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Thread: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

  1. #51
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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Someone(s) needs to let this exchange go (or is it "these exchanges"?) and walk away... IMHO.

    This is a great forum, but checking back to this thread and others like it, when the index shows "new posts", is such a disappointment when the posts are of the nature we're seeing here. Not directing this at any one person, just hoping that everyone would rather make photos, or discuss real camera gear issues.

    I find it a bit perplexing in a forum such as this (not DPR, or LUF) that people have drawn teams. We're the users. We're all on one team. The manufactures and dealers are sort of on the other team, but ideally we should all work together to achieve a mutually beneficial goal. We need them and they need us. This recent climate is rather discomforting.

    Cheers,

    Dale

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    You know Dale you hit the nail on the head and I have come real close to locking this thread. I see way too much narrow minded thinking here especially on a product that is still a ghost in many ways. Either this turns around or I will lock this thread. I am getting e-mails , PM's and several reports that not all seems to be as projected . So folks bottom line there are no hard facts so please stop thinking there is. Bottom line new product new issues until proven otherwise. Just like anything else it NEEDS to be a PROVEN product.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  3. #53
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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Someone(s) needs to let this exchange go (or is it "these exchanges"?) and walk away... IMHO.
    HI Dale
    I would normally agree with you, I'm an easygoing kind of a guy, but I object to being called names once, and then being called names again when I protest seems to be more than a soul SHOULD have to bear.

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    I see this happening often when Leica products are involved. For some reason, people normally gentle as a lamb turn into fire-spewing monsters when Leica announces new products. It is like waving a red (dot) handkerchief in front of a bull (ignoring for the moment that they are colour-blind).
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    I understand, guys. I'm just hoping that it can be accepted that objections have been posted and noted by those of us reading.

    In other news: Today I was walking Silom Road, here in Bangkok where it's the rainy season (which is why I have my 5D here), I was getting soaking wet. I like to shoot here in the rain, and while I was walking to the United Airlines ticket office, through street markets, along vender's carts, etc., I was thinking how cool it would be to have a weather sealed S2 along instead (okay, a weather-sealed M9 would make more sense for today's walk). As a guy who really likes medium format digital files, and who likes to shoot in marginal weather, I wish that other makers would provide weather sealing as have Leica on the S2.


  6. #56
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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I understand, guys. I'm just hoping that it can be accepted that objections have been posted and noted by those of us reading.
    Fair enough Dale
    I would actually like to apologise for inflicting innocent bystanders with my grumpy responses

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    No worries guy's we are just better than fighting over this until we see more prove
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  8. #58
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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    The more i read, the more i like my teddy bear.......

  9. #59
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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Teddy bears have their place, but we're moving on now. We're back to discussing real gear and real features, real user-benefits and all that good stuff.

    Cheers.

  10. #60
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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No worries guy's we are just better than fighting over this until we see more prove
    Thanks Guy... I surely hop you guys continue to let "good will" be the mantra of choice here @ getdpi. There are other places one can go if vitriolic discourse is on the menu. There are people here I've never met personally (essentially everyone, lol) that I'd feel confident doing about anything for.

    ... and here we've all let Leica do this to us again

    Shelby
    (closet m9 "coveter")

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    ffffffffff . . . . takes deep breath!
    At least, it seems like there really will be some S2 images from production cameras to look at soon (from David Farkas and the other demonstrations).

    Let's hope we can all have some fun with them.
    Last edited by jonoslack; 22nd October 2009 at 09:00.

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Then comes the next tough question.....what to use for processing? C1 may be the choice, but if there is no support.... Then there is LR2, which is the shipping product with the S2, but it is not so great, as many know. However, there is now a LR3 beta, but it does not say anything about S2 files. Not to worry, we will get something figured out....

    Hey, if nothing else, we may have some new things to fret over and discuss with such great and maybe misplaced passion ;-) (Nobody get upset, please....just trying a bit of humor to keep tensions lowered.)

    LJ

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Then comes the next tough question.....what to use for processing? C1 may be the choice, but if there is no support.... Then there is LR2, which is the shipping product with the S2, but it is not so great, as many know. However, there is now a LR3 beta, but it does not say anything about S2 files. Not to worry, we will get something figured out....


    LJ
    I wonder if C1 will support it . . I'd guess that they will, it's one thing not wanting to ship with it, but something else not to support it. They were first off the block with the M9 (correct me if I'm wrong).

    I'll not be getting an S2, but I'll certainly be playing with files. If C1 won't open them yet (which I suspect), then Aperture certainly should, and Lightroom will as well. Both of these do a reasonable job with the M9 files, so I guess they will with the S2 files as well.

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    I wonder if C1 will work on the files out of the box, without special support of course, or if not, if using the Adobe DNG converter would make it work?

    Anyway, Lightroom 3 is meant to have noticeably improved noise reduction, so if they really deliver that, it would strike one of my 3 complaints about LR for high-end IQ. Working a bit with colour profiles and careful tuning with 24-path colour checkers might strike another, leaving just the sharpening, which can be done in another program if needed. It might then be possible to have a high-end workflow based on LR, which is an interesting option.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    HI Carsten
    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I wonder if C1 will work on the files out of the box, without special support of course, or if not, if using the Adobe DNG converter would make it work?
    It's possible, but I don't think that C1 has generic .dng support, so I suspect not. However, C1 supported the M9 almost from the day of launch, so maybe they'll support the S2 as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Anyway, Lightroom 3 is meant to have noticeably improved noise reduction, so if they really deliver that, it would strike one of my 3 complaints about LR for high-end IQ. Working a bit with colour profiles and careful tuning with 24-path colour checkers might strike another, leaving just the sharpening, which can be done in another program if needed. It might then be possible to have a high-end workflow based on LR, which is an interesting option.
    I wonder - I've stuck with Aperture because of the (IMHO) better DAM features and 'conversion'. Lightroom does have advantages though, not least Apple's apparent lack of interest in supporting new cameras . . . .well, old cameras too
    Changing over is such a big thing though, with a properly keyworded library of 30,000 pictures - not something to make a snap decision about!

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Personally, I don't think Cap 1 will support native Raw files from the S2
    The S2 has to be determined by them as directly competitive to their
    Phase and Leaf branded backs and to support makes no sense.

    The M9, or any hi MP count DSLR, do not compete directly in the same arena as
    the Phase family of backs regardless of what quality differences any of us see

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    I think that to stop C1 from supporting the S2 in a generic fashion would require some active coding, unless Jono is right, and there is simply no DNG support in place, other than special code for the M8/M9.

    Jono, can you not export as DNG with all your modifications included?
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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Any images from Photo Plus East yet?

    Robert

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Guys you appear to be talking about photography related things.

    Can we just drop all this photo talk and get back to arguing?

    Thanks in advance
    Nick-T

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Changing over is such a big thing though, with a properly keyworded library of 30,000 pictures - not something to make a snap decision about!
    Jono:

    Can't you write the keywords into the image files and then import these into lightroom?

    In Lightroom there is the option to write or read this info from the file.

    In other words, have Aperture just write these keywords into the metadata of the file and then import all the files into lightroom and then use the read metadata from files option to get the key words into your lightroom relational database.

    Robert

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I think that to stop C1 from supporting the S2 in a generic fashion would require some active coding, unless Jono is right, and there is simply no DNG support in place, other than special code for the M8/M9.

    Jono, can you not export as DNG with all your modifications included?
    HI Carsten
    I think you can do that (huge files), but I don't think they have 'generic' dng support which will open any dng file. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

    On the other hand, as far as I know there has been no 'falling out' between Leica and C1 over this (and I don't 'KNOW' anything other than what I've read on the net and implied from an obvious collaboration over the M9). Simply that a conflict of interests (obvious) meant that shipping C1 with the S2 would be odd - hence the change to Lightroom.

    If this is the case I would have thought that:
    1. Phase would be okay with supporting the S2 together with other competitors
    2. Leica would be pleased with the support.

    But I'm only guessing here.

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Jono:

    Can't you write the keywords into the image files and then import these into lightroom?

    In Lightroom there is the option to write or read this info from the file.

    Robert
    HI Robert
    Yes indeed . . . . but not the modifications you've made. The Albums, the web pages, the books, the slideshows . . . .

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    Guys you appear to be talking about photography related things.

    Can we just drop all this photo talk and get back to arguing?
    Hi Nick
    area you asking for a fight?

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    For Phase to support the S2, they would also have to have access to pre-production, development work of the S2. Leica may not have wanted this since Phase is a competitor. After the S2 is out and shipping it may not matter.

    Robert

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Robert
    Yes indeed . . . . but not the modifications you've made. The Albums, the web pages, the books, the slideshows . . . .
    You can always keep the two programs. Lightroom will import the files from their current location without moving them.

    Robert

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    You can always keep the two programs. Lightroom will import the files from their current location without moving them.

    Robert
    If the originals have been imported into the Aperture Library, you cannot easily get to them from Lightroom. You can, but the threads to get their would be a PITA to keep working with. The one option that I have used is to keep the original files in the file folder structure that I have used before Aperture, LR and other DAM apps. Then you just point to those as being linked, and you are able to work on them in Aperture and LR, I would presume.

    That requires having those folders live when you are in Aperture if you wanted to do anything besides just see the previews. (This is still a very helpful thing, as I can keep tons of files in external storage, which allows me to get at them with any app, but the previews get imported in Aperture, which I can then take with me on the laptop and show clients, etc. I just cannot make changes that will be stored at that time.)

    Jono, I am feeling the same bit of quandry about LR versus Aperture. I still like Aperture for lots of things that LR still cannot do, but Apple has not been keeping the update effort going there as they originally did. They will probably catch up with new profiles in a while (they go to the OS so they can be used in iPhoto and other apps as part of the CoreImage structure), but it is a bit frustrating not to have things updated (faster or at all) for some cameras.

    LJ

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Phase has a S2 for testing from what Leica told me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Phase has a S2 for testing from what Leica told me.
    Well, that could be very good news. Phase is not just competing with Leica on the S2 front, as has been mentioned, but they are also competing with Adobe on the processing side of things. Since LR3 may not be out for 4-6 months, Phase can make some real advances with folks by having some of their nicely tuned profiles in their next release of C1. Not knowing if they will or not, but it would just seem like a very natural extension for them to provide it for all those techs that may have to work with any S2 rentals they may run into.

    Keeping fingers crossed on that front.

    LJ

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    If the originals have been imported into the Aperture Library, you cannot easily get to them from Lightroom. You can, but the threads to get their would be a PITA to keep working with. The one option that I have used is to keep the original files in the file folder structure that I have used before Aperture, LR and other DAM apps. Then you just point to those as being linked, and you are able to work on them in Aperture and LR, I would presume.

    That requires having those folders live when you are in Aperture if you wanted to do anything besides just see the previews. (This is still a very helpful thing, as I can keep tons of files in external storage, which allows me to get at them with any app, but the previews get imported in Aperture, which I can then take with me on the laptop and show clients, etc. I just cannot make changes that will be stored at that time.)

    Jono, I am feeling the same bit of quandry about LR versus Aperture. I still like Aperture for lots of things that LR still cannot do, but Apple has not been keeping the update effort going there as they originally did. They will probably catch up with new profiles in a while (they go to the OS so they can be used in iPhoto and other apps as part of the CoreImage structure), but it is a bit frustrating not to have things updated (faster or at all) for some cameras.

    LJ
    HI There
    We're obviously in the same position - I've kept my files out of the Aperture library in my own file structure, so there really isn't a problem pointing Lightroom to the same files . . . the problem is all the modifications, albums etc.

    When Apple were a few months behind with cameras, I was just irritated, but these days they seem to be years behind (still no support for the d-lux4, G1 etc.) it wouldn't be so bad if they actually gave us some information about it, but it's silence as usual. I was hoping that the new core support would come with Snow Leopard, but, instead of that our printers don't work!

    What's always stopped me in the past is that the RAW support for cameras like the M8 and the A900 just hasn't been so good as Aperture, but LR3 looks different.

    I was hoping that Phase would put the DAM features into C1 5, but apparently not!

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Phase has a S2 for testing from what Leica told me.
    Hi There Guy
    Thanks for that - I hadn't asked the question, but the fact that they had an M9 early on in the process suggested to me that they would have an S2 as well.

    So there should be good support from C1 and Lightroom, and generic support in Aperture (and there generic support is pretty good anyway).

    Sounds like a reasonable start!

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I was hoping that Phase would put the DAM features into C1 5, but apparently not!
    Jono,
    We can keep asking and prodding, and it may come into consideration. Phase has a pretty powerful app in C1, and it could become the most preferred if it started to offer a few more of those features.

    Like you, I still have too many other things (books, Web pages, etc.) tied up in Aperture, which is really nice to have, so I do not really want to abandon it either. One way to manage the conversion, as was mentioned, would be to export a master with metadata and all, then import into LR3 or whatever else. That still does not solve those other problems. Instead, I may keep Aperture for doing just those selected things as needed....importing finished stuff from C1, LR3, PSD files, etc., and use it that way, while doing the heavy lifting with the others, if they do a better job. Right now, Aperture is doing a better job on many files compared to LR2, but unless they start to update things more fully, they will lose some followers.

    LJ

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    When Apple were a few months behind with cameras, I was just irritated, but these days they seem to be years behind (still no support for the d-lux4, G1 etc.) it wouldn't be so bad if they actually gave us some information about it, but it's silence as usual.
    My feeling about Apple is that their recent success means that they are de-emphasizing their pro programs, and are moving more mainstream.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Thanks for that - I hadn't asked the question, but the fact that they had an M9 early on in the process suggested to me that they would have an S2 as well.
    I don't think that necessarily follows. I presume that Phase's primary business is still backs, and not software. As such, the Leica S2 is a threat, and I don't think that Phase will make full support, like for their own backs. The 35mm FF SLRs are a different matter, in that they don't really compete in the same market.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Phase has a S2 for testing from what Leica told me.
    You're joking, right?

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Nick
    area you asking for a fight?
    If so, you can ask him about using the 28 HCD on a 'full frame' sensor :>))

  36. #86
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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by mtomalty View Post
    If so, you can ask him about using the 28 HCD on a 'full frame' sensor :>))
    The full frame of the 28 is caught on the sensor. Read carefully before you respond.

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    The starting thread title was inflammatory - perhaps the whole thread could have been stopped by simply removing the topic as it started.

    The types of discussion we are now having in the forums is far less friendly than a year ago - oh and FAR less interesting or informative.

    A year ago I knew who actually used what gear and at least had the sense that this or that person was talking from experience... these days?

    People should understand that here are many reasons why people choose this or that versus this or the other thing. RESPECT for people and their right to make their own decisions should be the first rule of engagement.

    I think all the companies should be treated with respect and encouraged to participate in the forum. Poeple should be allowed to make specific and technical criticism of this or that thing - however broad based cultural criticism of ANY company or fairy floss talk about eg STRATEGY and other BS - should be minimal.

    i come here to learn from other people's true experiences and share my own -frankly local yokel commentary on business strategy from peanuts that dont even own any gear - just makes me angry because it tells company reps to stay away from yet another crackpot inrternet forum.

    We dont ewant that do we?

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    The types of discussion we are now having in the forums is far less friendly than a year ago - oh and FAR less interesting or informative.

    A year ago I knew who actually used what gear and at least had the sense that this or that person was talking from experience... these days?
    Have to agree with you Peter and it has me scratching my head as to why this is the case...particularly here in the MF forum.

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    i come here to learn from other people's true experiences and share my own -frankly local yokel commentary on business strategy from peanuts that dont even own any gear - just makes me angry because it tells company reps to stay away from yet another crackpot inrternet forum.
    Companies don't brutally compare their cameras with other cameras shooting the exact same scenes under the exact same circumstances... most owners don't or can't do this either. That leaves us with all this ongoing emotional feelings about what we've spent vs. what other people have spent (or invest) or what we didn't spend vs. what someone else spent. Thus forums have become a place for people to beat their chests such that he who has spent the most is chief among us.

    Manufactures can participate by answering questions about their offerings or comparing their systems to others and give us real rock hard evidence about the differences. They have chosen the former and is probably the best path for them to take. Brands need people to be emotional about them in the face of what they and their customers really need after all.

    In short I think that everything is going according to human nature just fine. There is nothing that anyone is going to do to change unless HasselBlad, Mamiya, Phase, and Leica turn into charities to ease the sufferings of photographers. And unless photographers see each others as brothers (picture all of us locked arm in arm singing) then there is going to be ruffled feathers because we don't all own the same things largely because of financial differences.

    Who among us would not have at least one 1Ds Mark III or Nikon D3x, with a Phase p65+ or H4D-60 and a Leica M9 in our bag? Three cameras for every need. Well I think you know why nobody on this board has that. As financial tensions in our industry (from all the free work) along with economic tensions in our world increase these forums are only going to get more heated.

    It used to be that a man could afford his tools. I think it is fair to say that this is not the case for the photographic industry currently. All the skill and eye and whatever in the world does not earn one a p65+ when you just bought a P30+ two years ago now does it?

    Ahhh but is photography a trade or a hobby... that brings us a whole wash of persons not looking at things the same way... makes for even more emotions.

    Take care...

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Any images from Photo Plus East yet?

    Robert
    I popped off a few shots today with the s2 and have been looking at them via lightroom then into ps tonight.
    they had a model and a briese parabolic set up..shot with the 70 and 180
    and had it tethered to a macbook pro 15'' with lightroom.. images came up in about 5 secs low res on..then took about another 5 seconds to sharpen up to full res. they copied the shots onto the cf card I brought.
    the files are large.. 76mb as dng
    Leica said I could use/share as long as not in any advertising, I am open to suggestions on how to make available a couple of them here if others would like to check out.
    my feeling is the camera felt great and was quieter than I remember.

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Paul,

    Yousendit.com might be an option...

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    okay, I will use my yousendit acct and link to my dropbox
    there are 2 shots, one from the 70mm and one from the 180mm, straight from camera to lightroom and exported as dng..
    keep in mind that I just walked up and was handed the camera and fired away..
    the made it easy with a tech there and lighting was already set, iso 160 which their baseline.. I did not try a pull to 80 or a higher iso's - maybe someone else can show a higher asa shot.
    background was blk foamcore about 5 ft behind the model and was not pure black.
    Last edited by paulmoore; 22nd October 2009 at 21:15. Reason: fell asleep typing

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    frankly local yokel commentary on business strategy from peanuts that dont even own any gear - just makes me angry because it tells company reps to stay away from yet another crackpot inrternet forum.
    See how easy it is Peter.
    You've just contributed, exactly, the type of inflammatory comment
    that makes you angry.

    Yes, the thread title is suggestive but hardly inflammatory.
    A fair bit of BS has floated to the surface but, with it, some useful
    information and, hopefully, within a few hours people will include some
    actual S2 images for review.

    Mark

    www.marktomalty.com

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    If we get S2 support in C1, then the whole game will become totally different - at least for me.

    I know there are different opinions around, I am also using Aperture and LR, but I really like C1 and CS4 and this became my preferred workflow, regardless if some features are supported better in Aperture or LR.

    So end of the day the whole story might end up fine, have a S2 for light MF shooting and a Phase P40+ for the real MFDB flexibility if needed.

    I see one will end up with multiple systems also in the future

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    (snip) ... I see one will end up with multiple systems also in the future
    yeah, life is a never changing journey ...

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by mtomalty View Post
    Yes, the thread title is suggestive but hardly inflammatory.
    I agree with Peter here. Opening a thread with this title long before images are available just feels like a dig, and when I saw the thread pop up, my first thought was "here we go again". There are so many people willing to take a swing at Leica it isn't even funny, but in the end the "fanboy" moniker is used much more often, counter-intuitively.

    Personally, I would be happy to see this thread getting deleted, and perhaps Paul Moore starting a new one with the images he has posted.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I agree with Peter here. Opening a thread with this title long before images are available just feels like a dig, and when I saw the thread pop up, my first thought was "here we go again". There are so many people willing to take a swing at Leica it isn't even funny, but in the end the "fanboy" moniker is used much more often, counter-intuitively.

    Personally, I would be happy to see this thread getting deleted, and perhaps Paul Moore starting a new one with the images he has posted.
    HI Carsten
    Perhaps the controversial posts should be deleted rather than the whole thread?

    I'd be quite happy for that to happen, and I guess Peter would as well. It's pretty clear which are the offending, and which the constructive posts.

    Perhaps I'm too sensitive, but I find the 'fanboy' term really tricky, with it's combination of patronising and aggressive implication.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by pcunite View Post
    Thus forums have become a place for people to beat their chests such that he who has spent the most is chief among us.
    This has never and will never be the case. The guy who buys massive amounts of expensive equipment but cannot make top-notch photos has no stature whatsoever compared to the people making beautiful shots.

    Brands need people to be emotional about them in the face of what they and their customers really need after all.
    I disagree again. There is no need for this kind of chest-thumping. People buy systems to get work done or to enjoy their hobby, end of story. I see emotions about equipment as being similar to religion, it is a very personal thing, and going public with it is highly inappropriate. Chatting about appreciation of equipment is fine, but there is a fat line in the sand between that and proselytizing.

    And unless photographers see each others as brothers (picture all of us locked arm in arm singing) then there is going to be ruffled feathers because we don't all own the same things largely because of financial differences.
    I disagree yet again. Ultimately even the most expensive equipment is not above almost all of our reach, if we prioritize that way. Photo equipment just isn't that expensive. I realized yesterday that I could buy a H3DII-50 for 500/month for 3 years. Not exactly hardship, if I prioritize that way. Of course, most of us don't want to prioritize that way, but it isn't because we can't.

    Who among us would not have at least one 1Ds Mark III or Nikon D3x, with a Phase p65+ or H4D-60 and a Leica M9 in our bag? Three cameras for every need.
    Most of us on this forum, I bet. Having too much equipment is like too much bread and not enough butter, it dilutes our creativity. I deliberately chose to have only Leica M and MF, skipping the A900 I was lusting for, precisely because I don't want to be in a situation of choosing between systems for any given project. Look at others too. Guy is always trying to find the system which does everything he needs. 1 system. Jack also uses only MF, I think, or perhaps there is a second camera there somewhere. And so on. A few collect more, but interestingly, they also post less photos. Too much equipment dilutes you.

    It used to be that a man could afford his tools. I think it is fair to say that this is not the case for the photographic industry currently. All the skill and eye and whatever in the world does not earn one a p65+ when you just bought a P30+ two years ago now does it?
    The upgrade price is within reach, if the need is there. I would say that if the need is there, the income to manage the payments would also be there. I think that fiscal conservatism is more likely behind the decision not to upgrade than any actual barrier.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Carsten
    Perhaps the controversial posts should be deleted rather than the whole thread?
    I just skimmed the thread, and on page 1 there are two useful posts, one each from Woody and Peter A. On this page there is some interesting commentary, but about LR and Aperture, not about the S2. Then there are the images from Paul Moore. A total of three, useful, on-topic posts in an entire thread. I am still for the deletion of it. The three useful posts will be recreated very fast.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: FUN WITH LEICA S2 IMAGES

    Jezzo-pezzo guys, give it a rest.

    Wait until YOU can get your hands on one, or wait until someone YOU respect does. If it isn't until next year, so what?

    Man, nothing seems to inspire bickering like the word "Leica".

    Peace on the forum.

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