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Thread: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Phase One monochrome back?

    Any thoughts on this from the Phase One users here?

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...hromatic.shtml

    A few months ago I had asked about the Megavision monochrome back. This looks like a fine update to that concept.

    One question.....is it likely to satisfy the folks who feel that black and white from digital sensors doesn't fit the bill and still prefer the look of B&W film?

    Now if they could just get the price down to about $10k or so. :-)

    Gary

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    It is a very neat back, and the higher resolution might excite some, but the difference isn't that large in the end... The images are very smooth, and have a natural look at 100% that IMO is missing in standard Phase colour back results, but the ability to tweak the B&W result from juggling the various colours is lost, and so paradoxically the colour backs might be better for B&W. I suppose the really interesting feature then is the ability to play with IR and UV. The price is very high just for that purpose though. My guess is that in the end, a few well-heeled amateurs and perhaps a couple of pros looking for something different will buy one, but that the vast bulk of sales will come from scientific users.
    Carsten - Website

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    What could have been REALY nice is if you shoot through R,G and B filters like on the old Leaf Volare, giving you pure 39MP in each channel...then put the 3 layers together somehow.
    This can put any current multi-shot solution in the deep shade...in terms of both resolution and colour depth...

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    This might be possible Yaya, perhaps by using the additif color filters used for color printing in the seventies. Or symply the color weel that the cantare and volare used to use. One then need software to arrange those 3 images to an images that can be used......

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    BTW: in the third part of the article on LuLa you'll see the interface of C1 V5

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    BTW: in the third part of the article on LuLa you'll see the interface of C1 V5
    good eye

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    BTW: in the third part of the article on LuLa you'll see the interface of C1 V5

    Do I really have too
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Do I really have too
    some really strong improvements/new tools are incorporated. you'll be pleased.

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    We're a dealer for this new back. I should be getting some hands-on time in the next few weeks and will report back.

    However, the claims (which we will be testing) is for significantly better resolution (manifested most greatly when uprezing), better tonal smoothness, a bit better dynamic range, and the ability to use IR and UV.

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    some really strong improvements/new tools are incorporated. you'll be pleased.
    I know. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Remember that a high quality 4x5 infrared film is now about $2/shot to purchase, $10/shot to process and $100 for a mid quality drum scan. With IR film it's VERY hard to meter perfectly, so you need to bracket any important shot. So assuming you shoot 5 scenes (x3 for bracketing) each time you go out and you go out twice a week and expect two keepers per shoot you can expect to spend around $40,000 on film/processing/scanning in ONE YEAR.

    Now OF COURSE, if you're going to process the film yourself and maintain a fully functional darkroom for printing then that's way less expensive. However, not every photographer interested in very high quality IR capture will want to maintain a full darkroom in which to use it.

    And that's just talking about IR; there is also a world of UV, and normal Black and White to discover (or rediscover as most of us have shot traditional b+w at some point in the past).

    There is a also a good chance that if we are pleased by our testing that we will have one available for rental (probably $500/day or $2000/week - accommodations made for days of travel). I see this being something you would rent for a "once in a lifetime" trip especially if you already own a digital back and the bodies/lenses to use it with.

    And FWIW I've shot IR with a Canon A620, Olympus E-10 (not modified), Canon 1Ds (not modified), Canon 20D IR-mod, Canon 5D IR mod, and a P45+ IR and nothing came even close to the P45+ IR. If this back delivers what it says then it will be *several* steps beyond a P45+ IR because in IR exposure the 45+ IR mostly picks up data on the red channel, so this achromatic back will have 4 times as much information.

    We'll see when I do the testing.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    While I like the concept Im nevertheless on the fence and will wait for Dougs testing report. Ive used the P45+ IR lens filter with great results before having the 1DsII modified and was very pleased with the results. Im also extremely pleased with the results from the 1DsII and can only figure a fully modified digital back would be even better. The price is the only real killer.

    Doug are there plans for doing this for either the P20 series?
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post
    Doug are there plans for doing this for either the P20 series?
    No other achromatic backs are expected.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    I was wondering how much appeal this will have for folks who are happy with digital color, but have not been happy with digital color to B&W conversions and so they still shoot B&W film.

    Personally, I've been happy with digital color to B&W conversion, so I don't really see an overwhelming need to shoot B&W film (although I still do, just for the fun of it). So the main appeal for me here would be the higher resolution results, if that proves to be the case. For example, the difference between the black spots on the red tomatoes in the LL review was really striking and frankly, I was surprised there was such a difference between the Achromatic+ back and the color back on that part of the image.

    Gary

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I was wondering how much appeal this will have for folks who are happy with digital color, but have not been happy with digital color to B&W conversions and so they still shoot B&W film.

    ...

    Gary
    I am one of those who still shoots (a lot) of BW film on every job & for personal use. I simply find the texture & gradation of film better than digital BW, and I have been waiting for a long time for a BW digital camera - I hoped Leica would do something of that sort, and when my Phase rep here told me about it I though it was cool but probably would cost too much for me to make it a viable alternative to keep using film - which apparently is the case, though I appreciate and understand the special scientific applications it might have and the appeal it might have in such fields at any price. Plus, I'd love to see some more samples, and how the apparent technical problems with focus etc have been solved. however, it is very good IMHO that BW sensors start to be around, and I commend Phase for that!
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    Talking P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    Capture Integration was able to obtain a demo version of this back for us to try in Oregon, so I will have some files to share. Dave Gallagher and Doug Peterson from CI did significant testing with this back against both the regular P45+ and a P65+, and will be posting their results and impressions too.

    I need some time with the files to understand how they behave and how to extract the most from them, so hope to be getting some of the images up and sharing my initial impressions next week, after I've had a chance to work with them on my studio machine.

    Understand that since this back is full spectrum monochrome, there is no Bayer filter and by using different filtration you can capture high UV only, visible only, IR only (various bands) and broad spectrum visible + IR. One could also make a true-color per-pixel image stack by taking 3 images, one each with a Red, Green and Blue filter and then merging them in CS. In short, the options and prospects for this back are endless and of course I barely scratched the surface.

    With that all said and Dave and Doug's results notwithstanding, I will simply say this back definitely shows promise for those wanting to do true monochrome captures. My first-glance feeling is the detail available is comparable to what 8x10 negative film generated with the best lenses and techniques, plus DR is broad enough that one should easily be able to duplicate a response curve that closely parallels their favorite B&W emulsion --- or moreover, with experimentation one will be able to create their own super-recipe B&W response curve/profile.

    IMO Sir Ansel would have been all over this . Stay tuned for more to come, and feel free to ask questions -- just understand I may not have many answers!
    Jack
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    Re: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    Reminded me very much of looking at Tech Pan from my film days. Truly outstanding detail. I agree Ansel would have been first in line to get one.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member routlaw's Avatar
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    Re: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post

    Understand that since this back is full spectrum monochrome, there is no Bayer filter and by using different filtration you can capture high UV only, visible only, IR only (various bands) and broad spectrum visible + IR. One could also make a true-color per-pixel image stack by taking 3 images, one each with a Red, Green and Blue filter and then merging them in CS. In short, the options and prospects for this back are endless and of course I barely scratched the surface.
    Jack correct me if I am wrong but back in the mid to late 90's both Megavision and I think Sinar also produced a similar setup with a 3 shot mode RGB filter color wheel type of deal. I remember seeing the files/prints from those and they were impressive indeed even back then. Sounds like P1 might have re-created a winner here.

    Rob

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    Re: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    I think this is also essentially what comes out of a 4-shot back, although it doesn't use filters, but moves the sensor so all (final) pixels see all colours. I suppose you lose a row of pixels around the edge.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    I saw this back at Photo Expo in NYC this week. I'm sure the image quality is great but why shoot b&w. Isn't there more flexibility with shooting color? I guess the no bayer filter thing prevents some issues. IR photography is certainly a good reason though. Whats the price?

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    Re: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    Whats the price?
    *******
    $41,990 USD.

    Steve

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    Re: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    Anxiously waiting for your thoughts, impressions and images from this back. Kudos to Phase One for developing it. If it even comes close to the quality of a well scanned 8x10 negative...that's impressive.

    I only wish it was something mere mortals could afford....maybe someday.

    Gary

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Any thoughts on this from the Phase One users here?

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...hromatic.shtml

    A few months ago I had asked about the Megavision monochrome back. This looks like a fine update to that concept.

    One question.....is it likely to satisfy the folks who feel that black and white from digital sensors doesn't fit the bill and still prefer the look of B&W film?

    Now if they could just get the price down to about $10k or so. :-)

    Gary
    Since your post a few months ago Megavision has updated their website, and they are actively selling a line of monochrome backs: http://www.mega-vision.com/e6.html

    Megavision is also now marketing an interesting multispectral system for UV-VIS-IR analysis of ancient documents and artwork:http://www.mega-vision.com/cultural_heritage.html

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    I simply find the texture & gradation of film better than digital BW [...] Plus, I'd love to see some more samples.
    Samples, varied and real-life, are coming.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    I am one of those who still shoots (a lot) of BW film on every job & for personal use. I simply find the texture & gradation of film better than digital BW, and I have been waiting for a long time for a BW digital camera - I hoped Leica would do something of that sort, and when my Phase rep here told me about it I though it was cool but probably would cost too much for me to make it a viable alternative to keep using film - which apparently is the case, though I appreciate and understand the special scientific applications it might have and the appeal it might have in such fields at any price. Plus, I'd love to see some more samples, and how the apparent technical problems with focus etc have been solved. however, it is very good IMHO that BW sensors start to be around, and I commend Phase for that!
    I looked at most of the images shot and it is a very exciting back. Certainly has the advantage over a bayer layer back for B&W. Plus you have options on the look you are after.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    I commend Phase for doing this. MF digital is out of my reach, but I have long wanted a dedicated B&W digital camera. If only one of the 35mm DSLR makers would embrace this concept! I'd love to see a B&W Sony A900.

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    Re: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    Here are some initial comparison images Doug and I took together for you to look at.

    Caveats:

    1) This is me working the files with essentially ZERO refinement time learning processing for the mono files and I am absolutely certain more can be gleaned from them, so do not take this as the end-all comparison -- think of it more as my introduction;

    2) Because it's a mono back, you need to use color filters over the lens to render colors as you want them to appear tonally, just as we did with B&W film -- and we did not have those filters;

    3) This is only a single comparison image and we'll all want to see many before we draw final or even meaningful conclusions;

    4) This comparison is with the mono back and UV-IR cut filter in place, rendering an essentially visible spectrum mono image to compare to the visible color image;

    5) The light was variable cloudy skies, so we used DIFFERENT camera bodies and lenses for the captures, making the captures at the same time to insure consistent lighting -- so there is a slight variation in taking position. The images were made with different lenses of the same spec (Mamiya 45 AF-D at f12).

    6) Exposures are different due to the change in effective speed of the mono back (it gains about 1-1/3 stop or so over the Bayer back*), though f12 was used for both captures. F12 was chosen to supply the most DoF while at the same time limiting the effects of diffraction. Histograms are very close at the top and not clipped, inferring exposures were as close as possible for this comparison. (*The actual exposure difference is very dependent on lighting and which filter you have in place.)

    7) This test was NOT scientifically controlled, I admit that, so please don't flame us for inadequate testing! the goal here is just to share some images and crops

    That said, here we go.

    First the full color image and the full Mono image for reference. The color image was processed to neutral WB, other settings were equal for both files C1, but not all of the same sliders are available to the mono file. My effort here was to make them both relatively neutral in all aspects:





    Now here are some crops. First will be the Color image, second will be the color image converted to monochrome in CS in my attempt t to make it somewhat similar to the mono tonality for comparison purposes, and final is the mono crop. I pulled from the center since this is where we focused and the best part of the lenses:





    Final caveat is these are compressed jpegs, so some artifacting will be present, my comments are made based on viewing the tiff on my studio system and NOT these jpegs. That said, what I would say to you is to look at the lines. I see much less "digital stepping" along the angled wires, ropes and poles from the mono file. I also see more tonal range in the darker tones -- and this makes sense since the bottom of the mono histo was spread wider when the tops were matched. Even so, look at the transition detail in the darker areas with highlights like where the tape is wrapped -- I see notably longer tonal gradation in the highlight. Next look at the detail in some of the larger ropes and lines themselves -- I can see thread flecks in the mono file that look like threads, while they artifact in the color file; similarly, the braids in the ropes appear more natural in the mono file while they again artifact in the color file. Finally, the midrange tonal transitions are smoother, longer and simply more natural in the mono file.

    In short, I see the mono file rendering high-frequency detail better, more smoothly and more naturally, along with rendering edges in the coarser detail more smoothly and naturally, while at the same time rendering cleaner, smoother overall tonality. And I know many of you think the differences are subtle -- and you're right, at least maybe... But for the mono shooter wanting the best file possible, IMHO this is how they'll be looking and what they'll be looking for.

    => After upload PS: There are definitely some jpeg artifacts in the crops. Most notably are what look like sharpening halos along some of the edges on all images, these are not present in the tiffs --- but the difference in stepping is.
    Jack
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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Samples, varied and real-life, are coming.

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    Thanks Doug, looking forward to seeing them

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I looked at most of the images shot and it is a very exciting back. Certainly has the advantage over a bayer layer back for B&W. Plus you have options on the look you are after.
    Indeed, this is why I am very much looking fwd to see what it can do. I was expecting something like that from Leica or Nikon actually, but I guess Phase will have to do for now except... 41K to get one?? Is that what it will really cost?
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Quote Originally Posted by brianc1959 View Post
    Since your post a few months ago Megavision has updated their website, and they are actively selling a line of monochrome backs: http://www.mega-vision.com/e6.html

    Megavision is also now marketing an interesting multispectral system for UV-VIS-IR analysis of ancient documents and artwork:http://www.mega-vision.com/cultural_heritage.html
    Hi Brian,

    The megavision backs can not be transported and used without a computer attached to them, right?

    The phase back is a true camera back with a built in image storage and the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfotog View Post
    I commend Phase for doing this. MF digital is out of my reach, but I have long wanted a dedicated B&W digital camera. If only one of the 35mm DSLR makers would embrace this concept! I'd love to see a B&W Sony A900.

    Yes! I would like that with an EXMOR-R sensor.

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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    I posted some examples in this thread:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11226

    Perhaps I should merge them?
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    Hi Jack,

    Yes, I think it would be good to merge these two threads.

    Gary

  32. #32
    tetsrfun
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    Re: Phase One monochrome back?

    The price is very high just for that purpose though.
    *******
    According to the LL story on this back, it was a two year project and the sensors are hand picked to be the "best of the best" (I assume after the CIA and DOD get theirs).
    "Phase One medium format backs are individually "mapped" for their defects – which all sensors have. A monochrome sensor is much less tolerant of these "bad" pixels and rows because the Bayer matrix has a way of "masking" them, thus allowing a higher tolerance for these defective photo sites."

    This, plus low expected sales numbers would explain a $41k+ price tag.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    Merged
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    Re: P45+ Full Spectrum Monochrome back

    Jack, Thank you very much for the sample and expanding on your thoughts on the achromatic back!

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