The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[Guy Mancuso]

Anyway price and value are very subjective to ones own needs and wants so from me my last comment on pricing. I'm more interested to see what it can do and figure out the banking later. Custom ski mask being made as we speak. LOL

 

[atanabe]

Guy,
I agree with you on price point - $24K vs $28K but when has price point really mattered with Leica? A 50 Noct for $10K or 24 Summi for $6K when Canon is selling for 1/3 the price (Nocti excepted) and the demand for those lenses are high. So after all of these years, Leica has grown accustomed to pricing their products with a profit margin built in which results in high purchase prices. What would make them change the strategy now?

The pricing of their lenses is a little higher than Hasselblad but not that out of line. If the R system were still available today, the lens prices for the R would be about what the S2 lenses are priced at. In the end, Leica has always been a premium priced product and the sales numbers for the S2 will most likely be met. I would personally love to see the price at the original target of $18K for the body but it just could not be done I guess.

-Al

Woody for 22k you get a 80mm lens also. Most folks issue is Leica's S2 normal lens is 6k and that is what has people concerned about. In all of historical time with photography the NORMAL lens was either a giveaway or very inexpensive. Leica chose a different and unusual path here and this is a very bottom line issue because the S2 with a lens is now 28k before any warranties besides standard warranties. This is exactly what folks are looking at and than additional lenses START at 5k. This puts leica in a very weird position. If leica IMHO and i said this to them dropped that standard lens price to 2k than there market just opened up a whole bunch. If we could drop in at 24k with body and lens for the S2 that makes it a much more appealing purchase. I have no issue with the other lenses but getting people in the door at 24k instead of 28k just opens the whole market. I know a lossy 4k difference and may not seem like real money but it is the appearance that counts here. To me and me personally makes this a much tougher purchase at 28k but most Pro's may jump in at 24k figuring 2k more is not a big deal. This is a very tricky line in the sand right here be it right or wrong on Leica's part and I know they wanted a normal lens to be special but 6k for a leaf lens compared to Phase's new leaf lens at 2400 is a BIG difference. This could break a lot of sales right at the gate and that is my concern for Leica.

 

[fotografz]

Victor for the rich not a issue but for working Pro's it does matter and you need to place yourself in those shoes from a marketing standpoint. The real question is who is Leica selling to here and what impact do they want to make on the Pro market or not. If it is just the rich hobbyist great but not sure that will brand the S2 as a Pro camera. Remember I'm the nice guy here but many working Pros will look at this and think Hermes and what is the point and walk the other way in a heart beat. That's fine for the rich hobbyist and there special camera branding and makes them feel good about life but WHO is the real market here. Obviously Leica wants to sell this thing but on the same hand they want to break in the Pro market and that IMHO is very important to them. New camera, new system, new tightrope on marketing and what if any direction should one aim at.

It may sell like hot cakes but that does not always mean it will be a Pro camera. How important is that title to leica over revenue. My bet more important than the revenue. Leica thrives on pride and without success to the market in their mind it will be a failure. Everything about Leica and I'm being very honest here they want to make the best bar none. But on the same token if it is not in the right hands than they failed at that attempt. They want Pro's shooting this thing.

I just have chime in here and agree.

Let's face it, Leica lunched off of the fact that many of the most famous images in history were done with a Leica Rangefinder by legendary photographers ... not by the Sultan of Brunei.

Now this is a whole other category populated by some pretty heavy hitters with proven track records ... that come with some pretty sophisticated proprietary software to get the most out of the big bucks spent on the hardware.

IMO, the S2 camera, standard lens and basic warranty should have been $22 or $23K tops not $29K ... which would be a typical Leica premium @ 2X+ the highest end DSLR with pro lens ... and just about flush with the heavy hitters of MFD. Then it might be a better contender for the Pro dollar.

-Marc

 

[LJL]

Here is another twist on some of the same stuff from above..... Based on Leica's approach, mostly the rich hobbyists and those renting the S2 will be the folks using it. Now how is that going to sit with some folks that pride premium prices and exclusivity? Just think, you will be able to rent an S2 for the weekend on the yacht, or to toss onto the back seat of the Bentley for that "tailgating" party at the polo club down in West Palm, and nobody will know if you own or rent ;-) How impressively chic, no?

LJ

 

[georgl]

The S2 costs about as much as the other two high-end-MF-solutions (P40+/H4D-50). Even MF-lenses from other manufacturers which incorporate similar expensive technologies (like aspherics or FE - the 35-90, Rodenstock HR-WA or 40IF from Zeiss) have similar price tags, although it's difficult to find comparable systems.
Each side of every lens element is machined/polished individually (mass-production machines don't allow the necessary tolerances), the borders are coated with black paint, they're centrated individually, many lenses have high internal rejection rates, every single lens is tested...
Lenses from other manufacturers which incorporate similar production technologies (like the tele-lenses from C/N) are also much closer to Leica-prices - while the other lenses are quite different, even if they have a similar speed and focal length.

"...Leica has grown accustomed to pricing their products with a profit margin built in which results in high purchase prices..."

A few years ago some of the production prices became "official" - they didn't make much money with their lenses at all, the 2.8/35-70 (>3k$) was even sold below production costs (therefore it never hit real serial production but was only delivered to loyal customers).

 

[stephengilbert]

Assuming that Leica does all those great and costly things to their lenses, why is it that so many have to be returned to Germany to be adjusted?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

USA based prices on the S2 which are not comparable to either the Phase P40+ or H/50 from the prices i have seen.

Bodies: (Oct 09)
S2 Camera Body - $22,995
S2-P Body with Sapphire LCD Cover Glass and Platinum Service Package - $27,995

Accessories:
Multi Function Handgrip S - $1,295 (Jan 10)
Battery Charger (spare/extra) - $399

Service Packages for Bodies:
S-Body Premium Service - $1,495
S-Body Platinum Service - $3,795

Lenses:
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH - $4,495 (Oct 09)
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Nov 09)
APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 - $6,495 (Oct 09)
APO-Tele-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS - $7,495 (Nov 09)
APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $6,495 (Nov 09)
APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 - $7,495 (Nov 09)
Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH - $5,295 (Dec 09)
Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH CS - $5,995 (Dec 09)

Service Packages for Lenses:
S-Lens Premium Service - $495
S-Lens Platium Service - $995

 

[LJL]

Here we are again.....it is now November, The S2 will not be out until January 2010 (?), Guy and Jack will not have one to shake down until next month, there are only a few RAW files to look at from a controlled shooting situation by Leica of one model at one ISO and a few stopped down aperture settings, and there is really nothing else to discuss about image quality, noise levels, performance capabilities, lenses, etc., so what is left....chew over prices, which by almost all accounts are still high in comparison to the competition. If Leica wants me to get excited about their S2 at this point, get it out there, get images out there, get lenses out there, and get real on the pricing, meaning get prices more in line with competitors that have excellent gear already in the market and proven. At this point, interest in the S2 just keeps slipping further and further away for some folks, myself included.

LJ

 

[Christopher]

I still find a few things amazing. First that Leica really claims everything is ready and they are just delaying it to get production optimized. (I don't think so, I think they have some SERIOUS production issues and are not trying to get a large production capacity, but trying to actually reach the planed production stage.)

Next point is how dump Leica must be ? No real raw files, no demonstrations about image quality... If they have some finished cameras, perhaps they should give it to some reviewers to make actually good reviewers compared to lending the camera to reach people ? Or keeping them save under glass ? (I don't really know what they actually do, I can just see what they don't do)

Last point again, about price. I still don't get it how people can claim, the S2 is really priced like other products. Yes the S2 is similar as the P40 or H3D50, BUT you can't shoot any image with NO LENS. Most people would use at least 3 lenses. Here the cheapest Leica is nearly TWICE the money the best phase lens is, not even talking about their cheaper counter part from Mamyia. There is also NO Rodenstock or other lens coming close to these prices. (In the Leica focal range)

Another question, is there now actually I real date for deliveries ? I'm just asking because some major Leica dealers in Germany have no real clue, they hope something like Feb 2010, but most state more something like March to June ......................................

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay Leica called test shooting date is Dec. 9th with no restrictions for Jack and I to post raws and images for all to see and play with. Getting models , studio and other essential stuff in order for this. I will also have a X1 on hand as well it looks like. i will check actually deliver dates with Leica when they arrive and hopefully have a lot more details to report on.

 

[ptomsu]

Delivery dates for the S2 will be a real issue I guess. Also from the dealers I know I get the message that here might be the first S2s in January, but if I ordered now I would not get anything until mid 2010. And not even to mention the complete lens program.

Think this is the real issue here. It will take another 2 years before the complete S System will be available and then there will be already the need for a S3 - when is this one coming?

By that time we will see 80-100MP backs from Hasselblad and Phase - really FF MF or even larger (maybe square again?) and then Leica will slowly introduce the S3 with maybe 60MP for a price which is higher or equal a 80-100MP back from another vendor ?????

 

[gogopix]

sensors are running out of real estate, and photons. At some point, unless the sensor is actively cooled two things are going hurt; noise and diffraction. 60MP is already 360MB for 16-bits and when I stitch I actually have a few 1.5GB tiffs.

I don't know how others feel, but goinbg to the P65+ didn't feel like a lot of gain (except for sensor plus, and that is going in the opposite direction)

with film technology there was a leveling of fine grains. Technology needs to focus on speed of readout (fps) and ISO before going to higher # pixels.

Victor

 

[ptomsu]

sensors are running out of real estate, and photons. At some point, unless the sensor is actively cooled two things are going hurt; noise and diffraction. 60MP is already 360MB for 16-bits and when I stitch I actually have a few 1.5GB tiffs.

I don't know how others feel, but goinbg to the P65+ didn't feel like a lot of gain (except for sensor plus, and that is going in the opposite direction)

with film technology there was a leveling of fine grains. Technology needs to focus on speed of readout (fps) and ISO before going to higher # pixels.

Victor

Victor,

fully agree, issue is that history has shown us differently and I have the feeling that the Pixel race is still not at the end. It is still more sexy to show the next sensor with lot more MPs than with just better ISO performance and speed.

The next generation of 5.5 and 5.0 micrometers will bring exactly these once more increased MP numbers - if we like this or not.

 

[georgl]

The P40+ costs 15k€ (19+k€ with 645DF-body), the H4D-50 20k€ and the S2 a little bit less than 16k€.

The more demanding lens-designs (which incorporate similar design elements as the S-lenses) from other manufacturers cost 5-7k$ (HCD35-90, Rodenstock Digaron, Tele-Xenar 180mm, Zeiss 40IF). But most of them don't have any direct competition anyway.

I don't understand why we even argue about these hard facts. Yes, most solutions are cheaper, you can get used MFDBs, you can get the nice CFV-39 or just a 5dMkII, there are many nice 80mm-lenses which produce comparable results near center at f11... But we have to keep basic technological differences in mind and appreciate them, or there won't be any choice left but "good enough for 90% / my wife cannot tell the difference"...

I have no idea why they struggle to deliver the S2 (I think they're busy with the M9) or why they don't show any large samples themselves (the first samples I saw in October 2008 could have been presented in controlled situations, too!) and we all hoped for a cheaper R10-alternative, a Leica-DSLR for "everybody" but we can't blame the for the prices in comparison to their opponents and technical achievements.

@stephengilbert
They're not 100% flawless but >99% of the lenses deliver the promised performance and the rest can be repaired (and Leica accepts them as underperforming and not within tolerances - there are no "bad but ok samples") in Solms for free (you don't have to order 5 samples from your dealer and take the best). It's the same production technology that is used for other professional purposes (industrial/scientific or cinematography lenses -which are quite often even much more expensive than just 5k$...). The rangefinder-adjustment you're referring to is an issue of early M8s when they hadn't replaced their measuring device, yet.

 

[Christopher]

I think the bigger question is in which direction the market is heading. If Phase and Hassi give us a 80 or 100Mp CCD sensor with ISO 50-400 and all that crappy stuff, than I think the S2 will do quite fine. I think the real danger for the S2 will be the second MFDB get's the point that we don't need more Mp... we need features and options.

I don't care who does it, but if somebody can get me a 40-60Mp back, with LIVEVIEW, a GOOOD 3'' screen and usable ISO 800, I will by that in a second. They can even charge 30-40 grands as long as the thing delivers. If I have to get a CMOS for that, than so be it. I personally think not to many people would upgrade from a P65 to a P85 if the ONLY thing that changes is the MP count. However, I feare that phase will actually do that and even give us the same Display as they did 5 years ago.

 

[thomas]

if somebody can get me a 40-60Mp back, with LIVEVIEW, a GOOOD 3'' screen and unusable ISO 800, I will by that in a second.

as to the model with the unusable ISO 800 you can buy it right now

 

[Christopher]

Thx, corrected ^^

 

[thomas]

Thx, corrected ^^

why? nice typo

 

[fotografz]

I think the bigger question is in which direction the market is heading. If Phase and Hassi give us a 80 or 100Mp CCD sensor with ISO 50-400 and all that crappy stuff, than I think the S2 will do quite fine. I think the real danger for the S2 will be the second MFDB get's the point that we don't need more Mp... we need features and options.

I don't care who does it, but if somebody can get me a 40-60Mp back, with LIVEVIEW, a GOOOD 3'' screen and usable ISO 800, I will by that in a second. They can even charge 30-40 grands as long as the thing delivers. If I have to get a CMOS for that, than so be it. I personally think not to many people would upgrade from a P65 to a P85 if the ONLY thing that changes is the MP count. However, I feare that phase will actually do that and even give us the same Display as they did 5 years ago.

Hmmm, let's see ... currently have a 40 meg sensor that's bigger than the S2s with useable ISO 800 ... live view is on my 30" HD screen because like most MFDs it's used tethered in the studio 90% of the time ... or on location shooting to a lap top run by a PA. New features? How about new AF systems for both the H camera and Phamiya. If the H4D's new off-center auto focusing innovation works as advertised, the S2 will be behind in that truly useful feature before it even hits the market.

Options? How about being able to use the $25 to 30K investment on a tech camera?

My favorite S2 option is the $3,800. service package for just the body! :wtf:

 

[Christopher]

Well, I don't see live preview as live view, yes if you are working in a studio, perhaps, even though it's still not great with such a low frame rate.... But hiking or on location is a hassle. A laptop is no replacement for live view. I mean how great would it be, to work with a Pxx on a LF camera and have access to live view like in every modern Canon an Nikon. It really would speed things up and be even more fun to work with.


"Options? How about being able to use the $25 to 30K investment on a tech camera" Main reason why the S2 is nothing for me ^^