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Thread: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

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    Senior Member PSon's Avatar
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    Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    I am considering an upgrade to either the Phase One P65+ or the Hasselblad H4D 60. Besides the differences between these two cameras I still own too many Hasselblad V lens. The leaf shutter lens would work very well on the H4D camera but the 200 series lens will only work with the focal plane shutter camera. If these two backs are on the table and you get to pick one which one would you take?

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Well first of all, nobody can actually tell you, because nearly nobody has tried the H60, yet. So I would say that question is a waste of time. (At the moment)

    I can comment on the beginning, when I choose between the P45 and H39, I tried both cameras and really preferred the Phase camera a lot. Did not like the Hassi feeling. In addition I don't need Leaf shutter lenses, but 1/2000 or even 1/4000 can become handy "sometimes".

    In the End there is only one real option. Once the H4D 60 ships, contact your dealer and try BOTH Systems, with the lenses you would like as well. That is the ONLY thing that really matters.

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Assuming chips deliver same IQ - then you have to think about camera functionality. This is where Hasselblad has been very tricky and smart - with focus lock feature...for me the only reason to think about upgrading..

    I have nearly all V lenses now - but prefer to use them on 500 series body so that doesnt matter to me. You can use your Sinar back on 500 series body if you wish to use V lenses - you already know CF adaptor works very well on H series bodies - you already know software from Hasselblad recognises all V series lenses and you get DAC corrections (that work) automatically - but you dont really care about this feature...I dont ..

    So you Son are going to tell me that you would buy a P65+ - no doubt a great back - but then use it on a Mamiya 645 body - with its viewfinder?..really? hahahah too funny - I dont believe you -

    still. maybe tempting to ignore third rate viewfinder and buy into Mamiya D series lenses and maybe even their leaf lenses when they come out..if you dont already have H series lenses - then why not?

    only thing that really bugged me about PhaMamiya body was small grip/silly dual battery system, shocking I mean really shocking shutter lag and finally HAVE to send body in to dealer to get any firmware upgrade..

    Dont get me wrong Phase One backs ( I had the P45+ ) are awesome - camera body ( not lenses btw) is what turned me off..maybe with new body all problems solved??

    QED.

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    A few weeks ago I visited a dealer and hadled a Mamiya with P65+. I was impressed how small that digital back is. Cannot comment about its image quality

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    My only additional comment is to consider total workflow, including raw conversion. IMO the taking is only half (actually less than half for me, but respect others opinions vary) of the total image-making equation...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member PSon's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Thanks for all the inputs especially to Peter point about the lock focus which is great for certain applications and for me people photography stands out here. If I use the CF lens adapter to the H4D camera will the lock focus mechanism work for the V system lens? Also will Hasselblad make the focal plane shutter on the newer camera so that the 200 series lens can also be utilized?

    Jack also have a great point regarding to work flow which will save time and efforts. For landscape the lock in focus feature is not as important so the Phase One back would be fine. I believe that either ways the lens to put on these two backs are very critical so the Hasselblad V system is also a choice for the Phase One back since the image circle is large enough to handle the 645 full frame sensor. Also my Alpa, Cambo, Sinar and Rollei X-Act2 systems are already set for the V-mount back as well.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    Last edited by PSon; 10th November 2009 at 07:26.

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Son
    Won't you be using with your Contax?
    The Hassey V works and the viewfinders are great (esp with Maxwell brightening)

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    As I am in a similar situation for decision (BTW for half a year now, but I had the luxury to have no pressure) I know most of the advantages and disadvantages of both systems - Phamiya and Hasselblad.

    I cannot comment on the H60 back as I never used it because it is not available, but I would assume it delivers comparable results to the P65+. So this should not be the point which forces any decision.

    If it comes to the system then Phase seems to be more versatile if you need both leaf and focal plane shutter, but totally the other way round if you consider list of available lenses and camera functionality. And I must agree with what was said already here, the H cameras for me handle better than the Phase cameras and the viewfinder is far superior - again my personal view.

    SW and post processing. This was for me long time a clear match ball for Phase, as I am C1 user and like this SW. Now in the end of the day I gave up the dream of using only 1 post processing tool, I am currently using several, C1 Pro, Flexcolor (for scanner), Bridge and PS CS4, and maybe some other 1 or 2 packages or at least plug ins and this constantly changes. So actually it does not matter any more to use one additional SW which is Phocus, for the Hasselblad backs. I can easily live with a workflow doing a store and first processing in Phocus and then export into TIFF or DNG and do the further work in whatever I feel is appropriate. I might even go back to LR as this seems to become the tool of choice for M9 files (although I like the C1 results for the M9 better than the LR results). And man, if Apple decides to bring the killer version of Aperture, no problem any longer, I can live with that too and switch within a day (or a few days), as my photos are stored in such a versatile way, that I can find everything without being bound to a specific SW packages.

    So short answer after long explanation - SW was so far my struggling point, this is gone, so I am free to decide again from the camera/lens perspective. And guess what, Hasselblad is here the winner for me. And this also takes into account availability, quality, knowledge, effectiveness and friendlyness of support and of course pricing. And especially if it comes to prices then Hasselblad is another winner!

    My 5c

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    "If I use the CF lens adapter to the H4D camera will the lock focus mechanism work for the V system lens?"

    I don't think so. My understanding of the new focus lock is that when you lock focus and then recompose, the camera measures the angular change of the camera movement to recompose, and then adjusts the focus to compensate - this, I think, would require changing the focus on the lens, i.e. requires an autofocus lens, and the V systems lenses are all manual focus.

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    "If I use the CF lens adapter to the H4D camera will the lock focus mechanism work for the V system lens?"

    I don't think so. My understanding of the new focus lock is that when you lock focus and then recompose, the camera measures the angular change of the camera movement to recompose, and then adjusts the focus to compensate - this, I think, would require changing the focus on the lens, i.e. requires an autofocus lens, and the V systems lenses are all manual focus.

    Correct It needs AF lenses. Oh and it works very well, I know, I've used it.
    Nick-T

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    I think if I were a landscape shooter I select the Leaf pano 54 meg back and put it on which ever camera floats your boat (at the very least, I'd immediately try it on a Hasselblad 903 SW)


    For people and studio, or both ... I'd go the H4D/60 for the focus recompose innovation ... that will especially be a huge help when shooting the 100/2.2 wide open. Of course you'd be able to use the amazing 40IF CFE on the H4D also.


    I stopped worrying about trying to use the FE lenses on everything ... it makes it all to complex with compromises happening somewhere IMO. I just shoot film with the 203FE and FE lenses the way it was made to work.


    If it was a focal plane camera that was important, I'd use a P65+ on a Contax 645 just to get to that 120 macro and 350/4 APO ... which no one has equalled to this day IMHO (well the Zeiss 350 SA and 300 TTP are better, but then I'd have to sell my house). Then all the 200 series FE lenses would also work. The Phase Backs look like they were made just for the Contax 645 camera.

    -Marc

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    I'd look at what is available, tried, tested and optimised...

    You can ask Phase how challenging it was to change from Kodak to Dalsa, then you can ask Hasselblad the same question...

    If you can wait, wait. If you need/ want to buy, buy...

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    I gave up long time ago to be able to use old lenses on new bodies and backs etc. This is all too much trouble!

    If I buy such a system I try to get one which is really consistent. There are 3 vendors out there offering or at least promising such a system: Hasselblad H, Phase (Mamiya) and Leica S.

    Which one is the best in the end of the day everybody has to decide independently on their needs.

    Leica is getting very promising for me though

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Hi Son,

    Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your dilemma. Like me, I know you love your Zeiss FE glass. So, my first question is whether or not you really need 60MP at this point in time.

    If not, then the Sinar M is currently the best camera for those of us who like the Zeiss glass. A little known fact of the Sinar M camera is that it can flash sync much higher than advertised. (Sinar is not exactly the best at marketing.) Their camera description only mentions their X sync ability, which is limited to 1/100. However, the camera also has a M sync port that is synced with the actual shutter opening. I have used the Zeiss FE 110 lens with flash at 1/1000. It is the only focal plane camera in the world that can achieve these high flash sync speeds. Not even the Hasselblad 203FE or 205FCC could do this. And, there is rumor that Sinar is making a mount for Hasselblad digital backs, like they currently do for their Artech camera. In this case, the P65+ is the better choice of backs to get you to 60MP.

    The other possibility is to go with Hasselblad H4D and hope for a future H camera (H5D ?), which might include a focal plane shutter inside. It is not like Hasselblad has not been hearing this request from customers for some time now, so I would expect this could happen in the near future. If Hasselblad does go this route, I hope they supply a M sync port like Sinar does to give the higher sync ability ( ... hint to Hasselblad).

    David

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Hi Son,

    The other possibility is to go with Hasselblad H4D and hope for a future H camera (H5D ?), which might include a focal plane shutter inside. It is not like Hasselblad has not been hearing this request from customers for some time now, so I would expect this could happen in the near future. If Hasselblad does go this route, I hope they supply a M sync port like Sinar does to give the higher sync ability ( ... hint to Hasselblad).

    David

    Certainly for flexibility of both focal and leaf shutter, the Phase One DF camera should be a strong consideration, as the camera can work with a large lineup of shutter-less lenses on account of it's internal focal plane shutter, but also the upcoming leaf shutter lenses (50mm, 80mm, 110mm initially) will sync at 1/1600 with the P40+ and P65+.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Certainly for flexibility of both focal and leaf shutter, the Phase One DF camera should be a strong consideration, as the camera can work with a large lineup of shutter-less lenses on account of it's internal focal plane shutter, but also the upcoming leaf shutter lenses (50mm, 80mm, 110mm initially) will sync at 1/1600 with the P40+ and P65+.


    Steve Hendrix
    Yes, of course, the Phase One Camera is also an excellent general consideration. I just happen to be familiar with Son's shooting, and he often needs a waist level finder for his macro and repro work, in addition to being able to use his Zeiss FE lenses with high speed flash sync.

    BTW, the M sync port on the Sinar M camera also syncs higher (up to 1/1600 and even 1/2000 with a little underexposure that can be adjusted in raw conversion). It works so well that I find that I don't have a need for leaf shutter lenses anymore.

    David

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Yes, of course, the Phase One Camera is also an excellent general consideration. I just happen to be familiar with Son's shooting, and he often needs a waist level finder for his macro and repro work, in addition to being able to use his Zeiss FE lenses with high speed flash sync.

    BTW, the M sync port on the Sinar M camera also syncs higher (up to 1/1600 and even 1/2000 with a little underexposure that can be adjusted in raw conversion). It works so well that I find that I don't have a need for leaf shutter lenses anymore.

    David

    David:

    Does the Sinar M produce high flash sync also with the FE lenses? That would be interesting.

    While it's not a waist level finder, there is an angle finder for the DF that works well if having your eye to the finder isn't an issue (obviously would be if shooting people, for example, sort of defeats the purpose).


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    David:

    Does the Sinar M produce high flash sync also with the FE lenses? That would be interesting.
    Steve Hendrix
    Yes, the Sinar M will provide this higher flash sync with all Hasselblad F/FE lenses. As I mentioned above, I like to use the FE 110/2 and typically shoot at 1/500 but sometimes 1/1000 flash sync using the M sync port. I know it will go higher, because I tried it for kicks, but I don't need to go higher.

    Of course, this also works for all of the other Hasselblad CF/CFi/CFE lenses, but using the focal plane shutter of the M camera to get higher flash sync (sounds really weird, right?). And, of course, it also works with their Sinaron AF lenses.

    Steve, I think Phase has a real opportunity here with enabling the M camera with your backs. I know it might compete a little with the Phase One camera itself, but I would prefer to think of it as extending your product offerings and ultimately sell more backs. I can tell you that if you offered me a P65+ today for the M camera, the cash would be in your hand first thing Monday morning. And, I think a lot of other people would also like to have this camera+back combination.

    David

  19. #19
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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    I am considering an upgrade to either the Phase One P65+ or the Hasselblad H4D 60. Besides the differences between these two cameras I still own too many Hasselblad V lens. The leaf shutter lens would work very well on the H4D camera but the 200 series lens will only work with the focal plane shutter camera. If these two backs are on the table and you get to pick one which one would you take?
    ********
    Why not get the P65+ with the "V" mount for your 200 series...that would solve your immediate problem re: lenses. If copying/macro are important seems like a 200 series body is more versatile compared to "H" or Phase body.

    Steve

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Dear David,

    Thank you for the information on the sync X port of the Sinar-M camera.
    It is the most intriguing piece of Sinar Knowledge I saw on the internet. It was so interesting that I drove to the studio today to check the high speed sync on my M camera. I tried the X and got half blacked files. I failed...
    David, am I right that there is some trick or secret involved, or something else should be done with the M -camera? Or my M does not work properly?

    Thank you, it is so nice to see you again on the Forum.
    Yevgeny

    It
    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Hi Son,


    If not, then the Sinar M is currently the best camera for those of us who like the Zeiss glass. A little known fact of the Sinar M camera is that it can flash sync much higher than advertised. (Sinar is not exactly the best at marketing.) Their camera description only mentions their X sync ability, which is limited to 1/100. However, the camera also has a M sync port that is synced with the actual shutter opening. I have used the Zeiss FE 110 lens with flash at 1/1000. It is the only focal plane camera in the world that can achieve these high flash sync speeds. Not even the Hasselblad 203FE or 205FCC could do this. And, there is rumor that Sinar is making a mount for Hasselblad digital backs, like they currently do for their Artech camera. In this case, the P65+ is the better choice of backs to get you to 60MP.


    David

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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Quote Originally Posted by Yevgeny NP View Post
    Dear David,

    Thank you for the information on the sync X port of the Sinar-M camera.
    It is the most intriguing piece of Sinar Knowledge I saw on the internet. It was so interesting that I drove to the studio today to check the high speed sync on my M camera. I tried the X and got half blacked files. I failed...
    David, am I right that there is some trick or secret involved, or something else should be done with the M -camera? Or my M does not work properly?

    Thank you, it is so nice to see you again on the Forum.
    Yevgeny

    It
    Hi Yevgeny,

    You did not use the right port.

    Looking at the front of the Sinar M body, the X sync port is to the right of the lens mount. This is the port you should use for slow shutter speeds of 1/100 or slower.

    Now, look to the left side of the lens mount. You will see another port that looks exactly like the X sync port. However, it is a different port called the M sync port. This is the port you should use for high speed flash. Simply plug your PC sync cable into this port. You then setup your flash in manual mode. I use a Metz 54MZ, and use the Manual mode with 1/1 full power and by setting only ISO, aperture and focal length to get the approximate distance.

    I think once you plug your flash into the correct sync port, you will be fine. Then, just play with your flash until you understand how it works.

    Have fun!

    David

  22. #22
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    Re: Phase One P65+ or Hasselblad H4D 60

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    My understanding of the new focus lock is that when you lock focus and then recompose, the camera measures the angular change of the camera movement to recompose, and then adjusts the focus to compensate - this, I think, would require changing the focus on the lens, i.e. requires an autofocus lens, and the V systems lenses are all manual focus.
    Yes. Hasselblad refers to this as 'focus velocity'. It uses the distance focused to estimate your angular displacement, and adjusts accordingly by refocusing the lens. IOW, if the lens is focused close to infinity, the lens may only be refocused a smidge, or perhaps none at all. If the lens is focused at something a mere 6 feet away, it will refocus the lens a lot. There may be limitations or ranges it is designed to work within. I haven't read the whole thing yet.

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