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Thread: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

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    Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    If anyone in South Florida is looking to have some quality one-on-one time with a production Leica S2 in a full-blown studio environment with multiple models, wardrobe, hair & makeup, with tons of lighting options, Dale Photo & Digital is hosting an S2 Studio Shoot at TYE Studios this Friday (Nov 20th) from 2-6PM.

    Full details can be found here.

    Out-of-towners are welcome and there are about 10 hotels within a 1 mile radius for very reasonable rates. The studio is located 5 minutes from Ft. Lauderdale (FLL) airport, and is much easier to get in and out of than MIA.

    Email me at [email protected] with any questions.

    Thanks,

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    David, I will see you there. Hope to meet some other folks from the forum.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    David, I will see you there. Hope to meet some other folks from the forum.
    Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
    I had a chance to shoot the Leica S2 again yesterday in a controlled Studio environment and compare the results from my Sinar e75LV/Hy6 with those from a Phase P65 (don't know if it was + or not) mounted on the Phase 645 DF, and a Hasselblad H3D31. All the kits were shot at base ISO with standard lenses except for mine which I shot with both the Schneider 80mm f/2 Xenotar and the Zeiss 110 f/2 Planar. The main light was a Broncolor Para FB 220 metered to f/11. The evening ran late so I did not get copies of the images from the other kits but I've attached mine so you can see what we were shooting (this is Zak, one of the studio interns, who volunteered to sit for us after the models left for the evening). The Phase images were processed in Capture One, the Sinar went from Exposure to LR 3 beta, S2 directly to LR 3 beta and can't recall how the Hassy files were processed. Hopefully, David from Dale Labs will fill in the blanks here. Anyway, after a half-dozen pair of eyes inspected the images ad nauseum, there was no clear winner. The consensus was that the images from the Hasselblad were a notch below the remaining three. In my opinion, the Phase, Sinar and Leica files were all terrific. Each had it's own signature (for lack of a better word) but I would attribute that more to camera profiles and processing than from the hardware. If they were giving away one of these kits as a door prize I would have chosen the Leica S2 but not because it produces better images. I just love the size of the camera, the weather sealing, and the feel of it. It's a camera that I can see taking with me when I would otherwise leave my MF kit behind, e.g. traveling. It's easier to shoot hand held than the competition, again, IMHO. Each kit has it's own strengths and weaknesses and it comes down to which feature set suits you as a shooter. I love the rotating back, WLF and ability to change platforms offered by the Sinar but for what I'm shooting and how I'm using my MF kit these days the Leica S2 would suit me better. I won't get into the issue of pricing because I think that horse has been beaten to death

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    David K,

    Thanks for sharing your insights!
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Thanks, Jack. One thing I can say for sure is that it gave me a new appreciation for the folks who do this kind of in depth testing. The opportunity to compare several high end systems side by side is rare (at least for me) and I'd encourage anyone who's considering either getting into MF or making a switch to try to do it. It's one of the things that makes your workshops so valuable.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Thanks David,
    Sounds like a good experience (or bad experience if lust has taken over). Curious, were you specifically asked to shoot only at base ISO?

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Thanks David,
    Sounds like a good experience (or bad experience if lust has taken over). Curious, were you specifically asked to shoot only at base ISO?
    Not at all, just seemed like the fairest thing to do. As for gear lust... it's always just below the surface, and sometimes not very deep

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Cannot wait to see the tests of Guy and Jack!

    Also cannot wait to test this beast myself - which hopefully will happen in January.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    It's great to see info trickle out from different sources and multiple users. I'm glad to read the reports and see the images from these (and upcoming) showings.

    That said, I'll be happier when we start seeing images which are not shot in studio using lights, seamless backdrops, etc. I'm looking forward to non-studio, "real world" shadows and the like. (Not that studio work isn't "real world", only that it's just one slice of it, and a controlled slice at that.)

    Now that the cameras are making the rounds to different shooters and venues we should be seeing a variety of subject types.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    David nice report and somewhat expected your comments. Better start saving now. LOL
    Looking forward to hearing more and obviously getting my hands on it soon.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Thanks, Jack. One thing I can say for sure is that it gave me a new appreciation for the folks who do this kind of in depth testing. The opportunity to compare several high end systems side by side is rare (at least for me) and I'd encourage anyone who's considering either getting into MF or making a switch to try to do it. It's one of the things that makes your workshops so valuable.
    Thanks David folks don't realize how tough these tests can be comparing systems. The real trick is getting everything to a neutral sate on many levels. Looking forward to this next challenge. Jack and I have a lot planned to really break it all down to get accurate results from each system. I know myself either I am going to move up in back or switch. So this will get a workout in a big way. My money is on the line. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I had a chance to shoot the Leica S2 again yesterday in a controlled Studio environment and compare the results from my Sinar e75LV/Hy6 with those from a Phase P65 (don't know if it was + or not) mounted on the Phase 645 DF, and a Hasselblad H3D31. All the kits were shot at base ISO with standard lenses except for mine which I shot with both the Schneider 80mm f/2 Xenotar and the Zeiss 110 f/2 Planar. The main light was a Broncolor Para FB 220 metered to f/11. The evening ran late so I did not get copies of the images from the other kits but I've attached mine so you can see what we were shooting (this is Zak, one of the studio interns, who volunteered to sit for us after the models left for the evening). The Phase images were processed in Capture One, the Sinar went from Exposure to LR 3 beta, S2 directly to LR 3 beta and can't recall how the Hassy files were processed. Hopefully, David from Dale Labs will fill in the blanks here. Anyway, after a half-dozen pair of eyes inspected the images ad nauseum, there was no clear winner. The consensus was that the images from the Hasselblad were a notch below the remaining three. In my opinion, the Phase, Sinar and Leica files were all terrific. Each had it's own signature (for lack of a better word) but I would attribute that more to camera profiles and processing than from the hardware. If they were giving away one of these kits as a door prize I would have chosen the Leica S2 but not because it produces better images. I just love the size of the camera, the weather sealing, and the feel of it. It's a camera that I can see taking with me when I would otherwise leave my MF kit behind, e.g. traveling. It's easier to shoot hand held than the competition, again, IMHO. Each kit has it's own strengths and weaknesses and it comes down to which feature set suits you as a shooter. I love the rotating back, WLF and ability to change platforms offered by the Sinar but for what I'm shooting and how I'm using my MF kit these days the Leica S2 would suit me better. I won't get into the issue of pricing because I think that horse has been beaten to death
    david,
    are you suggesting that the S2 gets close to the P65 resolutionwise?
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Even Leica themselves were only comparing to the 50s...
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    david,
    are you suggesting that the S2 gets close to the P65 resolutionwise?
    peter
    Peter, I didn't mean to suggest that. I think it clearly doesn't and if we had shot, for example, some landscape I would expect the P65 results to exceed those of the S2 (and my Sinar kit). What I tried to say was that in the test shots we did the P65 did not show any more detail in the skin, hair, etc. It simply wasn't better than my Sinar or the S2 which, arguably, is what you might expect from this type of test. When David F gets around to posting the comparisons (and I'll encourage him to do that in this thread) I think you'll be able to see what I'm saying. If I'm shooting landscape I typically shoot multiple images on a pano head for stitching and have as much resolution as I can handle. I'm making an effort to tread lightly here as I know that many have strong feelings about their gear. My conclusion from the test was that there were no losers and that each system has strengths which are superior to it's competitors. If I were choosing a system today I'd try to shoot them all, including the latest and greatest from Hassy before deciding.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Even Leica themselves were only comparing to the 50s...
    Any news, posts or links for that?

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Peter, I didn't mean to suggest that. I think it clearly doesn't and if we had shot, for example, some landscape I would expect the P65 results to exceed those of the S2 (and my Sinar kit). What I tried to say was that in the test shots we did the P65 did not show any more detail in the skin, hair, etc. It simply wasn't better than my Sinar or the S2 which, arguably, is what you might expect from this type of test. When David F gets around to posting the comparisons (and I'll encourage him to do that in this thread) I think you'll be able to see what I'm saying. If I'm shooting landscape I typically shoot multiple images on a pano head for stitching and have as much resolution as I can handle. I'm making an effort to tread lightly here as I know that many have strong feelings about their gear. My conclusion from the test was that there were no losers and that each system has strengths which are superior to it's competitors. If I were choosing a system today I'd try to shoot them all, including the latest and greatest from Hassy before deciding.
    david,
    thanks for clarifying. actually, i do not feel strongly ybout gear, i feel strongly about images.
    anyway, i am totally with you on landscape shooting, there MP are needed and they are never enough. as far as comparisms go, i prefer to see them from other peope than from a leica dealer, just for fairness' sake.
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Any news, posts or links for that?
    It was said during an interview with Stefan Daniel at Hessenpark:

    http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...el-during.html
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    The Phase images were processed in Capture One, the Sinar went from Exposure to LR 3 beta, S2 directly to LR 3 beta and can't recall how the Hassy files were processed. Hopefully, David from Dale Labs will fill in the blanks here. Anyway, after a half-dozen pair of eyes inspected the images ad nauseum, there was no clear winner. The consensus was that the images from the Hasselblad were a notch below the remaining three.
    David, this surprised me. Why would the Hasselblad images leave a less good impression? I would love it if you could find out how the images were prepared, and talk about the way in which they were less appealing.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Well I think it sounds quite nice so far. For Fashion and people you certainly don't need a P65, you can use it, but I think it is overkill. Normally a 30Mp image is already MORE than enough for every type of magazine. For me the real interesting part will be how a S2 goes against other backs for landscape stuff. I know now, that I probably will be able to shoot the S2 against a P40 and P65 when I am back home again around January. Even if I am sure by now that the S2 is the wrong camera for me, I will want to see what it can do.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    david,
    thanks for clarifying. actually, i do not feel strongly ybout gear, i feel strongly about images.
    anyway, i am totally with you on landscape shooting, there MP are needed and they are never enough. as far as comparisms go, i prefer to see them from other peope than from a leica dealer, just for fairness' sake.
    peter
    Peter,

    I only supplied the S2 and the studio, not the analysis.

    Each individual MFDB owner shot their own focus sequence and I shot the S2. All the cameras were placed in the same position on a tripod with the same focal length (except for the Sinar which had a 110, instead of a 70/80). The lights were reset for each camera so that base ISO on every camera could be used at the same aperture (f/11). As David K said, everyone thought this would be the most fair test.

    We then brought the images into the computer, picked the best focused image from each and attempted to make each camera result look as good as possible (as this is what photographers would need to do in everyday workflow). The Sinar file required the most work, followed by P65+, then H3DII-39. The S2 file required the least amount of PP to get a pleasing result. Others who were there (like David K) can confirm this.

    As far as judging the results, we brought up each file pair at 100% and everyone made their own judgments and comments.

    In the next few days, I'll get the results uploaded for review. This is actually the first time I've had a chance to get online in several days. Been busy with test shoots, setting up and running our S2 studio event, and holding our Leica demo day at the store today. Tomorrow, I get on a plane to meet with some clients. Just a bit busy right now. Promise to get some updates online soon.

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    David, thanks for the clarification on the Hasselblad model, I stand corrected.

    Carsten, I'll let David F address the processing of the Hasselblad file and, when he gets time perhaps he can post a crop from each of the test shots.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    clearly everyone has its own requirements on a (new) camera system. mine is whether i can leave my D3x + nikon lenses at home when i go on a trip, taking in cityscapes, landscapes, some street shooting etc. this requires a well working autofocus and good IQ up to 800 iso. at this point i have not seen anything convincing me that the S2 is good for that. but i am still number 1 on my dealer's list---)))
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwhalen View Post
    David K wrote, "can't recall how the Hassy files were processed. Hopefully, David from Dale Labs will fill in the blanks here. Anyway, after a half-dozen pair of eyes inspected the images ad nauseum, there was no clear winner. The consensus was that the images from the Hasselblad were a notch below the remaining three."



    My goodness. You are comparing different systems and you take the time to understand how the Leica, Phase and Sinar files were processed but you don't take the time to find out how the Hasselblad files were processed?? But then you make a conclusion on those same files!?! I just don't understand this at all.
    The Hasselblad files were processed in LR b3, using the Hasselblad profile (not the Adobe one).

    David
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    The Hasselblad files were processed in LR b3, using the Hasselblad profile (not the Adobe one).

    David
    Why did you not use Phocus? Free to download and use.

    So far I haven't seen any results from using LR2/3 or ACR which do the files justice.

    David

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Why did you not use Phocus? Free to download and use.

    So far I haven't seen any results from using LR2/3 or ACR which do the files justice.

    David
    This is a perfect example of why it's becoming more and more difficult to "test" cameras and backs and do a credible job, and this is just in one area. Software choice does make a difference in the final file, yet few people are facile enough with every software to generate optimal results with all of them.

    I think there is some value in processing all files with the same software, but the methods and software used should be clearly stated at the beginning, and folks should implicitly understand the results may not be optimal for all the camera systems tested. Of course the next issue is relying on the person doing the processing to generate the ideal results for that file -- again difficult to assess unless you know them and their processing personally. Ideally we'd have each system's file optimally processed with the best software for it, all by some "expert" who's credibility is beyond question. Unfortunately that person does not exist. Fortunately for you, Guy and I are close. (KIDDING! KIDDING!!! ).

    So in the end, I think the best we can hope for aside from demoing each camera ourselves, is to garner results from multiple sources like these and convolve them (hah!) into a data set for ourselves --- and this is precisely where and how a forum environment like this one can benefit all participants.

    It should not need to be stated at the front of every test that if you are going to buy a very expensive system, you should fully demo that system BEFORE buying. I think we can assume every reader here will make sure a given system delivers results they are satisfied with before they buy. Even if they don't, at the end of the day it's their choice and their money, and that's all that matters.

    So once again, my personal thanks to everybody who shares their results here even amid the occasional criticisms that get slung their way.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Why did you not use Phocus? Free to download and use. So far I haven't seen any results from using LR2/3 or ACR which do the files justice.
    Does seem more advisable to use each mnfr. native raw processor.

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Phase P65 (don't know if it was + or not) mounted on the Phase 645 DF
    There is only a P65+ (and there is only a P40+). These two backs came out after the plus series started, so there is no non-plus version. (intended as a friendly note - I know it's hard to keep track of all of the manufacturer's various naming schemes even for me - and it's my job!)



    From personal experience I can say running such tests is both mentally exhausting, extremely hard logistically, and not nearly as simple as it seems technically. If you don't agree with the methodology of his test that's your right, but please inject into your postings a consideration for the time and effort it took to produce this test.

    That said, I agree that Hassy's files should be processed in Hassy's software for a more meaningful comparison. David and David: if when you have a chance you could either post a raw file, or run the raw through Phocus I know the forum would appreciate it.

    This is not the test I would have run, but I acknowledge and appreciate the hard work you took in producing it.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Thanks Jack, David and all.

    If there is a RAW file floating about I will gladly process it... with full disclosure of settings. ;-)

    David

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    This is a perfect example of why it's becoming more and more difficult to "test" cameras and backs and do a credible job, and this is just in one area. Software choice does make a difference in the final file, yet few people are facile enough with every software to generate optimal results with all of them.

    I think there is some value in processing all files with the same software, but the methods and software used should be clearly stated at the beginning, and folks should implicitly understand the results may not be optimal for all the camera systems tested. Of course the next issue is relying on the person doing the processing to generate the ideal results for that file -- again difficult to assess unless you know them and their processing personally. Ideally we'd have each system's file optimally processed with the best software for it, all by some "expert" who's credibility is beyond question. Unfortunately that person does not exist. Fortunately for you, Guy and I are close. (KIDDING! KIDDING!!! ).

    So in the end, I think the best we can hope for aside from demoing each camera ourselves, is to garner results from multiple sources like these and convolve them (hah!) into a data set for ourselves --- and this is precisely where and how a forum environment like this one can benefit all participants.

    It should not need to be stated at the front of every test that if you are going to buy a very expensive system, you should fully demo that system BEFORE buying. I think we can assume every reader here will make sure a given system delivers results they are satisfied with before they buy. Even if they don't, at the end of the day it's their choice and their money, and that's all that matters.

    So once again, my personal thanks to everybody who shares their results here even amid the occasional criticisms that get slung their way.

    Cheers,
    Actually, I think the solution is simple, just offer up the RAW files and let people draw their own conclusions. I know Guy generally does and it's far more useful than simply seeing processed jpgs. There are plenty of free hosting sites such as MediaFire that can be used.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    I don't think that David is responsible for the Hasselblad results. He brought the Sinar, and each photographer operated their own camera. He also doesn't need to make any excuses for finding the Hasselblad shots less appealing. If they were less appealing to him, then it is correct that he reported this.

    I question the development though. I am not under the impression that the Hasselblad shots should be any less good than the others. Since it sounds like everyone sat down together and developed the shots, perhaps the Hasselblad owner was simply less experienced. I also think that the shots might have been better developed in Phocus, but that is conjecture on my part.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Thanks Jack, David and all.

    If there is a RAW file floating about I will gladly process it... with full disclosure of settings. ;-)

    David
    i completely agree. hasselblad files are so much better when processed in Phocus. not doing so renders the test obsolete.
    p

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    i have very high expectations in the H4D. the HC lenses beat their mamiya counterparts and they have a central shutter (good for who needs it). it is my feeling that those who want to decide on their future MF system should wait until the H4D is out to compare. most likely the new hassy AF system will beat everything in the MF market.
    after all, we are talking many thousands of $$$...unwise to make a rash decision. peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    i have very high expectations in the H4D. the HC lenses beat their mamiya counterparts and they have a central shutter (good for who needs it). it is my feeling that those who want to decide on their future MF system should wait until the H4D is out to compare. most likely the new hassy AF system will beat everything in the MF market.
    after all, we are talking many thousands of $$$...unwise to make a rash decision. peter

    That brings up great memories, I think I heard that quite often when the H3D came out ^^

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    i have very high expectations in the H4D. the HC lenses beat their mamiya counterparts and they have a central shutter (good for who needs it). it is my feeling that those who want to decide on their future MF system should wait until the H4D is out to compare. most likely the new hassy AF system will beat everything in the MF market.
    after all, we are talking many thousands of $$$...unwise to make a rash decision. peter

    Respectfully I am requesting your source for the results showing HC lenses beating the Mamiya counterparts.


    Thank you,
    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    Actually, I think the solution is simple, just offer up the RAW files and let people draw their own conclusions. I know Guy generally does and it's far more useful than simply seeing processed jpgs. There are plenty of free hosting sites such as MediaFire that can be used.
    Hi guys just got back into town from Sedona with extremely limited internet and NO phone at all. I stayed at a really really nice time share resort and got up at 5 am to actually shoot the interiors, fingers crossed i got something good for my book. Anyway trying to catch up but regardless when we do get to the tests no doubt all the relevant raws will be available to everyone and obviously our processing and converters used will be posted as well so not only will you get to see them in the thread very detailed but get a chance to process them yourselves to evaluate under your processing techniques. Obviously best of both worlds but hell you trying to beat Jack and I at processing is going to be tough. LOL

    You know I am just joking. LAUGH
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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Respect to all ...

    This is hilarious ... a company selling Phase and now Leica sets up a test including the competition then allows judgement of the competition that was processed in a beta version of LR rather than Phocus ... ????????.

    Some folks are beyond gullible. Did no one question this?

    I spent the morning today shooting the S2, 70mm and 180mm ... in the real world, not a studio.

    Many thanks to Chris Snipes and Dales Labs.

    160 shots in different types of light down here in Florida while on R&R at the fab Don Cesar resort.

    Won't post results until I get on my main computer and give it a fair shake.

    Have clear impressions on comparative performance and handling. Some excellent, some not.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    That brings up great memories, I think I heard that quite often when the H3D came out ^^
    And it delivered exactly that ... since I had the then latest most current Mamiya, and Contax 645 to make direct comparisons ... did you?

    Speak from direct experience please, not forum puffery.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Well I don't really care that much about AF, because I don't need it but I know from experience that a H3D would be my last choice that camera feels just cheap and wrong. Than some people are different and prefer it that way.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Hi guys just got back into town from Sedona with extremely limited internet and NO phone at all. I stayed at a really really nice time share resort and got up at 5 am to actually shoot the interiors, fingers crossed i got something good for my book. Anyway trying to catch up but regardless when we do get to the tests no doubt all the relevant raws will be available to everyone and obviously our processing and converters used will be posted as well so not only will you get to see them in the thread very detailed but get a chance to process them yourselves to evaluate under your processing techniques. Obviously best of both worlds but hell you trying to beat Jack and I at processing is going to be tough. LOL

    You know I am just joking. LAUGH
    Oh dear,
    Processing chest thumping LOL
    No disrespect, but processing is one of those parts of digital photography where I feel there is little absolute measure of "best". It is just one of the links that start with subject and end in final image. More and more I have moved away from a processing "routine" to one that is best for the particular image. One would hardly ever process a high-contrast portrait of an elderly man the same way as a studio head shot of a young woman.
    A raw processor is just one of those techno-creative tools that is used along the way. The boundary between (or the distribution of tasks) between the various bits of processing software is also a matter of both product design and personal taste. Many forum wars have been fought over the "best" way of doing things and choice of tools, but truth is that they are all different and differ as well in the results produced based on the operator.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Respectfully I am requesting your source for the results showing HC lenses beating the Mamiya counterparts.


    Thank you,
    Steve Hendrix
    steve,
    just my private testing. in particular i am referring to 28mm, 120mm and 210mm. a while ago i did tests with a P45 on an H1 and (another P45) on an AFD II.
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Respect to all ...

    This is hilarious ... a company selling Phase and now Leica sets up a test including the competition then allows judgement of the competition that was processed in a beta version of LR rather than Phocus ... ????????.

    Some folks are beyond gullible. Did no one question this?

    snip...
    -Marc
    Am I confused, or are there some facts twisted here? I thought that this Leica S2 shoot was provided by a Leica dealer (Dale Labs and David Farkas), not a Phase One dealer who has just added Leica (such as Capture Integration, for example). I'm not choosing sides, but my read was that the tests were done at Dale Labs (a Leica dealer) and the choice of not using Phocus to process the Hasselblad files was that of the Hasselblad owner.

    To be clear, I feel that each respective file should be processed using the best, proprietary (if necessary), RAW processing tools. But I read this remark to suggest to implicate a Phase dealer in wonky comparisons, when as I understand it, the demo was at a Leica dealer. Maybe I've followed this thread improperly and am now off in the brush.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 23rd November 2009 at 01:35.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Am I confused, or are there some facts twisted here? I thought that this Leica S2 shoot was provided by a Leica dealer (Dale Labs and David Farkas), not a Phase One dealer who has just added Leica (such as Capture Integration, for example). I'm not choosing sides, but my read was that the tests were done at Dale Labs (a Leica dealer) and the choice of not using Phocus to process the Hasselblad files was that of the Hasselblad owner.

    To be clear, I feel that each respective file should be processed using the best, proprietary (if necessary), RAW processing tools. But I read this remark to suggest to implicate a Phase dealer in wonky comparisons, when as I understand it, the demo was at a Leica dealer. Maybe I've followed this thread improperly and am now off in the brush.
    Yes, the cross-over influences are indeed confusing ... I was provided a S2 to use by Chris Snipes, Sales Manager Professional Market of Dale Labs ... Chris is also President of Image Productions, a Phase One reseller.

    I DO NOT take comparative testing seriously when set up or performed by ANY representative of ANY company no matter how the business threads may connect them. Not to impinge the integrity of anyone, or any company ... but my experience has been that the apparent results usually get reported as favorable to what is being offered ... no surprise there. This is a function of what doesn't get reported as much as what does.

    In the end were are dealing with sales people no matter how nice they are.

    IMO, to think otherwise is being pretty gullible.

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Well I don't really care that much about AF, because I don't need it but I know from experience that a H3D would be my last choice that camera feels just cheap and wrong. Than some people are different and prefer it that way.
    Your choices are your choices, but now you are resorting to unveiled insults by directly implying anyone selecting a Hasselblad H camera prefers "cheap and wrong."

    This is a clear sign of running out of real discussion points and resorting to retaliatory insults.


    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Oh dear,
    Processing chest thumping LOL
    No disrespect, but processing is one of those parts of digital photography where I feel there is little absolute measure of "best". It is just one of the links that start with subject and end in final image. More and more I have moved away from a processing "routine" to one that is best for the particular image. One would hardly ever process a high-contrast portrait of an elderly man the same way as a studio head shot of a young woman.
    A raw processor is just one of those techno-creative tools that is used along the way. The boundary between (or the distribution of tasks) between the various bits of processing software is also a matter of both product design and personal taste. Many forum wars have been fought over the "best" way of doing things and choice of tools, but truth is that they are all different and differ as well in the results produced based on the operator.
    -bob
    LOL well for testing you don't really do anything anyway just flat process to see what base is. Than go from their with other techniques. Bob I love when you disrespect me, gets my train running in the morning.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Sorry David, but I was wondering why you picked this image with such flat (read horrible) lighting, shot of the intern, late at night when you had a whole day with models? Surely these can't be the best that you came up with! I know that its impossible to satisfy everyone's curiosity here but images like this tell you nothing about the IQ of a system and worse still nothing about the more important stuff like rendering, bokeh, DR, etc...

    Please don't take this the wrong way, I very much appreciate your effort and the spirit of the post.


    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I had a chance to shoot the Leica S2 again yesterday in a controlled Studio environment and compare the results from my Sinar e75LV/Hy6 with those from a Phase P65 (don't know if it was + or not) mounted on the Phase 645 DF, and a Hasselblad H3D31. All the kits were shot at base ISO with standard lenses except for mine which I shot with both the Schneider 80mm f/2 Xenotar and the Zeiss 110 f/2 Planar. The main light was a Broncolor Para FB 220 metered to f/11. The evening ran late so I did not get copies of the images from the other kits but I've attached mine so you can see what we were shooting (this is Zak, one of the studio interns, who volunteered to sit for us after the models left for the evening). The Phase images were processed in Capture One, the Sinar went from Exposure to LR 3 beta, S2 directly to LR 3 beta and can't recall how the Hassy files were processed. Hopefully, David from Dale Labs will fill in the blanks here. Anyway, after a half-dozen pair of eyes inspected the images ad nauseum, there was no clear winner. The consensus was that the images from the Hasselblad were a notch below the remaining three. In my opinion, the Phase, Sinar and Leica files were all terrific. Each had it's own signature (for lack of a better word) but I would attribute that more to camera profiles and processing than from the hardware. If they were giving away one of these kits as a door prize I would have chosen the Leica S2 but not because it produces better images. I just love the size of the camera, the weather sealing, and the feel of it. It's a camera that I can see taking with me when I would otherwise leave my MF kit behind, e.g. traveling. It's easier to shoot hand held than the competition, again, IMHO. Each kit has it's own strengths and weaknesses and it comes down to which feature set suits you as a shooter. I love the rotating back, WLF and ability to change platforms offered by the Sinar but for what I'm shooting and how I'm using my MF kit these days the Leica S2 would suit me better. I won't get into the issue of pricing because I think that horse has been beaten to death

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Well perhaps I should have written the full meaning out instead of shorting it. It certainly wasn't meant as an insult. It's just that I feel that way, that does not mean the camera is cheap or of bad quality, it is just my own personal feeling. When I was referring that other people like it that way, I more meant that some people just like a different camera feeling, as some with the Leaf Afi, which I liked even worse than the H3D (just talking about handling and shooting with a camera not really about features or image quality) That however, does not change what I feel about the camera. One could go on and on, but does it really matter in the end ? We buy what we like and what works to earn us money.

    When it comes to your opinion on the test, I fully agree. A company wants to sell their product so I would never think that such a review (made my any camera company) is objective. It goes for every industry. No company would ever tell you that their product is great, but the competition is as good, but could be cheaper or anything similar. It can be helpful to check out some raw files to get a feeling for a camera, but a serious test can only be done in person shooting with the actual cameras.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Well perhaps I should have written the full meaning out instead of shorting it. It certainly wasn't meant as an insult. It's just that I feel that way, that does not mean the camera is cheap or of bad quality, it is just my own personal feeling. When I was referring that other people like it that way, I more meant that some people just like a different camera feeling, as some with the Leaf Afi, which I liked even worse than the H3D (just talking about handling and shooting with a camera not really about features or image quality) That however, does not change what I feel about the camera. One could go on and on, but does it really matter in the end ? We buy what we like and what works to earn us money.
    As I said, we like what we like. Some think the Hy6 the best MF camera ever designed, others like you don't. I also have certain feelings about certain cameras and would never even consider them. I assume others that prefer something else are intelligent and know their needs. If I have experiential information counter to an opinion based on actual use, I most certainly would share it for consideration.

    Peace,

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Sorry David, but I was wondering why you picked this image with such flat (read horrible) lighting, shot of the intern, late at night when you had a whole day with models? Surely these can't be the best that you came up with! I know that its impossible to satisfy everyone's curiosity here but images like this tell you nothing about the IQ of a system and worse still nothing about the more important stuff like rendering, bokeh, DR, etc...

    Please don't take this the wrong way, I very much appreciate your effort and the spirit of the post.
    David, no worries about me taking your question the wrong way. Let me try to put it in perspective. The studio event was hosted by David as a demo for the S2 not as a comparative test shoot for different systems. Don't know the exact number of folks who showed up but it was over 20 participants, David and his wife, Chris Snipes and Roland Wolff from Leica, and about four models but only the one camera. In short, a lot of people. Everybody wanted a chance to shoot each model and, in many cases, with both the lenses that were available. As you can imagine, this took hours to complete. At the end of the shooting I told David that I wanted to do a head to head comparison of the S2 and my Sinar kit for the kind of stuff that I frequently shoot. By that time the models were exhausted and had left the studio. As long as we were setting up for my requested test we decided to add the Phase and Hasselblad kits. All the shooting was done tethered into LR 3 beta except for my files which needed to be run through the Sinar eXposure software which David F (who uses a PC) didn't have. Consequently, all the files shot reside on David F's laptop in folders identifying the shooter. David will be providing those images to each of the participants but hasn't had a chance to do so yet. I've got plenty of images that I shot with my Sinar kit but I didn't think anybody was much interested in them (if someone is, they are welcome to drop me a pm and I'll provide the DNG's gladly). Bottom line is that there are plenty of great images of good looking models taken with the S2 (including many shot by my good friend and excellent photographer Andre Rowe the day before) but nothing besides the posted shot that shows comparative results from the different systems.

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Oh dear,
    Processing chest thumping LOL
    No disrespect, but processing is one of those parts of digital photography where I feel there is little absolute measure of "best". It is just one of the links that start with subject and end in final image. More and more I have moved away from a processing "routine" to one that is best for the particular image. One would hardly ever process a high-contrast portrait of an elderly man the same way as a studio head shot of a young woman.
    A raw processor is just one of those techno-creative tools that is used along the way. The boundary between (or the distribution of tasks) between the various bits of processing software is also a matter of both product design and personal taste. Many forum wars have been fought over the "best" way of doing things and choice of tools, but truth is that they are all different and differ as well in the results produced based on the operator.
    -bob
    Despite the friendly needling of Guy, , I have to agree with you on this, Bob. When I was shooting equestrian events several years ago, I was killing myself on the processing side of things. colleagues thought I was nuts....just post quick JPEGs and then process any ordered stuff later, they said. That was the mantra of most event shooting, and pretty much still is. That is where formulae and routines help a lot. I was the crazed one there too. I handled each file separately, no batch processing. I tweaked each selected shot how I thought it best. Used to take me several days to process the thousands of shots from a big weekend event. Bottom line, those individually handled images were all "finals" by the time I posted them, and resulted in many times more sales than my competitors at the time. I have never really gotten out of that method. Yes, I may lift and stamp some settings on a series of shots taken in the exact same light, but even then each gets tweaked a bit more individually. If I wanted them to look routine, then I would shoot JPEGs and be done with it

    So, like Bob, I think that processing is just another step. Yes, use the best tool for that step, but it is only one more step. I learned to take the best care for each step in the process, and things usually turn out quite well.

    I also agree with several others here....to evaluate things in a comparison test, level the playing field with the light and stuff, then use the conversion and processing that is from the OEM, as that should be best tuned for the gear. In Leica's case, they do not have their own converter software beyond the in-camera stuff, so it seems appropriate to use whatever one is most comfortable using, hopefully with good profiles for that conversion. In the case of Hasselblad, Phocus should be used, as it is nicely tuned to their files, from what I am seeing. May not be the most familiar tool, but it is probably the best for the job. Same holds for Phase....use C1. Otherwise, there are just more variables being mixed in for folks to debate endlessly.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 Studio Shoot - Nov 20th

    Love needling. LOL

    This thread got way to serious. Have a little fun folks. Okay espresso number 3 coming right up.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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