The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[gdwhalen]

Christopher, while you may have been able to sell one 10D image for 12k, you certainly wouldn't want to try to make a lifestyle out of it. It is easier to sell sharper, higher res images for more, in the general case. Again, this doesn't hold for all types of photography, and it doesn't hold for any type of photography all the time, but it does hold to a large extent for both fashion, architecture and landscape photography.

"Easier to sell.." That may not be why some people shoot. Shooting for the market may be a smart $ way to go, it also may not be. That is like writing songs for the market. I happen to think that you have to shoot to touch your own personal soul. Whatever that happens to be.

Not selling out to the market may be idealistic but, if history is any indication, it is the ONLY way to bring yourself real value. I'm not sure anyone remembers or cares about people that can't reach their own souls when they produce art. I know I don't.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Interesting tangent to this thread.

Actually, I'm one who doesn't really care for uber-sharp images when it comes to wall-hangings. I never have been drawn to that type of photo. Sure, I like to have the option and prefer that my gear not fall short, but I print on cotton rag paper (mostly) to get away from razor-sharpness. There are other qualities to images that I enjoy.

To each their own.

 

[carstenw]

I think you missed the part where I said the equipment from that time as compared to today, that there is no comparison.

No, I didn't miss that. That doesn't change anything I said in the slightest.

I have shot Kodak Instamatics, Polaroids, Nikon's, Canon's, Leica's and now Hasselblad. Probably the best pic I ever took was with a Nikon FA while driving over a bridge, shooting through a wet car window at a fisherman standing on the bridge. Content trumps equipment every single time.

We have all shot all sorts of old crap and gotten good shots with it. But tell me, why aren't you out there shooting the FA through wet windows all the time? I'll tell you why: because making great shots with crappy equipment (exaggerating here, the FA is okay) is not as repeatable as making great shots with great equipment (except for a very few areas).

One of my best shots was made with an Olympus OM2N and a 50mm f/1.8. Another was made with a Nikon Coolpix 990, a third with a Sony F828, and a fourth with an ancient Hasselblad 500C with a chrome 80/2.8 with a big chip out of the rear element. I wouldn't want to try to repeat that though, when I know that I now have other cameras which do this much easier and better.

 

[carstenw]

Christopher, I totally agree. The fact that a good photographer can (sometimes) make better shots with better equipment does not mean that a poor photographer can do the same. I am a bit tired of the l-camera-forum at the moment because of the massive recent influx of people with little talent and more money. I don't know what tipped to make this happen, but if I have to see another sh*tty dog, cat or flower shot I am going to have to scream. Why spend €5500 on a camera and €3000 on a lens to take a shot of the cat and post it in a forum? Even worse in some ways, why buy a Leica M and a 35mm lens, and then just point it at crowds randomly and pretend that you are doing street photography?

I try to push myself and my equipment in order to justify the expenditure. I would hate to think that as I get richer and more able to buy high-end stuff, I was still just taking the same shots. I look through my older shots regularly to make sure I am making progress in keeping with my outlay, at least. I try to learn as much as I can, and to expand into areas which I have previously had little clue about. Sadly, I have less time since my little daughter entered my life, but at least there is a good reason, and I still love going out for hours, just focused on bringing back one good image.

 

[gdwhalen]

No, I didn't miss that. That doesn't change anything I said in the slightest.



We have all shot all sorts of old crap and gotten good shots with it. But tell me, why aren't you out there shooting the FA through wet windows all the time? I'll tell you why: because making great shots with crappy equipment (exaggerating here, the FA is okay) is not as repeatable as making great shots with great equipment.

One of my best shots was made with an Olympus OM2N and a 50mm f/1.8. Another was made with a Nikon Coolpix 990, a third with a Sony F828, and a fourth with an ancient Hasselblad 500C with a chrome 80/2.8 with a big chip out of the rear element. I wouldn't want to try to repeat that though, when I know that I now have other cameras which do this much easier and better.

I think you should speak for yourself. I will speak for myself. That way we can communicate with real words. OK?

 

[carstenw]

Anyway, back to the S2. There are certainly good reasons for some to want this camera. The small form-factor and easy handling makes it very competitive with other MF cameras in some situations, and I hope and think it will do well.

 

[carstenw]

I think you should speak for yourself. I will speak for myself. That way we can communicate with real words. OK?

I don't really know what you are referring to. Perhaps you can clarify? I am speaking for myself, in case that wasn't obvious.

 

[Christopher]

I think now we are getting somewhere. I think most of us can agree that a good photographer can make stunning images with the best (and right) gear. However the gear does not make him a better photographer, it just enables him to capture what he sees and wants to show in a BETTER quality. A photograph is not better when shot with a high end camera than a point and shoot. Just the IMAGE quality is better.

 

[gdwhalen]

"But tell me, why aren't you out there shooting the FA through wet windows all the time? I'll tell you why: because making great shots with crappy equipment (exaggerating here, the FA is okay) is not as repeatable as making great shots with great equipment (except for a very few areas)."

You asked me a question, but answered the question yourself. That is speaking for someone else. At least it is in my world. If you ask me a question, let me answer it - or don't ask. Unless of course you just like talking to yourself. And I don't mean that in a mean way.

 

[carstenw]

Christopher, I can generally agree with that, but I actually think that certain attributes make images better, such as a lack of CA, higher resolution (some images look best large), better sharpness in some cases, and so on. That is the reason I personally am moving up the equipment (=money) scale.

 

[carstenw]

"But tell me, why aren't you out there shooting the FA through wet windows all the time? I'll tell you why: because making great shots with crappy equipment (exaggerating here, the FA is okay) is not as repeatable as making great shots with great equipment (except for a very few areas)."

You asked me a question, but answered the question yourself. That is speaking for someone else. At least it is in my world. If you ask me a question, let me answer it - or don't ask. Unless of course you just like talking to yourself. And I don't mean that in a mean way.

Alright, fair enough. So what is your answer then?

By the way, in reference to your "or don't ask", please don't tell me how to behave. I will choose myself, thank you.

 

[Christopher]

Yes I hope as well, that Leica does sell a lot of S2, that also helps to invest in the future of a S3 and M10. I just think that there whole idea of their pricing is faulty. Or at least for people who need more than just a simple MF camera.

 

[carstenw]

It is very expensive, granted, but I don't see how Leica could release a camera any other way

 

[gdwhalen]

I think now we are getting somewhere. I think most of us can agree that a good photographer can make stunning images with the best (and right) gear. However the gear does not make him a better photographer, it just enables him to capture what he sees and wants to show in a BETTER quality. A photograph is not better when shot with a high end camera than a point and shoot. Just the IMAGE quality is better.

Very true. But in an incremental way. I think that every great artist, carpenter, physician, tennis player, want to play/perform with the best equipment they can. But for every great artist, etc. there are 20,000 beginners that think if they buy a Stradivarious they will be the next Tartini. And no amount of discussion/debate/analysis will make someone a better anything unless they do that thing (shoot) more than they talk about the gear to do that thing.

 

[Christopher]

I think we found the point. I have the opinion that the image is not being a better image, just can be displayed larger or in a different format.

 

[gdwhalen]

Alright, fair enough. So what is your answer then?

By the way, in reference to your "or don't ask", please don't tell me how to behave. I will choose myself, thank you.

I was strictly talking about your communication with me. You can talk/walk anyway you want with others. That was just my rule for my wanting to communicate with you.

 

[carstenw]

Okay Gary, well let's stop here, this isn't going anywhere fast.

 

[gdwhalen]

Okay Gary, well let's stop here, this isn't going anywhere fast.

Fine by me. Been fun though.

 

[Christopher]

Very true. But in an incremental way. I think that every great artist, carpenter, physician, tennis player, want to play/perform with the best equipment they can. But for every great artist, etc. there are 20,000 beginners that think if they buy a Stradivarious they will be the next Tartini. And no amount of discussion/debate/analysis will make someone a better anything unless they do that thing (shoot) more than they talk about the gear to do that thing.

Well, you are 100% correct, but that is what we humans do. Or let's say many. It's the same reasons, why in most critics people prefer to say only positive things. You can believe me that I wasn't very popular during university when I told someone his work is ******. However the important point when doing so, is that you can justify your self. It does not work only to say its bad because I have different taste. I can only critic work (positive or negative) if I actually have a real opinion on it and understand the work. Otherwise it is not helpful.

Man people think, that they can do stunning things, if they just HAD the best tools.

 

[Bob]

Folks,
please be gentle-folks here.
thanks
-bob

I was strictly talking about your communication with me. You can talk/walk anyway you want with others. That was just my rule for my wanting to communicate with you.