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Thread: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

  1. #251
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Doug and Nick-T,
    You are probably not going to find too many folks disagreeing with you on this. On the other hand, from what was stated in other posts and the sales blog, Leica did not give permission to release the DNG files from the preproduction cameras used at that August demo trip, so no use worrying about that any more. Will be more interesting to see and get the RAW DNG files from the upcoming tests in December (Guy and Jack, and CI), plus some actual comparisons with same stuff shot with competitor cameras. Images speak more than lots of words at times ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    There is no story until the raws are available IMO.
    -bob

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Maybe Jack and Guy will be able to set up an FTP folder on the site as file repository for a while (err... I mean Andy ) once they decide on certain files from their tests which make sense to share. Big files are no minor task to move around, but an un-styled download page is pretty trivial to set up.

    I don't mean to assume that the hosting agreement of this site has no bandwidth limits, but many hosting packages have no limits or very high limits, so thought I'd suggest it.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    We're working on it I am thinking we will be able to load raw file image sets right on the site as zip folders you can download directly from your browser.
    Jack
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    70Mb per file with many people wanting to get them, that could get very expensive if one has bandwidth limits. Which in Germany is still standard.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Certainly not Iphone material.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    70Mb per file with many people wanting to get them, that could get very expensive if one has bandwidth limits. Which in Germany is still standard.
    mediafire.com offers unlimited downloads for free (up to 100 MB file size)

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    If there is a concern of bogging down the forum, it could be set up on another account. If the attachment idea through the forum works that would be great. But if it causes grief I'd be willing to help set up a new domain and host them until people get the files they need. I use Hostgator which offers unlimited bandwidth, so it would be cheap to open a new account and create a simple directory if needed.

    Of course I could just add a download folder to my current site, but at the cheap prices of hosting it might be better to avoid bogging down my site.

    Anyway, I'm happy to help if there's any need or desire.

    Edit: @Graham, I didn't ignore your post. You posted while I was typing. There are a few ways to handle the sharing, and fortunately these days it's pretty easy and cheap.

  9. #259
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I always have my .me account worst case like I did with the M9 review
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    BTW: I see that Mediafire now offers 200MB/file for free.

    If your .me account process is a hassle, Guy, I'm happy to host them if needed.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Guy
    I hope you'll be using the LR3 beta as well - it seems to have a pretty radically improved processing engine, which is not yet reflected in the ACR releases (and after all, that's what the camera ships with!). I know you guys don't use Aperture, but I'd like to see what happens there as well.

    LJ
    I would have thought that one of the good things about the S2 is that in producing generic DNG files they will be immediately supported in so many different programs, rather than being tied to proprietary software (however good that may be).

    all the best
    In principal all you say is right - but this is theory and praxis differs unfortunately.

    My experiences with DNG are that all the RAW converters (LR, Aperture, C1 Pro) are so much different and they all produce significantly different results. The worst is that this starts already how the interpret neighbor pixels and put these together to structures, which result in some form of artifacts or microstructures. For example I liked these more in C1 Pro than in LR3 for the S2 DNGs I have seen so far. And the strange thing is, that C1 Pro does not even have a S2 profile so far but obviously uses the standard DNG engine it has implemented.

    So while this open DNG is something great in theory, I think finally it is not delivering the results of vendor specific RAW converters - unfortunately.

  12. #262
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    BTW: I see that Mediafire now offers 200MB/file for free.

    If your .me account process is a hassle, Guy, I'm happy to host them if needed.
    Thanks Dale we are checking with Andy right now to set something up.Let's see if that goes okay
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I think Bob would be fine with it (I know I would be) if the raws were available, or the the "generic conversion" JPG (even in low res) was provided.

    I don't buy cameras based on PP manipulated images from them.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    For me, personally, I'm more concerned with the end result. Can I get what I want from a camera and associated workflow in a simple and straightforward way? The adjustment brush in LR took all of 30 seconds for me to apply. This wasn't slaved over in CS4 for hours (as I know many will do for final work to be printed large).

    Perhaps in your comparisons with other MF systems, you may wish to turn off lens corrections, DAC, etc. in order to take PP out of the equation... or is that "acceptable" post processing?

    I think it is important to keep in mind that the files presented in my blog are from a pre-production camera and early firmware (as stated at the start of my review). They were processed with no camera profile in LR. I process my pictures to my taste, as we all do. They were compressed slightly (to save bandwidth) at about 85% quality. No, the onscreen images on a web browser do not look as good as the DNG files in LR on my computer. And, to address an earlier question of sharpening, I applied pretty much the same amount to every file (amount=48, radius=0.5, detail=35, masking=18). If you are familiar with LR, these are extremely low, especially the radius. I purposely didn't apply much sharpening.

    If anyone would like to see the DNGs, they are more than welcome to come to my office and see them in my computer (where they must stay as part of my agreement with Leica, which was also stated in my review).

    I will be posting a follow-up report from PhotoPlus shortly, where I was able to shoot with the production model S2. I'll talk more about the differences between the pre-production and production cameras, with regards to both hardware and firmware.

    Then, of course, we will have the production S2 for a hands-on studio shoot on Friday, Nov 20th in the Ft. Lauderdale/Miami area. Similar to the event in NYC, all attendees will be able to shoot the camera for themselves and keep the RAW files.

    David
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    For me, personally, I'm more concerned with the end result. Can I get what I want from a camera and associated workflow in a simple and straightforward way? The adjustment brush in LR took all of 30 seconds for me to apply. This wasn't slaved over in CS4 for hours (as I know many will do for final work to be printed large).
    Couldn't agree more than for any given person the only thing that matters is their final result. The difficulty arises when you're trying to translate your post processing for someone else's evaluation. This is nearly impossible even for the best "tester" but it becomes even harder when you can't share RAWs so that others can run through THEIR post processing techniques and preferences and see where their final results fall.

    You were restrained by your deal with Leica so my comment wasn't a dig or an implication. I understand this was a limitation that was placed on you.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Oh i am so looking forward to all the "real world" indiustrial quality definately absolutely microscoped results and reviews coming - thanks Guys!!

    Still my real world may be different to yours - how does it look sitting next to me in one of my Porshes or my new little shopping trollyey the R8?

    Will Luigi bring out a nice custom leather case for the S2? Perhaps a special S2 Luigi version camera strap as well?

    So many critical questions yet to be even adressed - all this pixel peeping stiuff and not a thought as to the fashionability issues....

    Not ONE dog or CAT shot in the whole series so far - please genetlemen understand the likely content of useage and take into account the intended audience.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Peter,

    We'll do a dentist-style-Leica-usage series just for you... Of course that means we won't actually take any images with it, but will be sure to sit it prominently on the table when we hit the restaurant for lunch, during which time we will pay particular attention to the quantity of oohs and ahhhs of the other patrons!
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Peter,

    We'll do a dentist-style-Leica-usage series just for you... Of course that means we won't actually take any images with it, but will be sure to sit it prominently on the table when we hit the restaurant for lunch, during which time we will pay particular attention to the quantity of oohs and ahhhs of the other patrons!
    Jack,
    Don't forget that when someone asks to mention that Seal likes it very much.
    -bob

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I for one expect a reviewer to process their photographs in a manner they prefer. I don't know how else they could do it. David did disclose his processing preferences (e.g., a little snap and punch) in his review so at least the reader has an idea of the bias. I have seen very few reviews where raw files were made available for download most of the time the reader has to rely on the processed photos included in the review. Thankfully, Guy is good about making raw files available in his reviews.

    I posted some S2 dng files a couple weeks ago for folks to download, but the download limit was hit in a few days. I will give Mediafire a try.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Oh i am so looking forward to all the "real world" indiustrial quality definately absolutely microscoped results and reviews coming - thanks Guys!!

    Still my real world may be different to yours - how does it look sitting next to me in one of my Porshes or my new little shopping trollyey the R8?

    Will Luigi bring out a nice custom leather case for the S2? Perhaps a special S2 Luigi version camera strap as well?

    So many critical questions yet to be even adressed - all this pixel peeping stiuff and not a thought as to the fashionability issues....

    Not ONE dog or CAT shot in the whole series so far - please genetlemen understand the likely content of useage and take into account the intended audience.
    I think I have some really special filters for you to buy. Rose colored
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Ok laugh away - ignore the needs of the real targert market...-

    More seriously - I'd like to hear your views on can I hand hold the thing easier than the other things I own...-


    please check autofocus speed/battery life/LCD screen useability
    fascinated to hear wht you guys think of the lenses - especially any wide you get to use.

    Give me the go ahead on these matters and I am ready to go.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Folks,

    really waiting for your thoughts and observations on the S System - and this will be definitely a very valuable input for many of us!

    Bottom line is that one has to test and feel himself in order to make a final conclusion and decision. I often found observations of others really not matching my own observations and in most cases also not my needs which are resulting from my style.

    Having said that in the end of the day everyone has to draw his own and personal final conclusions.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Personally, I think it would be risky for anyone to buy into a system like that without a test drive.
    Would you buy a car of the same value without at least taking it around the block?
    -bob

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    There are some unscientific test images over on the S2 part of LUF. Seems (although it's tight and really not a great methodology) in that battle, the S2 is a little better at 100% than a P45+.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    better ? That probably depends on the viewer, I think all 100% crops look a lot more digital than anything I have seen of my P45 or P65. However it could be something about raw conversion.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    yes, forget them. they look soft (both the p45 and the s2)

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Ok laugh away - ignore the needs of the real targert market...-

    More seriously - I'd like to hear your views on can I hand hold the thing easier than the other things I own...-


    please check autofocus speed/battery life/LCD screen useability
    fascinated to hear wht you guys think of the lenses - especially any wide you get to use.

    Give me the go ahead on these matters and I am ready to go.
    You should be able to get 1/60 but something we will try for sure. As far as holding it DSLR styles like this are easier but again these lenses are not that light either. The 70mm is a pretty damn big lens compared to the Phase 80 and even the Hassy 80 . I think it is a 82 filter size but I need to check all these specs out again so i have them for the review.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    For some, a heavier camera allows shooting at slower speeds due to the camera's mass uo to the point where muscle tremor begins.
    -bob

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Exactly Bob I actually can squeeze 1/45 out of my Phase body but you need to be on your game too. I should add with a 45 and 80 mm lens the 150 I need to be at 1/90 minimum. Many times when I get this low I readjust my left hand and actually have palm face up and elbow tucked into the body to form a tripod base but again this takes practice and a pretty strong shake free arm. Many times and I highly recommend this for MF shooters regardless of body is grab a monopod.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Here I am on the very edge of a winner or loser ISO 800 at 1/60 3.4 with the 150mm. Now before I even looked at the LCD after the shot I went in and grabbed the Metz flash. I really had no hope for this one but got extremely lucky. I don't recommend going this low with a 150mm
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Personally, I think it would be risky for anyone to buy into a system like that without a test drive.
    Would you buy a car of the same value without at least taking it around the block?
    -bob
    My thinking ( FWIW)

    If Leica tell me that the best lenses they have ever made are for the S2 - this is a big statement. If a few selected people who understand lens quality verify this statement - benchmarked against M lenses they own and use for example or MF glass they own and use that is good enough for me - first tick

    The camera body is already superior in terms of ergonomics and other features - to any of the systems currently out there ( I own and use Contax/Blad V and H, RZ and Hy6 so I am very familiar with MF ergonomics or lack thereof - second tick.

    If the IQ is as good as a 33-40 megapixel offering from Sinar/Hasselblad/Phase/Leaf - well thats the third tick. ( I really dont need 50 or 60 megapixels - in fact for most purposes I prefer less megapixels - around 40 is more than plenty.

    All I need is some verification of the quality of the 35mm wide this will see me go 35/70/180 as starting line-up.

    Someone in the USof A is going to be doing a big load of business with me on this issue of rejigging and finalising my end kit.

    I will end up shooting with an M8/M9 for travel/ an S2 for my SLR needs and an arTec for pano/landscape and architecture shots. Great as the Phamiya/Hasselblad systems are ( not to mention RZ) - I really dont use them as much as I should - therefore they will all probably go.

    if I can actually test one here in Australia - that would be great- however I have heard on the grapevine who the dealer is going to be - and they have an ice cubes chance in hell of ever doing business with me again - leica have been very veery foolish in their choice of dealer here - they may have turned their backs on a range of dealers who have a very loyal customer base - this is going to cost them a lot in lost sales in Australia - but that is another story.

    Pete

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    One issue I see going in here is the look of the glass. Basically all these S lenses will look the same since they are coming from the same mold essentially. R and M have a variety of looks like the Lux, Crons and some of the older glass. Even Hassy and Mamiya have some older lenses that have certain looks like the 110 for example. As good as this glass maybe it may very well be very sterile as well or what we call clinical in look. Not that this maybe a bad thing overall just leaves less choice and part of my concern every lens will look identical in look. Now I hear and and not positive that maybe bolting on V glass is a possibility which does several things one is get people in the door easier with regards to money if they have someV glass already but it will also give you a chance to get a different look . I personally have not heard any confirmation of this and will ask Leica when they are here in Phoenix but that would give you some options. i like options and this system is limited right out of the gate since it has no history like the R or M that you can fall back on.

    No I know I am going to here they are molded after certain lenses but that maybe just design or number of elements . Let's face it new glass being molded here and the formula is most likely the same and not the formula from from several years ago like a Lux for example. Now Leica did do a nice job on the new M lux 24mm so hard to say until we get these in the field and see what looks is coming from them.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Guy,
    A touch of some crocus cloth to those S lenses and I am sure that you can cause a different look.
    OTOH clinical is a good place to start.
    what would you expect from a self-respecting German camera manufacturer, romantic?
    Definition of European Heaven:
    The Police are all British,
    The Chefs are French,
    The Lovers are Italian,
    It is organized by the Swiss,
    and the Germans make the cameras

    In Hell, on the other hand...
    The Police are all German,
    The Chefs are British,
    The Lovers are Swiss,
    It is organized by the Italians,
    the French make the cameras
    And it is debated endlessly in the EU Parliament as to who has the right to do what
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    Last edited by Bob; 12th November 2009 at 04:58.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Bob, never heard that one before but it is hysterical

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    That is great. Glad the Italians run hell, it would really be bad if they did not. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Bob,

    this kind of reflects reality anyway pretty good!

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    My thinking ( FWIW)

    If Leica tell me that the best lenses they have ever made are for the S2 - this is a big statement. If a few selected people who understand lens quality verify this statement - benchmarked against M lenses they own and use for example or MF glass they own and use that is good enough for me - first tick

    The camera body is already superior in terms of ergonomics and other features - to any of the systems currently out there ( I own and use Contax/Blad V and H, RZ and Hy6 so I am very familiar with MF ergonomics or lack thereof - second tick.

    If the IQ is as good as a 33-40 megapixel offering from Sinar/Hasselblad/Phase/Leaf - well thats the third tick. ( I really dont need 50 or 60 megapixels - in fact for most purposes I prefer less megapixels - around 40 is more than plenty.
    Pete,

    I suspect you can tick item one off right now as I have very little doubt the lenses will be exceptional. Bottom line is even many of my Mamiya lenses are "better than the sensor," along with Schneider and Rodenstock are already meeting or exceeding that level of glass production, so I'd expect no less from Leica.

    Re item 2, ergos. We've seen the pictures of the body next to other cameras we've used, we've used the R9/DMR and the S2 appears cast in the same mold, adding automated features; which is to say it appears a great design. Basically we have a conventional DSLR form-factor with an MF sensor. I'm pretty confident you can tick this one off now too.

    UI is part of ergos and while this is still somewhat unknown, it appears from reviews like David's that the UI is logical and simple, so not going to be a huge concern for me either --- so I tic this one off too.

    IQ however is the remaining question for me. And here I'm not talking about total pixel count or even superior detail, but rather the entire package; file detail/resolution, dynamic range, noise, color tonality and smoothness.

    Bottom line is if the S2 hits a grand slam with IQ, the camera is a winner at the platinum/onyx level --- and I for one actually expect it will hit the grand slam.

    But there is where *I* hit the two real problems for me: system depth/flexibility and cost. Speaking for myself only, even if I love everything about it, I already know I cannot justify switching to the narrower, less adaptable system, and I know I cannot afford one even if I could get my arms around that depth/flexibility issue --- which is a major bummer for me.
    Jack
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    PeterA

    I do not have so much experience as you with different MF systems although I have some to know how bulky current offerings are - all of them.

    Hasselbald and Phase are no exception and the S2 can only win against them in terms of ergonomics.

    I will have a number of landscape shootings next year, some in very humid and rainy places, so the S System would be just right.

    WRT the IQ of the S System - I am pretty serious that it will outperform any of the existing 40MP backs, because of the fine handling of data which Leica implemented (I trust Germans ) and also of course because of the glass itself.

    And for landscape work 40MP are more than sufficient, as I see every day in my exhibition of fine art prints, where lot of them were made with P40+ and P45+. You do not even notice any difference to the P65+ shoots when you compare them side by side. So I would have to enlarge MUCH, MUCH more in order to notice any differences. Not up to 40"x60" - no way! And i will not go larger except Panos and these I compose out of 3 - 5 (or more) 40MP shots.

    Same lineup for me initially would be 35, 70, 180 as basic startup system. Later add the 30-90 and maybe the macro and a longer tele - say 300 or whatever they come up with.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I'm a tougher sell and maybe reason Leica is hand delivering one to me to test. I am brutal on this stuff but someone has to be. I love leica's but I am not buying labels here, it's all about system wide quality, compatibility and functionality. Bottom line for me is will it knock me off my chair. If it don't than I will just stay with what I have which I like very much but to jump to the S2 it will take a LOT of convincing. Reason we want to run this through hell first. You folks get to benefit from that.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    But there is where *I* hit the two real problems for me: system depth/flexibility and cost. Speaking for myself only, even if I love everything about it, I already know I cannot justify switching to the narrower, less adaptable system, and I know I cannot afford one even if I could get my arms around that depth/flexibility issue --- which is a major bummer for me.
    Jack, you do the wrong conclusions here. Why not have the S System as the universal MF system for maybe 80-90% of what you need and keep just you P45+ back and go for a tech camera with some great glass. Why would that limit flexibility, I think it would rather improve it!

    And if I remember right you still have your Canon DSLR system for whatever "low end" shooting - apologize this expression

    For me the longer I look into the whole picture the combination of Alpha900 DSLR system, M9 as point and shoot and S2 as high end (MF or whatever you call it) system seems to become the killer combination. And I would be flexible as well as I could get an additional P45+ (used) or H39 (used) and a tech camera if I really needed this. And on the Alpha side I am pretty confident I can buy the A1R or however they call their next pro model for a bargain compared to Nikon and Canon pro cameras.

    So I seem to have found heaven - please do not tell me where I am wrong

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm a tougher sell and maybe reason Leica is hand delivering one to me to test. I am brutal on this stuff but someone has to be. I love leica's but I am not buying labels here, it's all about system wide quality, compatibility and functionality. Bottom line for me is will it knock me off my chair. If it don't than I will just stay with what I have which I like very much but to jump to the S2 it will take a LOT of convincing. Reason we want to run this through hell first. You folks get to benefit from that.
    Should we bet it will knock you off your chair like an explosion

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I think Jack's points are spot on. Even if the S2 clears all the technical and image hurdles for most uses, it still faces that cost issue. Just how much better or not the S2 is against other comparable offerings will be the calculation individuals will have to make. Presently, the cost structure seems difficult for some (many?) to justify, with or without the system fullness or adaptability. For the folks that may not be as concerned with the cost structure, that may not matter. On the grander scheme it may however. If folks do not buy into the S2 system sufficiently, will it survive? It was mentioned that this may become a situation similar to the R9/DMR. On paper, it looked to be head and shoulder above other offerings (excepting AF and a few other things). The images were impressive, some think better than anything else offered at that time. It should have been a runaway hit with many more folks than it ever turned out to be. Enough folks were just not willing to spend that much more to maybe not get that much more compared to other offerings and future developments. We do not yet know how the S2 will fit into its niche. It may be the sexiest handling MF thing ever, and the images may be really great, which many expect them to be. The issue will still be if folks are willing to spend a king's ransom (for some) to get any real differences over what is now known in the market? We know some folks will buy into the S2 system. Will enough be comfortable spending that much to sustain the system long enough to fully develop? We do not yet know that answer.

    Not really trying to dampen the enthusiasm for the S2. Just getting back to the one thing that does not seem to be changing.....cost structure. Now, if Leica rethinks that part and maybe brings the prices more into line with the competition and target market it is claiming to be aiming for, we could see a lot more takers. That could be the game changer.

    LJ

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I would not bet. Tough critic here. I know it will do exceptional well that part is easy to figure out . The real question is how much better overall than what exists today and that comes in many forms. Some of that will not matter for a second for some folks but some will really matter on certain area's. Many things to consider here and really have not seen anything to convince me YET.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    LJ

    comparing prices I actually do not see much difference, except to some really older designs from Hasselblad maybe. And if it comes down to lenses, well you have to spend a similar amount on Hassi, Phase and Leica if you want to buy.

    And to be very honest, at a price level like this I am not sure why to care to much to spend some 4-5k more for a system, where one can get European quality lenses and not something designed and developed in Japan. For me this would be an ice breaker for sure, given IQ is on par with the other systems. But I actually have the feeling that IQ is better which we will see soon.

    Just looking into some of the images at Dpreview (I know these are only JPEGs) the quality is amazing and the lenses draw so perfect as not many others can. Especially I like the 180!

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Jack, you do the wrong conclusions here. Why not have the S System as the universal MF system for maybe 80-90% of what you need and keep just you P45+ back and go for a tech camera with some great glass. Why would that limit flexibility, I think it would rather improve it!
    Hi Peter,

    Did you read the part where *I* cannot afford it, let alone both systems? . Maybe I should clarify, and again this is only regarding me personally and I realize others are in different situations:

    Personally, I would not be able to justify the expense for a complete S2 system even if I sold my entire Phase-Mamiya outfit. The loss in flexibility of NOT being able to attach my back to a tech camera combined with the S2's relatively spartan lens line-up at this time would restrict my current shooting style and options. Thus, the S2 system as it presently exists does not bring enough additional to the table to be a serious consideration for me, at least at this moment in time.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    LJ,

    I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Leica to lower prices To the contrary, with the dollar where it is (and looks like it's heading) I won't be surprised to see a significant increase in prices... at least here in the US.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Peter,
    I understand most of your logic, I think. If the S2 is the system for you at whatever price, then by all means, go for it. On the other hand, we still do not know how the Leica glass compares to some other things, so saying it is the best may be premature when you do factor in other things. For example, if one shoots wide open mostly, the Leica glass may be a grand performer. We still have not seen any side by side comparable tests to know this. If one shoots a lot of landscape and other things at much smaller apertures, like f8-11, I do think most would be hard pressed to tell the difference among a lot of lenses. Yes, there will be some differences for sure, but they may not be that remarkable. Factor in the cost of the Leica glass, and it quickly becomes apparent that shooting smaller apertures may be costing you a whole lot more in the S2 system, with maybe no real differences.

    What I think will be interesting is to see just how the Leica 180/3.5 stacks up to something like the Mamiya 150/2.8 both shot wide open and stopped down a stop or so. The price differential is substantial. Will the image quality be so markedly different? We will soon know, but I am not betting on seeing all that much difference, and when you get down to f8-11, there may be none. As I said, it is an individual's call. I am less swayed by all the "European build" point. There are quite stellar optics coming from Japan also. Depends on how you use things and how much you care to afford to pay. Personally, I think anybody spending $5-7K for a lens that they will most likely be shooting at f11 is wasting money, unless it is some specialty lens. That is my opinion, and you and others may differ. The point being right now is that with the S2, you have no choices but the new, and very expensive Leica lenses. That does impact overall costs for putting together a system, as well as how complete that system may be for one's needs. Over time, we should see the Leica system filled out, but if you needed/wanted to shoot with something like a 30-90 zoom, you have to wait at least a year for that from Leica, and maybe pay $10k or more. No other options right now.

    Again, your needs are your needs, Peter, and if you are already convinced the S2 is the perfect camera for you, by all means, get it and enjoy it. For the rest of us that are yet to be convinced, there are lots of things to consider, both near term and longer term.

    LJ

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Did you read the part where *I* cannot afford it, let alone both systems? Maybe I should clarify, and again this is only regarding me personally and I realize others are in different situations:

    I would not be able to justify the expense for a complete S2 system even if I sold my entire Phase-Mamiya outfit. The loss in flexibility of NOT being able to attach my back to a tech camera combined with the S2's relatively spartan lens line-up at this time would restrict my current shooting style and options. Thus, the S2 system as it presently exists does not bring enough additional to the table at this time to be a serious consideration for me.

    ,
    Understand that of course and the price tag is high admittedly!

    But if you start from scratch and can survive with an S2 System, then the price is not really higher than for Hassi or Phase.

    What I am interested is ho far the S2 images can hold up against higher res backs with non Leica glass. This is one of the key claims of Leica for their S System and so I would really like t understand if it is true.

    But maybe you get so much attracted by the tests that you have to jump into the S System

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    LJ,

    I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Leica to lower prices To the contrary, with the dollar where it is (and looks like it's heading) I won't be surprised to see a significant increase in prices... at least here in the US.
    David,
    I am not holding my breath on Leica lowering prices. I keep mentioning it as it seems like the strategy they should be employing to fit the market segment they have claimed to be targeting. We all recognize that target market may not be their real goals, but we shall have to see how that turns out.

    LJ

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Peter, part of the price differential lies in the fact that hardly anyone buys an entirely new Phamiya/Hasselblad system any more. Maybe the body/sensor, but there are many good deals on used lenses out there, so the Leica looks a lot more expensive, where maybe it is not quite such a difference. Once the Leica has been in the market for a few years, one could buy a new body and a couple of second-hand lenses, and then it starts to make more sense for regular folk, if you can call us that
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Did you read the part where *I* cannot afford it, let alone both systems? Maybe I should clarify, and again this is only regarding me personally and I realize others are in different situations:

    I would not be able to justify the expense for a complete S2 system even if I sold my entire Phase-Mamiya outfit. The loss in flexibility of NOT being able to attach my back to a tech camera combined with the S2's relatively spartan lens line-up at this time would restrict my current shooting style and options. Thus, the S2 system as it presently exists does not bring enough additional to the table at this time to be a serious consideration for me.

    ,
    Understand that of course and the price tag is high admittedly!

    But if you start from scratch and can survive with an S2 System, then the price is not really higher than for Hassi or Phase.

    What I am interested is ho far the S2 images can hold up against higher res backs with non Leica glass. This is one of the key claims of Leica for their S System and so I would really like t understand if it is true.

    But maybe you get so much attracted by the tests that you have to jump into the S System

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