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Thread: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

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    The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Stealing a link from the M forum by a non-MF user, let's get a more constructive thread started on the Leica S2:

    http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/article...ew_samples.htm

    It is interesting to see the ISO comparison. ISO 160 is stunning, ISO 320 is still very good, but starting at ISO 640, the quality is not there. However, the last several shots all look underexposed. I would love to see what the quality would be like with high ISO but properly exposed shots. I presume it would improve things a bit, possibly to the point that 640 is okay, but 1250 looks gone.

    I do hope that Leica spends the time between now and Christmas well, and gets at least a relatively clean 640 out of it.
    Last edited by carstenw; 23rd October 2009 at 01:57.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Just found this comment on the Leica forum:

    "It's a Nullserie-camera build months ago and not usable beyond base-ISO."

    I guess we are still looking for a production model and its results. Perhaps David Farkas will have something to post sometime soon?
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    "It's a Nullserie-camera build months ago and not usable beyond base-ISO."
    I guess we are still looking for a production model and its results. Perhaps
    but the shot was taken two days ago. So it might be the current firmware... but we don't know.
    I wonder why he is posting a "review"... no NDA anymore?

    pfff... blown out red chanel. We should wait for better files (and a better RAW converter).
    Last edited by thomas; 23rd October 2009 at 02:34.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Something seems amiss. But lets be honest, with MF cameras like this no one ever really used film beyond 800ISO. Well, maybe the occasional doco photographer would, but it seems that's were the current high res 35mm systems deliver now. This is a serious low ISO MF camera built for the studio and location where high detail and precision is the main priority. Not an ISO demon. Still looks like an attractive camera for me but pity I'll never be able to afford it!

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Yeah, the high ISO results are not so impressive, but if it really is an early firmware in that camera, then we have to wait and see what is coming. The low ISO results look very good though.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Agreed, I downloaded the sample and was impressed by the tonality and detail.
    I must stress I'd love to own this camera as it fits 100% of my needs, both for personal and professional work. Just wish it was closer in costs to the high end 35mm systems than the top end MF systems. If the D3x costs $15000NZ approx, I'd pay (if I had this kind of money in the first place!) $25000NZ for the S2. Current list price for the S2 is about another $10000 on top of what I'm willing to pay. I really hope this camera succeeds as I'd love it to be a higher volume product with a chance of a price reduction in a later evolution.

    Perhaps I missed this too, but have Leica finalized their service backup for the S2 for us countries outside the EU and US? Last I heard the S2 may not make it to NZ at all because of such low volume and potential issues with service, replacement and repair turnaround. Can't see how it would be any better with Phase or Hassey in that department here either, but that doesn't stop them selling units to those few who want them.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    As I understand it, Leica is training their top dealers to be S2 support channels. This does rely on the dealer being willing to meet the requirements and go through the training. You might ask at your largest, most well-established dealer what their take on this is.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The low ISO results look very good though.
    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Agreed, I downloaded the sample and was impressed by the tonality and detail.
    I can't see anything that would impress me. And I am actually missing fine tonality ... it looks a bit unsubtle.
    Then again these are mediocre (and oversaturated) captures... RAW files would be interessting.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    That was me ;-)
    Of course I don't know what they changed in the final cameras, but those "Nullserie" wasn't meant to be shot beyond base-ISO - that's what David Farkas and Michael Reichmann mentioned in their test with the very same generation.

    The final cameras are presented right now in NYC - that's what Mr. Farkas said, or am I wrong?

    But we shouldn't expect any miracles, it's a current 6m-CCD-camera but due to it's microlenses it has a sensitivity range of 80-1250ASA instead of 50-800ASA (H3DII-50, P40+, P65+). Mr. Mancuso made a great noise-comparison of his P40+, here's the 800ASA-shot (1250ASA with S2?):
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/attach...6&d=1244980993

    Is any of the 20+MP-DSLRs usable beyond 1600ASA for fine-art-prints? I don't think so.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I can't see anything that would impress me. And I am actually missing fine tonality ... it looks a bit unsubtle.
    Then again these are mediocre (and oversaturated) captures... RAW files would be interessting.
    Yes, the files themselves are over saturated and who knows what variables were involved in the processing, but I do see some amazing (compared to my D700) resolving power. I'm not seeing 7x the resolving power as the price would suggest, but I do see something, thankfully!

    Like art, I suppose, the S2 will be what it is, no more and no less. Fingers crossed it will exceed most people expectations when it does actually see the real light of day.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Well, the high ISO stuff looks bad, really bad. However, it perhaps wasn't a finished camera and Lightroom 2 was used, which certainly didn't add to the file quality. L3 should certainly look a little better, even though I still think c1 has the edge.

    The low ISO stuff looks good, however not really better than something from my old P45 with the 80D mm or 150D mm. Now what about finally showing us RAWWW files ;-)

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Stealing a link from the M forum by a non-MF user, let's get a more constructive thread started on the Leica S2:

    http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/article...ew_samples.htm

    It is interesting to see the ISO comparison. ISO 160 is stunning, ISO 320 is still very good, but starting at ISO 640, the quality is not there. However, the last several shots all look underexposed. I would love to see what the quality would be like with high ISO but properly exposed shots. I presume it would improve things a bit, possibly to the point that 640 is okay, but 1250 looks gone.

    I do hope that Leica spends the time between now and Christmas well, and gets at least a relatively clean 640 out of it.
    Thanks for this.

    While I could imagine a combination of firmware and software profiles adding some quality to the higher ISOs, I doubt it'll be a significant improvement. We'll see. It does take more than a few days working with a camera to zero in on how to shoot and process for max IQ.

    Pixel Binning would have been a super idea for the S2 ... making it a better replacement for the high-end DSLRs, while providing MFD quality on demand in studio.

    It seems to me that the norm for very useable high ISO with the high meg 35mm DSLRs is hovering around ISO 1000 to 1250. Both the Sony A900 and Nikon D3X I use are really quite good at these ISOs once you learn the shooting and processing perimeters ... same for the Canon 1DsMKIII I used previously.

    To be honest, I don't see anything in the lower ISOs from the S2 that isn't already there with a medium level Phase One or Hassey camera ... let alone a P65+ or H4D-60 which cost less than this kit. The form factor is the best thing it has going for it. But if it can't get to a good ISO 1000 level it can't be a replacement for the Sony or Nikon I currently use ... which does have the same form factor ... and in especially in the case of the Nikon or Canon Pro bodies, is fast as hell.

    Time will tell.

    -Marc

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Really nothing we have not seen in MF today so jury still out. On the ISO front I don't expect it to beat any current back that can do ISO 800 really well today, my current P30+ is a very good example of that and many shots here that show that as well as the P40+. Buts lets face some reality their as well. Most of us already know when it comes to noise nothing is better than C1 to process in on that front. This is a nice cam but I am not expecting any miracles beyond what we have today in some of the newer backs. What will be interesting is how this 6 micron camera will handle diffraction. It was clear the other day shooting the P40+the limit is certainly there at f16. It seems the smaller the micron size the faster the diffraction limit hits. Thats science and not changeable. It will have a small benefit on Moire which I noticed in their test but Leica claims no moire which I still don't buy that claim unless there is a AF cut off at the Nyquist limit on focus. Another science issue that trying to get around is first not easy but also cuts of the absolute sharpness of the the lens. Really not a good thing if you think about it that either two things are happening the lens first of all can't focus to the absolute critical of sharpness or the system itself is cutting it off somehow. This one seems very strange to me and I do NOT want to hear marketing chatter on it either , this is a science issue. But obviously I am no engineer either but something here just seems off.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Yes, I can get similar results with my 22MP Sinar e54LV at base ISO, but then again, this is a normal lens. Wait until we see the wides. I expect to see more difference there. In general, I expect the sensor to be on par with the rest, and the lenses to be one notch up. We'll see if I am just deluding myself or if Leica can pull that off.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    I do see some amazing (compared to my D700) resolving power
    compared to a D700 of course. Compared to MF digital backs clearly not (by now).
    Leica said the S2 will match the resolution of the H3D50 due to the superiority of their lenses. By now it looks worse than my prehistoric P45 with the regular Contax/Zeiss lenses - not to mention Digitar lenses. Of course only with regard to the few S2 samples that are around; I actually expect the IQ to be better once an experienced photographer got the camera in his hands and plays around with the files for some days.
    Then again LR clearly won't help a lot to match the competition. For high ISO you'll probably need layers in Photoshop as, of course, with higher ISO a smart desaturation in dark tonal values does the trick (like e.g. Nikon does it already at the RAW stage). Too, dedicated (icc-) camera profiles help a lot even regarding noise, especially with Tungsten light. Now the Adobe guys write long essays why there is no difference between icc profiles and the camera "calibration" as implemented in ACR and LR resp. the DNG editor. Maybe in theory, but they still have to prove that they come at least somewhere close to C1 (or other applications using icc input profiles).

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    What will be interesting is how this 6 micron camera will handle diffraction. It was clear the other day shooting the P40+the limit is certainly there at f16.
    with the 6.8micron chips the limit was already the same ... diffraction starts somewhere between f8 and f11 though at f11 you still have the full resolving power of the lens/chip (maybe just a slight negligible loss in contrast at the image center). At f16 you clearly see diffraction on 6.8micorn sensors. f16 is totally usable, IMO, however diffraction is there.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Remember these files are using minimal processing by someone who has never used the system before. Normally we would use noise reduction at higher ISOs and that makes quite a difference. Firmware upgrades can also help. Having said all that, this was never going to be a high ISO monster.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    with the 6.8micron chips the limit was already the same ... diffraction starts somewhere between f8 and f11 though at f11 you still have the full resolving power of the lens/chip (maybe just a slight negligible loss in contrast at the image center). At f16 you clearly see diffraction on 6.8micorn sensors. f16 is totally usable, IMO, however diffraction is there.
    Thanks Thomas and this is true and I agree on my P30+ F16 is totally useable. The 6 micron it just popped at me more and I'm also on a laptop which makes it even harder for me at the moment until i get back to my big screen to look at this more. Pretty interesting actually
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Remember these files are using minimal processing by someone who has never used the system before. Normally we would use noise reduction at higher ISOs and that makes quite a difference. Firmware upgrades can also help. Having said all that, this was never going to be a high ISO monster.
    I don't think anyone is expecting it to be a high ISO monster ... but the competitive set is already there with constant improvement in Phase and Hassey Higher ISO quality .... especially the crop frame backs which do a very usable 800+ now. Even my old Leaf Aptus 75s was excellent @ 800.

    BTW, are you sure it was minimal processing? I also don't think noise reduction would fix the look of those high ISO S2 files.

    However, no doubt it'll do nothing but get better as it gets tweaked and into the hands of more skilled processing folks working with better post profiles.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    The high ISO files look under exposed and there doesn't seem to be any noise reduction applied. In the case of the other Leica CCD digitals, Capture One does a much better job of high ISO than lightroom. For the DMR the later versions of C1 made the 800iso files much better and a properly exposed 1600iso usable.

    I tried the two DNGs posted on the other thread (nobody noticed them because they were too busy ranting) and they opened in C1 4.8.3. They just looked like a generic DNG. I suspect since they were using Lightroom, they gave the shooter the files via save as DNG in Lightroom, rather than just copy the original DNG.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I have put a couple of dng shots from yesterday in a dropbox
    shot at 160 iso with the 70mm and the 180

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Here are a couple more shots from yesterday. They are dng straight from the camera. These files are from the same setup as Paul's shots. I did do a quick ISO test, but it is pretty much worthless because those shots were hand held without lighting and I ended up with some very low shutter speeds (e.g., 1/30 and 1/60) - not something that would be meaningful to post. My observation of the crappy files - looking at noise only - is that ISO 640 does have some noise, but it is not objectionable to me (more of a grain look than noise), however, ISO 1250 would take some heavy handed noise reduction to be useable. It is no better than ISO 1250 on the M8. I also noticed and odd noise/artifact thing going on in dark background in a couple of the studio lit model shots (see left side of file no. 165). I am not sure what is going on here. Some of the problem could be due to background itself as it was not pure black and had some signs of wear in it.

    https://rcpt.yousendit.com/759530971...bab3d81491cff7

    Mark

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    One thing to keep in mind while evaluating results from the S2 is that everyone seems to be taking them hand-held, something most MF shooters wouldn't normally dream of doing, except perhaps at noon in the desert
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Thomas, Lightroom 3 is meant to be Adobe's attempt at fixing the noise reduction algorithms. Once it is out we can compare to Capture One and see if they have really made any improvements.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Do not know what you all think, but I find these results - especially at higher ISO - absolutely unimpressive.

    BTW - LR3.0 Beta can be downloaded and used by everyone after registering, the official version will not be out before Q1/2010. I am currently testing it.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    now the DNGs posted look much better.
    As to moire... in the hair there are color artefacts so I expect there will be moire in patterns.
    Attached screenshots of conversions from ACR/CS4 (first) and C1 (second); in C1 the arefacts are more obvious, still they are visible in ACR.

    Carsten: of course, let's wait and see what Adobe improved in LR.
    I wouldn't expect too much from C1 with the S2 DNGs as C1 supports DNG files quite good but not as good as native RAW files with dedicated profiles.
    Last edited by thomas; 15th January 2011 at 08:40.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Thomas, Lightroom 3 is meant to be Adobe's attempt at fixing the noise reduction algorithms. Once it is out we can compare to Capture One and see if they have really made any improvements.
    Sharpening and chroma noise reduction are significantly improved already. Clumpiness and the watercolor look with sharpening which plagued the old processing engine seem to be gone. They haven't activated luminance noise reduction yet so have to wait and see what improvements they have there. Here's a thread showing some of the differences:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11163

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    now the DNGs posted look much better.
    As to moire... in the hair there are color artefacts so I expect there will be moire in patterns.
    Attached screenshots of conversions from ACR/CS4 (first) and C1 (second); in C1 the arefacts are more obvious, still they are visible in ACR.

    Carsten: of course, let's wait and see what Adobe improved in LR.
    I wouldn't expect too much from C1 with the S2 DNGs as C1 supports DNG files quite good but not as good as native RAW files with dedicated profiles.
    Thomas:

    I think that is moire in the hair. In C1, the moire adjustments fix it up a bit.

    Robert

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I also noticed and odd noise/artifact thing going on in dark background in a couple of the studio lit model shots (see left side of file no. 165). I am not sure what is going on here. Some of the problem could be due to background itself as it was not pure black and had some signs of wear in it.

    https://rcpt.yousendit.com/759530971...bab3d81491cff7

    Mark
    Mark:

    When I opened it in C1, the odd thing was there until C1 did its magic and it disappeared. Where you using C1 or Lightroom?

    Robert

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Thomas:

    I think that is moire in the hair. In C1, the moire adjustments fix it up a bit.

    Robert
    not quite sure if it's really moire. This is a kind of color artefact I've only seen with microlenses sensors.
    Anyway...
    The C1 moire tool destroys details, so be careful. Best way is to clone a variant and adjust the moire tool (and color NR) for the variant. Then put them both together in Photoshop and delete all areas of the second variant that don't show moire (so that in effect you correct moire only on the affected areas). Finally set the moire corrected layer to layer-mode "color" (if it's not a strong pattern moire).

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Just downloaded the shots taken by Paul and Mark, and opened them in C1. There is some color difference between the two sets. May be attributable to exposure, not sure. The tonality looks pretty good. There is a lot of detail captured also, and the roll-off from focus looks line a nice smooth transition.

    I also saw the colored artifacts in the hair that Thomas mentions. At first, I thought moire also, but they do not change with magnification, and do not show the more characteristic close spaced striping that moire tends to exhibit. So I am not sure if that is moire, or some masked moire from in-camera process, or as Thomas mentions, some other microlens artifacting of some sort. Does not show up anywhere but the hair, from what I can see. The fabric pattern may be too color saturated, or not of fine enough grid to produce issues.

    The detail around the diamonds on the ring is pretty good, and there appears to be some suppression/good control of any blooming or CA or any of the other stuff one might see around those sorts of light points. There is a very slight pinkish tinge around the diamonds going down the band, and that looks like a bit of CA of some sort, but it too is suppressed nicely. (Too hard to tell, and not trying to "see" stuff that may not be there.)

    There is some scary good detail captured, but hard to tell how that compares to anything else right now without a side-by side comparison under the same light. Looks like there is more than enough detail in the files to hold up very nicely for printing large.

    Thanks for sharing the files, guys. It is nice to finally see something like this and be able to go over it how one normally might look at things.

    This is looking pretty good so far. (I did not look at the other shots posted in the top link yet, as I really wanted to see DNG files.)

    LJ

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Yes, I think that what is seen so far is promising, but it doesn't clinch anything yet either. I am not sure about that hair. Is it possible that her hair just has a reddish tinge under certain light? More examples should tell us more about this.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I only looked at the S2 images I shot very quickly in Lightroom. It was late at night and I posted a quick link this morning so others could look at the files more critically. I am at PhotoPlus now so won't get to look at the files again for a while. I may try to get with David Farkas (he has his laptop here at the show) and look at them in C1. I already mentioned the noise/artifact issue to Stephan Schulz today so it would be good to confirm whether this is a camera or software problem.

    Mark

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Do not know what you all think, but I find these results - especially at higher ISO - absolutely unimpressive.

    BTW - LR3.0 Beta can be downloaded and used by everyone after registering, the official version will not be out before Q1/2010. I am currently testing it.
    Now you know why Leica is so adamant about releasing images taken with pre-production gear! Folks are looking at these shots and making bottom line conclusions about the camera. Plus we have no idea as to the skill of the photographer!

    I am staying open minded about this system as I have seen many files which are extremely good. Certainly they are better than what I could achieve with my H3DII-39 (but that probably speaks more to the photographer and his skills)

    I'll wait until I see files taken by the likes of Guy Mancuso (since we all know his style and skill level) or ones I got a chance to take myself before rendering judgement. At that point the camera will be final production and it will be what it will be.

    What we have seen so far should be viewed as early days and on the way to a final solution

    Woody

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I agree Woody early days and until a couple processing engines are optimized for the files than we just don't know. Totally agree keep a open mind some things are or will be unavoidable like moire and some artifacts just like any back out there. Just taking a few snaps at a show is maybe better to think it is real and nice to see it outside the production walls but that is about it. Just like the M9 I said within 2 hours of release don't even think about using LR until it has the correct plugin and even C1 we see the saturation is a little high on it. So one baby step so far. Not sure others will see it like that but I am.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  36. #36
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Just went over the DNG files that were posted again. Even without a good tuned profile, the C1 renderings that I have been looking at are pretty decent. All look a bit underexposed, but when you do boost there a stop or so, things still look really good. The shadows under the models hair do open up nicely, though they are still out of focus, so no details to really see there. The colors look pretty good (the neutral DNG tint in C1 still seems better than other options, so it may only get better from here), and there is smooth transition. That last part is kinda hard to really tell, as the range of things is more limited in this shot, but the skin tones do not look bad at all.

    I went back to the odd color artifacts in the hair, and remain unconvinced about moire. To me, these look like some odd conversion artifact or something. The details are lost and smeared in the red/green color blobs, so something is being done there, but not sure what. Would be nice to see some normal challenging things like the A/C compressor fins, shingles on roofs, and other places where moire usually jumps right out. That will come in time.

    The setting for these shots is pretty much in the sweetspot for what the S2 as pitched for....fashion/portrait/studio shooting. So far, to my eyes in these quick shots, it looks to be holding its own. Until we start seeing some real side-by-side comparisons with more color range and shadow transitions and stuff, folks will not really be able to judge what the overall capabilities are. As for doing this kind of shooting (studio lit portraits), these shots are making the S2 look pretty good....even without properly tuned processing profiles. I, for one, am not disappointed.....but there are only a couple images, from the same setting and lighting and at f9.5-11 or so, so I would expect things to look pretty darn good under those controlled conditions anyway.

    I did go back to the first link with the high ISO images.....not as impressive in that setting once you get to ISOP 640 or so. I realize those were not taken with the latest software on a production camera, so I am not going to put much stock in them either way at this point. The details look good, but the noise looks a bit ugly and is coming on strong a bit sooner than I was hoping for. Some of the stuff Guy has shown with his P30+ at higher ISOs looks much better at this point, so it will be worth waiting to see some more serious tests of the final production S2 under a lot more normal shooting situations to see if it really is hitting the marks for what I am wanting.

    On balance, the DNGs posted show some of the capability and promise for the S2. Cannot wait to see more once this thing gets into the wild and into more diverse and challenging lighting situations. Some of the shots folks are posting from the Oregon trip would have made a superb test bed for the S2 ;-)

    LJ

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    One thing that has struck me from these first images, and a couple of others I have seen, and I hesitate to post this observation so early, but the boke looks different to me than typical Leica boke. It looks more... gentle, or gradual. More Zeiss-like, i.e. more 3D to it than the strong isolation that I associate with Leica. Perhaps it is nothing, perhaps it is just because of the larger format, I am not sure.

    Has anyone else made any observations in this area?
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Carsten,
    That is sort of what I was referring to in my first post above about the roll-off looking smooth in transition. As things go out of focus, it looks more smooth and gradual, versus a sharper jump that actually helps with creating more 3D effect, to my eye. I personally think there is not enough to really tell from just these few images that were shot at f9.5-11 or so. Maybe looking at an entire series from the shoot would tell more, as would seeing a few more aperture settings to better make that call. I think we have too little to go on right now.....at least I know I do.

    LJ

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Another point....I also imported these into Aperture to see how it would handle them. They came in nicely, took quite a while to render the sharpened previews. The overall appearance, at first blush, is nowhere as good looking as the same import into C1. I could tweak things to get a better rendering, but initially things looked pretty flat and unimpressive compared to C1. This was a bit of a surprise, and I am sure that if Apple ever gets around to creating a good profile for the S2, things will look better. What this does tell me is that the neutral DNG file straight from the camera is boring looking. I would not want to be working on these files in Aperture until a good camera profile is created. That may be the case for all of the processing apps, but C1 is doing a pretty decent job right from the start, and that is good to see.

    LJ

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Are there any images out there shot wide open ? I mean yes the 70 for example looks great but at 8-11 there is no difference to other lenses....

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I can open and process in C1 Version 5. The 180mm shot well sorry it is not doing it for me at all. Obviously one image so far but it can't compete in MF with that one. Need to see more for sure

    Needs clarity level set at 60 which is twice as much as my P30+ . It's okay but that is a pretty high setting and not what you want to do on a portrait
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Okay looked at all four images and coming from a MF shooter they pretty much are on par with my back or a P40 back . They still need a touch of base sharpening to get to what I normally see in these type of files , the good news is they are no worse than that . So that is a good start for Leica but in C1 at the pre-shapening 1 level you are getting a little bit of halo's so have to adjust slightly there. No way it equals a P65+ folks so get that one out of the your head. It's good and what I expected and if this is the type of body and features you are after than maybe a good choice but still a long way to go as a system and it's whole parts as well. Certainly nice to see the raws without any one else's processing in them. Certainly any current 35mm shooter will think they are the cat's meow but pretty standard for MF shooters so far.

    Bokeh also looks pretty standard for both lenses . There color out of the cam is pretty good maybe slightly on the warm side.
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  43. #43
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    I am beginning to believe that most people would prefer to talk about equipment than take images. Signing off.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    I am beginning to believe that most people would prefer to talk about equipment than take images. Signing off.
    Not exactly true ... go to the threads talking about shooting and showing images instead of the ones about gear.

    It's always like this this time of year when the companies unveil their latest offerings.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Well, since some folks are preliminarily impressed and don't mind saying so, I guess it's okay to say I'm preliminarily not.

    It looks like a Canon 1DsMKIII shot to me ... except you can blow it up a bit more, or crop it more. I don't like the foreground camera right hair at all ... detail looks smoothly blocked up and a bit waxy. Looked at in ACR and C1-Pro.

    It's all preliminary. So, it means nothing yet. But, I don't like the direction.

    Frankly, I was hoping for a DMR on steroids.

    -Marc

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Now you know why companies do not like to circulate images until a profile has been created. I processed the images in Lightroom 2 and they look fine, no artifacts, the color needed to be cooled down a bit exposure pumped up 1/3 stoop and that was about it. C1 may not be the developer of choice for these files currently.
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post
    Now you know why companies do not like to circulate images until a profile has been created. I processed the images in Lightroom 2 and they look fine, no artifacts, the color needed to be cooled down a bit exposure pumped up 1/3 stoop and that was about it. C1 may not be the developer of choice for these files currently.
    Yet, they released the M9 without a tweaked Profile ??????

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Frankly, I was hoping for a DMR on steroids.

    -Marc
    The early DMR shots didn't look that great either. I think there was a new firmware for it within a month of release that improved things. The latest firmware and the latest versions of Flexcolor and C1 did wonders for the DMR too.

    I would give it a break until it is more widely used. Guy needs to get one and start a S2 vs .. thread and see where it goes

    Robert

  49. #49
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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, since some folks are preliminarily impressed and don't mind saying so, I guess it's okay to say I'm preliminarily not.

    It looks like a Canon 1DsMKIII shot to me ... except you can blow it up a bit more, or crop it more. I don't like the foreground camera right hair at all ... detail looks smoothly blocked up and a bit waxy. Looked at in ACR and C1-Pro.

    It's all preliminary. So, it means nothing yet. But, I don't like the direction.

    Frankly, I was hoping for a DMR on steroids.

    -Marc
    I'm glad Marc finally said what I've been afraid to... I've yet to see a file from this camera that turns me on. In the pre-production examples at the top of the thread, the bokeh on the samples had distinct "bright-ring" effects that I was hoping not to see from the Leica optics. None of the 3d rendering I've been enjoying from the m9 images. None of this is an indictment on the photography...

    Skin... just looks strange. Tons of detail... but a (to borrow Marc's word in a different context) waxiness on skin as well. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm used to seeing skin that looks bad, lol, and now I'm finally seeing the light.

    All that said (disclaimer), I withhold final judgment until more stuff is out.

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    Re: The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yet, they released the M9 without a tweaked Profile ??????
    It is the sorry state of the industry I guess. One company makes the sensor, another adds it to the body and another one creates the software to make it all work. When one drops the ball, the whole train stops. As far as a tweaked profile is concerned, Leica is at the mercy of Adobe, Phase One, Aperture to come up with the correct profile for their cameras.

    The real world today exists with no standards, with film, the chemical process was a true standard and manufactures would engineer the emulsion to work with that chemical process. Now every manufacturer has their own proprietary sensor - raw format and of course their own developer (Software).
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

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