make an argument, or one is probably talking to himself too much :ROTFL:

At this point, all we have to go on is what Leica is releasing to the press, plus lots of speculation and armchair wondering. What we do know is that the S2 is not yet ready to be released by them. (Still unclear what the real dates are, as "Week 50" per their announcement puts it in early December, yet I am seeing others saying January and later. A firm date would be nice if only to stop some of the enflaming speculations, but I would much rather see the camera shipped and working properly whenever that is.)

The other stuff about seeing images and RAW files.....well, though I and some others would really like to start seeing something, it is Leica's prerogative to handle image release as they so choose. They have their reasons, and I and others do need to chill a bit and just wait. Not easy to do, and that in part may be letting some "potential buyers" slip a bit further away. I know few that would ever spend that much on any system without some images to consider, and the more widespread the better, but if the S2 is not yet ready, sharing images from pre-production cameras, lenses and software, while great to start scrutinizing, may not be what the finals will look like, and the S2 is a bit bigger bet that needs to be done correctly. Just my thoughts on that part.

With respect to the impact on Leica from the delay....well that will play itself out on its own. If lots of "pre-orders" start to get cancelled, or folks stop putting their names on waiting lists, that will be its own message and Leica will have to deal with that part however they choose. The folks at Hasselblad and Phase are not going let too much ground slip away over this, and there are other options starting to hit the market that will compete for consideration. Just the way it is.

LJ
 

Riccis

New member
Anyone thinking the S2 is vaporware should head to Photo Plus East in NYC as you'll be able to test drive the S2 on a studio shoot with a model (Thursday, October 22nd from noon-5 pm)

Jack Studios
601 W 26th Street
12th Floor
Between 11th and 12th Ave
212-367-7590

Cheers,
 

mtomalty

New member
Anyone thinking the S2 is vaporware should head to Photo Plus East in NYC as you'll be able to test drive the S2 on a studio shoot with a model (Thursday, October 22nd from noon-5 pm)
That the S2 is vaporware is not at issue.
Many have held it, some have used it.
He**, David Farkas has a review coming soon !

Any mention if, at the S2 event, users will be able to bring their own
card and leave with files?

Mark
www.marktomalty.com
 

woodyspedden

New member
Fully agree!

Leica is so slow and unprofessional WRT announcing and introducing and finally shipping new things, that some of them become already outdated before they hit the shelves.

Mainky I refer to the S2 - 2 years old sensor design, 2 years old processor design and once really available this becomes already 3 years. Man, by this timeframe others have introduced 2 new generations :D
I think that all this hand wringing about "two year old sensor" is mostly mute. Leica is using a special 37 MPx sensor from Kodak that (and I have seen many files) produces stunning images. And that is all that counts. Now if you want or need 50 or 60Mpx Leica is not in that game. They deliberately chose 37Mpx and again from the files I have seen they outperform my H3DII-39. Could be the lenses (I suspect so) or something rather special from the Maestro processor. I don't think it matters a fat ratz as Peter A would say. If the files are special, they are special. Trying to figure out why and speculating brings NO new information to the party. It is just that, speculation. Makes for some fun in the forums (or is it fora?)to give us something to do until Leica actually ships. I too hoped they would be shipping right now and I could be evaluating something real. But two months is not going to make a significant difference to me. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter and I now am sure I will get flamed as a Leica fanboy.

Woody
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
That the S2 is vaporware is not at issue.
Many have held it, some have used it.
He**, David Farkas has a review coming soon !

Any mention if, at the S2 event, users will be able to bring their own
card and leave with files?

Mark
www.marktomalty.com
Yes, I've asked specifically. Users are welcome to bring their own cards and keep/publish the DNG files.

The camera at PhotoPlus is a full production camera with final firmware.

If anyone is planning on attending, I'll see you there!

David
 

LJL

New member
Thanks, David. So, from what you say, might we be seeing some real DNG files from anybody on Thursday or just afterward? Fair question. Also, does this mean you are still embargoed from publishing/sharing the other stuff you shot until the S2 actually starts shipping?

LJ
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Thanks, David. So, from what you say, might we be seeing some real DNG files from anybody on Thursday or just afterward? Fair question. Also, does this mean you are still embargoed from publishing/sharing the other stuff you shot until the S2 actually starts shipping?

LJ
Yup. Files should emerge from the general public. I will also shoot at the even and post on my blog. No embargo on production cameras.

I am meeting with the S2 product manager to get final approval on publishing my images from Germany.

All in all, I think it should be a good week for those wanting to see S2 files.

David
 
L

Louvre

Guest
I have serious doubts about the information Leica has released and the reason to delay first delivery of the S2 camera.

Time is an important factor here.
It gives Hasselblad and Phase One the opportunity to sell their products which are ready to be released now.

Hasselblad deserves a compliment for a strong strategic policy to keep their clients aboard and convince others to join them.

Marketing the S2 will not be an easy task.
The former sales manager from Hasselblad Germany who was appointed at Leica has already left Leica.
Apparently there is a strong power struggle going on who is to decide the marketing strategy for the S2 camera.
Not a very promising prospective.
 
G

gdwhalen

Guest
The question I want answered isn't if it is going to come out, or when it is going to come out, or even when are all of the lenses going to come out? My question is, and this is a vast assumption for hypothetical reasons, how much better is it? Is it 2% better than anything out there? 5%? 10%? If it is not significantly better from a produced image standpoint what is the point of spending the extra money. Leica absolutely butchered the used R market by dumping the R system. There are no R collectors. Will they eventually dump the S? Who would buy a camera as an investment anyway - especially if it isn't a limited edition? So, if the camera isn't 10% better than anything else out there - why buy it? Especially given that the other MF systems (which Leica admittedly is not) are full systems and viable with a distinct upgradeable path. Where is the upside if the images aren't considerably better? The S2 isn't waterproof. It is ergonimically similar to 35mm but so was the Pentax.

I shot the Leica R for 12 years and not one single person in all that time ever came up to me and said - "why do those images look so much better than my...........". Never. I loved shooting Leica because I always shoot manual focus and manual meter anyway. Loved the feel of it. But honestly, the images weren't 5% better than either Nikon or Canon. The hype/feel was but not the images.

I opted out of Leica 2 months ago and went all-in Hasselblad because I feel Leica screwed me over with the dropping of the R line and no R10. I was a huge advocate, but since the kool-aid has washed through my system, I really wonder why all of those years, I was so steadfast with my defense of Leica? But I am glad that disease is over.

It's all about the finished image to me so I don't care if the camera is pink, blue, yellow or puke colored, I only care what the images look like coming out of the camera. That is all that matters. So, hopefully all of you waiting for the S2, will find your golden camera - until the next great thing comes out and the race starts all over again.
 
G

gdwhalen

Guest
I have serious doubts about the information Leica has released and the reason to delay first delivery of the S2 camera.

Time is an important factor here.
It gives Hasselblad and Phase One the opportunity to sell their products which are ready to be released now.

Hasselblad deserves a compliment for a strong strategic policy to keep their clients aboard and convince others to join them.

Marketing the S2 will not be an easy task.
The former sales manager from Hasselblad Germany who was appointed at Leica has already left Leica.
Apparently there is a strong power struggle going on who is to decide the marketing strategy for the S2 camera.
Not a very promising prospective.
I think Leica made a HUGE mistake by pricing their camera where they did. But that is water over the dam. Time will answer all questions. Time and obsolescence.
 

carstenw

Active member
Hasselblad deserves a compliment for a strong strategic policy to keep their clients aboard and convince others to join them.
Hasselblad's CEO on the other hand has made a fool of himself by saying that the camera is everything that everyone wants, except that it isn't available. Once Leica releases it, I would love to see him backtrack on that comment.
 

carstenw

Active member
My question is, and this is a vast assumption for hypothetical reasons, how much better is it?
How do you want to measure it? Here is one way to describe what I have been reading from people who have seen and used it:

Everyone around here compliments Mamiya's lenses. However, many people then move on to tech cameras with Schneider and Rodenstock lenses and claim that this is another step up optically.

I imagine that Leica's system will combine the best of both worlds there, with a great sensor and lenses to match, no need to move to Schneider or Rodenstock to get sharp corners with no manipulation and great micro-contrast. The pricetag of course reflects this. No surprises so far. The catch is that it is no tech camera, but for light-duty use there will be a T/S lens with wide coverage.

For me, the open question remains how good the photos will be coming out of Lightroom, which is a really nice program, but doesn't have algorithms as strong as Capture One in the areas of White Balance, Noise Reduction, and Colour.
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
For me... the question is why is everyone so worked up about this.

I make my living shooting and fully understand what the "right tools" can do for you... but, dudes, we don't even have official samples. Wait and see.... wait and see.
 

LJL

New member
Shelby,
You are right. I think one reason some folks are getting worked up over this is that they do want to "see" and are getting tired of the "wait" part and all the hype. As for "official samples".....those would be nice, but honestly, just real world samples from trusted shooters would be preferable.

I think the above comments by gdwhalen are accurate.....if the S2 is touted a being "better" than some other imagers, just how much better is it for all the cost and hype? If things looks pretty much the same from the S2 as from the Hassy 39 or P45+ or whatever it was originally targeted for comparison....ho hum. If images from the S2 look as good or better than stuff from the 50-60MP backs, then there will be something to crow about and discuss.

LJ
 
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