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Thread: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    The other issue is we will be limited by what lenses we actually get --- probably only the Leica 70 and 180, since I think those are all that are currently available... we may actually compare the Phase 80 and older Mamiya 200 APO to keep relative image magnifications reasonably similar, using a crop on my P45+ to 15% larger than the S2 sensor since my lenses are roughly 15% longer. We'll do our best, but any time you are comparing one sensor of different pixel pitch, size and/or aspect ratio to another, it gets complicated very quickly.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Agreed. The P40+ sensor and S2 sensor sizes are essentially the same size except aspect ratio (4x3 versus 3x2 respectively). In other words an object in the center of the frame wil appear essentially the same size in the resulting images from both cameras with the sme focal length lens. The 80D corners were not good on the "one" image shot with a P65 that I saw and that was not at max aperature. That should improve on the smaller sensor of the P40+ and a more controlled comparison.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    The problem with comparing the Leica 180mm with the Mamiya 200 APO is that if the Leica should come out on top, everyone will forever be saying "yeah, but the 150D would have trounced it"

    I would use the best lenses from both system in as close to the same focal length, i.e. the 80D and 150D, and then use your feet to frame the shots the same. That is how they would be used in the studio or field anyway. If you also test the 200 APO, that is just a bonus.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Exactly both Jack and Mark. Lot's of variables which makes apples to oranges in a hurry here . What we expect is things will be similar and if Leica can achieve MF levels than that is a feat for them. Personally I'm not looking for some kind of winner thing here so my yada yada yada can get excited. Sorry ladies it had to be said. What I expect and hope for Leica is they can enter this market with great clean files and system that adds to our choices. That is good for the industry PERIOD. I don't sell these and don't care about market share or anything else , i want product that works. That is what we should be looking for.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I would use the best lenses from both system in as close to the same focal length, i.e. the 80D and 150D, and then use your feet to frame the shots the same. That is how they would be used in the studio or field anyway. If you also test the 200 APO, that is just a bonus.
    Well then, when you do the test you can do it your way .

    Guy and I have been testing for a long time, and bottom line is we know that no matter what we do or how we do it, there will always be folks complaining we should have done it differently. Bottom is you'll all get from us what you get, which is how WE shoot and work. Beyond that, you can choose to take all of it, none of it, or whichever bits and pieces you want!

    What we'll be more focused on (pun intended!) is the relative strengths of each system, and why someone might choose one over the other -- or even BOTH! We will leave price comparisons out of our review, since that factor is different for everybody -- and some will not care at all if it costs them $100,000 to get into a system, while others will baulk at a difference of a few hundred dollars...

    Cheers,
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Well then, when you do the test you can do it your way .

    Guy and I have been testing for a long time, and bottom line is we know that no matter what we do or how we do it, there will always be folks complaining we should have done it differently. Bottom is you'll all get from us what you get, which is how WE shoot and work. Beyond that, you can choose to take all of it, none of it, or whichever bits and pieces you want!

    What we'll be more focused on (pun intended!) is the relative strengths of each system, and why someone might choose one over the other -- or even BOTH! We will leave price comparisons out of our review, since that factor is different for everybody -- and some will not care at all if it costs them $100,000 to get into a system, while others will baulk at a difference of a few hundred dollars...

    Cheers,
    Absolutely agree, no matter what you do you will always get complaints from someone

    Anyway I encourage you to do YOUR tests and let us know the results, I guess that everyone who has some decent photographic experience over a decent time will be able to draw some right conclusions out of this. And more such test will never be able to bring, the only thing what might happen if you do all too "scientific" that your end up wrong.

    I am more than confident that you will do the right things!

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Frankly, I don't expect that you will test any different than as if you were thinking about purchasing the system (Guy? ) - you will test what is important to you. I expect a lot of the things that matter to y'all will also matter to the rest of us so your opinions will be meaningful.

    Also, Guy don't kid yourself by thinking you don't sell this stuff. You may not get a commision check, but I'm sure you have sold tons of stuff over the years by expressing your opinion. If not, then Lecia probably wouldn't be sending you stuff for review. I know you well enough to know you will not suger coat anything so the stuff you indirectly sell has to be good on it's own. Nothing wrong with that.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    guy I picture you with that bill murray backpack on when out testing the s2.. guess you are now an official ghostbuster. I am getting my head around the new lightroom and while I was not in the mood to learn yet another raw processor it has some good improvements.. get yourself a trial beta3 vs lr2.5. I was able to correct the s2 raws I shot last week very easily..I can count on you to use a good color chart! too bad no 35mm to try out yet.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Thanks Paul BTW I think I downloaded some of yours and they really gave me a clue on it. I know more testing obviously and tuned software but some of it looked good so far. What i have seen i pretty much expected, all these sensors are relatively the same . It will come down to software , profiles, firmware and glass in the end on how it does. Just all of it needs fine tuning which for a new systems is completely expected.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    Frankly, I don't expect that you will test any different than as if you were thinking about purchasing the system (Guy? ) - you will test what is important to you. I expect a lot of the things that matter to y'all will also matter to the rest of us so your opinions will be meaningful.

    Also, Guy don't kid yourself by thinking you don't sell this stuff. You may not get a commision check, but I'm sure you have sold tons of stuff over the years by expressing your opinion. If not, then Lecia probably wouldn't be sending you stuff for review. I know you well enough to know you will not suger coat anything so the stuff you indirectly sell has to be good on it's own. Nothing wrong with that.
    Thanks Mark I certainly never want to hear I steered someone wrong. That is a cardinal sin in my book especially at these expenses.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Well then, when you do the test you can do it your way .

    Guy and I have been testing for a long time, and bottom line is we know that no matter what we do or how we do it, there will always be folks complaining we should have done it differently. Bottom is you'll all get from us what you get, which is how WE shoot and work. Beyond that, you can choose to take all of it, none of it, or whichever bits and pieces you want!

    What we'll be more focused on (pun intended!) is the relative strengths of each system, and why someone might choose one over the other -- or even BOTH! We will leave price comparisons out of our review, since that factor is different for everybody -- and some will not care at all if it costs them $100,000 to get into a system, while others will baulk at a difference of a few hundred dollars...

    Cheers,
    Jack and Guy

    I think the value of you guys shooting the comparisons is that we have been watching your work for almost three years now. We have a good idea of how you work and what you value. That is especially true of those of us who have attended workshops.

    So while others of us may value different things and shoot and process somewhat differently, we have your previous work and then what you shoot with the S2 and your comparison choices to get some realistic understanding.

    Ultimately the choice of cameras comes down to how i shoot and what I value. No way I would spend the money to purchase a S2 or for that matter any other MF digital camera without the ability to use it for a couple of days. I don't mind paying the rental fees (assuming they can be applied to the purchase if I decide to buy right away)

    Just my thoughts and opinions

    Woody

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Thanks Woody and totally agree. One should get to play with this before signing any check no matter what the reviews and test say. We all work differently and all have different expectations of what the gear should do for the shooter.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Jack and Guy

    I think the value of you guys shooting the comparisons is that we have been watching your work for almost three years now. We have a good idea of how you work and what you value. That is especially true of those of us who have attended workshops.

    So while others of us may value different things and shoot and process somewhat differently, we have your previous work and then what you shoot with the S2 and your comparison choices to get some realistic understanding.

    Ultimately the choice of cameras comes down to how i shoot and what I value. No way I would spend the money to purchase a S2 or for that matter any other MF digital camera without the ability to use it for a couple of days. I don't mind paying the rental fees (assuming they can be applied to the purchase if I decide to buy right away)

    Just my thoughts and opinions

    Woody
    Not sure I came across clearly.

    Point being is that we know your shooting styles and standards from three years experience watching your work.

    My hope is that what we will now see is what you two can do with this tool, already knowing what your goals are (or at least close to it)

    My plan is to view your work and to see what you pros can wring from this body and the lenses. If you are not able to do better than Phase or Mamiya standards, then we amateurs are pretty much in no man's land with great expenses to get there.

    If you are able to do really well, then I would take the next step to get a demo of the S2 and a couple of lenses for a day or two and then see what my shooting style will produce for me.

    If both experiences prove to get results that are salable and fun, then I might plop for the bucks to acquire this system.

    I have heavy hopes for this based on previous experiences with Leica, and want very much for this platform to be all it is intended to be.

    But at this price, seeing is believing.

    Hope I made some sense with this clarification

    Best

    Woody Spedden

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Total sense. Could not say it any better myself and exactly the plan anyone considering purchasing it. Not something you just throw
    money at without carefull evaluation.
    No system is and given it is not a proven system yet even more so.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    For me the S System could be the solution - even for landscape and nature photography the 37MP should be more than enough, especially if in combination with the Leica glass, so you do not loose any information, but rather are able hopefully to get all out of the image. And most probably I could solve all my shooting requirements with 3 lenses - 35, 70, 180 for the beginning.

    Having said that, the comparisons we are going to see from Guy, Jack and Doug will be one of the basic decision drivers for me, as well a hands on test I will do myself, as soon as I can get a camera with at least 2 lenses for a day or so here in Austria - will take some other 2 months at least I guess. But I am pretty confident that the handling and operations of the S2 will suit my needs and habits very much, because I have been shooting Leicas for my whole life and so I am very used to the ergonomics, handling and controls - definitely much more than the Hassi and/or Phamiya.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    For me the S System could be the solution - even for landscape and nature photography the 37MP should be more than enough, especially if in combination with the Leica glass
    do you shoot landscapes wide open? With leaf shutter lenses? Handhold?
    Why don't you just buy a nice used camera and a refurbished/used or even new P45/+ or a H-39 and finally start shooting?
    Last edited by thomas; 2nd November 2009 at 01:07.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I thought exactly the same, especially if you don't shoot wide open, I don't think the S2 will be that special. Yes I will try it myself, but I mean for landscape work I think there are a lot options which are WAY cheaper. A P45 or H-39, + for example with phase the 45, 80 and 150, shot at f8-16 won't be any worse or better than the Leica S2, for a fraction of the price.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    It keeps coming back to price doesn't it?

    There is probably a lot of "Wants and Gimmes" going on over this sexy looking thing ... until you hit the $50K wall. Then the brain steps in and kicks the heart to the curb.

    I mean, we all know Leica should have a solid 24K gold dot rather than a red one for what we pay for it ... but something like the M9 is actually doable for mere mortals ... and it's a one of a kind, with no real competition ... not to mention pent up demand from generations of M users with a fortune invested in proven M lenses.

    My marketing mind cannot get past the believe that they simply priced this incorrectly ... especially the camera itself. IMO, it should have been in-between the top DSLRs and the MFD system camera. Like $15 or 16K with a 3 year Passport and a top service promo for initial adopters ... and a 70mm bundle price to get people into the system. The price of additional lenses could be justified to some degree.

    Like the M system, good lenses go on and on as technology relentlessly crashes forward ... but the cameras plummet like a shooting star in the summer sky. $2K for a $6K M8 before the camera is even broken in? That is a ferocious rate of loss even for digital cameras.

    Leica folk are a particular lot. In essence, they want a used Leica that's never been used, something kept in a velvet bag and used by someone wearing white cotton gloves in a hermetically sealed room. Cost per shot has to be the highest in the world. Why anyone would pay 6K for a tool and be proud to announce that it only has 359 clicks on it a few years later is beyond me.

    As the idiom says, "a fool and his money are soon parted".

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    With all other MF systems you are able to buy a new back one day and keep at least the body.
    This means buying a S2 is expensive, but updating a S2 to the S3 will be even more expensive-compared to other MF-solutions.


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It keeps coming back to price doesn't it?

    There is probably a lot of "Wants and Gimmes" going on over this sexy looking thing ... until you hit the $50K wall. Then the brain steps in and kicks the heart to the curb.

    I mean, we all know Leica should have a solid 24K gold dot rather than a red one for what we pay for it ... but something like the M9 is actually doable for mere mortals ... and it's a one of a kind, with no real competition ... not to mention pent up demand from generations of M users with a fortune invested in proven M lenses.

    My marketing mind cannot get past the believe that they simply priced this incorrectly ... especially the camera itself. IMO, it should have been in-between the top DSLRs and the MFD system camera. Like $15 or 16K with a 3 year Passport and a top service promo for initial adopters ... and a 70mm bundle price to get people into the system. The price of additional lenses could be justified to some degree.

    Like the M system, good lenses go on and on as technology relentlessly crashes forward ... but the cameras plummet like a shooting star in the summer sky. $2K for a $6K M8 before the camera is even broken in? That is a ferocious rate of loss even for digital cameras.

    Leica folk are a particular lot. In essence, they want a used Leica that's never been used, something kept in a velvet bag and used by someone wearing white cotton gloves in a hermetically sealed room. Cost per shot has to be the highest in the world. Why anyone would pay 6K for a tool and be proud to announce that it only has 359 clicks on it a few years later is beyond me.

    As the idiom says, "a fool and his money are soon parted".

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    With all other MF systems you are able to buy a new back one day and keep at least the body.
    This means buying a S2 is expensive, but updating a S2 to the S3 will be even more expensive-compared to other MF-solutions.
    Issue is, that if you upgrade to a top end back, this alone costs around 20-30k, so actually the camera comes for free. There is not much difference with the S2 to S3 probably.

    WRT buying a P45+ or H39 back and a used camera and 1 - 3 lenses, have checked on this and actually it is

    1) not so cheap to buy used
    2) you have to be lucky to get something which is still in decent condition - I could not find anything which would have suited my needs so far
    3) need to be able to buy including VAT, which in many cases is not what used deals are
    4) I actually would also shoot different images than just landscape of course and would use the S2 as kind of replacement for my DSLR (Sony) after some time, so the size would be great.

    Time will tell, maybe it will be too expensive for me anyway or maybe I will get a really good used offer for Hassi or Phase

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    With all other MF systems you are able to buy a new back one day and keep at least the body.
    This means buying a S2 is expensive, but updating a S2 to the S3 will be even more expensive-compared to other MF-solutions.
    That is fast becoming not true.

    It was when multi-adaptable backs were the rule, but no longer true with any Hasselblad H platform since the backs and body are integrated and have to stay together. With Phase One the new Mamiya based bodies with improved AF are much desired ... although you don't have to upgrade your back to get the new body.

    Fact is, they all drop in value like a stone as technology presses forward. So far, history has shown us that the more expensive it is, the bigger hit it takes ... the difference in price gap between the lower end backs and the ultimate backs of the same era closes considerably as new stuff hits the market.

    No need to project the future IMO. The S2 is just very expensive NOW ... period.


    -Marc

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    WRT buying a P45+ or H39 back and a used camera and 1 - 3 lenses, have checked on this and actually it is

    1) not so cheap to buy used
    2) you have to be lucky to get something which is still in decent condition - I could not find anything which would have suited my needs so far
    3) need to be able to buy including VAT, which in many cases is not what used deals are
    4) I actually would also shoot different images than just landscape of course and would use the S2 as kind of replacement for my DSLR (Sony) after some time, so the size would be great.
    I can't stop telling how good the Contax system is.
    You'll still find mint/new bodies and lenses. There are dealers offering cameras and lenses and they come with 1 year warranty and VAT (though a bit more expensive as used on Ebay).
    The Contax is a joy to use. The system is complete incl. verticalgrip changeable finder, different screens.
    As a landscape photographer you'll appreciate the outstanding Distagon 3.5/35. The 45mm is very good, the 80mm good (a bit weak wide open though even at f2 it resolves quite good at the center), the 120 macro is a dream.

  23. #123
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    [QUOTE=fotografz;151119]It keeps coming back to price doesn't it?



    "Leica folk are a particular lot. In essence, they want a used Leica that's never been used, something kept in a velvet bag and used by someone wearing white cotton gloves in a hermetically sealed room. Cost per shot has to be the highest in the world. Why anyone would pay 6K for a tool and be proud to announce that it only has 359 clicks on it a few years later is beyond me."

    This is, without a doubt, the best paragraph describing Leica that I have seen in awhile. It is so true and so unfortunate.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Issue is, that if you upgrade to a top end back, this alone costs around 20-30k, so actually the camera comes for free. There is not much difference with the S2 to S3 probably.

    WRT buying a P45+ or H39 back and a used camera and 1 - 3 lenses, have checked on this and actually it is

    1) not so cheap to buy used
    2) you have to be lucky to get something which is still in decent condition - I could not find anything which would have suited my needs so far
    3) need to be able to buy including VAT, which in many cases is not what used deals are
    4) I actually would also shoot different images than just landscape of course and would use the S2 as kind of replacement for my DSLR (Sony) after some time, so the size would be great.

    Time will tell, maybe it will be too expensive for me anyway or maybe I will get a really good used offer for Hassi or Phase
    I had an offer for a H3DII-39 with 80mm lens in very good condition for 10k about 1 year ago when I was evaluating different backs/combos.

    I am not saying the S2 is bad, I am sure it is great for some things. I just believe that it is priced pretty steep if you want to buy into it, even steeper if you want to upgrade one day , and it becomes even more expensive because there is no used market for lenses today.
    And its still the medium format system with the smallest sensor of the whole bunch.
    For some people this might be the best tool , or they just want it and the price might not be the problem, or it may have paid off after doing the first job.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    23K $US for a 40 megapixel chip and a body attached to it - is the way I would look at the 'price' tag. Most people dont use their digi backs OFF their camera bodies anyway - just look at the relatively few forum posters on here that do.

    No it isnt the body with chip built in price that concerns me OR price - it is the lens design and image circle which is limited to a particular chip size - I am not sure that Leica haven't boxed themselves into a limited surface area as far as capture medium goes.

    For me it is always abotu quality of glass hanging off teh capture medium that counts. Paying up for a the S2 lenses and then finding out that they cant keep up with the newest technology over teh next decade - that would be buyer regret.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    [QUOTE=gdwhalen;151134]
    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It keeps coming back to price doesn't it?



    "Leica folk are a particular lot. In essence, they want a used Leica that's never been used, something kept in a velvet bag and used by someone wearing white cotton gloves in a hermetically sealed room. Cost per shot has to be the highest in the world. Why anyone would pay 6K for a tool and be proud to announce that it only has 359 clicks on it a few years later is beyond me."

    This is, without a doubt, the best paragraph describing Leica that I have seen in awhile. It is so true and so unfortunate.

    Well - I only came to leica recently, and my first trip to a leica store made me think that their camera finish must be indestructable . . . later I realised that those cameras had simply not been used!

    On the other hand - I recently sold my black chrome M8 (actually, a grey chrome M8 as the black had worn down to the nickel with use). It was upgraded, so the shutter was new, but the guy who bought it was really happy to get the camera he wanted, and actually said that he like the way it looked like a 'real' camera.

    So everybody doesn't feel the same way.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    When I asked my Hasselblad dealer for used H3D2 and 39MP back, there was actually pretty clear from his answer that this was happening very very seldom, especially if one looks for good condition. Well you can get a camera/back with 50k shots for a good price, but I would not go for this, as I am not liking trouble from the beginning.

    I also have certain restrictions put in place for myself, as I will not go for any "dead" system like Contax (I sold a C system 8 years ago) - not because it might not be good, but because I want same latest technology when I step back into digital MF photography.

    So there remain 23 systems - Phase, Hasselblad and S.

    Actually the best price/performance ratio might be a H3D2/50 which comes for 21.600.- incl. VAT, has the latest chip generation is a mature back and is almost 645 full frame. And one gets a free upgrade to the H4D if you buy this in 2009.

    And BTW I am still on the list for a good used H3D2/39, but so far nothing popped up.

    As I said I am open and flexible within the restrictions I put up as important for me, so I will see what comes in the next 3-4 months.

  28. #128
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    snip...
    WRT buying a P45+ or H39 back and a used camera and 1 - 3 lenses, have checked on this and actually it is

    1) not so cheap to buy used
    2) you have to be lucky to get something which is still in decent condition - I could not find anything which would have suited my needs so far
    3) need to be able to buy including VAT, which in many cases is not what used deals are
    4) I actually would also shoot different images than just landscape of course and would use the S2 as kind of replacement for my DSLR (Sony) after some time, so the size would be great.

    Time will tell, maybe it will be too expensive for me anyway or maybe I will get a really good used offer for Hassi or Phase
    This could be expensive logic. If one really wants to put a kit together, a used Phase/Mamiya kit can be assembled very reasonably for landscape with some other subject material salted in. With landscape one doesn't need the fastest lenses, zero shutter lag, fast auto focus, etc. In fact, those features will seldom even be used.

    An AFD II, or AFD III can be purchased very cheaply, and soon the AFD III/Phase body will be even cheaper with the new body coming. Mamiya lenses can be purchased used in pristine conditions as well, and one can buy "D" versions, or previous generation lenses really cheaply. I bought all of my Mamiya lenses (35mm to 210mm + 120mm "D") for a total of about $3,500. That's six lenses as the 80 was supplied with the body to make seven. Add a back of your choice and you're out shooting.

    I shoot mostly landscape and the kit is great for that, but I do some portrait stuff when asked, some personal stuff that is not landscape, and some product, and I have never found the kit to be the limiting factor. Now I'm not saying that shooting runway models or events that this is the kit, but just saying that one could easily overspend on features if shooting mostly landscape and similar material.

    I am in no way suggesting that the S2 is wrong, or a bad choice, etc. I agree with what PeterA has posted above, and I also know that many will buy the S2 for reasons that don't matter to working pros. And of course, the S2 may be the perfect solution for some pros as well. In fact, I could see it handling my landscape stuff really well as well, especially with the weather sealing, and robust construction. My point was simply like others have mentioned, that one can get out there and make some great images in MF for an amazingly small price if they're not caught up with the need for "latest/greatest". In fact, I'm pricing some Canon gear to sell, and the lens values are way higher than my Mamiya kit.

    Cheers

  29. #129
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Dale,

    thanks for your motivation - I really appreciate and would be happy to find a reasonably cheaper but used kit from Phase.

    End of the day I want to keep costs down as much as possible.

    My minimum requirements are a back in the range of 40MP and 3 lenses from 28 - 80 - 150. Similar for Hasselblad.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    If you really want to keep the budget in check, a Mamiya 35mm AF F3.5 is ~$650 USD and found my copy to be very good. Likewise, the original 80mm F2.8 AF is ~$125 and the 150mm F3.5 AF is ~$250. For about $10k USD that kit can be matched with a 64AFDII and P30+. Add another $1000 or so for odds and ends. It's not 40 MP, but it's much lighter on the wallet.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    My minimum requirements are a back in the range of 40MP and 3 lenses from 28 - 80 - 150. Similar for Hasselblad.
    + faster computer
    + storage
    + portable storage
    + notebook
    + cf cards
    + new cases / backpacks
    + new tripod
    + new tridop heads
    + new clamps
    +
    +
    +
    +
    + new credit card

    :-)

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    When I asked my Hasselblad dealer for used H3D2 and 39MP back, there was actually pretty clear from his answer that this was happening very very seldom, especially if one looks for good condition. Well you can get a camera/back with 50k shots for a good price, but I would not go for this, as I am not liking trouble from the beginning.

    I also have certain restrictions put in place for myself, as I will not go for any "dead" system like Contax (I sold a C system 8 years ago) - not because it might not be good, but because I want same latest technology when I step back into digital MF photography.

    So there remain 23 systems - Phase, Hasselblad and S.

    Actually the best price/performance ratio might be a H3D2/50 which comes for 21.600.- incl. VAT, has the latest chip generation is a mature back and is almost 645 full frame. And one gets a free upgrade to the H4D if you buy this in 2009.

    And BTW I am still on the list for a good used H3D2/39, but so far nothing popped up.

    As I said I am open and flexible within the restrictions I put up as important for me, so I will see what comes in the next 3-4 months.
    You can't have been looking very hard since a number of them have been offer right here on this forum ... including mine.

    But now Hasselblad has offered a trade in promotion that makes selling one not a smart move.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    You can't have been looking very hard since a number of them have been offer right here on this forum ... including mine.

    But now Hasselblad has offered a trade in promotion that makes selling one not a smart move.
    Well, I have been looking, issue is that I am here in Europe and this makes all things a bit more complicated once you start trading with US. Especially if I want to depreciate the system costs from my local tax over the next few years.

    I know that the Hasselblad trade in offer is pretty good.

  34. #134
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    If you really want to keep the budget in check, a Mamiya 35mm AF F3.5 is ~$650 USD and found my copy to be very good. Likewise, the original 80mm F2.8 AF is ~$125 and the 150mm F3.5 AF is ~$250. For about $10k USD that kit can be matched with a 64AFDII and P30+. Add another $1000 or so for odds and ends. It's not 40 MP, but it's much lighter on the wallet.
    As long as you stay around 30MP then it is getting cheaper I know. But I kind of found that 40MP is my limit.

    I am sure it will not take too long and 40MP will be in a similar price range than 30MP today.

  35. #135
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    You can't have been looking very hard since a number of them have been offer right here on this forum ... including mine.

    But now Hasselblad has offered a trade in promotion that makes selling one not a smart move.
    Need to answer now after looking pretty hard - only Jack is selling his 2.8/150D currently (not sure if still available) - but what would I do with just a lens?

    No camera, no back for Phase etc.

    So this might only work very occasionally

  36. #136
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Peter,
    I dont know if the market has changed that much, but when I was looking for a system one year ago nearly each brand could officially offer me some contacs to people who wanted to sell their MF systems.
    There were at least 2 Hassy 39, Phase offered some refurbished backs and a body for low money, used Mamiya lenses I found here for good price (fotopartner.de) - you also find there many Hassy lenses.
    Additionally there is frequently MF gear listed here and on L.Landscape.
    Plus there is ebay.
    I myself still own some Mamiya lenses which I would like to sell (45,55,150,300APO) so if any is of interest for you let me know.
    Frankly if you really want to find used gear and give it some time and be a little patient I am sure you will find what you are looking for.

  37. #137
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I can't stop telling how good the Contax system is.
    You'll still find mint/new bodies and lenses. There are dealers offering cameras and lenses and they come with 1 year warranty and VAT (though a bit more expensive as used on Ebay).
    The Contax is a joy to use. The system is complete incl. verticalgrip changeable finder, different screens.
    As a landscape photographer you'll appreciate the outstanding Distagon 3.5/35. The 45mm is very good, the 80mm good (a bit weak wide open though even at f2 it resolves quite good at the center), the 120 macro is a dream.
    Yes, and there are people on the forum in the past year who have made the decision to buy into Contax, and are very happy.

    Seems that doesn't make good press. Most here have Mamyia or Hassey and it is understandable that they are not going to comment favorably on a 'dead' system.

    It is interesting that, for all its 'deadness', I have an AF top quality Zeiss designed lense system, with 60 MP soon to get live view. I haven't had a failure in 2 systems for 6-7 years.

    But why do we Contax users persist in even mentioning it? We KNOW we are going to get slammed here by somebody



    Victor

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I have no interest in this "fight," but it seems to me that there are some people who don't want to buy into a "dead system," i.e., one that will not grow or be improved or officially supported. I don't agree with that view, but wouldn't call the comments of the people who ascribe to it "slamming." It's just a difference of opinion. The "slammers" are entitled to their view; they're wrong, but entitled to be so.

    Imagine what a great job Ansel Adams could have done if he had access to autofocus.

  39. #139
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I think Ansel Adams' photos wouldn't have been much different; that guy knew where he wanted everything. It might have made a difference for someone like HCB, but then again, when you look at where the subject is in his frames, it might not have been a change for the better.

    Anyway, I agree with your "slamming" comments. I don't think that it is invalid to choose not to buy Contax because the system is no longer being developed ("dead" is a bit exaggerated, since you can still buy new and still get service, where other system can neither be bought new nor repaired). It is, however, a really nice system, with slow, if accurate AF, and some really great lenses. I am very happy to have bought into it, personally.
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  40. #140
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    what fight?

    hell, even Michael Reichman slammed the Hassey 110 that fell apart in his hands. Comes with the territory...

    All's fair with love, war and 'gear sluts'



    Victor

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Most here have Mamyia or Hassey and it is understandable that they are not going to comment favorably on a 'dead' system.
    the "dead" system is actually vitally alive. There are still a lot of Contax' around. Phase/Leaf wouldn't provide Contax mount if it wouldn't be profitable (they sure don't do it just because they like Contax so much - though they like Contax very much ).
    I think it's understandable for a working pro who needs 24/7 service to rule out the Contax system today. Though it is really inexpensive to avoid any service at all by just buying one or two back up bodies and a second copy of the most important lenses. I sometimes look at ebay for lenses. A few weeks ago by accident I got a 2.0/80 for 210,-. I don't think someone has ever used it... it's like new.
    Service is still provided and even if not you'll find the guys who can service the camera and lenses. At least here in Germany it's quite easy to find them.

  42. #142
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Well,

    WRT "Dead Systems" - one can always be happy with such a system, and such systems can survive for many years, also if there is no official support.

    On the other hand I am done with these playing around and better leave this to people who are more patient than I am.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    On the other hand I am done with these playing around and better leave this to people who are more patient than I am.
    You only have to be patient if you want to make those "great" deals.
    If you pay what dealers charge you can buy a Contax with 3 or 4 lenses within 1 day... within 1 hour actually. In my hometown there is a dealer who has one still on the shelf, a new one. As VAT and warranty are an issue you'd have to pay more in any case.
    Took me 3 or 4 days to assemble my system back in the days. Just the waist level finder, vertical grip and the bellows lens hood were a bit harder to find.

    As to patience that's a bit funny as you are looking for a solution since weeks. I normally decide and buy quickly ... either way cameras or anything else.

  44. #144
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    As to patience that's a bit funny as you are looking for a solution since weeks. I normally decide and buy quickly ... either way cameras or anything else.
    I normally do so as well, but in the case of MF digital I am trying to slow down as long as I can, as it is very easy to burn lots of unnecessary cash here

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Yes, and there are people on the forum in the past year who have made the decision to buy into Contax, and are very happy.

    Seems that doesn't make good press. Most here have Mamyia or Hassey and it is understandable that they are not going to comment favorably on a 'dead' system.

    It is interesting that, for all its 'deadness', I have an AF top quality Zeiss designed lense system, with 60 MP soon to get live view. I haven't had a failure in 2 systems for 6-7 years.

    But why do we Contax users persist in even mentioning it? We KNOW we are going to get slammed here by somebody



    Victor

    I don't consider that a "dead system" is a deal killer.

    Does the digital back work on that system and does that system do for you what you want it to? For many, that criteria has resulted in a Contax-based purchase. I just sold a P25+ to a Contax user a couple weeks ago. The fact development has ceased may be a concern to some, but not to others.

    Contax-based sales have held very steady.


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  46. #146
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    The Contax system is a nice system but for me the body changes can't happen. Just for example look at the AFD which has had basically 3 revamps and now a DF body. So for me that relies on speed of camera in many area's that is what stopped me from going Contax but certainly for some folks those improvements in the body don't mean as much. I know i maybe said dead system in the past but it is more like not a evolving system than anything else. So for me that was my choice but also in my case I am trying to make two different systems into one system which is a big task on any level. Right now with the DF coming that makes me put the 35mm even more so to the back burner. Obviously this all depends on how and what you shoot everyday.

    Now on waiting . i don't know this is a tough call in a way Peter. I waited a while before jumping in also but mine was more about turmoil with who owns what and what direction these OEM's where going plus money. LOL
    But finally I jumped in , now got to say maybe that was a waste of time waiting. Heck not much has changed since I jumped and the back i have today if I bought when i was thinking is still being sold and works wonders so the reality was a waste of time, at some point either you jump or don't. Obviously for you that is your call but the P45+ or P40+ fit your style like a glove and since I worked with you on the workshop on this area alone and see the joy you got out of shooting the tech camera than i see no reason to wait any longer but that is my observance of your situation not unless you have your heart set on a s2 than that would be the only reason to wait any longer. Just the way i see your situation and working with you.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The Contax system is a nice system but for me the body changes can't happen. Just for example look at the AFD which has had basically 3 revamps and now a DF body. So for me that relies on speed of camera in many area's that is what stopped me from going Contax but certainly for some folks those improvements in the body don't mean as much. I know i maybe said dead system in the past but it is more like not a evolving system than anything else. So for me that was my choice but also in my case I am trying to make two different systems into one system which is a big task on any level. Right now with the DF coming that makes me put the 35mm even more so to the back burner. Obviously this all depends on how and what you shoot everyday.

    Now on waiting . i don't know this is a tough call in a way Peter. I waited a while before jumping in also but mine was more about turmoil with who owns what and what direction these OEM's where going plus money. LOL
    But finally I jumped in , now got to say maybe that was a waste of time waiting. Heck not much has changed since I jumped and the back i have today if I bought when i was thinking is still being sold and works wonders so the reality was a waste of time, at some point either you jump or don't. Obviously for you that is your call but the P45+ or P40+ fit your style like a glove and since I worked with you on the workshop on this area alone and see the joy you got out of shooting the tech camera than i see no reason to wait any longer but that is my observance of your situation not unless you have your heart set on a s2 than that would be the only reason to wait any longer. Just the way i see your situation and working with you.

    And I might add that while our Contax-based sales have held steady, our Mamiya/Phase One-based camera platform sales have surged.


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  48. #148
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    what fight?

    hell, even Michael Reichman slammed the Hassey 110 that fell apart in his hands. Comes with the territory...

    All's fair with love, war and 'gear sluts'



    Victor
    I took two Leica R's 5 years ago to Alaska to photograph Humpback whales. BOTH of them had electronic issues and they both failed the second of the 5 days I was there. Dead. Then the next summer on a trip to Ireland I took one R8 with me - the other R8 was being worked on - and it failed the very first time I tried to use it. Froze up completely.

    Leica was great about it both times and eventually sent me two new cameras but that was after I already was home and lost the images of the final days of both of those trips. Not a fond memory.

    Any system can have a lemon. And I don't want to hear about lemonade.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    That is a bit of what would worry me and the reason why I wouldn't buy a dead system. Even having 2 of everything is not enough for me as a pro and that's from real world nightmare experience not just 'the principle'. I couldn't use a system where I couldn't get a spare couriered to me same day from the rental place, etc. I wouldn't use a system where if I was working with the backup, if that too died, I couldn't complete the job to the same spec.
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  50. #150
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    I took two Leica R's 5 years ago to Alaska to photograph Humpback whales. BOTH of them had electronic issues and they both failed the second of the 5 days I was there. Dead. Then the next summer on a trip to Ireland I took one R8 with me - the other R8 was being worked on - and it failed the very first time I tried to use it. Froze up completely.

    Leica was great about it both times and eventually sent me two new cameras but that was after I already was home and lost the images of the final days of both of those trips. Not a fond memory.

    Any system can have a lemon. And I don't want to hear about lemonade.
    Never had such severe issues with my Leicas but I am still very careful, as I do not want to repeat experiences like I had with DMR and first M8.

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