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Thread: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Official Statement from Leica:

    The Leica S-System has attracted a great deal of attention among photographers since it was announced at Photokina 2008. Orders for the system have been much higher than expected, and in order to meet this higher demand, we have decided to adapt the S-System production lines to enable a higher daily output. Due to the fact that this cannot be done during running production, and because the process calls for further testing and optimisation at some stages, first deliveries will commence from calendar week 50 (w/c 7 December 2009).

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Disappointing. I was hoping to see one soon. I hope this is really the truth, but I guess sales numbers will show.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Just read this ....

    Very bad news, no good start - sorry.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    I think it probably is more or less true: I am invited to shoot what I believe will be a production model on the 11th November under studio conditions and I will be allowed to take my Phase kit to compare. I don't think that they'd be doing that if they weren't about ready with the product but.... we'll see!

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Actually Leica said deliveries starting 2nd week of Jan 2010

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    So we finally can be happy if we can buy a S2 spring or summer 2010 ....

    I think this strategy will for sure not help Leica against their competition

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Goh View Post
    Actually Leica said deliveries starting 2nd week of Jan 2010
    HI Henry
    Where did you get that from?
    AP and other sources say week 50.

    Tim
    I agree - especially as they are clearly having difficulties right now getting the M9 production up to speed. Shipping three new cameras in 4 months when you've only done one in the past 5 years must be a bit of a challenge!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I think this strategy will for sure not help Leica against their competition
    if the camera is good when it appears, it'll be forgotten in weeks.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    if the camera is good when it appears, it'll be forgotten in weeks.
    Agreed.
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    gdwhalen
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    This is the same thing that happened with the DMR. In that case the files were great but the sensor was already a generation or two behind. Timelines are different now. Much shorter lifespans for digital products and every delay just opens up the door for being yesterday's news. Keep in mind, that this camera was "announced" over a year ago. And now they are going to wait another two months.

    I partially agree that if the files are excellent that it won't matter. But it WILL matter when Phase and Hasselblad introduce their next generation and trump the S2. Something is amiss.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    I don't know, we will see but right now when I talk to dealer about the S2, they are pretty quite. They are selling quite a few Hassis and P40, but when it comes ti Leica and the S2, you hear nothing. That is not to implies that the camera itself is not good, just shows again, that Leica really has no clue of marketing or anything else. You could prevent some of these current sales, quite easily by finally showing the real quality of the S2. RAW Files ^^ However perhaps Leica just does not care to loose pros, there certainly are enough rich people who want just a symbol. Hey perhaps Leica even manages to delay the larger quantities of shipments until, Canon comes out with a 1DsMkV (IV). That certainly would be interesting.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    If the camera is so good (and there are not production problems as opposed to production shortages) then why not get it into the hands of the rich and famous so we can desire to be like them? With Leaf introducing an $8,000 back some of us might not have any money left for dream products come December...

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    While company apologists (be it Leica, Nikon, Canon or whomever) and PR types will always put a positive spin on the bleakest news, this is not good news and highlights the issue of announcing a product so far ahead of anticipated release.

    The timeline of market's reactions (tongue on cheek):

    "Holy Cr*p, nice MFD-esque kit, Leica glass+Phase alliance - wicked"
    "Oh, oh, what do you mean no Phase alliance?" (about 1 hr after initial press release..)
    - time passes-
    "Oooh, look at what Hassy and Phase just announced..."
    "Ok, where are the S2 pre-production 3rd party reviews?"
    "Sweet baby Jeebus, did I read those prices right...!?"
    "Oooh, look at what Hassy and Phase just announced..."
    "Hum, delayed, not biggie, I guess"
    "Uh, where are the RAW files?...helllooooo"
    "Oooh, look at what Hassy and Phase just announced..."
    "Let me know when I can test one... and IF I haven't bought anything in mean time, we'll see..."
    "Oh, another delay - something's amiss...."

    All in good fun, but...

    The explanation as given, makes no sense. That said, reading between the lines, a good guess (of many) would be they are having too high a re-work rate on finished units. That being that too many S2s are having to go back thru production and testing after failing QC or they are seeing too high a variance between units. This slows production down to a crawl and opens up a HUGE potential problem if any percentage of units slip thru the final testing cracks. Thus the need to shut down the line and rework it.

    Regardless of the reason, ongoing delays, regardless of spin when entering a new, small market up against Hassy and Phase is not good. That said, given that the vast percentage of S2s will likely sell to enthusiasts vs pros, the delay might not cost them that much.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    I dont give a fat ratz behind how many 'new' products and 'new' technologies PhaMiyBlad announce before the S2 comes out. I am megapixeled out and dont need to use a 28mm lens at 100 metres to do macro shots of the hairs on flies behinds.

    Leica can take as much time as they need to bring out the S2 and the usual naysayers and vetsed interests can bring out a new body and a new magapixel and a new whatever in the meantime - relly changes nothing for Leica people.

    What is obvious to anybody - is that the M9 is a major major success as far as demand goes - this so called dead company has come back very strong. M9 for Christmas and an S2 for Easter - thats a good plan dont you think? -

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    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    M9 for Christmas and an S2 for Easter - thats a good plan dont you think? -
    well... the generations-old question still remains to be answered (this time I'll only put it to leica)... does Easter bring a resurrection or just inky blackness?


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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I dont give a fat ratz behind how many 'new' products and 'new' technologies PhaMiyBlad announce before the S2 comes out. I am megapixeled out and dont need to use a 28mm lens at 100 metres to do macro shots of the hairs on flies behinds.

    Leica can take as much time as they need to bring out the S2 and the usual naysayers and vetsed interests can bring out a new body and a new magapixel and a new whatever in the meantime - relly changes nothing for Leica people.

    What is obvious to anybody - is that the M9 is a major major success as far as demand goes - this so called dead company has come back very strong. M9 for Christmas and an S2 for Easter - thats a good plan dont you think? -
    What is an "Leica people"? I have shot Leica for 15+ years but certainly don't want to ever consider myself a "Leica people".

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    That was profound

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    well... the generations-old question still remains to be answered (this time I'll only put it to leica)... does Easter bring a resurrection or just inky blackness?


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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Part of my point -- and THE strongest market dynamic Leica has in it's favor.

    As for the M9, I was talking about the S2. They be different kettles of fish (a disgusting mental visual, but..)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ...Leica can take as much time as they need to bring out the S2 and the usual naysayers and vetsed interests can bring out a new body and a new magapixel and a new whatever in the meantime - relly changes nothing for Leica people....

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    What is an "Leica people"? I have shot Leica for 15+ years but certainly don't want to ever consider myself a "Leica people".
    Sorry I dont know how to navigate the obviously complicated minefield of your sensitivities. OR it was a humouristic simplification describing the simple notion of a collective who liek to buy and use a leica product(s) OR it was a black satirical poke in teh ribs of the leica tribe of fanatical users OR a thousand other potential post modernist mental torture tests for those so inclienmd to take offence at anything they feel inclined to take offence

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    I fully understand that Hassi and Phase are selling very good with their new products. And they both are adding to an already very complete system.

    The S2 is completely new, no real system behind for the moment and the biggest issue which was already mentioned here, that the sensor and electronics are already 2 year old designs as per today, if not more than that.

    SO when the S2 hits really the streets I expect some very great new stuff coming from Phase and maybe then also from Hassi with some delay. Will everybody need this? NO! But it is also not good for the S2.

    I had the same issue with the DMR, and I guess I will be strong enough not to repeat this again.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    What is an "Leica people"? I have shot Leica for 15+ years but certainly don't want to ever consider myself a "Leica people".
    Well, I guess its just a feeling. I'm sort of a Leica/Zeiss camera person, Mercedes car person.

    It's maybe as simple as brand layalty-it says, all the details aside ("be approximately rigtht, not precesely wrong..") that I have had better decisions, and happier experience when I stay with products (usually long term, like over 100 yeaqrs!) that have served me well.

    As guy mentioned, isn't the parts that are the same but the ones that are different - like the lenses from Leica/Zeiss being best look (for ME!)

    Nothing mystical, more statistical, mostly just 'feel good when I do it"

    regards
    Victor

    PS And yes I DO consider myself a 'Leica" person,. In spite of that I have S-K, Alpa and Zeiss lenses as well- and like them all. But I have collected over 30 Leica!

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    It's a shame this was due first week of October and being pushed out first makes no sense and anyone waiting to buy just puts there time table out further. For me I will proceed with any buy decision I was already thinking about given the money but seriously this puts the S2 out till late spring as a purchase until everything is worked out and such. It is what it is still a ghost but many folks will wait and i guess that is Leica's hope. Maybe more time for me to get to test it out as well. Which I still very much would like to do but again Leica will have to watch there back door on the competition as well with new stuff from them. Interesting times ahead
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    What is an "Leica people"? I have shot Leica for 15+ years but certainly don't want to ever consider myself a "Leica people".
    We have a round red birthmark somewhere on our bodies.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    We have a round red birthmark somewhere on our bodies.
    Either that or someone's painting you with a sniper scope

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    I was a bit dismayed when this announcement was made. Aside from wanting to start seeing what the S2 can do, it raised a couple of points in my mind. First, really not sure why the delay in shipping for those units that were ready to ship. Leica must have known a while back when changing the production line. That entire part still seems a bit strange to me. Second, if there are some found last minute glitches, it is good that Leica is trying to iron them out before the S2 ships. The hope is that any such glitches are minor and easily corrected, but I admit that I have a sneakingly not so good feeling about something a bit more serious needing attention. Again, if that is the case, glad they are doing it before shipping.

    On the other side of things, this delay is probably not helping them. It seems to give more time to Hassy and Phase to offer a few more options and things to keep folks in their camp, or even to attract some that may have been sitting on the sidelines. Not that a month or two is that big a deal, but in this case, given all the other stuff starting to drop into the market also, it could slow the burn for the S2. Personally, I was really waiting to see this thing in action, see some real images finally (including RAW files), and get thinking about decisions. With the offerings, deals and pushes from other camera companies now, the S2 is slowly drifting a bit further away. Hope they do not suffer any more delays.

    Have to say, with the recent D3s and now the 1DMkIV announcements in the 35mm DSLR camp, the promises of a 28-32+MP DSLR are getting much closer. Yes, the comparisons between the sensor and the glass are probably not going to be that close, but the higher resolutions and new technologies there are hard to ignore, given all those other beasts can do already. It will be interesting, as part of what could have been the group from the 35mm DSLR camp that were seriously thinking about the S2, are seeing some pretty attractive options to remain with Canon or Nikon before they even get a chance to evaluate the S2. Again, hope this is the only delay, and that the reason is nothing serious, but I cannot shake the feeling that this is not good for Leica at this point.....unless the really only care about selling to a more select, less demanding crowd that is willing to wait and pay for their S2.

    LJ

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    I was a bit dismayed when this announcement was made. Aside from wanting to start seeing what the S2 can do, it raised a couple of points in my mind. First, really not sure why the delay in shipping for those units that were ready to ship. Leica must have known a while back when changing the production line. That entire part still seems a bit strange to me. Second, if there are some found last minute glitches, it is good that Leica is trying to iron them out before the S2 ships. The hope is that any such glitches are minor and easily corrected, but I admit that I have a sneakingly not so good feeling about something a bit more serious needing attention. Again, if that is the case, glad they are doing it before shipping.

    On the other side of things, this delay is probably not helping them. It seems to give more time to Hassy and Phase to offer a few more options and things to keep folks in their camp, or even to attract some that may have been sitting on the sidelines. Not that a month or two is that big a deal, but in this case, given all the other stuff starting to drop into the market also, it could slow the burn for the S2. Personally, I was really waiting to see this thing in action, see some real images finally (including RAW files), and get thinking about decisions. With the offerings, deals and pushes from other camera companies now, the S2 is slowly drifting a bit further away. Hope they do not suffer any more delays.

    Have to say, with the recent D3s and now the 1DMkIV announcements in the 35mm DSLR camp, the promises of a 28-32+MP DSLR are getting much closer. Yes, the comparisons between the sensor and the glass are probably not going to be that close, but the higher resolutions and new technologies there are hard to ignore, given all those other beasts can do already. It will be interesting, as part of what could have been the group from the 35mm DSLR camp that were seriously thinking about the S2, are seeing some pretty attractive options to remain with Canon or Nikon before they even get a chance to evaluate the S2. Again, hope this is the only delay, and that the reason is nothing serious, but I cannot shake the feeling that this is not good for Leica at this point.....unless the really only care about selling to a more select, less demanding crowd that is willing to wait and pay for their S2.

    LJ
    Share your opinion and thoughts!

    WRT next generation DSLRs and 28 - 30MP or what else is possible, please keep in mind that even more MP will not help as long as these DSLRs have to suffer from AA filters. Re,ember that neither the S2 nor the MFDBs do have this filters, which adds a big bonus to the superior IQ IMHO.

    Anyway, I decided to have some real time, real fun an will get a Panasonic GF1 with Pancake lens - I trust what Guy is finding here

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Peter,
    Who knows....maybe that much smaller pixel size might start to eliminate some of the need for AA filters on those CMOS chips. The new gapless microlenses also seem to be allowing for weaker and weaker AA filters. So maybe that big differentiator between CMOS and CCD will become a bit less relevant. The CCD color qualities are still stunning, but the costs for something that can be boosted a bit in post are getting harder to justify in some minds, mine included. Just some food for thought......heresey on the MF front, but real nonetheless ;-)

    LJ
    Last edited by LJL; 20th October 2009 at 08:37.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    LJ,

    We often see these things in a similar way. But as one who shoots Canon and a "lowly" Phase One P25+ I can say that the DSLR folks have a ways to go, at least for certain types of image making. While MY P25+ is going UP in value every day () some folks are finding MFD prices coming down, especially in the 22-28MP class. For my money, and my type of photography (whatever that is) I still see a big difference b/n the output of DSLRs and AA filter-less-CCD-backs.

    I'm not suggesting that you are saying anything to the contrary, as I read your posts as being forward-looking. I don't like pixel-peeping, as I think it gets in the way of "real photography", but for certain types of work there is still a very recognizable difference produced by the different design philosophies of the DSLR makers and MFD makers. I expected to upgrade before now, but my timing has been controlled by other influences. Never the less, I still see real differences between the different approaches. My guess is that the S2 will be spectacular, and the weather sealing is a huge benefit to someone like me. And at that same time I think of what the new 1Ds mk IV might bring... and then realize that it will still be a 24x36mm sensor with a strong AA filter. If I go to Africa I will want it, but I will miss my crappy ol' P25+ while I'm there.

    I recently did a portrait session (actually two) in which I shot both systems. The differences where not trivial, and this coming from one who truly hates "pixels over content" judgments. Ultimately, in the second of the mentioned sessions, we opted for the Canon stuff because the light was just too low (natural light + reflectors). In the former shoot we opted for the the P1 images, hands down. Light was still modest, but there was a great "fullness" to it. The images pop unlike DSLR files.

    I'ts not Kool-Aid, and I know that you know this too. There are many of us who wish it was, so that we could avoid the slippery slope.

    The fact of the matter is, we're lucky because all of the gear we lug around takes great images if we do our part, and it's only getting better.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 20th October 2009 at 09:24.

  29. #29
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Disappointing indeed, and coming with an especially bad timing for Leica IMHO. As some of you know, I am just new into DMF and happy with my Phase1 P45+, 645 AF & Bicam system, so I was out of the S2 game anyway, thus not much has changed for me personally.

    However, I think that those who underestimate future Phase & Hassy announcements in respect to the fate of the S2 are missing a couple of things there:

    - Leica could and probably will loose customers due to the release of new cameras/sensors (new Hassy, new Phase 645 DF, new entry-level Leaf back, new high MP Leaf backs, etc);

    - one of the advantages of the S2 is IMO in the high flash sync with LS lenses, which could be enough of a reason to switch for those who need it. If Phase keep their shipping dates on their new Schneider lenses, people who need this feature will get these lenses and will not likely be waiting for the ghost S2: once they do, they will be much less likely to switch when the S2 will finally be out.

    Of course, I am aware of the point re: possible superior IQ, DSLR-like handling etc; however, working photographer need something that works now, not in an hypothetical future, and the IQ, speed, features that the present offer of Hassy, Phase & Leaf guarantee is pretty much covering all bases; more, they are working hard and releasing new stuff fast enough to cover what is missing in their line-up. I am afraid with Leica's delay, assuming they will keep their January date, the potential customer base as far as the working pro is concerned will have shrunk a fair bit...

    Of course, rich amateurs will always be there, so no problem there!

    Just my .02...
    Vieri Bottazzini
    Leica Ambassador | Formatt-Hitech Ambassador | ABIPP EP
    VIERI BOTTAZZINI PHOTOGRAPHER | VIERI BOTTAZZINI WORKSHOPS | VIERI BOTTAZZINI FINE ART

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Dale,
    I think we are very much on the same track and perspective. I did not want to give the impression that I think any 35mm DSLR today is going to rival the image quality from a good MF rig. I see the differences myself. I too would love the S2 to come through and deliver for me in ways that I presently dream and hope a future Canon camera may be able to. Not kidding myself, nor suggesting there is or soon will be image parity from the systems. All that being said, the advances on the 35mm DSLR side of things appear to be outpacing most of what we see in MF today, and that should not surprise anybody. the 35mm DLSR format will be limited, but the advances being made now are nothing to ignore. Should we reach the point where a Canon or Nikon is able to crank out a respectable 30+MP image, one has to start seriously considering just how much advantage will remain in MF for the much larger industry and its uses. Sure, MF hands down looks much better today compared to the best 35mm DSLR files. That gap will get closed little by little, but the other features on the 35mm system vastly outpace where MF is today and where they might go in the near future. I think a lot does have to do with needs. If my buying clients are really not agonizing over the fine detail image quality, and worse yet, are not willing to pay for something they are not really appreciating, one has to consider the reasons to invest so much with only personal satisfaction in return. I, or you can still keep a MF for delivering on that front, but when pressed to get shots, the 35mm DSLRs today and those possibly coming, are not giving up too much image ground, but they are able to provide a lot more flexibility and utility where it may matter in more and more cases.

    I still have some lust for the S2 or the H4D-60 or even the Phase stuff (though I still do not like that body), and will probably add kit as I feel comfortable. In the meantime, it is nice to see the 35mm DSLR stuff making some decent strides to helping deliver more without breaking the bank quite as much.

    LJ

    P.S. A completely different perspective.....the new 1DMkIV is able to handle 160MP/s in speed. That puts every MF system to shame in a big way. Now, if some of that horsepower could be harnessed to deliver even more refined images from future dialed in sensors, things start to change in different ways. There just seems to be so much more tech on the side of the 35mm folks at this point, that IF (biggest word) they can keep fine-tuning the sensors, not just for high ISO, but to eliminate AA filters, increase color depth, etc., things will look a bit different rather quickly.
    Last edited by LJL; 20th October 2009 at 09:59.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    LJ,

    We largely agree. Many of the benefits of the DSLRs appear to be carefully considered in the design of the S2. These benefits are not trivial, when it comes to handling, weather sealing, etc.

    Paying-clients often don't see anything remotely related to what is discussed here, and yet still we pursue "it". I think that's a good thing, at least on some levels, but maybe not a pure business level.

    As I watch the various VDOs regarding the S2 I realize that the four lenses that they are currently suggesting will be available soon will just not cover enough for me. Covering 35mm to 180mm in only four steps is not for me. I absolutely hate to crop (except for certain types of projects) and can't image jumping from 35mm to 70mm to 120mm to 180mm. I have a lot of respect for what Leica is doing (or trying to do), but reality is telling me that this four lens kit is too limiting for me.

    It's midnight here in Bangkok. I need to sleep now. I hope everyone has a great day (or night).

    d...

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    A properly processed DSLR file with the same level of attention and proportional money spent at the time of capture (fast glass for aperture blur and quality light) would be hard to tell the difference in a MFD version of the same scene. You have to let go of your preferences and utilize both to their best of the ability. I have yet to see anyone online truly do this. All I hear is a bunch of emotionally charged opinions on how superior MFD is without any quantifying side by side shots of the same scene. I don't need to see 200% blowups either. I mean final viewing/printing sizes under 16x24. We all know MFD is better for printing beyond that because of the sheer number of pixels (assuming you own a $30K back that is and can keep shake down to 0).

    I want a MFD system but not because I believe my customers are going to see a difference. For certain types of my work I enjoy a large viewfinder at the time of capture and a good 100% imaged editing experience during workflow. I will not spend $30K to get this feeling however.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    LJ,

    We largely agree. Many of the benefits of the DSLRs appear to be carefully considered in the design of the S2. These benefits are not trivial, when it comes to handling, weather sealing, etc.

    Paying-clients often don't see anything remotely related to what is discussed here, and yet still we pursue "it". I think that's a good thing, at least on some levels, but maybe not a pure business level.

    As I watch the various VDOs regarding the S2 I realize that the four lenses that they are currently suggesting will be available soon will just not cover enough for me. Covering 35mm to 180mm in only four steps is not for me. I absolutely hate to crop (except for certain types of projects) and can't image jumping from 35mm to 70mm to 120mm to 180mm. I have a lot of respect for what Leica is doing (or trying to do), but reality is telling me that this four lens kit is too limiting for me.

    It's midnight here in Bangkok. I need to sleep now. I hope everyone has a great day (or night).

    d...
    Dale,
    As you drift off in your dreams, think about the supposed 30-90 zoom for the S2. That one seems to get lost in much of the discussion, and it could become the real gem. Just wish it was f2.5 and had a central shutter planned as some of the others. It could go a long way to filling gaps, much as the 24-70mm lenses do for so much of 35mm shooting....but a Leica lens for that range could be awesome....just needs to be faster ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Withe the leaf shutter lenses not coming till early next year (maybe? ) it maybe didn't matter that the body was a bit delayed.

    Curious all the hand wringing over the delay is by the 'non buyers'
    [Been waiting to use that one ]
    Victor

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Hey Victor, did you stop to consider that those "non buyers" may have been "buyers", but need more, cannot wait, and do not want to spend quite so much at this point on something that is not yet released, not really shaken down, and has a limited set of offerings for the broader needs at this point? Just a thought.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    during this waiting maybe somme people will go for an alpa pr arca and the leaf cheap back...

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    At this juncture no one is 'a buyer' per se as there is no camera or raw images to evaluate. That said, there are two types of potential buyers for the S2:

    1. Those that will wait, regardless of delay and buy the S2, barring it being an utter dog at release (unlikely) based partially on faith and the feeling, that on paper, Leica has answered what they were looking for. For all but the most dire reasons, buying an S2 for these folks is a done deal. Tis a matter of when not if.

    2. Those that would like to possibly move to a 1st MFD or another MFD, quite possibly the S2, and are evaluating ALL their options carefully. To them, the S2 is one option not THE option as they strive for the best solution to their workflow for their $$ with the least disruption/potential risk to same. They want to shoot it, process raw files, see if the touted pro S&S program has a pulse, see if LR can work some S2-specifc magic on the DNGs, read feedback from folks they trust on it, etc.

    It is this latter crowd that ongoing delays and the "I wonder what the issue is.." and second-guessing as to the product's viability the ongoing delays drive that Leica risks losing to Hassy/Phase+Leaf as time passes.

    For possible buyer #2, Leica is treading water as other players move forward with options like LS glass, tech innovation like the H4 and in price/performance with ongoing price drops and rejuvenated trade-up programs. Production delays for whatever reason they care to release are one thing, but the fact no raw files are yet released does not bode well. If the files were stunning out of camera, there is no harm in releasing them or a couple of QC'd bodies to 3rd parties to eval to appease fence-sitters as volume 'production issues' (huh uh) get ironed out.

    The option of the latest and greatest as-yet-to-be tested uber-charged sex-on-wheels AMG at some possible future date becomes a harder and harder sell as release deadlines keep getting extended for WTF? reasons and Lexus, BMW, Porsche et al keeping waving increasingly appealing and innovative (vs prior models) bargains in your face every quarter.

    All that being said, I think a realistic viewpoint is that Buyer #1 will speak for the VAST majority of the S2's initial production run, despite Leica's expressed target-market assertions to the contrary.
    Last edited by robmac; 20th October 2009 at 12:09.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    A few of you have said that this delay means that Leica will lose sales to Phase, due to the new LS glass. When is it coming out? Has anyone seen any of the lenses, other than the 80?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    A few of you have said that this delay means that Leica will lose sales to Phase, due to the new LS glass. When is it coming out? Has anyone seen any of the lenses, other than the 80?
    if the s2 is a ghost then the new phase camera and LS lenses are phantoms.. and no sales will be lost to phase. I see only hasselblad gaining some sales for those few that have to move now on something.

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmoore View Post
    if the s2 is a ghost then the new phase camera and LS lenses are phantoms.. and no sales will be lost to phase. I see only hasselblad gaining some sales for those few that have to move now on something.
    Well, the Phase LS lenses are so far less phantoms than the Leica CS anyway - at least we have seen one of the Phase

    Anyway, I'll bet you that we'll be able to buy the Phase 645 DF before we'll be able to buy the S2, and that we'll be able to buy all three LS Phase leaf shutter lenses before we'll be able to buy three Leica CS lenses of your choice...
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Well, the Phase LS lenses are so far less phantoms than the Leica CS anyway - at least we have seen one of the Phase

    Anyway, I'll bet you that we'll be able to buy the Phase 645 DF before we'll be able to buy the S2, and that we'll be able to buy all three LS Phase leaf shutter lenses before we'll be able to buy three Leica CS lenses of your choice...
    Fully agree!

    Leica is so slow and unprofessional WRT announcing and introducing and finally shipping new things, that some of them become already outdated before they hit the shelves.

    Mainky I refer to the S2 - 2 years old sensor design, 2 years old processor design and once really available this becomes already 3 years. Man, by this timeframe others have introduced 2 new generations

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Well, the Phase LS lenses are so far less phantoms than the Leica CS anyway - at least we have seen one of the Phase

    Anyway, I'll bet you that we'll be able to buy the Phase 645 DF before we'll be able to buy the S2, and that we'll be able to buy all three LS Phase leaf shutter lenses before we'll be able to buy three Leica CS lenses of your choice...
    When is the promised delivery date?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Fully agree!

    Leica is so slow and unprofessional WRT announcing and introducing and finally shipping new things, that some of them become already outdated before they hit the shelves.

    Mainky I refer to the S2 - 2 years old sensor design, 2 years old processor design and once really available this becomes already 3 years. Man, by this timeframe others have introduced 2 new generations
    Whoa, let's slow down here. The Leica S2 was announced a year ago, and was just delayed by two months. When were the Phase One LS lenses announced the first time? The grip? I see references back to at least June 2008 when I search.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Hey Victor, did you stop to consider that those "non buyers" may have been "buyers", but need more, cannot wait, and do not want to spend quite so much at this point on something that is not yet released, not really shaken down, and has a limited set of offerings for the broader needs at this point? Just a thought.

    LJ
    and a good thought it is; fair enough.

    However, I am only referring to the delay; as you suggest, cost and features (of lack therof) have been the complaints and the reason we see the preponderance of 'potential non buyers' in the long S2 pricing thread.

    I remember a rather senior IBM executive saying "...better late than lousy!"

    They were notorious for delays and "annouceware".

    What l and several others here who appear to apologists for Leica are attempting is to offset the 'pile-on' of negative sentiment, especially for those who have ALREADY made alternative decisions.

    che sera sera...

    Victor

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    When is the promised delivery date?
    Not sure, if I remember correctly 80 end November, 55 end December, 110 January. But we already have seen images from the 80 (Tim here, for instance), and the lens actually exists and has been tested by some photographer already - the Leica CS are still very much in the "ghost" stage, to use a term recently popular on the forum.

    My bet is still open - any takers?
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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    and a good thought it is; fair enough.


    What l and several others here who appear to apologists for Leica are attempting is to offset the 'pile-on' of negative sentiment, especially for those who have ALREADY made alternative decisions.

    che sera sera...

    Victor
    Victor,
    I understand. Not trying to "pile on" as you suggest. I am one of those folks that has been wanting to be a "buyer" from the announcement of the S2, but as I watch things unfold, more questions keep popping up, as well as options from other systems. Since the S2 is an "all in" proposition, meaning that one has to commit some serious coin just to get into the system, as there is nothing else to test drive like it for anything less than new price, timing may start to matter on its release. The longer the delays in release, the bigger the worries for some, and questions by others. Fully agree that shipping it right is much preferred to shipping it with any issues. That still does not mean the outside pressures on Leica do not apply. The longer it takes to get out there, the longer it takes for folks to test it, scrutinize, etc. For folks that will buy it regardless of any other findings, the delay does not matter. For others, things now shipping or about to ship from other makers, special deals like trade-ins, etc., all become more important factors in decisions. If the S2 gets too far behind the curve in release, it will just make it a bit harder for them to get deeper into the market. If the delays are truly because the want to build up more inventory for initial shipment, that seems a bit foolish. The production line will be working, so they should be able to keep shipping weekly anyway. If the delays are the result of some unannounced technical or mechanical issues that requires them to go back and adjust all the inventory ready to ship now, plus the new stuff, it is good that they caught it, but still a worry about anything else that may be missed and is now under more pressure of the "hurry up" offense.

    The Leica "apologists" as you characterize, are only trying to smooth the waters. That is the nature of things. I do not see it "balancing" anything, but sometimes actually creating more internal friction. It takes two sides to make an argument, or one is probably talking to himself too much

    At this point, all we have to go on is what Leica is releasing to the press, plus lots of speculation and armchair wondering. What we do know is that the S2 is not yet ready to be released by them. (Still unclear what the real dates are, as "Week 50" per their announcement puts it in early December, yet I am seeing others saying January and later. A firm date would be nice if only to stop some of the enflaming speculations, but I would much rather see the camera shipped and working properly whenever that is.)

    The other stuff about seeing images and RAW files.....well, though I and some others would really like to start seeing something, it is Leica's prerogative to handle image release as they so choose. They have their reasons, and I and others do need to chill a bit and just wait. Not easy to do, and that in part may be letting some "potential buyers" slip a bit further away. I know few that would ever spend that much on any system without some images to consider, and the more widespread the better, but if the S2 is not yet ready, sharing images from pre-production cameras, lenses and software, while great to start scrutinizing, may not be what the finals will look like, and the S2 is a bit bigger bet that needs to be done correctly. Just my thoughts on that part.

    With respect to the impact on Leica from the delay....well that will play itself out on its own. If lots of "pre-orders" start to get cancelled, or folks stop putting their names on waiting lists, that will be its own message and Leica will have to deal with that part however they choose. The folks at Hasselblad and Phase are not going let too much ground slip away over this, and there are other options starting to hit the market that will compete for consideration. Just the way it is.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Anyone thinking the S2 is vaporware should head to Photo Plus East in NYC as you'll be able to test drive the S2 on a studio shoot with a model (Thursday, October 22nd from noon-5 pm)

    Jack Studios
    601 W 26th Street
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    Cheers,

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by Riccis View Post
    Anyone thinking the S2 is vaporware should head to Photo Plus East in NYC as you'll be able to test drive the S2 on a studio shoot with a model (Thursday, October 22nd from noon-5 pm)
    That the S2 is vaporware is not at issue.
    Many have held it, some have used it.
    He**, David Farkas has a review coming soon !

    Any mention if, at the S2 event, users will be able to bring their own
    card and leave with files?

    Mark
    www.marktomalty.com

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Fully agree!

    Leica is so slow and unprofessional WRT announcing and introducing and finally shipping new things, that some of them become already outdated before they hit the shelves.

    Mainky I refer to the S2 - 2 years old sensor design, 2 years old processor design and once really available this becomes already 3 years. Man, by this timeframe others have introduced 2 new generations
    I think that all this hand wringing about "two year old sensor" is mostly mute. Leica is using a special 37 MPx sensor from Kodak that (and I have seen many files) produces stunning images. And that is all that counts. Now if you want or need 50 or 60Mpx Leica is not in that game. They deliberately chose 37Mpx and again from the files I have seen they outperform my H3DII-39. Could be the lenses (I suspect so) or something rather special from the Maestro processor. I don't think it matters a fat ratz as Peter A would say. If the files are special, they are special. Trying to figure out why and speculating brings NO new information to the party. It is just that, speculation. Makes for some fun in the forums (or is it fora?)to give us something to do until Leica actually ships. I too hoped they would be shipping right now and I could be evaluating something real. But two months is not going to make a significant difference to me. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter and I now am sure I will get flamed as a Leica fanboy.

    Woody

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    Re: Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

    Quote Originally Posted by mtomalty View Post
    That the S2 is vaporware is not at issue.
    Many have held it, some have used it.
    He**, David Farkas has a review coming soon !

    Any mention if, at the S2 event, users will be able to bring their own
    card and leave with files?

    Mark
    www.marktomalty.com
    Yes, I've asked specifically. Users are welcome to bring their own cards and keep/publish the DNG files.

    The camera at PhotoPlus is a full production camera with final firmware.

    If anyone is planning on attending, I'll see you there!

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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