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P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

bensonga

Well-known member
Phase One monochrome back?

Any thoughts on this from the Phase One users here?

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/achromatic.shtml

A few months ago I had asked about the Megavision monochrome back. This looks like a fine update to that concept.

One question.....is it likely to satisfy the folks who feel that black and white from digital sensors doesn't fit the bill and still prefer the look of B&W film?

Now if they could just get the price down to about $10k or so. :)

Gary
 

carstenw

Active member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?

It is a very neat back, and the higher resolution might excite some, but the difference isn't that large in the end... The images are very smooth, and have a natural look at 100% that IMO is missing in standard Phase colour back results, but the ability to tweak the B&W result from juggling the various colours is lost, and so paradoxically the colour backs might be better for B&W. I suppose the really interesting feature then is the ability to play with IR and UV. The price is very high just for that purpose though. My guess is that in the end, a few well-heeled amateurs and perhaps a couple of pros looking for something different will buy one, but that the vast bulk of sales will come from scientific users.
 

yaya

Active member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?

What could have been REALY nice is if you shoot through R,G and B filters like on the old Leaf Volare, giving you pure 39MP in each channel...then put the 3 layers together somehow.
This can put any current multi-shot solution in the deep shade...in terms of both resolution and colour depth...
 

H3dtogo

New member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?

This might be possible Yaya, perhaps by using the additif color filters used for color printing in the seventies. Or symply the color weel that the cantare and volare used to use. One then need software to arrange those 3 images to an images that can be used......:D
 

thomas

New member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?

BTW: in the third part of the article on LuLa you'll see the interface of C1 V5
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?

We're a dealer for this new back. I should be getting some hands-on time in the next few weeks and will report back.

However, the claims (which we will be testing) is for significantly better resolution (manifested most greatly when uprezing), better tonal smoothness, a bit better dynamic range, and the ability to use IR and UV.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?

Remember that a high quality 4x5 infrared film is now about $2/shot to purchase, $10/shot to process and $100 for a mid quality drum scan. With IR film it's VERY hard to meter perfectly, so you need to bracket any important shot. So assuming you shoot 5 scenes (x3 for bracketing) each time you go out and you go out twice a week and expect two keepers per shoot you can expect to spend around $40,000 on film/processing/scanning in ONE YEAR.

Now OF COURSE, if you're going to process the film yourself and maintain a fully functional darkroom for printing then that's way less expensive. However, not every photographer interested in very high quality IR capture will want to maintain a full darkroom in which to use it.

And that's just talking about IR; there is also a world of UV, and normal Black and White to discover (or rediscover as most of us have shot traditional b+w at some point in the past).

There is a also a good chance that if we are pleased by our testing that we will have one available for rental (probably $500/day or $2000/week - accommodations made for days of travel). I see this being something you would rent for a "once in a lifetime" trip especially if you already own a digital back and the bodies/lenses to use it with.

And FWIW I've shot IR with a Canon A620, Olympus E-10 (not modified), Canon 1Ds (not modified), Canon 20D IR-mod, Canon 5D IR mod, and a P45+ IR and nothing came even close to the P45+ IR. If this back delivers what it says then it will be *several* steps beyond a P45+ IR because in IR exposure the 45+ IR mostly picks up data on the red channel, so this achromatic back will have 4 times as much information.

We'll see when I do the testing.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Don Libby

Well-known member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?

While I like the concept I’m nevertheless on the fence and will wait for Doug’s testing report. I’ve used the P45+ IR lens filter with great results before having the 1DsII modified and was very pleased with the results. I’m also extremely pleased with the results from the 1DsII and can only figure a fully modified digital back would be even better. The price is the only real killer.

Doug – are there plans for doing this for either the P20 series?
 

bensonga

Well-known member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?

I was wondering how much appeal this will have for folks who are happy with digital color, but have not been happy with digital color to B&W conversions and so they still shoot B&W film.

Personally, I've been happy with digital color to B&W conversion, so I don't really see an overwhelming need to shoot B&W film (although I still do, just for the fun of it). So the main appeal for me here would be the higher resolution results, if that proves to be the case. For example, the difference between the black spots on the red tomatoes in the LL review was really striking and frankly, I was surprised there was such a difference between the Achromatic+ back and the color back on that part of the image.

Gary
 

vieri

Well-known member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?

I was wondering how much appeal this will have for folks who are happy with digital color, but have not been happy with digital color to B&W conversions and so they still shoot B&W film.

...

Gary
I am one of those who still shoots (a lot) of BW film on every job & for personal use. I simply find the texture & gradation of film better than digital BW, and I have been waiting for a long time for a BW digital camera - I hoped Leica would do something of that sort, and when my Phase rep here told me about it I though it was cool but probably would cost too much for me to make it a viable alternative to keep using film - which apparently is the case, though I appreciate and understand the special scientific applications it might have and the appeal it might have in such fields at any price. Plus, I'd love to see some more samples, and how the apparent technical problems with focus etc have been solved. :D however, it is very good IMHO that BW sensors start to be around, and I commend Phase for that!
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Capture Integration was able to obtain a demo version of this back for us to try in Oregon, so I will have some files to share. Dave Gallagher and Doug Peterson from CI did significant testing with this back against both the regular P45+ and a P65+, and will be posting their results and impressions too.

I need some time with the files to understand how they behave and how to extract the most from them, so hope to be getting some of the images up and sharing my initial impressions next week, after I've had a chance to work with them on my studio machine.

Understand that since this back is full spectrum monochrome, there is no Bayer filter and by using different filtration you can capture high UV only, visible only, IR only (various bands) and broad spectrum visible + IR. One could also make a true-color per-pixel image stack by taking 3 images, one each with a Red, Green and Blue filter and then merging them in CS. In short, the options and prospects for this back are endless and of course I barely scratched the surface.

With that all said and Dave and Doug's results notwithstanding, I will simply say this back definitely shows promise for those wanting to do true monochrome captures. My first-glance feeling is the detail available is comparable to what 8x10 negative film generated with the best lenses and techniques, plus DR is broad enough that one should easily be able to duplicate a response curve that closely parallels their favorite B&W emulsion --- or moreover, with experimentation one will be able to create their own super-recipe B&W response curve/profile.

IMO Sir Ansel would have been all over this ;). Stay tuned for more to come, and feel free to ask questions -- just understand I may not have many answers!
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Reminded me very much of looking at Tech Pan from my film days. Truly outstanding detail. I agree Ansel would have been first in line to get one.
 

routlaw

Member
Understand that since this back is full spectrum monochrome, there is no Bayer filter and by using different filtration you can capture high UV only, visible only, IR only (various bands) and broad spectrum visible + IR. One could also make a true-color per-pixel image stack by taking 3 images, one each with a Red, Green and Blue filter and then merging them in CS. In short, the options and prospects for this back are endless and of course I barely scratched the surface.
Jack correct me if I am wrong but back in the mid to late 90's both Megavision and I think Sinar also produced a similar setup with a 3 shot mode RGB filter color wheel type of deal. I remember seeing the files/prints from those and they were impressive indeed even back then. Sounds like P1 might have re-created a winner here.

Rob
 

carstenw

Active member
I think this is also essentially what comes out of a 4-shot back, although it doesn't use filters, but moves the sensor so all (final) pixels see all colours. I suppose you lose a row of pixels around the edge.
 
I saw this back at Photo Expo in NYC this week. I'm sure the image quality is great but why shoot b&w. Isn't there more flexibility with shooting color? I guess the no bayer filter thing prevents some issues. IR photography is certainly a good reason though. Whats the price?
 
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