T
tetsrfun
Guest
Whats the price?
*******
$41,990 USD.
Steve
*******
$41,990 USD.
Steve
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P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back
- Thread starter bensonga
- Start date
bensonga
Well-known member
Anxiously waiting for your thoughts, impressions and images from this back. Kudos to Phase One for developing it. If it even comes close to the quality of a well scanned 8x10 negative...that's impressive.
I only wish it was something mere mortals could afford....maybe someday.
Gary
I only wish it was something mere mortals could afford....maybe someday.
Gary
brianc1959
New member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?
Megavision is also now marketing an interesting multispectral system for UV-VIS-IR analysis of ancient documents and artwork:http://www.mega-vision.com/cultural_heritage.html
Since your post a few months ago Megavision has updated their website, and they are actively selling a line of monochrome backs: http://www.mega-vision.com/e6.htmlAny thoughts on this from the Phase One users here?
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/achromatic.shtml
A few months ago I had asked about the Megavision monochrome back. This looks like a fine update to that concept.
One question.....is it likely to satisfy the folks who feel that black and white from digital sensors doesn't fit the bill and still prefer the look of B&W film?
Now if they could just get the price down to about $10k or so.
Gary
Megavision is also now marketing an interesting multispectral system for UV-VIS-IR analysis of ancient documents and artwork:http://www.mega-vision.com/cultural_heritage.html
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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Samples, varied and real-life, are coming.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Re: Phase One monochrome back?
I looked at most of the images shot and it is a very exciting back. Certainly has the advantage over a bayer layer back for B&W. Plus you have options on the look you are after.I am one of those who still shoots (a lot) of BW film on every job & for personal use. I simply find the texture & gradation of film better than digital BW, and I have been waiting for a long time for a BW digital camera - I hoped Leica would do something of that sort, and when my Phase rep here told me about it I though it was cool but probably would cost too much for me to make it a viable alternative to keep using film - which apparently is the case, though I appreciate and understand the special scientific applications it might have and the appeal it might have in such fields at any price. Plus, I'd love to see some more samples, and how the apparent technical problems with focus etc have been solved.however, it is very good IMHO that BW sensors start to be around, and I commend Phase for that!
Here are some initial comparison images Doug and I took together for you to look at.
Caveats:
1) This is me working the files with essentially ZERO refinement time learning processing for the mono files and I am absolutely certain more can be gleaned from them, so do not take this as the end-all comparison -- think of it more as my introduction;
2) Because it's a mono back, you need to use color filters over the lens to render colors as you want them to appear tonally, just as we did with B&W film -- and we did not have those filters;
3) This is only a single comparison image and we'll all want to see many before we draw final or even meaningful conclusions;
4) This comparison is with the mono back and UV-IR cut filter in place, rendering an essentially visible spectrum mono image to compare to the visible color image;
5) The light was variable cloudy skies, so we used DIFFERENT camera bodies and lenses for the captures, making the captures at the same time to insure consistent lighting -- so there is a slight variation in taking position. The images were made with different lenses of the same spec (Mamiya 45 AF-D at f12).
6) Exposures are different due to the change in effective speed of the mono back (it gains about 1-1/3 stop or so over the Bayer back*), though f12 was used for both captures. F12 was chosen to supply the most DoF while at the same time limiting the effects of diffraction. Histograms are very close at the top and not clipped, inferring exposures were as close as possible for this comparison. (*The actual exposure difference is very dependent on lighting and which filter you have in place.)
7) This test was NOT scientifically controlled, I admit that, so please don't flame us for inadequate testing! the goal here is just to share some images and crops
That said, here we go.
First the full color image and the full Mono image for reference. The color image was processed to neutral WB, other settings were equal for both files C1, but not all of the same sliders are available to the mono file. My effort here was to make them both relatively neutral in all aspects:
Now here are some crops. First will be the Color image, second will be the color image converted to monochrome in CS in my attempt t to make it somewhat similar to the mono tonality for comparison purposes, and final is the mono crop. I pulled from the center since this is where we focused and the best part of the lenses:
Final caveat is these are compressed jpegs, so some artifacting will be present, my comments are made based on viewing the tiff on my studio system and NOT these jpegs. That said, what I would say to you is to look at the lines. I see much less "digital stepping" along the angled wires, ropes and poles from the mono file. I also see more tonal range in the darker tones -- and this makes sense since the bottom of the mono histo was spread wider when the tops were matched. Even so, look at the transition detail in the darker areas with highlights like where the tape is wrapped -- I see notably longer tonal gradation in the highlight. Next look at the detail in some of the larger ropes and lines themselves -- I can see thread flecks in the mono file that look like threads, while they artifact in the color file; similarly, the braids in the ropes appear more natural in the mono file while they again artifact in the color file. Finally, the midrange tonal transitions are smoother, longer and simply more natural in the mono file.
In short, I see the mono file rendering high-frequency detail better, more smoothly and more naturally, along with rendering edges in the coarser detail more smoothly and naturally, while at the same time rendering cleaner, smoother overall tonality. And I know many of you think the differences are subtle -- and you're right, at least maybe... But for the mono shooter wanting the best file possible, IMHO this is how they'll be looking and what they'll be looking for.
=> After upload PS: There are definitely some jpeg artifacts in the crops. Most notably are what look like sharpening halos along some of the edges on all images, these are not present in the tiffs --- but the difference in stepping is.
Caveats:
1) This is me working the files with essentially ZERO refinement time learning processing for the mono files and I am absolutely certain more can be gleaned from them, so do not take this as the end-all comparison -- think of it more as my introduction;
2) Because it's a mono back, you need to use color filters over the lens to render colors as you want them to appear tonally, just as we did with B&W film -- and we did not have those filters;
3) This is only a single comparison image and we'll all want to see many before we draw final or even meaningful conclusions;
4) This comparison is with the mono back and UV-IR cut filter in place, rendering an essentially visible spectrum mono image to compare to the visible color image;
5) The light was variable cloudy skies, so we used DIFFERENT camera bodies and lenses for the captures, making the captures at the same time to insure consistent lighting -- so there is a slight variation in taking position. The images were made with different lenses of the same spec (Mamiya 45 AF-D at f12).
6) Exposures are different due to the change in effective speed of the mono back (it gains about 1-1/3 stop or so over the Bayer back*), though f12 was used for both captures. F12 was chosen to supply the most DoF while at the same time limiting the effects of diffraction. Histograms are very close at the top and not clipped, inferring exposures were as close as possible for this comparison. (*The actual exposure difference is very dependent on lighting and which filter you have in place.)
7) This test was NOT scientifically controlled, I admit that, so please don't flame us for inadequate testing! the goal here is just to share some images and crops
That said, here we go.
First the full color image and the full Mono image for reference. The color image was processed to neutral WB, other settings were equal for both files C1, but not all of the same sliders are available to the mono file. My effort here was to make them both relatively neutral in all aspects:
Now here are some crops. First will be the Color image, second will be the color image converted to monochrome in CS in my attempt t to make it somewhat similar to the mono tonality for comparison purposes, and final is the mono crop. I pulled from the center since this is where we focused and the best part of the lenses:
Final caveat is these are compressed jpegs, so some artifacting will be present, my comments are made based on viewing the tiff on my studio system and NOT these jpegs. That said, what I would say to you is to look at the lines. I see much less "digital stepping" along the angled wires, ropes and poles from the mono file. I also see more tonal range in the darker tones -- and this makes sense since the bottom of the mono histo was spread wider when the tops were matched. Even so, look at the transition detail in the darker areas with highlights like where the tape is wrapped -- I see notably longer tonal gradation in the highlight. Next look at the detail in some of the larger ropes and lines themselves -- I can see thread flecks in the mono file that look like threads, while they artifact in the color file; similarly, the braids in the ropes appear more natural in the mono file while they again artifact in the color file. Finally, the midrange tonal transitions are smoother, longer and simply more natural in the mono file.
In short, I see the mono file rendering high-frequency detail better, more smoothly and more naturally, along with rendering edges in the coarser detail more smoothly and naturally, while at the same time rendering cleaner, smoother overall tonality. And I know many of you think the differences are subtle -- and you're right, at least maybe... But for the mono shooter wanting the best file possible, IMHO this is how they'll be looking and what they'll be looking for.
=> After upload PS: There are definitely some jpeg artifacts in the crops. Most notably are what look like sharpening halos along some of the edges on all images, these are not present in the tiffs --- but the difference in stepping is.
vieri
Well-known member
Re: Phase One monochrome back?
except... 41K to get one?? Is that what it will really cost? :wtf:
Thanks Doug, looking forward to seeing them
Indeed, this is why I am very much looking fwd to see what it can do. I was expecting something like that from Leica or Nikon actually, but I guess Phase will have to do for now
except... 41K to get one?? Is that what it will really cost? :wtf:
V
Vivek
Guest
Re: Phase One monochrome back?
The megavision backs can not be transported and used without a computer attached to them, right?
The phase back is a true camera back with a built in image storage and the like.
Yes! I would like that with an EXMOR-R sensor.
Hi Brian,
The megavision backs can not be transported and used without a computer attached to them, right?
The phase back is a true camera back with a built in image storage and the like.
Yes! I would like that with an EXMOR-R sensor.
Re: Phase One monochrome back?
I posted some examples in this thread:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11226
Perhaps I should merge them?
I posted some examples in this thread:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11226
Perhaps I should merge them?
T
tetsrfun
Guest
Re: Phase One monochrome back?
The price is very high just for that purpose though.
*******
According to the LL story on this back, it was a two year project and the sensors are hand picked to be the "best of the best" (I assume after the CIA and DOD get theirs).
"Phase One medium format backs are individually "mapped" for their defects – which all sensors have. A monochrome sensor is much less tolerant of these "bad" pixels and rows because the Bayer matrix has a way of "masking" them, thus allowing a higher tolerance for these defective photo sites."
This, plus low expected sales numbers would explain a $41k+ price tag.
The price is very high just for that purpose though.
*******
According to the LL story on this back, it was a two year project and the sensors are hand picked to be the "best of the best" (I assume after the CIA and DOD get theirs).
"Phase One medium format backs are individually "mapped" for their defects – which all sensors have. A monochrome sensor is much less tolerant of these "bad" pixels and rows because the Bayer matrix has a way of "masking" them, thus allowing a higher tolerance for these defective photo sites."
This, plus low expected sales numbers would explain a $41k+ price tag.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Merged
V
Vivek
Guest
Jack, Thank you very much for the sample and expanding on your thoughts on the achromatic back!