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Thread: S2 in the "Real World"

  1. #51
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Thanks Marc and i think what some are saying and obviously not enough images on this thing yet in varies conditions but just in general maybe more about smoothness of file that is not necessarily there in these tough lighting shots which are hard to see that level of look to begin with if you know what I mean. It's a good start but as we see this system progress and raw converters that may work better or worse with the files than it is hard to tell. L3 is beta and we don't know how the final will look either. Jack and I talked about this on the phone about when we get to test it is a general hold onto the raws until all the software catches up and than go back and reprocess the files and see if changes are made and what converters maybe best for the S2 files in the end. The one major problem here on the forum is simple this we are looking at a premature system that has no definitive answers yet. Here is when we need to be careful on evaluation because it does not have a history to it and making snap judgements on only a select few of files is first not a good way to evaluate it or make final it's awesome or it sucks decisions yet and this is a reminder to the members here that we have to be careful about that.

    Patience is the key I think. Look at any of the other backs out there and the time it takes to understand them and the biggy here to get the best out of them. This is key IMHO so we need to look think and compare in a sensible way. It's not the best and it is not the worst out there they are both unknowns and until the system is truly in place how do we really know. Right now with your posts here you added some more clues to the big puzzle in the sky but more pieces need to be added to that. Heck just on the AF alone your not going to move big fat elements around that fast to begin with and that is true for all MF systems. This is single pint just like Phase but keeping up with a 8fps second 35mm is just not reality with MF. I agree 35mm folks should know this going in. Not that it is not good but more on par with others in this MF field. Better or worse we all find out but high expectations should be in check with any new system. This is what I am trying to get across to the members here is be patient be realistic and be honest with yourself and others here as well. End of the day this is just a camera but you neighbor is your neighbor and stop pissing on his garden. Sorry but I see a some real struggles here lately and it needs to come to a halt. Sorry to interject this but this is GetDPI folks and you know what we are about. Lets keep it on the level we are accustomed too. Thanks sorry to put that in there but I think it is needed.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  2. #52
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Well said Marc and Guy... and let me publicly say sorry if I "pissed on anyone's garden".

    I mean that.

  3. #53
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    LOL your fine and we certainly have opinions and that is awesome as we should. No one wants real fights between members and insults that is our only concern. Disagreeing is healthy, I'm married and know that fact all to well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Marc and i think what some are saying and obviously not enough images on this thing yet in varies conditions but just in general maybe more about smoothness of file that is not necessarily there in these tough lighting shots which are hard to see that level of look to begin with if you know what I mean. It's a good start but as we see this system progress and raw converters that may work better or worse with the files than it is hard to tell. L3 is beta and we don't know how the final will look either. Jack and I talked about this on the phone about when we get to test it is a general hold onto the raws until all the software catches up and than go back and reprocess the files and see if changes are made and what converters maybe best for the S2 files in the end. The one major problem here on the forum is simple this we are looking at a premature system that has no definitive answers yet. Here is when we need to be careful on evaluation because it does not have a history to it and making snap judgements on only a select few of files is first not a good way to evaluate it or make final it's awesome or it sucks decisions yet and this is a reminder to the members here that we have to be careful about that.

    Patience is the key I think. Look at any of the other backs out there and the time it takes to understand them and the biggy here to get the best out of them. This is key IMHO so we need to look think and compare in a sensible way. It's not the best and it is not the worst out there they are both unknowns and until the system is truly in place how do we really know. Right now with your posts here you added some more clues to the big puzzle in the sky but more pieces need to be added to that. Heck just on the AF alone your not going to move big fat elements around that fast to begin with and that is true for all MF systems. This is single pint just like Phase but keeping up with a 8fps second 35mm is just not reality with MF. I agree 35mm folks should know this going in. Not that it is not good but more on par with others in this MF field. Better or worse we all find out but high expectations should be in check with any new system. This is what I am trying to get across to the members here is be patient be realistic and be honest with yourself and others here as well. End of the day this is just a camera but you neighbor is your neighbor and stop pissing on his garden. Sorry but I see a some real struggles here lately and it needs to come to a halt. Sorry to interject this but this is GetDPI folks and you know what we are about. Lets keep it on the level we are accustomed too. Thanks sorry to put that in there but I think it is needed.
    Yep, just a few more pieces of the puzzle.

    We can make our observations ... but nothing is B&W. No matter how much people want to polarize the comments based on pre-conceived expectations, most observations are shades of grey until more and more info is added and clarifies the total picture.

    -Marc

  5. #55
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Totally agree Marc. Take it one image at a time for now, there is a lot of money at stake either way and people need to be sure of those buy decisions. I don't care one way or the other just don't want people making bad mistakes based on bad info.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ... but nothing is B&W. . . . shades of grey
    Which reminds me - did you try try processing any of the S2 images in B&W? I know this was a concern of yours with the M9 so it would be interesting to see how the S2 files look in B&W and if it requires any special workflow.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yep, just a few more pieces of the puzzle.

    We can make our observations ... but nothing is B&W. No matter how much people want to polarize the comments based on pre-conceived expectations, most observations are shades of grey until more and more info is added and clarifies the total picture.

    -Marc
    Well said!
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    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Thanks for taking the time to post, Marc.
    I'm sad because the S2 seems more and more like the right camera for me and $$$ is tight...

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    General feeling right now it seems for many of us.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to post, Marc.
    I'm sad because the S2 seems more and more like the right camera for me and $$$ is tight...
    Same for me, this system I did not consider 6 months ago, but now I am getting stuck with it the more I read and see about this.

    But agree $$$$ is very high for this amount of MP. So IQ has to be outstanding besides all the other very positive features like form factor, robustness etc. etc.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Peter, I think IQ is outstanding on all the latest backs these days. Whether it's worth what it costs is a personal decision that varies for all of us but, IMHO, is a bit more difficult for those of us who already own MF systems which are now worth so much less than we expected.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Which reminds me - did you try try processing any of the S2 images in B&W? I know this was a concern of yours with the M9 so it would be interesting to see how the S2 files look in B&W and if it requires any special workflow.
    I'm back at my home station now and will give it a try as soon as I get some free time.

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    General feeling right now it seems for many of us.
    You heard it HERE! ..the dreaded "US" word

    and, no selling your mamyia/Phase system as "Man Guycuso" isn't going to fool anyone



    but I am heartened by a shift in thinking by the senior professionals amongst us...

    who knows, maybe I will follow up on my deposit this time...

    All kidding aside, I think many here are going to be interested in your and Jack's tests. As one who bought (still has, still uses and still loves) the DMR based on the evidence in "that other forum", from Guy and others, the real world pragmatism and everyday shooting experience is far better than all the bench tests in the work.

    Go for it

    Regards
    Victir

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    "How do you know it focuses "definitely better than any other MF system based on just this ... did you have all the other MF cameras right there to test in the same light on the same subject? Just curious."

    After I handled the S2, I quickly went to the Hasselblad-booth and Sinar (Hy6) to compare the "feeling" while I had the S2 well in mind - I didn't like the sound of the Summarit 70-AF but under these comparable light situations the AF definitely felt better than the others. It wasn't "pumping" or "hunting" for focus, activate it, one fast (annoying) "sssrrttt" and done.


    "And has anybody really expected that Leica got their supplier to invent a new sensor which shows better noise performance than all other CCDs while having smaller pixels?"

    It uses microlenses, the other current-sensor-offerings do not - out of curiosity, how far (ISO/noise-wise) would you go with a P40+/P65+ in comparison to a D3X/1dsMkIII (not for web-applications but critical print work from manually processed RAW-files). Are there final firmware DNGs out for 640/1250ASA? Haven't seen them yet!?
    Even the Mamiya ZD has a better AF than the Hy6.
    Wasnt the conclusion that those MF-sensor which use microlenses do show slightly less detail at pixel-level?

    I cant talk about the P40+/P65+, but the 75LV doesnt do bad at ISO800 and I wouldnt feel afraid to push it one more 1/2 step.
    I am not saying that I dont expect the S2 to be little better-I just doubt it will be a quantum step as it sometimes sounds.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I do not care about quantum steps or even incremental steps better - if it performs on the level of the best MFDBs in terms of IQ and ISO, then the form factor for me is the really killing argument.

    Somehow my dream equipment carves out of the noisy darkness:

    P45+ and a Tech Cam (maybe Alpa) with 1 or 2 great Schneider lenses

    S2 with 3 lenses - a good WA, 70 and 180

    Can process all in C1 then, do not have to fight with a H3D or H4D or Phase camera, leaves me alone without any Phase or Hasselblad glass manufactured and designed in Japan or elsewhere - which I all do not like too much - sorry -

    And am done

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Please, any long exposure anywhere ?
    if i had to change my MFD it will be for the long exposure by night...

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    BJP's Leica S2 pre-release minitest is up.

    More mini than test

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I could not see myself spending 16k for an S2 if I had allready another back (with a larger sensor) for a tech camera allready (as long as I dont win the lottery)
    This would be like paying additional 13k just for using a Leica S2 body instead of a Mamiya body, plus it would mean more bulk and weight if you want to bring both cameras.

    Now if the T/S-lens from Leica would be so good that one wanted to give up on the tech camera it might be a different story.



    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I do not care about quantum steps or even incremental steps better - if it performs on the level of the best MFDBs in terms of IQ and ISO, then the form factor for me is the really killing argument.

    Somehow my dream equipment carves out of the noisy darkness:

    P45+ and a Tech Cam (maybe Alpa) with 1 or 2 great Schneider lenses

    S2 with 3 lenses - a good WA, 70 and 180

    Can process all in C1 then, do not have to fight with a H3D or H4D or Phase camera, leaves me alone without any Phase or Hasselblad glass manufactured and designed in Japan or elsewhere - which I all do not like too much - sorry -

    And am done

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    The images look about like I expected - like a modern DMR with more resolution. Awesome. Nothing else has color depth like that.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    While I agree that the camera looks, good, I don't know what images you mean. I can't see anything better or special about them. They are as good as expected from such an expensive system, but certainly not better. Still there are even people how actually thought that the DMR, was completely over hyped by a red dot.

    A dream would be to use a Canon SLR, M9, S2 and P65 with a LF camera all together. Perhaps I should start going to vegas a lot more often.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I came across this remark in an article relating to the price of gold and expectations of hyperinflation. As I read the words I couldn't help but think how it well it applied to this dialogue:

    "Some years ago, when I was researching my first financial book, on sports betting, I was struck again and again by the human ability to see something that isn't there. (During the 2002 Super Bowl, fans continued to bet on the heavily favored St. Louis Rams to trounce the underdog new England Patriots well into the game – even as the Patriots were already showing the strength that would take them on to win.) People will see, and bet on, what they expect to see, what they want to see, or even what they are told they are seeing, as often as they will see, and bet on, what they are actually seeing."

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    The mention of gold is interesting since I'm up 76% on gold purchases in pure profit after premiums, transaction fees and taxes. Just bringing this up for the surfer that might have been thinking about getting out of stocks or real estate. I've made enough profit in USD from gold in the past 2 years to buy an S2 system for cash, but don't plan on selling just yet

    It's true that there is a psychology going on when it comes to the S2. The simplest way to explain it is to use an analogy that my sister learned in a basic marketing class in college. When discussing target markets, the instructor said "if a person walks into a store and doesn't feel comfortable, then he's not supposed to be in the store and it wasn't designed for him." That simple statement sums up most of the misunderstandings of the S2. Those that aren't comfortable with the idea aren't the target market in the first place. No-harm-no-foul, they can just leave the store and move onto another store where they may feel more comfortable.

    Some people will want the S2 as a status symbol, but most will buy it because it's a system built around the lenses. The S2 is about the lenses...not ISO, or AF, or size, or weather sealing. The S2 is about having a system designed around the lenses. If some people don't see the advantage of the Leica lenses within an integrated system, then they can just move on to another open system with different lenses. If they want higher ISO or more AF points, then there are plenty of camera systems available that can do that too. If some people want to shoot through AA filters so that they won't have to fix a little moire in post, there are already plenty of cameras with heavy filtering that will happily accommodate these needs. No-harm-no-foul, there is room for everybody.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    Hasselblad glass manufactured and designed in Japan or elsewhere...
    Just to point out, our 'Glass' is designed in Sweden.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Sweden is elsewhere And it is manufactured in Japan, just to be clear.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Just to point out, our 'Glass' is designed in Sweden.
    Ok, designed in Sweden, but manufactured in Japan, so not exactly what I want to see, but I agree, this is maybe the best way to survive economically today.

    BTW - I heard that Hasselblad is actually owned by a Chinese company (family/imperium) - is that true?

    Not that his is bad at all, I just ask myself then how constant and predictible the Hasselblad future will look like long term.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    The mention of gold is interesting since I'm up 76% on gold purchases in pure profit after premiums, transaction fees and taxes. Just bringing this up for the surfer that might have been thinking about getting out of stocks or real estate. I've made enough profit in USD from gold in the past 2 years to buy an S2 system for cash, but don't plan on selling just yet

    It's true that there is a psychology going on when it comes to the S2. The simplest way to explain it is to use an analogy that my sister learned in a basic marketing class in college. When discussing target markets, the instructor said "if a person walks into a store and doesn't feel comfortable, then he's not supposed to be in the store and it wasn't designed for him." That simple statement sums up most of the misunderstandings of the S2. Those that aren't comfortable with the idea aren't the target market in the first place. No-harm-no-foul, they can just leave the store and move onto another store where they may feel more comfortable.

    Some people will want the S2 as a status symbol, but most will buy it because it's a system built around the lenses. The S2 is about the lenses...not ISO, or AF, or size, or weather sealing. The S2 is about having a system designed around the lenses. If some people don't see the advantage of the Leica lenses within an integrated system, then they can just move on to another open system with different lenses. If they want higher ISO or more AF points, then there are plenty of camera systems available that can do that too. If some people want to shoot through AA filters so that they won't have to fix a little moire in post, there are already plenty of cameras with heavy filtering that will happily accommodate these needs. No-harm-no-foul, there is room for everybody.
    I think that's what we are trying to determine ... how ARE the lenses? Just because it has Leica stamped on it isn't enough to shell out this kind of coin. The competition is pretty stiff in this neck of the MFD woods.

    Zeiss, Schneider and yes, even many of the HC optics. I mean talk about interesting ... Schneider AF lenses with leaf shutter action up to 1/1600th?
    Frankly, that's as interesting to me as this S2 is. I'd LOVE to see that new Phase One system in action ...

    Oh, oh,

    Marc

  27. #77
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    It's true that there is a psychology going on when it comes to the S2. The simplest way to explain it is to use an analogy that my sister learned in a basic marketing class in college. When discussing target markets, the instructor said "if a person walks into a store and doesn't feel comfortable, then he's not supposed to be in the store and it wasn't designed for him." That simple statement sums up most of the misunderstandings of the S2. Those that aren't comfortable with the idea aren't the target market in the first place. No-harm-no-foul, they can just leave the store and move onto another store where they may feel more comfortable.
    Your sister needs change her teacher since more than likely the designers screwed up that store and wanted to pass the buck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    Some people will want the S2 as a status symbol, but most will buy it because it's a system built around the lenses. The S2 is about the lenses...not ISO, or AF, or size, or weather sealing. The S2 is about having a system designed around the lenses.
    What lenses are you talking about? As of now there are many gaps in their line up! And what makes you think that Leica's S2 lenses are going to be any better than other makers with years of experience in the MF field? You seem to forget that software and digital engineering is at least 50% of the equation in the design of a modern day camera, something that Leica is a relative newbie at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    If some people don't see the advantage of the Leica lenses within an integrated system, then they can just move on to another open system with different lenses. If they want higher ISO or more AF points, then there are plenty of camera systems available that can do that too. If some people want to shoot through AA filters so that they won't have to fix a little moire in post, there are already plenty of cameras with heavy filtering that will happily accommodate these needs. No-harm-no-foul, there is room for everybody.
    This is as simplistic a comment as what was taught to your sister about the store, I very much doubt that Leica wants anyone to walk away from the S2. If they're having difficulty convincing experienced MF shooters is because they dropped the ball somewhere...

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    David, Leica may be aiming at DSLR users, for all we know. Even if they got a large piece of the MF pie it doesn't amount to much.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Ok, designed in Sweden, but manufactured in Japan, so not exactly what I want to see, but I agree, this is maybe the best way to survive economically today.
    Peter, I didn't realize that Japan was such a manufacturing dump for cheap labor!

    As far as I know Japan is one of if not the premiere manufacturing nation for quality and high end manufacturing...

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Ok, designed in Sweden, but manufactured in Japan, so not exactly what I want to see, but I agree, this is maybe the best way to survive economically today.

    BTW - I heard that Hasselblad is actually owned by a Chinese company (family/imperium) - is that true?

    Not that his is bad at all, I just ask myself then how constant and predictable the Hasselblad future will look like long term.
    You mean manufactured in Japan like the Zeiss lenses for Contax were? And the Zeiss ZA lenses for Sony? And the new Mamiya D lenses? And the current Zeiss ZF lenses and ZE lenses? Or optics like the Mamiya 7 lenses? Then there were those Fuji lenses for the XPan. You mean Japanese made lenses like those?

    One can ask oneself how constant and predictable Hasselblad, or Leaf, or Mamiya and Phase future looks, or any MF company with the likes of self-sustaining, sensor making companies like Sony and Canon breathing down their necks ... not to mention RED. All these companies are just one technological breakthrough away from oblivion.

    In the meantime, we have to make photographs with something

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think that's what we are trying to determine ... how ARE the lenses? Just because it has Leica stamped on it isn't enough to shell out this kind of coin. The competition is pretty stiff in this neck of the MFD woods.
    Indeed the competition is stiff, and the "Red Dot" isn't necessarily going to be enough to carry a new system though to market maturity. No misunderstanding here, SEVERAL will buy the S2 simply because of the Leica name, but that does not guarantee sustainability.

    Zeiss, Schneider and yes, even many of the HC optics. I mean talk about interesting ... Schneider AF lenses with leaf shutter action up to 1/1600th?
    Frankly, that's as interesting to me as this S2 is. I'd LOVE to see that new Phase One system in action ...

    Oh, oh,

    Marc
    Well my friend, I took that plunge a few days ago. (FTR, my decision was based on the facts it was a lot less expensive than a move to the S2 and my uses tip the scales in favor of a modular system. Plus my needs for a portable MF system are not significant and I can accomplish everything I want to on that front with my existing Canon DSLR.) So as soon as I get my new back, body and first LS lens, you will have as detailed a report as I can give, complete with studio strobe and Metz 54 raw files loaded online. Just don't blame me for the time it takes to download 60MP raw files!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Sweden is elsewhere And it is manufactured in Japan, just to be clear.
    What is?

    My H back says made in Denmark. The camera says Made in Sweden. The lenses are Japanese made as is the electronic finder prism HVD-90.

    Seems to all work so far.


    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Jack,

    "I took that plunge a few days ago?" Which plunge? A new back, too?

    Steve

    (A new back. Wow, no more low back pain, no need for stretching. A dream come true.)

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Indeed, the competition is stiff, and the "Red Dot" isn't necessarily going to be enough to carry a new system though to market maturity. No misunderstanding here, SEVERAL will buy the S2 simply because of the Leica name, but that does not guarantee sustainability.



    Well my friend, I took that plunge a few days ago... so as soon as I get my new back, body and first LS lens, you will have as detailed a report as I can give, complete with studio strobe and Metz 54 raw files loaded online. Just don't blame me for the time it takes to download 60MP raw files!
    Oh Jacky Boy, you are such a BAD influence.

    I mean I've cleared the wifey hurdle , and that smell wafting through the studio is my "black bag funds" burning a hole in my pocket.

    Then I get this swap Promo from a Phase One rep ... very tempting .... very tempting indeed.

    Which LS lens did you get? So, you can shoot either LS to 1/1,600th OR FS to 1/4000th with the same lens?

    Yummy!

    Can't wait for your report !!!!

    -Marc

  35. #85
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    David, Leica may be aiming at DSLR users, for all we know. Even if they got a large piece of the MF pie it doesn't amount to much.
    I doubt it, the Mamiya ZD is a good example and it cost less than 10k. $40,000-$50,000 for a camera and 2-3 lenses is too much of a reach for most dslr users, sure some might but not most. This is MF with all its limitations and demands from the user, besides from everything that I've seen Leica is targeting the pro user, and pro rental houses.

    As far as the MF pie goes, well, I have no idea how big or how small it is, but I'm sure that its enough for a niche player like Leica. What they have in the S2 is a niche product for a niche market...

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Jack,

    "I took that plunge a few days ago?" Which plunge? A new back, too?

    Steve
    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Oh Jacky Boy, you are such a BAD influence.

    I mean I've cleared the wifey hurdle , and that smell wafting through the studio is my "black bag funds" burning a hole in my pocket.

    Then I get this swap Promo from a Phase One rep ... very tempting .... very tempting indeed.

    Which LS lens did you get? So, you can shoot either LS to 1/1,600th OR FS to 1/4000th with the same lens?

    Yummy!

    Can't wait for your report !!!!

    -Marc
    Yes, the latest PhaseOne trade-up deal was too good to pass up, so I jumped, trading my P45+ up for the P65+. I also took advantage of the added free DF body and half-price LS lens deal on any Hassy H trade in -- had an old H1 with 80 sitting in the closet, so my first LS lens will be the 80 from that trade-in. I really want the 110 though... Who am I kidding, in the end I'll want ALL the LS lenses anyway

    Only problem with my detailed report is the back will likely arrive well ahead of the new body and LS lens, and the strobe test will have to wait for that --- unless I can convince CI to loan me their demo set for a few days

    And yes, you can shoot BOTH 1/1600th LS and 1/4000th FP with the same lens. Moreover, if I understood the info correctly, there is apparently a custom setting that allows the shutter selection to be automatic -- the lens defaults to LS mode for the LS speeds or when a flash is connected, and flips to FP for higher speeds when no flash is present. Sounds almost too good to be true, so you can bet I'll be exploring that aspect in a little more depth.

    For you Marc, the one thing that could prove really interesting is the binned, 15MP ISO 3200 combined with a 1/1600th flash synch and capture at up to 1.8 frames per second. I am thinking those files converted to B&W might just have an interesting look to them...
    Jack
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    LOL spilled the beans . I'm trying like crazy to get the P40+ right now , just need MONEY..

    CI is loaning us a P40+ and a DF body for our tests unless Jack get's his DF body first. Maybe a 80 LS will come but we doubt it in time for our tests . But I won't second guess Dave for a second he has pulled the rabbit out of the hat several times so we will to see what he and his crew can get in our hands.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Wow,

    P65+ and Schneider lens could get me back to Phase...loved my P20. I would need to change my Alpa DB adapter but that is a minor deal.

    Marc, the only information I have seen is a trade value on the H2D 39...have you received any specifics on the H3DII 39's?

    Bob

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Bob, I think the latest H trade-in is ANY H body and lens for the free DF body and half-price LS lens of same focal. The H backs all have different trade-in values toward the P back, depending on exactly which model they are. The deal is you need to trade in the body, lens and back as a package to get the full deal.
    Jack
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Jack



  41. #91
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Any loan sharks out there. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Bob, I think the latest H trade-in is ANY H body and lens for the free DF body and half-price LS lens of same focal. The H backs all have different trade-in values toward the P back, depending on exactly which model they are. The deal is you need to trade in the body, lens and back as a package to get the full deal.
    I guess I need to contact CI this week.

    Bob

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    I doubt it, the Mamiya ZD is a good example and it cost less than 10k. $40,000-$50,000 for a camera and 2-3 lenses is too much of a reach for most dslr users, sure some might but not most. This is MF with all its limitations and demands from the user, besides from everything that I've seen Leica is targeting the pro user, and pro rental houses.

    As far as the MF pie goes, well, I have no idea how big or how small it is, but I'm sure that its enough for a niche player like Leica. What they have in the S2 is a niche product for a niche market...
    Huh? What is the ZD a good example of? A DSLR? An MF camera? I think it isn't a good example of anything in this context.

    I am not sure why you think that most DSLR users need to switch for Leica to make money. A few would do it, and I am sure that they can pull this off. There are many pros who ditched their MF gear and are using Canons and Nikons simply because the MF is too slow, too crashy or too inflexible. The S2 revises this formula a bit, and for those users who it makes a difference to, the price isn't a real obstacle.

    ---

    Boy, is everyone on the warpath again or what? What is going on here? Marc, I just said that Sweden is not in Japan and that the Hasselblad lenses ("our 'Glass'") are made in Japan. I think that isn't pushing it too far. I was not insinuating anything.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    While I agree that the camera looks, good, I don't know what images you mean. I can't see anything better or special about them. They are as good as expected from such an expensive system, but certainly not better. Still there are even people how actually thought that the DMR, was completely over hyped by a red dot.
    I was talking about the images David posted on his blog. Hard to explain unless you have run a lot of files through a DMR, but it is easy to spot. There is a certain depth and rendering to the colors that's easy to spot. The DMR had it, the M8 never did but I think the M9 might (no experience with one, just seen some pictures). The Phase backs are stunning, but they render color differently when combined with Mamiya or Hassleblad lenses. The Leaf backs are closer. This is not an empirical "better," this my "better."

    The chance of me ever owning a S2 is extremely slim because I seem to be heading toward a rangefinder when weight matters (80% of the time) and LF when it doesn't. Different strokes, right? But I will admire from a distance.

    A dream would be to use a Canon SLR, M9, S2 and P65 with a LF camera all together. Perhaps I should start going to vegas a lot more often.
    And my dream is all that along with someone else to carry them.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think that's what we are trying to determine ... how ARE the lenses? Just because it has Leica stamped on it isn't enough to shell out this kind of coin. The competition is pretty stiff in this neck of the MFD woods.

    Zeiss, Schneider and yes, even many of the HC optics. I mean talk about interesting ... Schneider AF lenses with leaf shutter action up to 1/1600th?
    Frankly, that's as interesting to me as this S2 is. I'd LOVE to see that new Phase One system in action ...

    Oh, oh,

    Marc
    I'll try and explain one more time.

    There are lots of great camera systems and lots of great lens choices. I think that the people that will CHOOSE to buy the S2 over other systems will mostly do so because of the lenses. I'm definitely not saying one is better than the other. Hasselblad, Mamiya, Zeiss, Schneider, Rodenstock etc...all of those are great lenses. Canon and Nikon make great lenses too. The only thing I'm saying is that the final motivation for a person to put down serious money on the S2 is probably going to come down to a preference for the lenses. Just about everything that the S2 does can be done by another system equally well or better. The only thing that truly makes the S2 different from other systems is the lenses. That doesn't mean they're better. It just means that it's different and offers one more choice. That's all.
    Last edited by Mike M; 26th November 2009 at 10:00. Reason: typo

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Your sister needs change her teacher since more than likely the designers screwed up that store and wanted to pass the buck!



    What lenses are you talking about? As of now there are many gaps in their line up! And what makes you think that Leica's S2 lenses are going to be any better than other makers with years of experience in the MF field? You seem to forget that software and digital engineering is at least 50% of the equation in the design of a modern day camera, something that Leica is a relative newbie at.



    This is as simplistic a comment as what was taught to your sister about the store, I very much doubt that Leica wants anyone to walk away from the S2. If they're having difficulty convincing experienced MF shooters is because they dropped the ball somewhere...
    Dave, try being a bit less rude next time. I have no idea who you are or what bothers you....but don't insult me...I didn't do anything to you

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Huh? What is the ZD a good example of? A DSLR? An MF camera? I think it isn't a good example of anything in this context.
    Why not, it was the first of this kind of camera and at a realistic price to entice the dslr user, yet it failed...

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I am not sure why you think that most DSLR users need to switch for Leica to make money. A few would do it, and I am sure that they can pull this off.
    A manufacturer needs sustained sales to survive, a burst of a few sales at introduction wont do them any good if they can't maintain it. We get back to the same thing that MF puts limitations and demands on the shooter 35mm doesn't. The novelty can soon wear off once the shooter realizes that he/she isn't ready or equipped to handle MF.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    There are many pros who ditched their MF gear and are using Canons and Nikons simply because the MF is too slow, too crashy or too inflexible. The S2 revises this formula a bit, and for those users who it makes a difference to, the price isn't a real obstacle.
    We must be living in parallel universes Carsten since I haven't seen what, if anything the S2 has revised. Take a close look at what kind of deals Phase and Hasselblad are offering right now, do think that they'd be doing this if money wasn't an obstacle? Please lets not forget that this forum is somewhat elitist, there are very, very few people who actually need 40mp, 50mp or 60mp MF system? IMO the real news is Mamiya DM22 & DM28 systems and not the S2. These are proven systems with a complete range of lenses and a clear upgrade path for the future, and great pricing to boot. Leica hasn't addressed any of these issues and simply relied to hype and blind adoration of its brand. So please tell what have they managed to redefine?
    Last edited by ddk; 26th November 2009 at 11:15.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Easy guys, let's keep it civil. And let's not assume every dissenting comment is an insult.
    Jack
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  49. #99
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Guys,

    I have a few comments here. I think that my company and our reputation speaks for itself on this forum. We are not fanboys or have "obsessions" about gear. We try to educate ourselves first so that we can support and speak intelligently about the products in the marketplace, whether we sell it or not. Some know that we recently picked up the Leica line. This is highly unusual for us to have a line that we are not the experts on. This we admit upfront. I began in the LF world 20+ years ago and moved steadily into the MF world. Leica was not on my radar and never has been until now. With the introduction of the S2, it has spurred our interest as this product has the potential to be a crossover product into our commercial field. This significance is easily apparent.

    With this said, we are experts in the field of high end digital capture. We are not a "jack of all trades" company. We do one thing and do it better than anyone else. And I strongly believe that I have assembled the best people in our industry as a part of the Capture Integration team. A company IS the people that represent it. Steve, Chris, Doug, and Karen are just stellar people and I am privileged to be associated with them. I apologize for this plug but I think that it is important to state where I am coming from before the rest of this post.

    On Thursday, we will have a Leica Open house in my Miami office. Myself, Douglas, Chritian, Justin, and Roland will be there to answer your questions on anything Leica. We will have the S2 and the M9 for "real world" tests. We will have the usual models and refreshments but the signifiant part of this is that we will also have all of the following equipment:

    Phase One P40+ and AF body
    Phase One P65+ and DF body
    Leaf Aptus II 10
    Hasselblad H3DII 50

    These are not borrowed pieces of gear. I own them. We use them. We know them.

    Do you want to run a test? Do you want to leave with Raws? No smoke and mirrors, no agendas ,and no BS.

    If you are in the area and would like to attend then we will love to see or meet you. If you would like to see any specific tests, please let me know and we will conduct them. Here is all the pertinent info:

    http://www.captureintegration.com/20...eica-test-day/

    Secondly, I hear a lot of questions being asked about the latest promotions from Phase One and their upgrade paths. If you would like any more specific info you can either click this link or contact me directly.

    http://www.captureintegration.com/20...s-of-the-year/

    Again, I apologize if this comes off as a sales presentation post. I honestly do not mean it to be. I just wanted to let those who are interested in an unbiased presentation of all the high end products know that there is a place where that can happen.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all the Americans and Happy Thursday to everyone else!

    Dave Gallagher (e-mail Me)
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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    ... I think that the people that will CHOOSE to buy the S2 over other systems will mostly do so because of the lenses.
    If I were in the market for a MF system the lenses would be a big draw but form factor, handling and overall field usability would be at least as important to me. Combine the lenses, a bigger-than-35mm sensor and dSLR handling, and I get excited. Throw in weather seals and the pelican photo, and I get impatient for that 350mm APO-Elmar-S to hit the market.

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