The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
The other issue is we will be limited by what lenses we actually get --- probably only the Leica 70 and 180, since I think those are all that are currently available... we may actually compare the Phase 80 and older Mamiya 200 APO to keep relative image magnifications reasonably similar, using a crop on my P45+ to 15% larger than the S2 sensor since my lenses are roughly 15% longer. We'll do our best, but any time you are comparing one sensor of different pixel pitch, size and/or aspect ratio to another, it gets complicated very quickly.
 
Agreed. The P40+ sensor and S2 sensor sizes are essentially the same size except aspect ratio (4x3 versus 3x2 respectively). In other words an object in the center of the frame wil appear essentially the same size in the resulting images from both cameras with the sme focal length lens. The 80D corners were not good on the "one" image shot with a P65 that I saw and that was not at max aperature. That should improve on the smaller sensor of the P40+ and a more controlled comparison.
 

carstenw

Active member
The problem with comparing the Leica 180mm with the Mamiya 200 APO is that if the Leica should come out on top, everyone will forever be saying "yeah, but the 150D would have trounced it" :)

I would use the best lenses from both system in as close to the same focal length, i.e. the 80D and 150D, and then use your feet to frame the shots the same. That is how they would be used in the studio or field anyway. If you also test the 200 APO, that is just a bonus.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Exactly both Jack and Mark. Lot's of variables which makes apples to oranges in a hurry here . What we expect is things will be similar and if Leica can achieve MF levels than that is a feat for them. Personally I'm not looking for some kind of winner thing here so my yada yada yada can get excited. Sorry ladies it had to be said. What I expect and hope for Leica is they can enter this market with great clean files and system that adds to our choices. That is good for the industry PERIOD. I don't sell these and don't care about market share or anything else , i want product that works. That is what we should be looking for.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I would use the best lenses from both system in as close to the same focal length, i.e. the 80D and 150D, and then use your feet to frame the shots the same. That is how they would be used in the studio or field anyway. If you also test the 200 APO, that is just a bonus.
Well then, when you do the test you can do it your way :ROTFL:.

Guy and I have been testing for a long time, and bottom line is we know that no matter what we do or how we do it, there will always be folks complaining we should have done it differently. Bottom is you'll all get from us what you get, which is how WE shoot and work. Beyond that, you can choose to take all of it, none of it, or whichever bits and pieces you want!

What we'll be more focused on (pun intended!) is the relative strengths of each system, and why someone might choose one over the other -- or even BOTH! We will leave price comparisons out of our review, since that factor is different for everybody -- and some will not care at all if it costs them $100,000 to get into a system, while others will baulk at a difference of a few hundred dollars...

Cheers,
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well then, when you do the test you can do it your way :ROTFL:.

Guy and I have been testing for a long time, and bottom line is we know that no matter what we do or how we do it, there will always be folks complaining we should have done it differently. Bottom is you'll all get from us what you get, which is how WE shoot and work. Beyond that, you can choose to take all of it, none of it, or whichever bits and pieces you want!

What we'll be more focused on (pun intended!) is the relative strengths of each system, and why someone might choose one over the other -- or even BOTH! We will leave price comparisons out of our review, since that factor is different for everybody -- and some will not care at all if it costs them $100,000 to get into a system, while others will baulk at a difference of a few hundred dollars...

Cheers,
Absolutely agree, no matter what you do you will always get complaints from someone :eek:

Anyway I encourage you to do YOUR tests and let us know the results, I guess that everyone who has some decent photographic experience over a decent time will be able to draw some right conclusions out of this. And more such test will never be able to bring, the only thing what might happen if you do all too "scientific" that your end up wrong.

I am more than confident that you will do the right things!
 
Frankly, I don't expect that you will test any different than as if you were thinking about purchasing the system (Guy? ) - you will test what is important to you. I expect a lot of the things that matter to y'all will also matter to the rest of us so your opinions will be meaningful.

Also, Guy don't kid yourself by thinking you don't sell this stuff. You may not get a commision check, but I'm sure you have sold tons of stuff over the years by expressing your opinion. If not, then Lecia probably wouldn't be sending you stuff for review. I know you well enough to know you will not suger coat anything so the stuff you indirectly sell has to be good on it's own. Nothing wrong with that.
 

paulmoore

New member
guy I picture you with that bill murray backpack on when out testing the s2.. guess you are now an official ghostbuster. I am getting my head around the new lightroom and while I was not in the mood to learn yet another raw processor it has some good improvements.. get yourself a trial beta3 vs lr2.5. I was able to correct the s2 raws I shot last week very easily..I can count on you to use a good color chart! too bad no 35mm to try out yet.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Paul BTW I think I downloaded some of yours and they really gave me a clue on it. I know more testing obviously and tuned software but some of it looked good so far. What i have seen i pretty much expected, all these sensors are relatively the same . It will come down to software , profiles, firmware and glass in the end on how it does. Just all of it needs fine tuning which for a new systems is completely expected.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Frankly, I don't expect that you will test any different than as if you were thinking about purchasing the system (Guy? ) - you will test what is important to you. I expect a lot of the things that matter to y'all will also matter to the rest of us so your opinions will be meaningful.

Also, Guy don't kid yourself by thinking you don't sell this stuff. You may not get a commision check, but I'm sure you have sold tons of stuff over the years by expressing your opinion. If not, then Lecia probably wouldn't be sending you stuff for review. I know you well enough to know you will not suger coat anything so the stuff you indirectly sell has to be good on it's own. Nothing wrong with that.
Thanks Mark I certainly never want to hear I steered someone wrong. That is a cardinal sin in my book especially at these expenses.
 

woodyspedden

New member
Well then, when you do the test you can do it your way :ROTFL:.

Guy and I have been testing for a long time, and bottom line is we know that no matter what we do or how we do it, there will always be folks complaining we should have done it differently. Bottom is you'll all get from us what you get, which is how WE shoot and work. Beyond that, you can choose to take all of it, none of it, or whichever bits and pieces you want!

What we'll be more focused on (pun intended!) is the relative strengths of each system, and why someone might choose one over the other -- or even BOTH! We will leave price comparisons out of our review, since that factor is different for everybody -- and some will not care at all if it costs them $100,000 to get into a system, while others will baulk at a difference of a few hundred dollars...

Cheers,
Jack and Guy

I think the value of you guys shooting the comparisons is that we have been watching your work for almost three years now. We have a good idea of how you work and what you value. That is especially true of those of us who have attended workshops.

So while others of us may value different things and shoot and process somewhat differently, we have your previous work and then what you shoot with the S2 and your comparison choices to get some realistic understanding.

Ultimately the choice of cameras comes down to how i shoot and what I value. No way I would spend the money to purchase a S2 or for that matter any other MF digital camera without the ability to use it for a couple of days. I don't mind paying the rental fees (assuming they can be applied to the purchase if I decide to buy right away)

Just my thoughts and opinions

Woody
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Woody and totally agree. One should get to play with this before signing any check no matter what the reviews and test say. We all work differently and all have different expectations of what the gear should do for the shooter.
 

woodyspedden

New member
Jack and Guy

I think the value of you guys shooting the comparisons is that we have been watching your work for almost three years now. We have a good idea of how you work and what you value. That is especially true of those of us who have attended workshops.

So while others of us may value different things and shoot and process somewhat differently, we have your previous work and then what you shoot with the S2 and your comparison choices to get some realistic understanding.

Ultimately the choice of cameras comes down to how i shoot and what I value. No way I would spend the money to purchase a S2 or for that matter any other MF digital camera without the ability to use it for a couple of days. I don't mind paying the rental fees (assuming they can be applied to the purchase if I decide to buy right away)

Just my thoughts and opinions

Woody
Not sure I came across clearly.

Point being is that we know your shooting styles and standards from three years experience watching your work.

My hope is that what we will now see is what you two can do with this tool, already knowing what your goals are (or at least close to it)

My plan is to view your work and to see what you pros can wring from this body and the lenses. If you are not able to do better than Phase or Mamiya standards, then we amateurs are pretty much in no man's land with great expenses to get there.

If you are able to do really well, then I would take the next step to get a demo of the S2 and a couple of lenses for a day or two and then see what my shooting style will produce for me.

If both experiences prove to get results that are salable and fun, then I might plop for the bucks to acquire this system.

I have heavy hopes for this based on previous experiences with Leica, and want very much for this platform to be all it is intended to be.

But at this price, seeing is believing.

Hope I made some sense with this clarification

Best

Woody Spedden
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Total sense. Could not say it any better myself and exactly the plan anyone considering purchasing it. Not something you just throw
money at without carefull evaluation.
No system is and given it is not a proven system yet even more so.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
For me the S System could be the solution - even for landscape and nature photography the 37MP should be more than enough, especially if in combination with the Leica glass, so you do not loose any information, but rather are able hopefully to get all out of the image. And most probably I could solve all my shooting requirements with 3 lenses - 35, 70, 180 for the beginning.

Having said that, the comparisons we are going to see from Guy, Jack and Doug will be one of the basic decision drivers for me, as well a hands on test I will do myself, as soon as I can get a camera with at least 2 lenses for a day or so here in Austria - will take some other 2 months at least I guess. But I am pretty confident that the handling and operations of the S2 will suit my needs and habits very much, because I have been shooting Leicas for my whole life and so I am very used to the ergonomics, handling and controls - definitely much more than the Hassi and/or Phamiya.
 

thomas

New member
For me the S System could be the solution - even for landscape and nature photography the 37MP should be more than enough, especially if in combination with the Leica glass
do you shoot landscapes wide open? With leaf shutter lenses? Handhold?
Why don't you just buy a nice used camera and a refurbished/used or even new P45/+ or a H-39 and finally start shooting?
 
Last edited:

Christopher

Active member
I thought exactly the same, especially if you don't shoot wide open, I don't think the S2 will be that special. Yes I will try it myself, but I mean for landscape work I think there are a lot options which are WAY cheaper. A P45 or H-39, + for example with phase the 45, 80 and 150, shot at f8-16 won't be any worse or better than the Leica S2, for a fraction of the price.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
It keeps coming back to price doesn't it?

There is probably a lot of "Wants and Gimmes" going on over this sexy looking thing ... until you hit the $50K wall. Then the brain steps in and kicks the heart to the curb.

I mean, we all know Leica should have a solid 24K gold dot rather than a red one for what we pay for it ... but something like the M9 is actually doable for mere mortals ... and it's a one of a kind, with no real competition ... not to mention pent up demand from generations of M users with a fortune invested in proven M lenses.

My marketing mind cannot get past the believe that they simply priced this incorrectly ... especially the camera itself. IMO, it should have been in-between the top DSLRs and the MFD system camera. Like $15 or 16K with a 3 year Passport and a top service promo for initial adopters ... and a 70mm bundle price to get people into the system. The price of additional lenses could be justified to some degree.

Like the M system, good lenses go on and on as technology relentlessly crashes forward ... but the cameras plummet like a shooting star in the summer sky. $2K for a $6K M8 before the camera is even broken in? That is a ferocious rate of loss even for digital cameras.

Leica folk are a particular lot. In essence, they want a used Leica that's never been used, something kept in a velvet bag and used by someone wearing white cotton gloves in a hermetically sealed room. Cost per shot has to be the highest in the world. Why anyone would pay 6K for a tool and be proud to announce that it only has 359 clicks on it a few years later is beyond me.

As the idiom says, "a fool and his money are soon parted".
 

Paratom

Well-known member
With all other MF systems you are able to buy a new back one day and keep at least the body.
This means buying a S2 is expensive, but updating a S2 to the S3 will be even more expensive-compared to other MF-solutions.


It keeps coming back to price doesn't it?

There is probably a lot of "Wants and Gimmes" going on over this sexy looking thing ... until you hit the $50K wall. Then the brain steps in and kicks the heart to the curb.

I mean, we all know Leica should have a solid 24K gold dot rather than a red one for what we pay for it ... but something like the M9 is actually doable for mere mortals ... and it's a one of a kind, with no real competition ... not to mention pent up demand from generations of M users with a fortune invested in proven M lenses.

My marketing mind cannot get past the believe that they simply priced this incorrectly ... especially the camera itself. IMO, it should have been in-between the top DSLRs and the MFD system camera. Like $15 or 16K with a 3 year Passport and a top service promo for initial adopters ... and a 70mm bundle price to get people into the system. The price of additional lenses could be justified to some degree.

Like the M system, good lenses go on and on as technology relentlessly crashes forward ... but the cameras plummet like a shooting star in the summer sky. $2K for a $6K M8 before the camera is even broken in? That is a ferocious rate of loss even for digital cameras.

Leica folk are a particular lot. In essence, they want a used Leica that's never been used, something kept in a velvet bag and used by someone wearing white cotton gloves in a hermetically sealed room. Cost per shot has to be the highest in the world. Why anyone would pay 6K for a tool and be proud to announce that it only has 359 clicks on it a few years later is beyond me.

As the idiom says, "a fool and his money are soon parted".
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
With all other MF systems you are able to buy a new back one day and keep at least the body.
This means buying a S2 is expensive, but updating a S2 to the S3 will be even more expensive-compared to other MF-solutions.
Issue is, that if you upgrade to a top end back, this alone costs around 20-30k, so actually the camera comes for free. There is not much difference with the S2 to S3 probably.

WRT buying a P45+ or H39 back and a used camera and 1 - 3 lenses, have checked on this and actually it is

1) not so cheap to buy used
2) you have to be lucky to get something which is still in decent condition - I could not find anything which would have suited my needs so far
3) need to be able to buy including VAT, which in many cases is not what used deals are
4) I actually would also shoot different images than just landscape of course and would use the S2 as kind of replacement for my DSLR (Sony) after some time, so the size would be great.

Time will tell, maybe it will be too expensive for me anyway or maybe I will get a really good used offer for Hassi or Phase ;)
 
Top