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Thread: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Peter, part of the price differential lies in the fact that hardly anyone buys an entirely new Phamiya/Hasselblad system any more. Maybe the body/sensor, but there are many good deals on used lenses out there, so the Leica looks a lot more expensive, where maybe it is not quite such a difference. Once the Leica has been in the market for a few years, one could buy a new body and a couple of second-hand lenses, and then it starts to make more sense for regular folk, if you can call us that
    Well, I have to count myself also as regular in that respects

    Anyway if you have nothing invested today and you can choose from the green lawn then the picture is a slightly different one.

    Used lenses are great, issue is if you really can get the ones you need at the time you want to buy. And this does not happen too often. Sure you can safe money here and everybody would be a fool not to do so, but if you compare with the complete investment of say between 20-30k$ (or even higher) then the saving of say 3-5k is kind of becoming much less important.

    If you have already a system and would need to sell this in order to buy into a new system, then it becomes much harder of course. And more "expensive".

    But I cannot help myself that I am getting more and more fascinated with the simplicity and ergonomics and assumed quality of the S System - as you can see from my change of mind

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Should I post a WTB for the S2? Is it too soon?
    Maybe I could by a demo or a factory second?
    At useful depreciation rates and what I am getting from it maybe I should wait for th S3?

    My expectations are high for sure, but for me to jump *right now* are imposible pretty much for the reasons that Jack enumerated.
    "too little delta quality for too much delta money"
    Now the point of starting from scratch might have some validity, but the system is still pretty narrow.
    Now if somebody made a Mamiya and Hassy to S2 adapter that worked well, if possible, that might change the dynamics a bit.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 12th November 2009 at 10:47.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    from what i have seen so far (including DNGs) i have no reason to conclude the the IQ coming from the S2 will beat my H3DII 50 or my P65 mounted on alpa with rodenstock and schneider lenses. it certainly beats them in handling and probably also in weight, which are by no means small issues. however, i do not see myself give up on the resolution advantages of my present systems. now if it had usable iso 1250, this would change the situation. then i might also be able to leave my D3x at home...but i really doubt it. iso 1250 on the M9 is already way too poor for my taste.
    so all in all, the S2 will be an ultrasexy, ultra-expensive medium resolution in-between-35mm-and-MF system.
    peter

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I am in the same position as Peter - no current investment in MF gear - so the S2 is very appealling and the entry price not that much higher than the competion. The S2 is clearly a much tougher sell to those that are already invested in a MF system. Also, don't expect (and I haven't heard anyone from Leica say) the S2 will out perform the Hassy 50 or Phase 65, but I do think it will compare favorably to those systems and then the S2 price looks like a much better deal.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I think that the discussion has underlined the potential market for the S2 very well. You have two larger segments and one overlapper.

    Segment one: is the I dont own a MFD system/I liek Leica stuff/this camera looks like something that I can use - ergonomics. Key driver for decision is about how well the camera system is recieved - as I do believe that the entrey cost is not really any larger than alternative systems.

    Segment two: existing users one way or the other significant investment in existing system - as Bob quite nicely puts key driver here = 'delta' cost of switching versus 'delta' benefits gained.

    Segment three ( perhpas smaller) : existing users unhappy with total shooting experience of existing camera systems vs Leica offer.

    Jack's posiiton is real world. Squarely fitting into segment two. Irrespective of benfits and appeal - switching costs are too steep on a cost benefit analysis - for his purposes.

    The whole MFD thing has been a hobby investigation for me and a lot of fun.

    In simple terms I have owned or own every top end system ever made. I stopped buying higher megapixels at 40. I cant see any significant difference between ANY of the systems. All that being said I dont use them much compared to my M system. In simple terms ergonomics is the deal breaker for me. If I want to use a tripod I will use an artec or Alpa. If I want to use hand held- the M cameras kill any MFD camera in output - you have the laws of physics working against you with the megapixel monsters.

    I have a legacy situaiton of course as most of me gear is now worth less than 50% of what i paid. So - same as using petrol in one of my cars - enjoy the ride pay the cost - no barrier to exit for me - I am actually quite happy to liquidate everything - except my M lenses and my V/F lenses.

    The S2 is a buy for me ONLY if its ergonomics make hand held use MUCH better /easier/effective than existing clunkers.

    One back stays to use on technical cmaera - everythign else can go - but S2 ges bought ONLY if approaches Nikon/Canon ease of use inhand held environment.

    As all mathemticians like to do - prove the the equation:

    I was offered a switch to H4D price using my H3D11-39 as trade in of $21K. This is no tmuch les than S2 price. I can sell my H glass for 60% of new value - easy. Haselblad and Phase One barriers to exit are more apparent (to them) than to me.

    -
    Pete

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I know it is something most people don't talk about, but have you actually some real offers from your dealers ? I really don't get it. The prices are similar ? where ? I mean just one very simple example: the Phase 150 2.8 costs me 2850EUR inc. 19% VAT, that is WITH a three year warranty. Both the S2 180 and 120, sell for over 5000EURs and at that point is there a three year warranty included or do I have to pay another 500EURs for the basic lens package ? On other lenses the price difference is even bigger.

    When putting together to similar systems, I don't even come close to a similar price at the end. Not even using cheaper used lenses or other benefits from an established system. Some of you most be getting some great discounts on S2 gear :-P

    Sure the Leica will certainly do better wide open and if i would shoot wide open, I would consider it, but for architecture and landscapes shooting from f8-16 I so far don't see a single reason to buy a S2. Still I will try it and test it IQ wise.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    ....

    Sure the Leica will certainly do better wide open and if i would shoot wide open, I would consider it,

    but for architecture and landscapes shooting from f8-16 I so far don't see a single reason to buy a S2. Still I will try it and test it IQ wise.
    Wide open is wher the rubber hits the road as far as what I use expensive lenses for goes in rangefinder or SLR guise.
    For architecture and landscape - there are better lenses and cameras to use than ANYTHING in MF land - <------fulls top.

    atthe end of the day the current MFD camera BODIES are crapola.

    Pete

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    at the end of the day the current MFD camera BODIES are crapola.
    Pete
    C'mon Pete, don't hold back... tell us how you really feel I've currently got three MF bodies which I use on my Sinar kit. The Hy6, Contax 645 and Hassy 203 FE. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses but I would give them all top marks.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Yeah well, that is another reason the S2 is not of to much interest to me. It can't replace a DSLR system and it can't replace a MFDB for architecture. However Pete your statement is not fully true, architecture does not only contain images where you have to shift and do overviews, it is sometimes a lot of work on smaller details and for that work, there is no difference between a P 150D and a Schneider 150mm, both are sharp across the frame at f8-14.

    Oh and by the way, the Leica can handle great, but when it comes to exact focusing a camera, it is missing the same aspect ALL MFDBs are missing. Live View...

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I wonder how the ergonomics of the S2 will fare (fair? I must be talking to Guy too much) once it is fitted with an L bracket...
    -bob

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I know it is something most people don't talk about, but have you actually some real offers from your dealers ? I really don't get it. The prices are similar ? where ? I mean just one very simple example: the Phase 150 2.8 costs me 2850EUR inc. 19% VAT, that is WITH a three year warranty. Both the S2 180 and 120, sell for over 5000EURs and at that point is there a three year warranty included or do I have to pay another 500EURs for the basic lens package ? On other lenses the price difference is even bigger.

    When putting together to similar systems, I don't even come close to a similar price at the end. Not even using cheaper used lenses or other benefits from an established system. Some of you most be getting some great discounts on S2 gear :-P

    Sure the Leica will certainly do better wide open and if i would shoot wide open, I would consider it, but for architecture and landscapes shooting from f8-16 I so far don't see a single reason to buy a S2. Still I will try it and test it IQ wise.


    No worries just ordered a hundred calculators that actually add instead of subtract. Sending them out soon here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  12. #312
    gdwhalen
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    You guys do understand that the equipment today is light years ahead of what Steichen, Adams, Weston, etc etc used. It is not about the equipment. "Moonrise Over New Mexico" wasn't about the detail (maybe q-tips and chlorox) but it was about the content. I can't think of one single image I've ever looked at that the CAMERA made the pic. It was/is always the subject/light. Always. Always. Always.

    I don't know of any hi-end camera that can't take any picture if the content and light is right. Try to relax on these constant squabbles about specs. Specs don't make pictures. Photographers make pictures. Specs are a distraction. A distraction from the time and thought and light that makes great pics. Large format, 35mm - they both have histories of producing great shots with gear/lenses that were 1/4 the quality of what is available today.

    Take a deep breath. Let go of the "if only I had the perfect camera" and shoot. Take images that touch your soul. Take images that breathe your breath. Take images that make you say, "look at this". That is all you need. You don't need this constant analysis of pixels, DR, field of view. Yawn.

    Take pics that make you smile. Then, you are a photographer.

    Now, back to my Pinot.

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Absolutely +1
    and as I recall the story, he guessed the exposure on that shot, now of course his guesses were better than mine might be, probably
    -bob

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    You guys do understand that the equipment today is light years ahead of what Steichen, Adams, Weston, etc etc used. It is not about the equipment. "Moonrise Over New Mexico" wasn't about the detail (maybe q-tips and chlorox) but it was about the content. I can't think of one single image I've ever looked at that the CAMERA made the pic. It was/is always the subject/light. Always. Always. Always.

    I don't know of any hi-end camera that can't take any picture if the content and light is right. Try to relax on these constant squabbles about specs. Specs don't make pictures. Photographers make pictures. Specs are a distraction. A distraction from the time and thought and light that makes great pics. Large format, 35mm - they both have histories of producing great shots with gear/lenses that were 1/4 the quality of what is available today.

    Take a deep breath. Let go of the "if only I had the perfect camera" and shoot. Take images that touch your soul. Take images that breathe your breath. Take images that make you say, "look at this". That is all you need. You don't need this constant analysis of pixels, DR, field of view. Yawn.

    Take pics that make you smile. Then, you are a photographer.

    Now, back to my Pinot.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I enthusiastically agree with this sentiment as well.

    (Of course the gear part can be fun when you can't be out shooting. )

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    You guys do understand that the equipment today is light years ahead of what Steichen, Adams, Weston, etc etc used. It is not about the equipment. "Moonrise Over New Mexico" wasn't about the detail (maybe q-tips and chlorox) but it was about the content. I can't think of one single image I've ever looked at that the CAMERA made the pic. It was/is always the subject/light. Always. Always. Always.

    I don't know of any hi-end camera that can't take any picture if the content and light is right. Try to relax on these constant squabbles about specs. Specs don't make pictures. Photographers make pictures. Specs are a distraction. A distraction from the time and thought and light that makes great pics. Large format, 35mm - they both have histories of producing great shots with gear/lenses that were 1/4 the quality of what is available today.

    Take a deep breath. Let go of the "if only I had the perfect camera" and shoot. Take images that touch your soul. Take images that breathe your breath. Take images that make you say, "look at this". That is all you need. You don't need this constant analysis of pixels, DR, field of view. Yawn.

    Take pics that make you smile. Then, you are a photographer.

    Now, back to my Pinot.

  15. #315
    gdwhalen
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I enthusiastically agree with this sentiment as well.

    (Of course the gear part can be fun when you can't be out shooting. )
    Then that answers a theory of mine. To some people it ISN'T about the images. It IS about the gear. Talking about it. Walking around with it. Looking at it.

    Diabolical. But whatever makes people happy.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    You guys do understand that the equipment today is light years ahead of what Steichen, Adams, Weston, etc etc used. It is not about the equipment. "Moonrise Over New Mexico" wasn't about the detail (maybe q-tips and chlorox) but it was about the content. I can't think of one single image I've ever looked at that the CAMERA made the pic. It was/is always the subject/light. Always. Always. Always.

    I don't know of any hi-end camera that can't take any picture if the content and light is right. Try to relax on these constant squabbles about specs. Specs don't make pictures. Photographers make pictures. Specs are a distraction. A distraction from the time and thought and light that makes great pics. Large format, 35mm - they both have histories of producing great shots with gear/lenses that were 1/4 the quality of what is available today.

    Take a deep breath. Let go of the "if only I had the perfect camera" and shoot. Take images that touch your soul. Take images that breathe your breath. Take images that make you say, "look at this". That is all you need. You don't need this constant analysis of pixels, DR, field of view. Yawn.

    Take pics that make you smile. Then, you are a photographer.

    Now, back to my Pinot.
    As recommended, I am taking a deep breath.

    First of all, I notice that you let yourself out of an easy trap by not saying "any camera" but rather saying "any high-end camera". You are using a high-end Hasselblad, aren't you? You could probably do the same work with a 5D2, with a little more post-processing, but you aren't doing that. The original saw goes "any camera", not "any high-end camera".

    While you can take great shots with any camera, you can not take the same shots with every camera. Try to imagine Ansel Adams Mt. McKinley shot with a Holga, and the impact is gone. His "Moonrise over Hernandez" shot was also quite uncharacteristic for him, in that it is not quite sharp, and was done in a furious race with time, so in that sense it is a bad example of Ansel Adams' work. His regular work was done with the very best equipment of the day, and a second-best lens for him would not have been good enough.

    You can of course still talk about any other number of great photographers who did great work that wasn't that sharp, but I think you will find that the vast majority of landscape work is done with high-end equipment, and the vast majority of photographers in this forum are landscapers.

    Furthermore, we have all seen large prints so sharp that it took our breath away. Or more realistically, we held our breath while we examined the amazing amount of detail in the print. This cannot be done with just any camera. You need something pretty unusual, unless you want to triple your time behind the computer, which none of us want to do (we need as much time as possible to argue on forums like this! ).

    So there is definitely a place for discussions and considerations of high-end equipment, and equipment which gets us a little further is worthy of our collective consideration.

    There is of course also a certain amount of fetichism going on here. I don't think that is wrong, and I think that there is probably no one here who doesn't fall prey to it to some extent, possibly except you. You seem to have a puritanical streak, as witnessed not only here but also on LL, where you argued for pages against equipment being sexy Maybe so for you, H-owner, but my Contax is sexy, period, and so is my M8! Hands up, Cube owners, you too are guilty, as are Cambo owners, arTec owners, and so on.

    There is a special blend of satisfaction and admiration that comes from handling high-precision equipment made from top-notch materials. Mechanical excellence is something to be admired, not disdained. There is pleasure in owning high-end, high-precision equipment, and the Leica S2 fits into this, hand-in-glove. If I could afford one with the ease of PeterA, I would put my name down tomorrow, but alas, I am just a poor programmer. The S2 may not be noticeably better than the competition, especially for the price, but it is certainly not going to be noticeably worse either, and I love the feel of Leica gear.

    To be honest, I hear this "it is the photographer, not the camera" bit a little too often to just take it on the other cheek. Some types of photos require good equipment, even if not all do. Some even require the best.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    It is actually a funny thing, that we talk so much about gear in the end it does not matter. I mean when I sold some stock images when I first started I had a mixture of 10D and 1DsMk2 images in my library. A lot of fine images, the one image that was sold for the highest price, was a 10D images with a cheap 20$ macro lens. The company loved the image and wanted it for a larger campaign, so they bought it for around 12k at that time. Would it have been a better image with a S2 or P65 ? Well no, just sharper and more res., however in the end the company would have not payed more for it. I just have to look at some high End art galleries, you can find some photography which technical isn't the best, but the images are just plain amazing. That is what we should worry about ;-)

  18. #318
    gdwhalen
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    As recommended, I am taking a deep breath.

    First of all, I notice that you let yourself out of an easy trap by not saying "any camera" but rather saying "any high-end camera". You are using a high-end Hasselblad, aren't you? You could probably do the same work with a 5D2, with a little more post-processing, but you aren't doing that. The original saw goes "any camera", not "any high-end camera".

    While you can take great shots with any camera, you can not take the same shots with every camera. Try to imagine Ansel Adams Mt. McKinley shot with a Holga, and the impact is gone. His "Moonrise over Hernandez" shot was also quite uncharacteristic for him, in that it is not quite sharp, and was done in a furious race with time, so in that sense it is a bad example of Ansel Adams' work. His regular work was done with the very best equipment of the day, and a second-best lens for him would not have been good enough.

    You can of course still talk about any other number of great photographers who did great work that wasn't that sharp, but I think you will find that the vast majority of landscape work is done with high-end equipment, and the vast majority of photographers in this forum are landscapers.

    Furthermore, we have all seen large prints so sharp that it took our breath away. Or more realistically, we held our breath while we examined the amazing amount of detail in the print. This cannot be done with just any camera. You need something pretty unusual, unless you want to triple your time behind the computer, which none of us want to do (we need as much time as possible to argue on forums like this! ).

    So there is definitely a place for discussions and considerations of high-end equipment, and equipment which gets us a little further is worthy of our considerations.

    There is of course also a certain amount of fetichism going on here. I don't think that is wrong, and I think that there is probably no one here who doesn't fall prey to it to some extent, possibly except you. You seem to have a puritanical streak, as witnessed not only here but also on LL, where you argued for pages against equipment being sexy Maybe so for you, H-owner, but my Contax is sexy, period, and so is my M8! Hands up, Cube owners, you too are guilty, as are Cambo owners, arTec owners, and so on.

    There is a special blend of satisfaction and admiration that comes from handling high-precision equipment made from top-notch materials. Mechanical excellence is something to be admired, not disdained. There is pleasure in owning high-end, high-precision equipment, and the Leica S2 fits into this, hand-in-glove. If I could afford one with the ease of PeterA, I would put my name down tomorrow, but alas, I am just a poor programmer. The S2 may not be noticeably better than the competition, especially for the price, but it is certainly not going to be noticeably worse either, and I love the feel of Leica gear.

    To be honest, I hear this "it is the photographer, not the camera" bit a little too often to just take it on the other cheek. Some types of photos require good equipment, even if not all do. Some even require the best.


    I think you missed the part where I said the equipment from that time as compared to today, that there is no comparison.

    But again, you may prefer to debate equipment. That may be your thing - so to speak.

    I am smart enough and old enough to understand that life is short and that people can do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, to make their lives better. If you like debating equipment or grammar or terminology - so be it. Go for it.

    I have shot Kodak Instamatics, Polaroids, Nikon's, Canon's, Leica's and now Hasselblad. Probably the best pic I ever took was with a Nikon FA while driving over a bridge, shooting through a wet car window at a fisherman standing on the bridge. Content trumps equipment every single time.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Christopher, while you may have been able to sell one 10D image for 12k, you certainly wouldn't want to try to make a lifestyle out of it. It is easier to sell sharper, higher res images for more, in the general case. Again, this doesn't hold for all types of photography, and it doesn't hold for any type of photography all the time, but it does hold to a large extent for both fashion, architecture and landscape photography.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    partly I agree with you Carsten on the other hand, people are so much talking about gear and it still is incredible how much bad stuff one sees from people using their M9, Phase or Hassi gear. Only because some people can afford it and it pays for them, does not make them a good photographer.

  21. #321
    gdwhalen
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Christopher, while you may have been able to sell one 10D image for 12k, you certainly wouldn't want to try to make a lifestyle out of it. It is easier to sell sharper, higher res images for more, in the general case. Again, this doesn't hold for all types of photography, and it doesn't hold for any type of photography all the time, but it does hold to a large extent for both fashion, architecture and landscape photography.
    "Easier to sell.." That may not be why some people shoot. Shooting for the market may be a smart $ way to go, it also may not be. That is like writing songs for the market. I happen to think that you have to shoot to touch your own personal soul. Whatever that happens to be.

    Not selling out to the market may be idealistic but, if history is any indication, it is the ONLY way to bring yourself real value. I'm not sure anyone remembers or cares about people that can't reach their own souls when they produce art. I know I don't.
    Last edited by gdwhalen; 12th November 2009 at 16:57.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Interesting tangent to this thread.

    Actually, I'm one who doesn't really care for uber-sharp images when it comes to wall-hangings. I never have been drawn to that type of photo. Sure, I like to have the option and prefer that my gear not fall short, but I print on cotton rag paper (mostly) to get away from razor-sharpness. There are other qualities to images that I enjoy.

    To each their own.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    I think you missed the part where I said the equipment from that time as compared to today, that there is no comparison.
    No, I didn't miss that. That doesn't change anything I said in the slightest.

    I have shot Kodak Instamatics, Polaroids, Nikon's, Canon's, Leica's and now Hasselblad. Probably the best pic I ever took was with a Nikon FA while driving over a bridge, shooting through a wet car window at a fisherman standing on the bridge. Content trumps equipment every single time.
    We have all shot all sorts of old crap and gotten good shots with it. But tell me, why aren't you out there shooting the FA through wet windows all the time? I'll tell you why: because making great shots with crappy equipment (exaggerating here, the FA is okay) is not as repeatable as making great shots with great equipment (except for a very few areas).

    One of my best shots was made with an Olympus OM2N and a 50mm f/1.8. Another was made with a Nikon Coolpix 990, a third with a Sony F828, and a fourth with an ancient Hasselblad 500C with a chrome 80/2.8 with a big chip out of the rear element. I wouldn't want to try to repeat that though, when I know that I now have other cameras which do this much easier and better.
    Last edited by carstenw; 12th November 2009 at 16:58.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Christopher, I totally agree. The fact that a good photographer can (sometimes) make better shots with better equipment does not mean that a poor photographer can do the same. I am a bit tired of the l-camera-forum at the moment because of the massive recent influx of people with little talent and more money. I don't know what tipped to make this happen, but if I have to see another sh*tty dog, cat or flower shot I am going to have to scream. Why spend €5500 on a camera and €3000 on a lens to take a shot of the cat and post it in a forum? Even worse in some ways, why buy a Leica M and a 35mm lens, and then just point it at crowds randomly and pretend that you are doing street photography?

    I try to push myself and my equipment in order to justify the expenditure. I would hate to think that as I get richer and more able to buy high-end stuff, I was still just taking the same shots. I look through my older shots regularly to make sure I am making progress in keeping with my outlay, at least. I try to learn as much as I can, and to expand into areas which I have previously had little clue about. Sadly, I have less time since my little daughter entered my life, but at least there is a good reason, and I still love going out for hours, just focused on bringing back one good image.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    No, I didn't miss that. That doesn't change anything I said in the slightest.



    We have all shot all sorts of old crap and gotten good shots with it. But tell me, why aren't you out there shooting the FA through wet windows all the time? I'll tell you why: because making great shots with crappy equipment (exaggerating here, the FA is okay) is not as repeatable as making great shots with great equipment.

    One of my best shots was made with an Olympus OM2N and a 50mm f/1.8. Another was made with a Nikon Coolpix 990, a third with a Sony F828, and a fourth with an ancient Hasselblad 500C with a chrome 80/2.8 with a big chip out of the rear element. I wouldn't want to try to repeat that though, when I know that I now have other cameras which do this much easier and better.
    I think you should speak for yourself. I will speak for myself. That way we can communicate with real words. OK?

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Anyway, back to the S2. There are certainly good reasons for some to want this camera. The small form-factor and easy handling makes it very competitive with other MF cameras in some situations, and I hope and think it will do well.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    I think you should speak for yourself. I will speak for myself. That way we can communicate with real words. OK?
    I don't really know what you are referring to. Perhaps you can clarify? I am speaking for myself, in case that wasn't obvious.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I think now we are getting somewhere. I think most of us can agree that a good photographer can make stunning images with the best (and right) gear. However the gear does not make him a better photographer, it just enables him to capture what he sees and wants to show in a BETTER quality. A photograph is not better when shot with a high end camera than a point and shoot. Just the IMAGE quality is better.

  29. #329
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    "But tell me, why aren't you out there shooting the FA through wet windows all the time? I'll tell you why: because making great shots with crappy equipment (exaggerating here, the FA is okay) is not as repeatable as making great shots with great equipment (except for a very few areas)."

    You asked me a question, but answered the question yourself. That is speaking for someone else. At least it is in my world. If you ask me a question, let me answer it - or don't ask. Unless of course you just like talking to yourself. And I don't mean that in a mean way.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Christopher, I can generally agree with that, but I actually think that certain attributes make images better, such as a lack of CA, higher resolution (some images look best large), better sharpness in some cases, and so on. That is the reason I personally am moving up the equipment (=money) scale.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    "But tell me, why aren't you out there shooting the FA through wet windows all the time? I'll tell you why: because making great shots with crappy equipment (exaggerating here, the FA is okay) is not as repeatable as making great shots with great equipment (except for a very few areas)."

    You asked me a question, but answered the question yourself. That is speaking for someone else. At least it is in my world. If you ask me a question, let me answer it - or don't ask. Unless of course you just like talking to yourself. And I don't mean that in a mean way.
    Alright, fair enough. So what is your answer then?

    By the way, in reference to your "or don't ask", please don't tell me how to behave. I will choose myself, thank you.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Yes I hope as well, that Leica does sell a lot of S2, that also helps to invest in the future of a S3 and M10. I just think that there whole idea of their pricing is faulty. Or at least for people who need more than just a simple MF camera.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    It is very expensive, granted, but I don't see how Leica could release a camera any other way
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  34. #334
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I think now we are getting somewhere. I think most of us can agree that a good photographer can make stunning images with the best (and right) gear. However the gear does not make him a better photographer, it just enables him to capture what he sees and wants to show in a BETTER quality. A photograph is not better when shot with a high end camera than a point and shoot. Just the IMAGE quality is better.
    Very true. But in an incremental way. I think that every great artist, carpenter, physician, tennis player, want to play/perform with the best equipment they can. But for every great artist, etc. there are 20,000 beginners that think if they buy a Stradivarious they will be the next Tartini. And no amount of discussion/debate/analysis will make someone a better anything unless they do that thing (shoot) more than they talk about the gear to do that thing.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I think we found the point. I have the opinion that the image is not being a better image, just can be displayed larger or in a different format.

  36. #336
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Alright, fair enough. So what is your answer then?

    By the way, in reference to your "or don't ask", please don't tell me how to behave. I will choose myself, thank you.
    I was strictly talking about your communication with me. You can talk/walk anyway you want with others. That was just my rule for my wanting to communicate with you.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Okay Gary, well let's stop here, this isn't going anywhere fast.
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  38. #338
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Okay Gary, well let's stop here, this isn't going anywhere fast.
    Fine by me. Been fun though.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    Very true. But in an incremental way. I think that every great artist, carpenter, physician, tennis player, want to play/perform with the best equipment they can. But for every great artist, etc. there are 20,000 beginners that think if they buy a Stradivarious they will be the next Tartini. And no amount of discussion/debate/analysis will make someone a better anything unless they do that thing (shoot) more than they talk about the gear to do that thing.
    Well, you are 100% correct, but that is what we humans do. Or let's say many. It's the same reasons, why in most critics people prefer to say only positive things. You can believe me that I wasn't very popular during university when I told someone his work is ******. However the important point when doing so, is that you can justify your self. It does not work only to say its bad because I have different taste. I can only critic work (positive or negative) if I actually have a real opinion on it and understand the work. Otherwise it is not helpful.

    Man people think, that they can do stunning things, if they just HAD the best tools.

  40. #340
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Folks,
    please be gentle-folks here.
    thanks
    -bob

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    I was strictly talking about your communication with me. You can talk/walk anyway you want with others. That was just my rule for my wanting to communicate with you.

  41. #341
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    "Easier to sell.." That may not be why some people shoot. Shooting for the market may be a smart $ way to go, it also may not be. That is like writing songs for the market. I happen to think that you have to shoot to touch your own personal soul. Whatever that happens to be.

    Not selling out to the market may be idealistic but, if history is any indication, it is the ONLY way to bring yourself real value. I'm not sure anyone remembers or cares about people that can't reach their own souls when they produce art. I know I don't.
    Missed this the first time around; the posts were coming so fast. My comment about easier to sell was just a reply to a comment about selling.

    I agree with this, in general. I don't shoot to make money (although I would love to make some money from it, and am taking baby steps in this direction). I shoot primarily for the enjoyment of the process, in fact. Sounds odd, but there you have it. This I could do just as easily with my old M6 as with any newer camera.

    Also up there is the enjoyment of the result, of course, and this is where I practice to get better, and why I sometimes upgrade equipment. I see technical flaws in some shots, and upgrade to remove them from future shots.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Equipment is a funny thing. It has two main appeals, maybe even three.

    Yes, it is merely a tool in the service of a vision or idea you want to create.

    Yet, it does have some appeal as an object unto itself. We all do have a good eye for good looking, well made things.

    And then there is some delight in mastering something ... to get control over it. In fact that can become an addiction by itself ... man over machine.
    I've worked with hundreds of professional "photo techs" that thrived on mastering the technical aspects of any gear, but couldn't shoot worth a darn.

    I have a very rudimentary attitude toward gear ... if I succeed with it then I love it and think it is the most beautiful thing made. If I don't succeed with it, I think it's a piece of crap and ugly ... and I don't care who uses it or how beautiful or wonderful they think it is.

    I have an Elephantine memory for gear that failed me. I resent losing one good shot because something didn't do what I was lead to believe it'd do, and I never forget or forgive. (I've been around long enough now to know when I failed, and when it was the tool that failed).

    I also truly believe what you select can influence your outcome ... based on your biases and beliefs.

    -Marc

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    we can't make a photographic image with the gear can we? seems a wonderful and vital part of the equation..sorry but the diana just doesn't do it for me.

  44. #344
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Missed this the first time around; the posts were coming so fast. My comment about easier to sell was just a reply to a comment about selling.

    I agree with this, in general. I don't shoot to make money (although I would love to make some money from it, and am taking baby steps in this direction). I shoot primarily for the enjoyment of the process, in fact. Sounds odd, but there you have it. This I could do just as easily with my old M6 as with any newer camera.

    Also up there is the enjoyment of the result, of course, and this is where I practice to get better, and why I sometimes upgrade equipment. I see technical flaws in some shots, and upgrade to remove them from future shots.
    Makes perfect sense.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    As much as these last few minutes were tricky, I have to admit that I love your new avatar, btw.
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  46. #346
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    A beautiful woman is always good content.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    It is very expensive, granted, but I don't see how Leica could release a camera any other way
    Sure they can depends on really several factors but a easy one is how many units does it take to get back the ROI on that investment. You can do it several ways lower the cost increase the volume of the units being sold or sell high and don't sell as many units. You can get there both ways. The slippery slope here and what i hoped Leica would have done is get as many in the door easily with less costs and sell more or even more important sell more lenses to more people and actually come out way ahead of the game. This is where leica and i differ on pricing. BUT

    Lets say we have 50 members right here on the forum and all 50 would buy if the price was lower but we have maybe 3 that will buy whatever it is. Now sit there as a OEM and tell me you would rather sell to 3 instead of 50. Now who is right and who is missing the boat. Now lets ask the 47 poor bastard that can't afford it how they feel. Obviously price is subjective and all that stuff but honestly that is just simple dumb *** logic there and we are all sitting here scratching our heads figuring if there is reason to go rob the bank for one. To me that is not good, you as a company want as many customers as you can get and that base grows into new customers and get that Leica itch that people have. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Gary, yes, but the colours and the angle and the (dare I say it) crispness of the image add another dimension.
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  49. #349
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Gary, yes, but the colours and the angle and the (dare I say it) crispness of the image add another dimension.
    LOL. I shot that with my Kodak Instamatic and 30 year old film.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    As much as these last few minutes were tricky, I have to admit that I love your new avatar, btw.
    Only if you make it so. Takes two to tango . Not aimed at anyone but it is a fact.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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