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Thread: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

  1. #51
    ddk
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    The situation is clear now, thanks for the explanation David!

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    David, no worries about me taking your question the wrong way. Let me try to put it in perspective. The studio event was hosted by David as a demo for the S2 not as a comparative test shoot for different systems. Don't know the exact number of folks who showed up but it was over 20 participants, David and his wife, Chris Snipes and Roland Wolff from Leica, and about four models but only the one camera. In short, a lot of people. Everybody wanted a chance to shoot each model and, in many cases, with both the lenses that were available. As you can imagine, this took hours to complete. At the end of the shooting I told David that I wanted to do a head to head comparison of the S2 and my Sinar kit for the kind of stuff that I frequently shoot. By that time the models were exhausted and had left the studio. As long as we were setting up for my requested test we decided to add the Phase and Hasselblad kits. All the shooting was done tethered into LR 3 beta except for my files which needed to be run through the Sinar eXposure software which David F (who uses a PC) didn't have. Consequently, all the files shot reside on David F's laptop in folders identifying the shooter. David will be providing those images to each of the participants but hasn't had a chance to do so yet. I've got plenty of images that I shot with my Sinar kit but I didn't think anybody was much interested in them (if someone is, they are welcome to drop me a pm and I'll provide the DNG's gladly). Bottom line is that there are plenty of great images of good looking models taken with the S2 (including many shot by my good friend and excellent photographer Andre Rowe the day before) but nothing besides the posted shot that shows comparative results from the different systems.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    We need two more David's to jump in on this thread

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yes, the cross-over influences are indeed confusing ... I was provided a S2 to use by Chris Snipes, Sales Manager Professional Market of Dale Labs ... Chris is also President of Image Productions, a Phase One reseller.

    I DO NOT take comparative testing seriously when set up or performed by ANY representative of ANY company no matter how the business threads may connect them.
    Thanks for explaining this Marc, I was confused by your original post too. I for one had no idea there was any connection or partnering between Chris Snipes of Image Productions and David Farkas of Dale Labs --- obviously I missed the memo...

    As for any given tester's veracity, I base my conclusions on my own tests and those of folks I trust; a trust that has been earned regardless of whether they are resellers or not...
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  4. #54
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    steve,
    just my private testing. in particular i am referring to 28mm, 120mm and 210mm. a while ago i did tests with a P45 on an H1 and (another P45) on an AFD II.
    peter

    Thanks Peter.

    It's possible an HC 28mm may be slightly more resistant to edge smearing than the P1 28mm on an AFDII.. In other respects, I find them equivalent. Perhaps a P1 28mm with the P1 lens corrections would yield a different result for you from what you saw on the AFDII.

    The 120 result frankly surprises me as Doug Peterson has done some tests comparing the HC 120 and the P1 D 120 and found them very very close until you stop down, at which point his test showed the P1 D 120 moving ahead.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/

    The Mamiya 210 - I don't have any real experience with but since it is not an updated "digital" lens, so I wouldn't be surprised if a modern HC lens showed superior sharpness.

    Lens tests (well, any test) are really difficult, but - no promises - I intend to try and spend some time producing some reliable comparison tests at some point. The great thing about lens tests is that the results often surprise.


    Thanks,
    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Thanks Peter.

    It's possible an HC 28mm may be slightly more resistant to edge smearing than the P1 28mm on an AFDII.. In other respects, I find them equivalent. Perhaps a P1 28mm with the P1 lens corrections would yield a different result for you from what you saw on the AFDII.

    The 120 result frankly surprises me as Doug Peterson has done some tests comparing the HC 120 and the P1 D 120 and found them very very close until you stop down, at which point his test showed the P1 D 120 moving ahead.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/

    The Mamiya 210 - I don't have any real experience with but since it is not an updated "digital" lens, so I wouldn't be surprised if a modern HC lens showed superior sharpness.

    Lens tests (well, any test) are really difficult, but - no promises - I intend to try and spend some time producing some reliable comparison tests at some point. The great thing about lens tests is that the results often surprise.


    Thanks,
    Steve Hendrix
    I must say that I actually do not give anything on these test shoots. Testing diffraction - well how did one select the lenses? I am pretty sure that you could find better or worse samples from Hasselblad and Phase as well. Sorry to say but I am pretty sure this is just sample variation, not a characteristic of the lens itself.

    I want to state here, I am NOT a Hasselblad fan, so this is NOT the reason I jump in here. But I think in order to be able to really tell something about a lens you would have to test a whole bunch of same lenses of vendor A against the same number of same lenses of vendor B - would assume in terms of statistical relevance at least 10 or so.

    Everything else could be just spreading of the manufacturing results you test here.

    Only vendor I would somehow trust is Leica with their S System, as they obviously have a much tighter control mechanism in place.

    Knowing I put oil into the fire, but lets keep the discussions somehow lively

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I must say that I actually do not give anything on these test shoots. Testing diffraction - well how did one select the lenses? I am pretty sure that you could find better or worse samples from Hasselblad and Phase as well. Sorry to say but I am pretty sure this is just sample variation, not a characteristic of the lens itself.

    I want to state here, I am NOT a Hasselblad fan, so this is NOT the reason I jump in here. But I think in order to be able to really tell something about a lens you would have to test a whole bunch of same lenses of vendor A against the same number of same lenses of vendor B - would assume in terms of statistical relevance at least 10 or so.

    Everything else could be just spreading of the manufacturing results you test here.

    Only vendor I would somehow trust is Leica with their S System, as they obviously have a much tighter control mechanism in place.

    Knowing I put oil into the fire, but lets keep the discussions somehow lively

    Peter:

    Actually you make important points concerning sample variaion (as I also mentioned). It makes it difficult to do absolutely apples to apples tests. I do have the sense that medium format does have tighter control than say, Canon, but it doesn't mean there cannot be slight variations in quality.

    That said, I have to mention that I have also tested HC 80mm and 35mm against P1 D 80mm and 28mm (that was a compromise, couldn't test the HC 28, since it wouldn't work on our P45+/H2 setup, and felt it not fair to stick the 35mm Mamiya in there).

    Not meaning to imply anything definitive, but in those tests, I also found that the Phase One lenses were sharper after stopping down. So in at least 2 different testing sessions, we found sharper results stopped down when comparing Phase One D lenses to HC. It led me to the thought that the HC lenses are more optimized for larger apertures, while the P1 D lenses more optimized for smaller apertures. This could very well be the case, as anyone who read the excellent Hasselblad HC vs V lens article in the Hasselblad Victor magazine also read about conscious design decisions with regard to optimization of lenses.

    And Peter, please by all means, do stir up - don't let this place get too calm. You may have to try harder though.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Thanks Peter.

    It's possible an HC 28mm may be slightly more resistant to edge smearing than the P1 28mm on an AFDII.. In other respects, I find them equivalent. Perhaps a P1 28mm with the P1 lens corrections would yield a different result for you from what you saw on the AFDII.

    The 120 result frankly surprises me as Doug Peterson has done some tests comparing the HC 120 and the P1 D 120 and found them very very close until you stop down, at which point his test showed the P1 D 120 moving ahead.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/

    The Mamiya 210 - I don't have any real experience with but since it is not an updated "digital" lens, so I wouldn't be surprised if a modern HC lens showed superior sharpness.

    Lens tests (well, any test) are really difficult, but - no promises - I intend to try and spend some time producing some reliable comparison tests at some point. The great thing about lens tests is that the results often surprise.


    Thanks,
    Steve Hendrix
    steve,
    just to confirm what you are saying: i found the lens comparisms between HC(D) and mamiya gave close results, where other issues (software) could blend in. i did find the hassies more 'solid' than their phase counterparts, but also heavier of course. i personally can do without a leaf shutter and would like <1/800 sec exposure time. so after all.....
    in any case both camera systems give WONDERFUL results, the choice between them is highly personal.
    however, here is the usual complaint again: both systems feel like dinosaurs compared to my D3(x), as far as handling, AF, lack of live-view etc is concerned.i have to give credit to leica that they wanted to get out of this MF black hole with their S2, unfortunately they forgot that handling is not everything but that performance is also very important. so they designed a D3x style camera with a quasi MF sensor, a poor MF AF system, no live view, no modularity, bad high iso.....
    beautiful body but the usual MF stuff inside, just lower MPX than i like.
    peter

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Only vendor I would somehow trust is Leica with their S System, as they obviously have a much tighter control mechanism in place.
    But that was not so much there history though Peter let's remember the M8. Now we are somewhat guessing here as well. Who really knows how good or bad Phase/Mamiya or the Hassy factories are and there control mechanisms.
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Only vendor I would somehow trust is Leica with their S System, as they obviously have a much tighter control mechanism in place.
    But that was not so much there history though Peter let's remember the M8. Now we are somewhat guessing here as well. Who really knows how good or bad Phase/Mamiya or the Hassy factories are and there control mechanisms.
    Guy,
    What is this based on?
    My experience is that Leica has one of the least controlled manufacturing environments.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    I'm quoting Peter there Bob see post above Steve's . My radar went up too. LOL

    Given the M8 I agree with you , it was a mess on release. The M9 was a major improvement and I will give them that. But that is a rebirth this S2 is a new baby in the oven by a long ways.
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm quoting Peter there Bob see post above Steve's . My radar went up too. LOL
    Oh, sorry, it didn't look like a quote.
    -bob

    Good radar bud. I agree this really needs to be proven with the S2 , we don't need a history lesson.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Only vendor I would somehow trust is Leica with their S System, as they obviously have a much tighter control mechanism in place.
    But that was not so much there history though Peter let's remember the M8. Now we are somewhat guessing here as well. Who really knows how good or bad Phase/Mamiya or the Hassy factories are and there control mechanisms.
    Guy,

    agree, while I still believe Leica would have one of the best control processes in place, I of course cannot proof this by any means - just based on what they claim ....

    And yes, I had severe issues with all my M glass on the M8, which had all to go to Solms not only for coding, but unfortunately for fine adjustment of focus. And to make it even worse, it was similar for many of my R glass I used on the DMR.

    So there is only hope that the new designed S glass has a better control process in place.

    Looking forward to your tests ...

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Guy,
    What is this based on?
    My experience is that Leica has one of the least controlled manufacturing environments.
    -bob

    Well... Leica uses finer tolerances than companies like Canon, and this combined with their aspherical technology gives them the ability to produce the kinds of products they do. Their QC is quite extensive, but problems are not unknown, so perhaps it is more fair to say that the gap between planned tolerances and QC is too large.
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Just a FRIENDLY reminder on these Leica S2 forums as of late that folks need to beware of the GetDPI Mantra. Let's keep it friendly folks. I'm not particular happy with what I have been seeing as of late. I know some members are not being involved on purpose and that is not the GetDPI way.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Peter:

    ....

    That said, I have to mention that I have also tested HC 80mm and 35mm against P1 D 80mm and 28mm ...

    Not meaning to imply anything definitive, but in those tests, I also found that the Phase One lenses were sharper after stopping down. So in at least 2 different testing sessions, we found sharper results stopped down when comparing Phase One D lenses to HC. It led me to the thought that the HC lenses are more optimized for larger apertures, while the P1 D lenses more optimized for smaller apertures. This could very well be the case, as anyone who read the excellent Hasselblad HC vs V lens article in the Hasselblad Victor magazine also read about conscious design decisions with regard to optimization of lenses.
    ......


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve do you think that the Phamiya superiority to HC glass will be continued in the new central leaf shuttered glass coming from Phamiya? If so may be worth a switch out of Hasselblad into Phase One...

    I would have stayed with Phase One as a technical back - if I dint have to fuss with wake up cables - what is it with that anyway? Hasselblad and Sinar and Leaf dont have that issue? Do you think Phase can get that sorted ?

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Peter the P40+ and P65+ do not need wakeup cables anymore. On a tech camera such as your Alpa that cord is no longer needed. Just lens cable release if wanted of course. This makes these backs a much more desirable tech camera back.

    As far as glass the LS lenses are made at Schneider which has a long history of building nice glass. Not sure of these in particular since I have not shot them yet but I would expect good performance.

    Obviously the new LS lenses coming does open the door wider on the Phase kits since it does bring a bigger range of shutter speeds to the party now and choice between leaf and non leaf glass. The Hassy glass i believe is still limited to the 1/800 shutter speed. That is if any of this means anything to the shooter in some cases it will not.

    I believe the chart now on sync speeds is

    Hassy 1/800 Leaf shutter only
    Leica S2 1/500 Leaf shutter / Focal shutter 1/125th
    Phase LS lenses all backs 1/800 but the P40+ and P65 will go to 1/1600 / Focal shutter 1/125th
    Sinar I think is 1/1000 leaf shutter ,need confirm on that
    Leaf backs same on Mamiya bodies but not sure of 1/6000 with any Leaf back. Yair can confirm yes or no on that

    I am pretty sure that is how it stands today
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    guy,
    i have used the P65 without wake-up on the alpa but then it empties the batteries sooo fast that i have returned to shooting with wake up.
    peter


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Peter the P40+ and P65+ do not need wakeup cables anymore. On a tech camera such as your Alpa that cord is no longer needed. Just lens cable release if wanted of course. This makes these backs a much more desirable tech camera back.

    As far as glass the LS lenses are made at Schneider which has a long history of building nice glass. Not sure of these in particular since I have not shot them yet but I would expect good performance.

    Obviously the new LS lenses coming does open the door wider on the Phase kits since it does bring a bigger range of shutter speeds to the party now and choice between leaf and non leaf glass. The Hassy glass i believe is still limited to the 1/800 shutter speed. That is if any of this means anything to the shooter in some cases it will not.

    I believe the chart now on sync speeds is

    Hassy 1/800 Leaf shutter only
    Leica S2 1/500 Leaf shutter / Focal shutter 1/125th
    Phase LS lenses all backs 1/800 but the P40+ and P65 will go to 1/1600 / Focal shutter 1/125th
    Sinar I think is 1/1000 leaf shutter ,need confirm on that
    Leaf backs same on Mamiya bodies but not sure of 1/6000 with any Leaf back. Yair can confirm yes or no on that

    I am pretty sure that is how it stands today

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    I did not know that Peter . Never used it myself on a tech just knew it could work from the workshops. Good info
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Peter the P40+ and P65+ do not need wakeup cables anymore. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    guy,
    i have used the P65 without wake-up on the alpa but then it empties the batteries sooo fast that i have returned to shooting with wake up.
    peter
    Talk about being really happy and back to the ground in less than 5 seconds, the time needed to read Peter's post after Guy's!
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Well nice to have the option the wake up cable is a pain but extra batteries sounds like a good idea as well. Depending on the shoot you can make a good choice. Buy cable leave in bag when needed for the all dayers.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well nice to have the option the wake up cable is a pain but extra batteries sounds like a good idea as well. Depending on the shoot you can make a good choice. Buy cable leave in bag when needed for the all dayers.
    As always, the more options the better. Actually, after having done some tests a couple of weeks ago with the Silvestri & the wake up cable, I found that it takes a very short time to get used to the routine of the double-push (one to wake up, one to trigger the back). The only thing is, being fast enough and take the pic before your back is going back to sleep... it happened a few times at first thankfully, subjects for these kind of setups aren't going anywhere very quick!
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Doesn't the Kapture Group One Shot cable work with these backs? One smooth push on the cable release wakes the back and fires the shutter. No worries about missing the wake time window.

    I use one on my P25+ and can't imagine going back to the double press.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Thanks for the info Guy and Peter -much appreciated.

    Guy the Rollie mount glass from Schneider or Zeiss is PQ or PQS the later giving you sync @ 1/1000th the PQ (only) 1/500th.

    Looking forward to seeing the Schneider formulations for the Phamiya - as the Schneiders I use on the Hy6 give a very nice old world lens draw sharp: at focal point and lovely smooth roll off into out of focus.

    I must be getting old now - as I prefer using old school manual focus lenses from Zeiss ( picked up a bunch from Marc recently and Schneider ) ...IMHO the HC lenses are outstanding studio glass - and thats what they have been optimised for.

    As usual - horses for courses.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Well Schneider does have a long history of making very nice glass, your fondness of shooting them is no surprise. i also like when i see David K shots besides the bikini's i do like the look of the glass. I know eventually I will get all 3 LS lenses at some point, want the P40+ back first . Some really nice deals going on right now for it too and the 65 . Something you may want to look into for your Alpa. Any way thanks for the info on the sync speeds .Hard to keep track of all the systems out there.

    Actually can't sleep trying to figure out how to get money to buy one. That's how good the deals are.
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Doesn't the Kapture Group One Shot cable work with these backs? One smooth push on the cable release wakes the back and fires the shutter. No worries about missing the wake time window.

    I use one on my P25+ and can't imagine going back to the double press.
    I clarified this yesterday, and the wake-up cables remain the preferred choice, though are not necessary. The issue is two-fold: First since the back is on all the time without the wake-up cable, it eats batteries. Second, if it's on for more than a minute before the capture, the sensor heats up and generates detrimental noise. So bottom line, is for one or two casual shots with the camera turned off between, no issue. But for regular use on a dedicated tech camera, the KG cables -- one-shot or button -- are still recommended.
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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I clarified this yesterday, and the wake-up cables remain the preferred choice, though are not necessary. The issue is two-fold: First since the back is on all the time without the wake-up cable, it eats batteries. Second, if it's on for more than a minute before the capture, the sensor heats up and generates detrimental noise. So bottom line, is for one or two casual shots with the camera turned off between, no issue. But for regular use on a dedicated tech camera, the KG cables are still recommended.
    Thank you very much Jack for the info. To avoid the heating & noise problem it makes a lot of sense to use the double cable, plus if you are on the field battery is too precious a commodity (and these backs do use up a lot of juice!) to let it deplete just to save one clicking finger movement... so, double click cable stays in the bag even when (and if) I will upgrade to the P65+!
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