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Thread: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

  1. #451
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Sure they each have their strengths and weaknesses. My point is that despite the assertions of some, the Red Dot isn't the S2's only strength. I agree that until people actually start using them it's all hypothetical - but there is no other DMF camera that is weather-sealed, hypothetically or otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Vieri, that wasn't a hypothetical point Doug was trying to make; he is doing wildlife photography in all weather, and weather sealing would allow him to go MF (as long as Leica releases the 350mm on time ).
    Indeed, nor I ever said it was hypothetical; however, the way the rhetorical question was posed invited my answer (sort of an invitation to a polemicla dance...). Doug, of course the S2's only selling point isn't the Red Dot, and I am sure it will be a great camera. My (and others', as far as I can see here) point is that, except for some specific applications where some of its features are unique to the S2, for the general digital MF user there are other, equally if not more competent, alternatives available for much less dough... which, in the end, is good for us - as always competition is.
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  2. #452
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Indeed, nor I ever said it was hypothetical; however, the way the rhetorical question was posed invited my answer (sort of an invitation to a polemicla dance...). Doug, of course the S2's only selling point isn't the Red Dot, and I am sure it will be a great camera. My (and others', as far as I can see here) point is that, except for some specific applications where some of its features are unique to the S2, for the general digital MF user there are other, equally if not more competent, alternatives available for much less dough... which, in the end, is good for us - as always competition is.
    The S2 would have been perfect if it was a FF R10. It can't really compete in the 50+ mgpxl studio world and it costs too much to compete in the 35mm world. It is in it's own land which could be a good thing but, unfortunately it loses its battles agains 35mm ISO ceiling and MF pixel ceiling. They are taking on two markets without having the ability to beat either one of them. However, there was a loyal Leica base of supporters and those supporters (I used to be one of them) are a very forgiving bunch.

  3. #453
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    They are taking on two markets without having the ability to beat either one of them.
    That is quite a one-sided way of looking at the actual situation. Yes, those comparisons can be made, but realistically, for every feature of the 35mm throng or the MF crowd, the S2 does it either better or worse (or the same; but for argument's sake...). You can of course make a list of things that 35mm does better, and that MF does better, but you can equally well flip the examined feature set and end up with a list of things the S2 does better than 35mm, or MF.

    For example, the S2 does IQ and resolution better than 35mm, but does compactness, AF speed, weather sealing and shooting rate better than MF (except the Sensor+ modes with their low resolution). Just this example defines a target market for which the S2 is better than existing solutions. Other examples can also be made.
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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    ...

    For example, the S2 does IQ and resolution better than 35mm, but does compactness, AF speed, weather sealing and shooting rate better than MF (except the Sensor+ modes with their low resolution). Just this example defines a target market for which the S2 is better than existing solutions. Other examples can also be made.
    Very good analysis. The major points here are:
    - are there, and if so how many, users that live in the intersection group that you defined here;
    - are those above users ready to shell an amount of money that is:
    A. vastly superior to the equivalent amount for a 35 mm digital system, against which they would gain MP and IQ but loose a lot (speed, lens reach, high ISO, portability, etc);
    B. vastly superior to the equivalent amount for a MF digital system, against which they would gain weather sealing, AF, compactness & shooting rate and loose MP and IQ, flexibility of a separate back, completeness of the system etc.

    I guess time will tell...
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    but does compactness, AF speed, weather sealing and shooting rate better than MF (except the Sensor+ modes with their low resolution). Just this example defines a target market for which the S2 is better than existing solutions. Other examples can also be made.
    Has anyone tried or tested the AF speed compared to current MF solution?

    Similarly, has anyone tried the "finger down, count to 60" method shooting into a CF card and/ or tethered to a tower/ laptop?

    Any figures from the latter test available anywhere?

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Re R-10 versus S-2, if one considers it from the business side, I think the S2 makes a lot of good sense. Consider:

    * The R-10 would have required a complete re-design of the lenses anyway, specifically for AF but also optically to extract the most from direct digital capture;

    * The R-10 body would have a complete re-design for a unified digital body and the new lenses;

    * So if you're re-designing your lenses and bodies anyway, why not think outside the box for a minute;

    * Competing head-to head with the existing modular MF market is not particularly wise since they have entrenched markets that are tough to topple;

    * Competing with Canon, Nikon and Sony is not particularly wise since they have entrenched markets and their pricing is going to be tough to match;

    >>> Ergo, you probably look to build something hybridized... And what do you get? Probably a high-resolution, contemporary design body for convenient and familiar handling, unibody to keep size as small as possible and alignment issues optimally controlled, simple and elegant UI, and all this with the hopes of killer image quality. You then build killer lenses for it, an area where you have reigned superior for many years and have solid brand loyalty and recognition. (Let's face it, who'd be considering an S-2 body if it promised a new line of Panasonic lenses?) Moreover, if you do all of this properly, you won't have any need to re-design your "old" SLR system, saving tons of R&D coin.

    Personally, I think Leica hit the nail on the head with this. Is it a gamble? Sure. But IMO it bests the gamble of going to head-to-haed with Phase and Hassy on modular backs, and eliminates any head-to-head with Nikon or Canon lest they chase you. IOW, it was a smart business move if you're a smaller company, late to the table and want to stay in the imaging business... In fact the ONLY big hurdle they need to clear is price justification. And if the camera delivers in Aces, then that isn't going to be an issue anyway as every single person that wants one will find a way to get it, even if it means waiting three years to buy used.

    My .02 only,
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Has anyone tried or tested the AF speed compared to current MF solution?

    Similarly, has anyone tried the "finger down, count to 60" method shooting into a CF card and/ or tethered to a tower/ laptop?

    Any figures from the latter test available anywhere?
    Nothing yet but my fear on tethered work could be a sore spot. Will know soon enough. AF when i tried it back in prototype stage was okay but not anywhere near 35mm but hopefully when Jack and I test this with the new DF body we can do a head to head with the S2 on AF as well and see how it shakes out with a production unit.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Re R-10 versus S-2, if one considers it from the business side, I think the S2 makes a lot of good sense. Consider:

    * The R-10 would have required a complete re-design of the lenses anyway, specifically for AF but also optically to extract the most from direct digital capture;

    * The R-10 body would have a complete re-design for a unified digital body and the new lenses;

    * So if you're re-designing your lenses and bodies anyway, why not think outside the box for a minute;

    * Competing head-to head with the existing modular MF market is not particularly wise since they have entrenched markets that are tough to topple;

    * Competing with Canon, Nikon and Sony is not particularly wise since they have entrenched markets and their pricing is going to be tough to match;

    >>> Ergo, you probably look to build something hybridized... And what do you get? Probably a high-resolution, contemporary design body for convenient and familiar handling, unibody to keep size as small as possible and alignment issues optimally controlled, simple and elegant UI, and all this with the hopes of killer image quality. You then build killer lenses for it, an area where you have reigned superior for many years and have solid brand loyalty and recognition. (Let's face it, who'd be considering an S-2 body if it promised a new line of Panasonic lenses?) Moreover, if you do all of this properly, you won't have any need to re-design your "old" SLR system, saving tons of R&D coin.

    Personally, I think Leica hit the nail on the head with this. Is it a gamble? Sure. But IMO it bests the gamble of going to head-to-haed with Phase and Hassy on modular backs, and eliminates any head-to-head with Nikon or Canon lest they chase you. IOW, it was a smart business move if you're a smaller company, late to the table and want to stay in the imaging business... In fact the ONLY big hurdle they need to clear is price justification. And if the camera delivers in Aces, then that isn't going to be an issue anyway as every single person that wants one will find a way to get it, even if it means waiting three years to buy used.

    My .02 only,
    Add my 2 cents to this. This is just how I see it and, after playing around with the camera a bit yesterday, I think they accomplished this. Clearly not a system for everyone but it's perfect for the niche thats looking for this solution. I could see myself taking this camera on my travels where I'd otherwise leave my MF gear behind. IMHO, it blows away the 35mm offerings in terms of IQ and if it does nothing more than hold it's own with the other MF systems, it does so in a compact, hand-holdable form factor. With the market for luxury goods soaring once again I think it will sell briskly to the well heeled buyer.

  9. #459
    gdwhalen
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I'm not sure why I even commented again on the S2 subject. It has been so over examined, over discussed and is so personal to each member. I really liked my Leica gear. Now I really like my Hasselblad Hd3-50 and am very much looking forward to getting the 60 and more lenses. So.... I only wish the best for anyone that buys into Leica and I do hope that they survive. That is good for all of the end users.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    How about we wait until someone has some images to offer taken by themselves?
    -bob

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    georgl,
    i have an H2, but had no time to test it with P65+. so far i have used the P65+ only on my alpa max with rodenstock/schneider lenses. great!
    and i do not like even iso 200 on H3DII 50. but you will find less discriminating testers (luminous-landscape for example) who have a less
    critical view of high isos in MF.
    peter

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    The S2 is the successor of the S1, not DMR/M8/M9 which are developed & made by Imacon/Jenoptik.

    Phase and Hasselblad will go 40+MP (I don't think we will see anything but P40+/P65+ and H4D-50/60 in the future from them), the trade-off is size and speed.

    @Markowich
    You mentioned you used HC/Fuji-lenses with an P65+ - how did you do that, have you a H1/H2? And yes, I've used these lenses (although with film and a less demanding 39MP-back). They are good >f5.6 but in extreme situations you have to be careful if you really want to achieve significantly more performance than with the <40MP-backs.

    The actual size of the photodiodes of the Kodak/Dalsa-sensors is unknown, theoretically they are about 30% smaller than the previous 6.8m-generation - but most likely the fill-rate has been improved to compensate for that.
    You have an H3DII-50? So you know what to expect, same sensor + 2/3EV-1EV due to microlenses. I never got the chance to handle the 50MP-Hassi for a long time, but 400ASA (640ASA with S2?) looked quite well (and at least as good as 800ASA from DSLRs) from my memory.

    The P65+ is great, I had the chance to use it on an Alpa - but it's entirely different from the S2 and nearly twice as expensive (since everybody complains about the S2-price).

  12. #462
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Add my 2 cents to this. This is just how I see it and, after playing around with the camera a bit yesterday, I think they accomplished this. Clearly not a system for everyone but it's perfect for the niche thats looking for this solution. I could see myself taking this camera on my travels where I'd otherwise leave my MF gear behind. IMHO, it blows away the 35mm offerings in terms of IQ and if it does nothing more than hold it's own with the other MF systems, it does so in a compact, hand-holdable form factor. With the market for luxury goods soaring once again I think it will sell briskly to the well heeled buyer.
    and above base iso?
    peter

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    and above base iso?
    peter
    Peter,
    Didn't test for it and don't really plan to. My MF experience is limited to having used the Aptus 75S and now my Sinar e75LV kit and neither of those handled higher ISO's well unless there was lots of light. For low light shooting I've found my D3 better than anything else I've ever shot. For me there's no single solution system out there.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Peter,
    Didn't test for it and don't really plan to. My MF experience is limited to having used the Aptus 75S and now my Sinar e75LV kit and neither of those handled higher ISO's well unless there was lots of light. For low light shooting I've found my D3 better than anything else I've ever shot. For me there's no single solution system out there.
    david,
    i do agree with you...unfortunately. the S2 has something seductive to it, so i developed -rather irrationally - hope. but after all, my base iso requirements are well taken care of by the P65 and the H3D II 50, which i am going to swap for the H4D 60.
    peter

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    How about we wait until someone has some images to offer taken by themselves?
    -bob
    Exactly my thinking ... only I'd take that step further. Just thinking out loud here.

    I don't care what other people shoot. I care what I shoot ... so I need to do that before even considering this camera.

    I will be trying the camera soon, in the type of environment I tend to shoot in, shooting the type of subjects I capture for a living, processed the way I usually do.

    However, my expectations aren't to supplant DSLR applications in total ... just part of them. ISO performance needs to be workable not spectacular. What needs to be spectacular are shots like I've done on past shoots using a H3D-II/31... which I never expected to shoot in darker conditions either. My M9 and fast M lenses do that low light job quite nicely while delivering that Leica "something" I can't get with any DSLR .... and trust me, I've used them ALL.

    What the H3D-31 brought to the party was greater dynamic range and a tonal flexibility in truly horrid lighting, at shoot times I have no control over. Like at water's edge, or on the beach ... or anywhere at noon. I shoot in conditions like this as often as in dark reception halls. The other S2 plus is that it is a focal plane shutter camera with pretty fast lenses ... offering the option of leaf shutter should I pare down the H studio kit.


    I've sold off a ton of gear in preparation for the next move (thanks to the best F/S place on the internet ... kudos to Jack and Guy! ).

    By mid Dec. it will be decision time. Either upgrade the H3D-II 39 to the H4D/60, or stay pat with the MFD kit and go for the S2.

    Lots of info to gather before then.

    Marc



    This is the type of shot I used the H3D/31 for ... harsh dead overhead white out lighting where my second shooters DSLR stuff blocked up the shadows and/or blew the highlights ... and the H camera didn't.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    The S2 was for sure a very smart move, I agree with Jack and many others on this one.

    Especially if you do not need the "modularity" of todays MF systems with separate camera and back, which is in fact only mainly marketing, as all the cameras come with a dedicated back and is recommended to keep and use a specific bak only with the body you bought - at least this is true for Hasselblad and it might become very similar with Phase.

    Was thinking why I need a tech camera if I can do stitching and panos also differently? Why not always use the best part of you lens - even better if a Leica S lens - and produce the stuff you want? And a TS lens will also be available for those who really need this.

    End of the day the S System covers a nice area for many photographers, for some it might become even the "only one" system.

    And finally I do not doubt that Leica will deliver WRT IQ and at least be on par or what I geuss even much better than competition.

    Throw in my 2c

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Especially if you do not need the "modularity" of todays MF systems with separate camera and back, which is in fact only mainly marketing, as all the cameras come with a dedicated back and is recommended to keep and use a specific bak only with the body you bought - at least this is true for Hasselblad and it might become very similar with Phase.

    Was thinking why I need a tech camera if I can do stitching and panos also differently? Why not always use the best part of you lens - even better if a Leica S lens - and produce the stuff you want? And a TS lens will also be available for those who really need this.

    End of the day the S System covers a nice area for many photographers, for some it might become even the "only one" system.

    And finally I do not doubt that Leica will deliver WRT IQ and at least be on par or what I guess even much better than competition.

    Throw in my 2c
    Regarding Phase One dropping modularity: I sure hope not; there is no sign in either the history or present approach of the company to suggest this would change. The modularity is one of the strongest attributes of Phase's approach. As one example you can buy a P65+ Mamiya mount and use it with:
    Cambo Wide Compact (travel camera - very very small - great lenses)
    Cambo Wide RS (shift/tilt/swing/rise for PC or for stitching up to around 200mp within one continous image circle)
    Cambo Ultima 2x3 (full sized view camera for still life etc)
    Phase One DF (autofocus, autoexposure, leaf shutter lenses, focal plane lenses, pinhole, exotic macro)
    Mamiya RZ Pro IID (large waist level viewfinder, old mechanical feel, traditional lens feel)

    With all these ways to use your one digital back there are hundreds of lenses each with different looks/feels/lengths/attributes. Each body excels at some things and is weak in others - you can use the body appropriate for your application.

    As regards pan-and-stitch versus shooting a tech camera and using it's large image circles to stitch-within-the-image-circle: they are different approaches each with advantages and disadvantages. One advantage of the pan-and-stitch is you can go as wide as you wish (even up to 360 degrees!). One advantage of stitch-within-the-image-circle is you don't lose any part of the frame due to the geometric distortions used to deform and combine the frames in a pan-and-stitch. It's also nice to see the final composition in-camera rather than simply shotgun a scene with a wider-than-needed pan-and-stitch and crop in post - however, that's definition an opinion/personal-decision.

    Note however that with a technical camera you could also pan-and-stitch where it is the better option (e.g. for 180 degree images) whereas with an SLR you can only pan-and-stitch.

    I don't think anyone here doubts that the S-lenses will be very good; however, it's very unlikely that they will significantly out perform the Schneider/Rodenstock digitar/HR large format lenses in real-world results. There is simply too much of an advantage that Schneider/Rodenstock have in designing lenses with no autofocus, no restraint on rear-flange distance (so retro focus elements don't need to be included), no electrical contacts, and the ability to allow the lens to be a "slow" lens (e.g. f/4 or f/5.6). All lens design is a trade off and Schneider/Rodenstock have the blessing (based on purposeful market positioning) of being able to sacrifice almost everything in pursuit of the absolute best possible final image quality.

    All cameras are just a set of priorities and compromises. The S2 looks like it will be a great way to carry very high quality in a easy to use weather sealed, modestly more compact, AF/AE body. However, it will have it's compromises as well (limited lens selection, very limited tilt-shift options etc).

    Also a quick note that we have a Cambo Tilt-Swing 47mm XL here at the office (delivered in person by Renee from Cambo) and will be testing it this week. The ability to add precise tilt-swing as well as shift/rise/fall to almost every large format lens is a major major advantage of the tech cameras that support it (Cambo/Arca). Only the Schneider 24/35 and Rodenstock 23 will not be able to made in a tilt-swing variety and those lenses are so wide that tilt/swing is not really critical. Every other Digitar/HR lens can have tilt/swing/rise/fall with the Cambo system. My personal guess is that I will be using 1.5 degrees of tilt as my default for landscape from which I will decide if I want more or less tilt for a given scene.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    "it's very unlikely that they will significantly out perform the Schneider/Rodenstock digitar/HR large format lenses in real-world results"

    I had the chance to take a few shots with Rodenstock-lenses and a P65+ on an Alpa. I don't even think ANY lens could perform better on such a back, they're so close to perfect! MTF looks similar with the S-lenses and that's the trick: It's not about having the fastest, most compact, most rugged, cheapest or high-res system but a clever compromise which makes it usable for many demanding situations. Most 35mm-DSLR-shooters are already shocked when they handle a MF-SLR the first time - but have you ever seen these folks handling an Alpa or tech-camera?

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    "it's very unlikely that they will significantly out perform the Schneider/Rodenstock digitar/HR large format lenses in real-world results"

    I had the chance to take a few shots with Rodenstock-lenses and a P65+ on an Alpa. I don't even think ANY lens could perform better on such a back, they're so close to perfect! MTF looks similar with the S-lenses and that's the trick: It's not about having the fastest, most compact, most rugged, cheapest or high-res system but a clever compromise which makes it usable for many demanding situations. Most 35mm-DSLR-shooters are already shocked when they handle a MF-SLR the first time - but have you ever seen these folks handling an Alpa or tech-camera?
    I think that just about sums it up. "A clever compromise which make it usable for many demanding situations".

    Of course I reserve my final judgement until December 3 when we do our hands on testing of a production model to see if the "actual" lives up to the "theoretical".

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    "it's very unlikely that they will significantly out perform the Schneider/Rodenstock digitar/HR large format lenses in real-world results"

    I had the chance to take a few shots with Rodenstock-lenses and a P65+ on an Alpa. I don't even think ANY lens could perform better on such a back, they're so close to perfect! MTF looks similar with the S-lenses and that's the trick: It's not about having the fastest, most compact, most rugged, cheapest or high-res system but a clever compromise which makes it usable for many demanding situations. Most 35mm-DSLR-shooters are already shocked when they handle a MF-SLR the first time - but have you ever seen these folks handling an Alpa or tech-camera?
    i do agree with you. P65+ on alpa with schneider digitar or rodenstocks....nothing comes close in (base iso) IQ.
    peter

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    That is perhaps my main problem with the S2. I need a tech camera, because one can't shoot any architecture with just a 30TSE, when it actually comes out. Stitching without shifting only the back is no real alternative. No here is the problem. I could use the S2, for many things, however it would not and can't replace a DSLR system. Which would leave it as a third system. Here strikes the price. Just for the price for one lens, I can buy the new 1DsMk4 or Sony camera when it comes out and can use all my great glass. (Zeiss, Leica, longer Canon stuff) Sure it won't be a S2, but than again it will enable me to save around 40k.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    i do agree with you. P65+ on alpa with schneider digitar or rodenstocks....nothing comes close in (base iso) IQ.
    peter
    Well I can tell you right now there is not much difference with the P40+ either. It's basically a crop. Obviously it would cut down on MAJOR big size printing compared to the 65 but you get the idea and we are talking big here. It's the same sensor in a crop package. Why I want one.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well I can tell you right now there is not much difference with the P40+ either. It's basically a crop. Obviously it would cut down on MAJOR big size printing compared to the 65 but you get the idea and we are talking big here. It's the same sensor in a crop package. Why I want one.
    Guy,

    go for it - do not wait any longer!

    Definitely a great back. If I would decide for Phase I would take the P40+

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well I can tell you right now there is not much difference with the P40+ either. It's basically a crop. Obviously it would cut down on MAJOR big size printing compared to the 65 but you get the idea and we are talking big here. It's the same sensor in a crop package. Why I want one.
    because of the crop ---)))))http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    I'm not sure why I even commented again on the S2 subject. It has been so over examined, over discussed and is so personal to each member. (...)
    It's the headline of this thread that is misleading. A bit like an "Even more fun with Leica S pictures" thread months before the system is released

    I follow this thread with great interest simply because I find the strategy interesting as a business case. And I think basically that is what we are discussing here.
    I agree with Jack that the format, the mount, and the whole form factor may be a wise move.
    But I personally believe Leica gets vulnerable by choosing to position itself as a hyperexpensive luxury item brand rather than a competitive quality tools brand.
    Hopefully (and probably) Leica is right and I'm wrong. I assume they did their homework analyzing the camera market and its fast development, but I need to admit that so far I don't understand their strategy.
    I'm looking forward to learn more.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    I know, I know and I really like the P65+ no doubt but for me it is more than I need but certainly the bad *** that it is.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    It's the headline of this thread that is misleading. A bit like an "Even more fun with Leica S pictures" thread months before the system is released

    I follow this thread with great interest simply because I find the strategy interesting as a business case. And I think basically that is what we are discussing here.
    I agree with Jack that the format, the mount, and the whole form factor may be a wise move.
    But I personally believe Leica gets vulnerable by choosing to position itself as a hyperexpensive luxury item brand rather than a competitive quality tools brand.
    Hopefully (and probably) Leica is right and I'm wrong. I assume they did their homework analyzing the camera market and its fast development, but I need to admit that so far I don't understand their strategy.
    I'm looking forward to learn more.
    That is probably the best summation I've heard yet.

    "Competitive Quality Brand of tools."

    Perhaps more than in other areas of photo gear, LF and MF exemplifies this mindset when it comes to consumer expectations. Finely crafted tools with precision operation and build quality as their hallmarks.

    Whether one likes a camera like the Hasselblad H or not, it is well made, and quite precise in operation. Or a finely made view camera ... or tech camera like the Alpa. The competitive set is well established ... and no doubt the S2 will meet those expectations ... but at a price point one would expect it to exceed these already lofty expectations.

    Remains to be seen. The eye and hand of the "supposed" target for this camera is well schooled in fine photographic tools.

    -Marc

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Leica is simply trying to redefine photography - high end and pro photography - with their S System. The invented 35mm and they were successful with that (M System) before they started a more following role during the Japanese DSLR boom.

    Now they try to just redefine everything and I can tell you what, aside from any investment thoughts one has made, this is just the right and most appealing thing for me.

    If I were to define a new system with my knowledge of what is available today, what can be improved and existing market shares and having in the back of my head what my company can do best, I would most probably come up with a very similar solution. Now Leica obviously did that already some 5 years ago, before they started development of the S System.

    I only can say, the longer I watch and follow this, the more impressed I am.

    I wish them that they can make the go to market as effective and successful as they did the design and development part.

    Kudos Leica!

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    If I were to define a new system with my knowledge of what is available today, what can be improved and existing market shares and having in the back of my head what my company can do best, I would most probably come up with a very similar solution.
    IMHO, keeping a 3:2 aspect ratio was S T U P I D. Personally, I much prefer 4:3...
    Jack
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    IMHO, keeping a 3:2 aspect ratio was S T U P I D. Personally, I much prefer 4:3...
    Jack

    This is why I said I would come up with a very SIMILAR solution

    Never the less I am sure they will be successful

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Personally I'm completely with you on that, Jack. With 3:2 I find myself cropping from the sides again and again.
    But the sensor ratio could easily be changed in the S3 as long as they stay within the image circle

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    To me this is one big downfall is the 3:2 aspect ratio. I have really grown to love 4:3 . I very very very rarely ever crop a image. I think Leica did this to maintain height on the camera . It would have changed the mirror box for sure which would make it taller for sure. Another thing to consider when comparing against 645 system is they are not as wide as the S2 but taller. More boxy if you will. Pick your poison here but I would have preferred the 4:3 ratio on the S2
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    To me this is one big downfall is the 3:2 aspect ratio. I have really grown to love 4:3 . I very very very rarely ever crop a image. I think Leica did this to maintain height on the camera . It would have changed the mirror box for sure which would make it taller for sure. Another thing to consider when comparing against 645 system is they are not as wide as the S2 but taller. More boxy if you will. Pick your poison here but I would have preferred the 4:3 ratio on the S2

    Which leads to an interesting question. Would a larger (different aspect ratio) sized sensor fit into the S2 camera, and would existing lenses accommodate one?

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Personally I'm completely with you on that, Jack. With 3:2 I find myself cropping from the sides again and again.
    But the sensor ratio could easily be changed in the S3 as long as they stay within the image circle
    Except they've now designed the flange-focal and mirror in the body for the existing (shorter) sensor height, so they're stuck with that limitation. Had they gone 4:3 for the same Image Circle to begin with, the body would have been a little thicker to accommodate the taller mirror required for the taller (but narrower) sensor, and the lens flange focal would be longer than it is now to clear that taller mirror when it flips up. Unfortunately, while it's really easy to mount a lens with a longer flange focal to a camera with a shorter one via a simple tube adapter, it is impossible to do it the other way around and maintain infinity focus. The ONLY solution for that direction is an optical adapter which has to increase the effective focal by some percentage.

    IMO this is one design area on the S2 where Leica screwed themselves bigtime...

    (And yes, I KNOW the Leica fan club will chime in that they actually prefer 3:2 over 4:3, so it's no issue for them )
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    You are assuming that the lenses and the mirror leave no room for a larger mirror. That may not be true. Anyway, I doubt Leica would leave 3:2, which probably has more fans than 4:3 does.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Interesting Carsten than what is the design market on this cam . Wedding , Fashion and whatever . Question what is the most popular print size in almost any market especially wedding 8X10, 16x20. They are the lifeblood of the wedding market and actually the gold standard size since I started 34 years ago is 8 x 10. Almost every paper you can buy is 8x10 than what 16x20 and 11 x14 never really made the grade assumption on that one but the industry standard since the beginning of time was 8x10. What is the best format for 8x10 4:3. So who are they really targeting here one has to wonder . 3:2 fits no standard in the industry even though it has been around a long time it never fit the standard paper size. I find that part quite interesting, as much as we may not want to admit it this industry is formed and driven by wedding shooters and portrait shooter to a very large extent. Did you ever ask for a 7 x10 print or whatever that size is. How we actually got to 3:2 is quite amazing when the industry set all paper standards at 8x10

    Obviously a whole thread can be written by this alone and it is quite interesting how some things never changed even though a tremendous amount of pressure from the 35mm format
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    16x20 and 8x10 are North American sizes. The European sizes and ratios are different (narrower) and I don't know what is going on in Asia. I don't know where the S2 target market is either Anyway 5:4 would be better for those paper sizes than 4:3. Maybe someone should even make a 6x7" sensor

    Anyway, if Leica's gamble is to catch 1Ds3 and D3x users who want to step up, then 3:2 is probably more appealing to those photographers, regardless of paper sizes.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Interesting Carsten than what is the design market on this cam . Wedding , Fashion and whatever . Question what is the most popular print size in almost any market especially wedding 8X10, 16x20. They are the lifeblood of the wedding market and actually the gold standard size since I started 34 years ago is 8 x 10. Almost every paper you can buy is 8x10 than what 16x20 and 11 x14 never really made the grade assumption on that one but the industry standard since the beginning of time was 8x10. What is the best format for 8x10 4:3. So who are they really targeting here one has to wonder . 3:2 fits no standard in the industry even though it has been around a long time it never fit the standard paper size. I find that part quite interesting, as much as we may not want to admit it this industry is formed and driven by wedding shooters and portrait shooter to a very large extent. Did you ever ask for a 7 x10 print or whatever that size is. How we actually got to 3:2 is quite amazing when the industry set all paper standards at 8x10

    Obviously a whole thread can be written by this alone and it is quite interesting how some things never changed even though a tremendous amount of pressure from the 35mm format
    It's a 10" X 7.5"

    As far as wedding albums are concerned, ratio is no longer the driving aspect. All shapes and crops are used in bound albums, and the traditional ones acknowledged the 35mm film ratio long ago with mats for 7X10 image area.

    What still lags are the mat and frame choices available ... drives me nuts when clients order 8X10s from a 35mm image.

    -Marc

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    16x20 and 8x10 are North American sizes. The European sizes and ratios are different (narrower) and I don't know what is going on in Asia. I don't know where the S2 target market is either Anyway 5:4 would be better for those paper sizes than 4:3. Maybe someone should even make a 6x7" sensor

    Anyway, if Leica's gamble is to catch 1Ds3 and D3x users who want to step up, then 3:2 is probably more appealing to those photographers, regardless of paper sizes.
    I agree and maybe more there thinking. Honestly who knows and to be honest beaten to death. Just want to test the damn thing and get on with it if you know what i mean. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It's a 10" X 7.5"

    As far as wedding albums are concerned, ratio is no longer the driving aspect. All shapes and crops are used in bound albums, and the traditional ones acknowledged the 35mm film ratio long ago with mats for 7X10 image area.

    What still lags are the mat and frame choices available ... drives me nuts when clients order 8X10s from a 35mm image.

    -Marc
    I know and shooting for 8x10 with 35mm is a royal PITA.

    Oh well time for me to go make some money, damn 12 year old eats like a adult now. LOL Check in later
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Interesting Carsten than what is the design market on this cam . Wedding , Fashion and whatever . Question what is the most popular print size in almost any market especially wedding 8X10, 16x20. They are the lifeblood of the wedding market and actually the gold standard size since I started 34 years ago is 8 x 10. Almost every paper you can buy is 8x10 than what 16x20 and 11 x14 never really made the grade assumption on that one but the industry standard since the beginning of time was 8x10. What is the best format for 8x10 4:3. So who are they really targeting here one has to wonder . 3:2 fits no standard in the industry even though it has been around a long time it never fit the standard paper size. I find that part quite interesting, as much as we may not want to admit it this industry is formed and driven by wedding shooters and portrait shooter to a very large extent. Did you ever ask for a 7 x10 print or whatever that size is. How we actually got to 3:2 is quite amazing when the industry set all paper standards at 8x10

    Obviously a whole thread can be written by this alone and it is quite interesting how some things never changed even though a tremendous amount of pressure from the 35mm format
    In our lab, we turn out quite a lot of 4x6, 8x12, 12x18, 14x20, and 20x30 prints, which are all 2:3. Wedding deliverables have changed over the years and most presentation is now in coffee table-style albums. These range from square 10x10s (which have 10x20 2-page spreads) to 10x20s (folding out to a whopping 10x40). Long is in with clients who are used to their 16:9 LCD TVs and 16:10 computer monitors.

    Magazine print work is still 8.5x11 for the most part, but 2-page spreads are 11x17 across (almost perfect 2:3). For 8.5x11, you could crop the heck out of just about any camera today and it would still look fine. Billboards are also very long and narrow, as are bus and subway ads.

    There have always been different formats with different ratios (4x5, 6x17, 6x9, 6x7, 6x6, 6x4.5, 24x36mm) with film. I don't think anything has changed. Every photographer has his or her way of seeing the world. Different aspect ratios for different tastes.

    David
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    In Europe the UK is the only place that still clings to the 4:5 ratio for printing. Even there it's dying rapidly. Leica being a european manufacturer, (heck the 3:2 ratio was invented by Leica was it not?) I'd assume that they would not be as tied mentally to the 4:5 standard of the US market. Americans do seem to think that just because they use a standard that everyone else does or will have to conform. Big market yes, I'd say though that for Leica the US is just one and probably not the biggest market by any means. What is the standard in Japan I wonder?

    As far as the wedding market is concerned in the UK, 8X10" is dying rapidly, Graphistudio who are by far the most popular storybook album manufacturer use either square or 8X12"(2:3), 10X14" (5:7), A3 (4:3), etc. The biggest 'traditional' album manufacturer, Spicer Hallfield, has gone out of business, the remaining option for traditional albums is Mario Acerboni and only a fraction of their albums are still in the 4:5 ratio. The options are square, 2:3 or 4:3. 8X10" is still popular as a print size, I still shoot leaving room for it, I have the lines marked on my viewfinder with pencil. I won't miss it when it goes however. I never liked the ratio much prefering 7:5 over 2:3 or 4:5.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Interesting. I almost always crop my 35's to 4:3 and almost always cropped my 4x5's to 4:3. Vertical 3:2 looks skinny, horizontal or vertical 5:4 both look chubby to me... If I make a pano it is usually 5:2 or 3:1 as I find those more visually appealing than 16:9. 3:2 is okay for some horizontals, but to me generally seems either too wide or not wide enough, rarely just right. OTOH, 4:3 seems to work for anything. Oh, and I *really* like 1:1 too!
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Interesting. I almost always crop my 35's to 4:3 and almost always cropped my 4x5's to 4:3. Vertical 3:2 looks skinny, horizontal 5:4 looks chubby... If I make a pano it is usually 5:2 or 3:1 as I find those more visually appealing than 16:9. 3:2 is okay for some horizontals, but to me generally seems either too wide or not wide enough.
    As I said, Jack, everyone has their own preferences. The great thing is that in the digital age, we can print any size we want and present electronically in any aspect ratio we choose. No longer are we bound by the constraints of "standard" print sizes, slide mounts, etc. Even for large gallery prints, mats and frames are routinely cut to size.

    I like 2:3. It's what I'm used to. And, I like my skinny verticals, thank you very much.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Oh, and I *really* like 1:1 too!
    I am rather fond of it as well!

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Nah, you can't beat a 1:2!

    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    My favorite is also 1:1. 6x6, to be more specific

    I also like 4:3 and 4:5, but for horizontals I often prefer 3:2. For verticals I would take 4:3 over 3:2. More context, somehow.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    As I said, Jack, everyone has their own preferences. The great thing is that in the digital age, we can print any size we want and present electronically in any aspect ratio we choose. No longer are we bound by the constraints of "standard" print sizes, slide mounts, etc. Even for large gallery prints, mats and frames are routinely cut to size.

    I like 2:3. It's what I'm used to. And, I like my skinny verticals, thank you very much.

    David
    David,

    I totally agree it's up to the artist! Moreover, I would be all for a camera with a ROUND sensor that matched the lens IC so I could crop after the fact to any aspect ratio I wanted. Of course this design would be supported by an electronic VF that allowed me to set the desired framing at capture, which would also eliminate the mirror clearance issue
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Nothing yet but my fear on tethered work could be a sore spot. Will know soon enough. AF when i tried it back in prototype stage was okay but not anywhere near 35mm but hopefully when Jack and I test this with the new DF body we can do a head to head with the S2 on AF as well and see how it shakes out with a production unit.
    I've shot it tethered, and it worked just fine. I then tried to compare it to the P45+ by shooting that tethered immediately afterwards and I got DB problem error messages so often that I had to un-tether, restart the software and the back almost for every shot until I gave up!

    That it not my usual experience of the Phase tether but I have certainly had it happen a few times.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Well I think most people will prefer 3:4 once they shot with it for some time. Before getting to MF I quite liked 2:3 and thought that it is great, after shooting MF for a over a year now I checked my LR catalogue and nearly 80% of my Canon and Leica files are now closer to 3:4 than 2:3. That kinda shocked me. I think 2:3 is quite ugly most of the time, it is just not narrow enough or to narrow. I love anything from 1:2 and wider, but can't stand 2:3 anymore.

    I'm pretty sure that most people would prefer 3:4 of they used it for some time along with 2:3.

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