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Thread: S2 in the "Real World"

  1. #101
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    We must be living in parallel universes Carsten since I haven't seen what, if anything the S2 has revised. Take a close look at what kind of deals Phase and Hasselblad are offering right now, do think that they'd be doing this if money wasn't an obstacle? Please lets not forget that this forum is somewhat elitist, there are very, very few people who actually need 40mp, 50mp or 60mp MF system? IMO the real news is Mamiya DM22 & DM28 systems and not the S2. These are proven systems with a complete range of lenses and a clear upgrade path for the future, and great pricing to boot. Leica hasn't addressed any of these issues and simply relied to hype and blind adoration of its brand. So please tell what have they managed to redefine?
    Just to name a few things revised:

    - Easy, intuitive operation (no PhD required)
    - Totally weather sealed (at our studio event I poured entire cups of water all over the S2 - several times, actually)
    - Faster glass (f/2.5) that is actually sharp into the corners wide-open, with no vignetting (and not needing s/w correction)
    - Much, much faster image processing (instant zoom, scrolling, etc)
    - Bright, large, high-res LCD vs. any other MF system (easy to see outside and easy to gauge sharpness)
    - Great color out of the box (even without profiles) and already works with a wide range of software
    - A full pound less weight (with standard lens and battery)
    - The same size as a 5D with image quality at least as good as any 39/40MP system
    - Nicer viewfinder that makes manual focus easy (without a 3x loupe)
    - Long, long battery life (over 1000 shots or >70GB of RAW files)
    - Dual memory cards with mirroring for extra security
    - First MF to offer FP sync up to 1/4000th with hot shoe flash
    - Lowest mirror vibration and best overall dampening of shutter (check out at Mark Gowin's shot of Greek restaurant interior - 1/3rd of a sec, propped up with napkin-wrapped silverware on a 4-top table)


    Did I leave anything out?

    I think David K summed it up nicely when he said, "The S2 gives image quality as good as my Hy6 with my best lens, with less post processing work, in a size I'd actually want to carry."

    Don't take my word for it. The best way to see the difference is to try it for yourself, especially next to other MF systems.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  2. #102
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    Dave, try being a bit less rude next time. I have no idea who you are or what bothers you....but don't insult me...I didn't do anything to you
    I'm sorry if you're insulted Mike, I really don't see what was rude or insulting in what I wrote, I just disagreed with your analysis and that of your sister's teacher.

  3. #103
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Just to name a few things revised:

    - Easy, intuitive operation (no PhD required)
    Didn't realize that clicking a back on a camera required a Phd!

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - Totally weather sealed (at our studio event I poured entire cups of water all over the S2 - several times, actually)
    Great and Phase cooked their back in a Microwave oven and then froze it!

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - Faster glass (f/2.5) that is actually sharp into the corners wide-open, with no vignetting (and not needing s/w correction)
    Please, the lens card doesn't wash for now, specially since there's hardly a line up. This is something that we're hoping to see in the future, but not there yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - Much, much faster image processing (instant zoom, scrolling, etc)
    Compared to what? Claimed 1.5 images/sec or realistic 1/sec speeds which slows down considerably after the first 8 or 9 frames and a buffer that fills up and comes to a halt after 14-15 shots as opposed to Leaf backs that shoot at very similar frame rates continuously and never hit a buffer wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - Bright, large, high-res LCD vs. any other MF system (easy to see outside and easy to gauge sharpness)
    Nothing new or special here and you're only judging sharpness from some kind of jpg. which can be inaccurate, Leaf already has larger screens and you can judge sharpness from the actual raw file!

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - Great color out of the box (even without profiles) and already works with a wide range of software
    Please, the same range of generic software is available to every other manufacturer too, only the others managed their own dedicated software too.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - A full pound less weight (with standard lens and battery)
    With what lens combo and compared to what body, lens, back combo? And so what anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - The same size as a 5D with image quality at least as good as any 39/40MP system
    That's exactly what's in question as of now, the IQ hasn't been established yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - Nicer viewfinder that makes manual focus easy (without a 3x loupe)
    Matter of opinion and the lenses do lack feel for manual focusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - Long, long battery life (over 1000 shots or >70GB of RAW files)
    Maybe, again I don't see it redefining a class of products.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - Dual memory cards with mirroring for extra security
    25k for basic body!

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - First MF to offer FP sync up to 1/4000th with hot shoe flash
    I'll give it that though not unique any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    - Lowest mirror vibration and best overall dampening of shutter (check out at Mark Gowin's shot of Greek restaurant interior - 1/3rd of a sec, propped up with napkin-wrapped silverware on a 4-top table)
    I wish you didn't bring this up, besides your beer shot not a single file from Mark's lot was in focus, I downloaded all of them!

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Did I leave anything out?
    Unfortunately things like plans or ways for future upgradability, incomplete lens line up, lack of ability to use lenses from other manufacturers with simple adaptors, as of yet no software with any decent profiles, very high pricing, no MF track record, poor availability, shall I continue? Honestly what is the real tangible incentive for anyone invested other systems or even starting with MF is offered here besides the promise of a red dot?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I think David K summed it up nicely when he said, "The S2 gives image quality as good as my Hy6 with my best lens, with less post processing work, in a size I'd actually want to carry."
    I guess David K is more of a diplomat that I am!

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Don't take my word for it. The best way to see the difference is to try it for yourself, especially next to other MF systems.

    David
    Yes, we're all excited about the prospect of a new MF system and many, including me, are hoping that the S2 will be a great product with the support equal or even better than Phase/Leaf, Mamiya and Hasselblad, and I will try it again when I can but for now, its just not there, at least for me.

  4. #104
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Just to name a few things revised:

    - Easy, intuitive operation (no PhD required)
    - Totally weather sealed (at our studio event I poured entire cups of water all over the S2 - several times, actually)
    - Faster glass (f/2.5) that is actually sharp into the corners wide-open, with no vignetting (and not needing s/w correction)
    - Much, much faster image processing (instant zoom, scrolling, etc)
    - Bright, large, high-res LCD vs. any other MF system (easy to see outside and easy to gauge sharpness)
    - Great color out of the box (even without profiles) and already works with a wide range of software
    - A full pound less weight (with standard lens and battery)
    - The same size as a 5D with image quality at least as good as any 39/40MP system
    - Nicer viewfinder that makes manual focus easy (without a 3x loupe)
    - Long, long battery life (over 1000 shots or >70GB of RAW files)
    - Dual memory cards with mirroring for extra security
    - First MF to offer FP sync up to 1/4000th with hot shoe flash
    - Lowest mirror vibration and best overall dampening of shutter (check out at Mark Gowin's shot of Greek restaurant interior - 1/3rd of a sec, propped up with napkin-wrapped silverware on a 4-top table)


    Did I leave anything out?

    I think David K summed it up nicely when he said, "The S2 gives image quality as good as my Hy6 with my best lens, with less post processing work, in a size I'd actually want to carry."

    Don't take my word for it. The best way to see the difference is to try it for yourself, especially next to other MF systems.

    David
    David your enthusiasm and loyalty are commendable but I honestly believe that you should clock up some real mileage with certain MF systems before you throw these statements into the air since almost all of them are yet to be proven and are fairly questionable from the little evidence existing so far.

    Happy thanksgiving to everyone states side

    yair

  5. #105
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Just to name a few things revised:

    - Easy, intuitive operation (no PhD required)
    - Totally weather sealed (at our studio event I poured entire cups of water all over the S2 - several times, actually)
    - Faster glass (f/2.5) that is actually sharp into the corners wide-open, with no vignetting (and not needing s/w correction)
    - Much, much faster image processing (instant zoom, scrolling, etc)
    - Bright, large, high-res LCD vs. any other MF system (easy to see outside and easy to gauge sharpness)
    - Great color out of the box (even without profiles) and already works with a wide range of software
    - A full pound less weight (with standard lens and battery)
    - The same size as a 5D with image quality at least as good as any 39/40MP system
    - Nicer viewfinder that makes manual focus easy (without a 3x loupe)
    - Long, long battery life (over 1000 shots or >70GB of RAW files)
    - Dual memory cards with mirroring for extra security
    - First MF to offer FP sync up to 1/4000th with hot shoe flash
    - Lowest mirror vibration and best overall dampening of shutter (check out at Mark Gowin's shot of Greek restaurant interior - 1/3rd of a sec, propped up with napkin-wrapped silverware on a 4-top table)


    Did I leave anything out?

    I think David K summed it up nicely when he said, "The S2 gives image quality as good as my Hy6 with my best lens, with less post processing work, in a size I'd actually want to carry."

    Don't take my word for it. The best way to see the difference is to try it for yourself, especially next to other MF systems.

    David
    David,
    the best lens for the Hy6 is f2.0 not 2.5 and I believe the weight isnt really that much heavier than the S2, specially if you keep in mind that the Hy6 includes the grip allready.
    What I do like is that I can use either a WLF or a 45 or a 90 gegree finder o the Hy6. And that one can use the back either on the Hy6 or the Artec.
    So yes, the S2 is weather sealed and a little more compact than other MF-systems, but therefore its less flexible. Depends on the needs.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Ok, designed in Sweden, but manufactured in Japan, so not exactly what I want to see, but I agree, this is maybe the best way to survive economically today.

    BTW - I heard that Hasselblad is actually owned by a Chinese company (family/imperium) - is that true?

    Not that his is bad at all, I just ask myself then how constant and predictible the Hasselblad future will look like long term.
    Seriously? Building material in Japan is anything but economical. There is no cheap labour for hand made products, shipping isn't cheap (bear in mind the electronic shutters are shipped from Sweden to Japan before the lenses make their way back again).

    As for quality control, spend some time in Japan and you will have some kind of perspective on how finite the Japanese culture is on not accepting anything but the best. Sometimes, this can be painful but it has its benefits.

    Also any global company such as Leica, Us, Canon, Nikon etc etc, has suppliers from all over the world. It is just the way it is these days. Leica is no different by having manufacture in Portugal, for example.

    This is not a criticism either, simple global economics which effects all of us. Flip your MacBook/MBP/iMac/Mac over and you will see made in China, doesn't mean to say it is a low quality product.

    Hasselblad is owned by the Shriro group. Headquartered in Hong Kong, with offices in 16 countries, 3500 employees. Mark Shriro (sole proprietor), is from Canada.

    Strong links to the photographic trade with Linhof, Pentax, Zeiss, Broncolor, Profoto... etc etc. http://www.shriro.com/

    Our current Chairman Larry Hansen was once CEO of Zeiss Asia Pacific.

    Anyway, this is a Leica thread and I have no wish to hijack it already more than I have done.

    Best,


    David.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    I wish you didn't bring this up, besides your beer shot not a single file from Mark's lot was in focus, I downloaded all of them!
    You are kidding right? If not, then I would love to see your definition of "in focus".

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Easy, intuitive operation (no PhD required)
    easier than, say, a Contax with a Phase Back? Never...

    Totally weather sealed
    who really cares? There are reports about boat trips (and the like) with Contax and though they are not weather sealed they don't stop working. Unless you are working in really extreme conditions I think the most cameras/lenses/backs don't make any trouble.

    Faster glass (f/2.5) that is actually sharp into the corners wide-open, with no vignetting (and not needing s/w correction)
    faster compared to which system?
    As to sharpness in the corners and vignetting: show us!

    Much, much faster image processing (instant zoom, scrolling, etc)
    any real world comparisions?

    great color out of the box (even without profiles)
    are you kidding? There is no color without a profile (at least no color that could be displayed).

    already works with a wide range of software
    which camera does not?

    image quality at least as good as any 39/40MP system
    any real world comparisions?
    Of course with 37MP it should be compareable to the 39/40 MP backs (at least regarding resolution) - anything else would be a real disappointment, especially if you consider the high prices for the lenses.
    But Leica claimed with the "superior" glass of the S2 it will be on the level of the H3D50. By now I doubt it seriously.
    Too, conventional lenses are quite sharp even at the edges when used in conjunction with a 1.3-crop back. Some of them are just a bit weak wide open at the edges with crop 1.1 or fullframe backs.
    The most interessting comparision here (IMO) is the P40+ with the Phase 80mm and the S2 with the 70mm both wide open. I do not expect any essential differences. I'm quite sure Doug will tell us...

    Nicer viewfinder that makes manual focus easy
    split image screen available? User exchangeable? What about a WLF? Even without holding the S2 in my hands I can tell you that the WLF on the Contax is "nicer". Much "nicer"!
    I also never heard someone moaning about the Hasselblad finders - quite the contrary. So ... "nicer" than the viewfinder of the 5D2 or what?

    Did I leave anything out?
    - when will they ship the announced T/S lens and will it remain just one?
    - How will they handle color shift and especially vignetting of a really wide T/S lens in conjunction with a (offset-) microlenses sensor?
    - Will they provide Leica-made input profiles or will they leave that to Adobe?
    - Will they produce a Lightroom plugin to correct moire?
    (BTW: they claimed - I am refering to one of your articles - that they didn't found any moire. Now, even before the release of the camera, the first "real" users found moire quite easy. There's absolutely nothing wrong with moire, quite the contrary. But how do they test the camera? Who is actually testing it? And how profound are their statements and anouncements?)
    - you left out the customizable settings that can be stored on a CF card and transfered to another body. That's quite a nice feature IMO.

  9. #109
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    David,

    Normally, I would ignore a comment like this or just pass it off as agreeing to disagree, and wouldn't bother responding. But, in this case, I do believe that pointing out the facts is important. You had asked what the S2 brought to the MF arena and I had responded.

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Didn't realize that clicking a back on a camera required a Phd!
    Perhaps the PhD comment was a bit over the top. The point that I was trying to make is that just about anyone can pick up the S2 and be familiar with 90+% of its features, functions, and menus within 15 minutes or less. I know that with other existing MFD systems, many dealers will charge an "installation fee" to come in and show you how to use your camera.

    The S2 menus are logical and clear. Being an integrated system, you never have to wonder if the setting is on the camera body or the back. Everything just makes sense. My overall point is that it is intuitive. I've personally demoed the S2 to over 30 people one-on-one and almost every single one of them expressed this opinion to me. Many of these people are current owners of other MFD systems. This real feedback, as well as my personal experience, is what leads me to make this statement.

    Great and Phase cooked their back in a Microwave oven and then froze it!
    Surely the Phase videos are impressive, but I think the point is that you are far more likely to get caught in a rainstorm than stuck in a microwave. It is also interesting to note that the demonstration was done with dry ice (no moisture) and not including the camera body or lenses, which probably wouldn't have survived to shoot afterward.

    I have personally gotten rained on and done a shoot on the beach, inches from the surf with the S2. Water just isn't a problem for the S2. I've talked to a lot of fashion shooters on this coast and in LA who won't even consider taking their H3Ds to the beach, instead opting to use a Canon or Nikon.

    Please, the lens card doesn't wash for now, specially since there's hardly a line up. This is something that we're hoping to see in the future, but not there yet.
    Agree that there need to be more lenses. This will come. Unlike the MFDB companies, Leica is an optics company who designs and manufactures its own lenses. These are entirely new designs, created specifically for the 30x45mm format, and specifically for digital capture. Leica currently has 22 lenses in M line, most of which were introduced less than ten years ago. It's hard to doubt Leica's ability to make stellar optics and push the bounds of what is possible.

    If we go purely by the MTFs, the S lenses are capable of resolving 40lp/mm at over 80% contrast, wide-open. Leica has always been extremely accurate in this regard.

    I'm not sure that maximum aperture can be refuted. I've shot with the 120mm f/2.5 Macro. It is extremely sharp and a stop and a half faster than any existing MF macro lens. The 35mm f/2.5 is also a full stop faster with a maximum distortion of 1.7% at close focus.

    Compared to what? Claimed 1.5 images/sec or realistic 1/sec speeds which slows down considerably after the first 8 or 9 frames and a buffer that fills up and comes to a halt after 14-15 shots as opposed to Leaf backs that shoot at very similar frame rates continuously and never hit a buffer wall?
    I wasn't actually referring to fps here. I was referring to the speed of image review, zoom 1:1 speed, and scrolling around images. I've experienced the little spinning leaf icon when zooming in on Leaf backs, the pixelization on the H3DII, the progress bar on the Sinar, etc. The Leica is seemingly instantaneous.

    Since you bring up the fps, upon rechecking the Leaf specs, the Aptus II fps range from 0.9 to 1.1. So, 1.5 fps on the S2 is roughly 50% faster. In actual use, the S2 really is 1.5 fps.

    Nothing new or special here and you're only judging sharpness from some kind of jpg. which can be inaccurate, Leaf already has larger screens and you can judge sharpness from the actual raw file!
    Yes, the Leaf has a 3.5" screen. What is the resolution, though? The S2 has a 460K pixel 3" screen. Compare this to the H3DII's 3" LCD at 230K or Phase One's 2.2" 230K LCD. Also, the S2 LCD doesn't wash out in daylight.

    Please, the same range of generic software is available to every other manufacturer too, only the others managed their own dedicated software too.
    You need to convert some back's proprietary RAW files in dedicated s/w before using "generic software". This is an extra step. If you put a Phase file directly into LR, you get center-folding. Sinar files have to be brought into eXposure to convert to DNG before being viewable. And, the often-necessary lens corrections become unavailable outside of dedicated s/w. This leaves many with a dual program workflow. For some users this is acceptable, and for others it's a hassle.

    With what lens combo and compared to what body, lens, back combo? And so what anyway?
    I was comparing the S2 with 70mm to both the H3DII-39 with 80mm and the 645DF with 80mm D lens. For many photographers I've spoken to, as well for myself, a pound (0.5kg) is a big deal.

    That's exactly what's in question as of now, the IQ hasn't been established yet.
    There are more and more samples coming out as more photographers are getting a chance to shoot with the camera. Leica's goal of late has been to get the camera into the hands of as many top, working professionals who's work demands the quality of medium format. Personally, I've worked with several such professionals as well as demanding advanced amateurs, some of whom are on this forum.

    Matter of opinion and the lenses do lack feel for manual focusing.
    Another comment I've been hearing lately has been how nice the MF feel is on the S lenses. Two pros I just worked with prefer to manually focus. Both of them felt the S2 provided the best MF feel and viewfinder they had seen to date. One of these pros currently uses Phase backs on the H system, as well as Canon 1DsIII and was literally exclaiming his love for the viewfinder and ease of focus in the midst of his shoot.

    Maybe, again I don't see it redefining a class of products.
    Having battery life that is literally 4-5x as long as current MFDB systems is a pretty big step. Being able to shoot all day on a single battery. Some may not need this level of battery performance, but again, based on pro feedback, this is a really big deal.

    25k for basic body!
    Actually it is $22,995 USD. What is the price for a 645DF/P40+? I think it is pretty close actually. Older backs by other manufactures do represent a great value.

    I'll give it that though not unique any longer.
    What other medium format system can sync at 1/4000th?

    I wish you didn't bring this up, besides your beer shot not a single file from Mark's lot was in focus, I downloaded all of them!
    Are we looking at the same files? I haven't read this feedback from anybody else.

    Unfortunately things like plans or ways for future upgradability, incomplete lens line up, lack of ability to use lenses from other manufacturers with simple adaptors, as of yet no software with any decent profiles, very high pricing, no MF track record, poor availability, shall I continue? Honestly what is the real tangible incentive for anyone invested other systems or even starting with MF is offered here besides the promise of a red dot?
    Just like DSLRs, the upgradability is a new body. The old body can be kept as a backup, sold, or traded in for a new one.

    Leica has stated that they will not limit any company from creating adapters for the S system.

    When the camera ships in a few weeks, there will be a final profile in LR. For now, the default rendering in both LR and C1 are very good considering there is no profile. Also, with a Colorchecker Passport, one can easily and quickly make a DCR profile. I plan to make an ICC camera profile for C1 as well, using the EyeOne XT system.

    Why don't we judge availability once the camera starts shipping?

    The bottom line is that many photographers who are happy and satisfied with their existing MFD systems won't find a reason to switch. Current backs, despite modular upgrade paths, have dropped significantly in value. The manufacturers have done an excellent job of devaluing used equipment based on aggressive price wars. As I have always believed, if you are happy with what you have, then stay with what you have. There will be many, though, that do see the S2 as a revolutionary tool and are willing to make the switch. They are not doing this because I told them to, or they have been tricked somehow. It is because they see the value in doing so.

    I guess David K is more of a diplomat that I am!
    While David K is quite well-spoken and articulate, he always speaks his mind. He wouldn't have made this comment if he didn't mean it. It has nothing to do with diplomacy, but rather actually having tried out the S2 against his existing Sinar system.

    Yes, we're all excited about the prospect of a new MF system and many, including me, are hoping that the S2 will be a great product with the support equal or even better than Phase/Leaf, Mamiya and Hasselblad, and I will try it again when I can but for now, its just not there, at least for me.
    Yes. Admittedly I am excited about the S2. The statements that I've presented about the camera aren't "marketing hype," results of my enthusiasm, or made because I lack experience with other MFD systems. I have presented facts as well as feedback from real professional photographers.

    Respectfully,

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I agree with David

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I agree with David
    Which one? Or.. yourself?


    Kidding aside, and back onto the subject, well i don't know but there's something a bit surprising from the available S2 files... there's a kinda clinical quality to them.

    Maybe it's simply related to the "first test samples" exercise which understandably lead most photographers to go for technical oriented shots designed to stress out sharpness, noise etc performance...

    But still, it's surprising (and potentially disappointing for some and for now) to see it as a common trait from all sources, even from such photographers like Marc whose style is well known but to say the truth his usual artistic mastery is indiscernable here.

    Some people with limited education in MF (like myself, on the operation side, though not on the processing and handling of such files) might take this as a possible design bias of the S series, voluntarily or not, parting with the usual Leica touch and feel.

    Of course upgraded profiles and such are still to come, but beside pure IQ, resolution, colour rendition etc., the point above was -for some- unexpected.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    I'll try and explain one more time.

    There are lots of great camera systems and lots of great lens choices. I think that the people that will CHOOSE to buy the S2 over other systems will mostly do so because of the lenses. I'm definitely not saying one is better than the other. Hasselblad, Mamiya, Zeiss, Schneider, Rodenstock etc...all of those are great lenses. Canon and Nikon make great lenses too. The only thing I'm saying is that the final motivation for a person to put down serious money on the S2 is probably going to come down to a preference for the lenses. Just about everything that the S2 does can be done by another system equally well or better. The only thing that truly makes the S2 different from other systems is the lenses. That doesn't mean they're better. It just means that it's different and offers one more choice. That's all.
    Understood.

    And while I do agree, it usually comes down to the lenses, I think that is a holdover from 35mm where the differences were quite marked and to some degree still are. The technical differences between many of these modern MFD lenses are getting harder and harder to determine ... especially with software corrections at play in the mix. Most of it is technical minutia ... so, IMO the final determining factor is "character" .... how the lens draws, what the focus fall off looks like, what does the Bokeh look like ... does it produce a feeling of depth or 3D? What is the color character like?

    In simple terms, the aesthetics of the lens performance to the creative eye.

    I think that is what we are looking for here ... to get a better feeling for those creative attributes in these S2 optics that add something beyond the technical statistics. I believe in the end that is what will determine that preference you speak of.

    So far, I can't personally place it ... which doesn't mean it isn't there ... I just can't grasp it yet.

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    ...

    What other medium format system can sync at 1/4000th?

    ...
    David, FP sync for top-camera flash is one thing, sync with studio strobes a completely different one. Phase with the new LS has 1/800 (1/1600 with P40+, P65+ backs), Hassy has 1/800, Leica has 1/500 with LS if I am not wrong. With focal plane shutter, both Leica & Phase have 1/125.

    All in all, for me FP's importance is very little compared to studio strobes'; so I'd give the flash advantage to Phase & Hassy first (with Hassy leading if one needs that syncro speed today, Phase's LS lenses being due soon but not there yet), then Leica. Of course, different requirements for different folks, so I am sure FP at 1/4000 will have lots of takers
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Huh? What is the ZD a good example of? A DSLR? An MF camera? I think it isn't a good example of anything in this context.

    I am not sure why you think that most DSLR users need to switch for Leica to make money. A few would do it, and I am sure that they can pull this off. There are many pros who ditched their MF gear and are using Canons and Nikons simply because the MF is too slow, too crashy or too inflexible. The S2 revises this formula a bit, and for those users who it makes a difference to, the price isn't a real obstacle.

    ---

    Boy, is everyone on the warpath again or what? What is going on here? Marc, I just said that Sweden is not in Japan and that the Hasselblad lenses ("our 'Glass'") are made in Japan. I think that isn't pushing it too far. I was not insinuating anything.
    No warpath ... it wasn't clear in your post that you were referencing just the lenses ... I thought the post you were answering was talking about the whole system.

    Part of this confusion is that the posts get separated to far apart and the answer is sometimes so far away from the question that I can't tell what the heck is was referring to

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Dear David,

    Thank you for engaging in the dialogue, I think that we've both put our arguments forward so not much point in going back and forth , I'm ready to be surprised!

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    David,
    Normally, I would ignore a comment like this or just pass it off as agreeing to disagree, and wouldn't bother responding. But, in this case, I do believe that pointing out the facts is important. You had asked what the S2 brought to the MF arena and I had responded.
    Respectfully,
    David

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Marc, in my case, it was the previous post, I am pretty sure

    Btw, looking back, the warpath comment wasn't directed at you, but the thread in general. I was a little unclear there.
    Last edited by carstenw; 26th November 2009 at 17:16.
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I agree with David
    Me too!

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Corlan F. View Post
    Which one? Or.. yourself?


    Kidding aside, and back onto the subject, well i don't know but there's something a bit surprising from the available S2 files... there's a kinda clinical quality to them.

    Maybe it's simply related to the "first test samples" exercise which understandably lead most photographers to go for technical oriented shots designed to stress out sharpness, noise etc performance...

    But still, it's surprising (and potentially disappointing for some and for now) to see it as a common trait from all sources, even from such photographers like Marc whose style is well known but to say the truth his usual artistic mastery is indiscernable here.

    Some people with limited education in MF (like myself, on the operation side, though not on the processing and handling of such files) might take this as a possible design bias of the S series, voluntarily or not, parting with the usual Leica touch and feel.

    Of course upgraded profiles and such are still to come, but beside pure IQ, resolution, colour rendition etc., the point above was -for some- unexpected.
    I think the first part of your post is often the case. I usually just try to determine if a new camera can handle the conditions I shoot in. Since I shoot mostly candid work where something is actually happening, it then depends on whether something is happening during the scheduled time I have the test camera to use ... (not to mention that I was on vacation, not working ).

    We actually had a model that was going to wear a wedding dress, but she got a paying gig right at the last minute ... so we ended up shooting snap shots where basically nothing much interesting was happening, and the light wasn't all that great. Not a total loss though, sometimes I have to shoot in challenging light and it's good to know how a camera handles it.

    Jury is still out in terms of what the character of these lenses is like, and what they may bring to the creative party.

    If it was obvious, I'd be on board. But for now it isn't obvious.

    When I started using the Sony A900, it was for the lenses and why was immediately apparent to my eye ... it was the feeling of depth and 3D effect ... like this wedding shot I just happen to be working on right now (hopefully a little jpg can convey how the ice cream scoop literally pops off the cluttered background to the point you'd swear you could tilt your head and see behind it.) To be clear, I'm NOT comparing the Sony to the S2, just talking about character type things for sake of discussion.

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    You are kidding right? If not, then I would love to see your definition of "in focus".
    Sorry Mark, I wasn't kidding...

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Man, why does Leica always bring out the worst in people?
    These threads are rampant on LUF and I thought not a part of things here. I'll no longer read anything to do with the S2 until the thing is actually released as to avoid all the pre-release moaning and goings on...

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Folks,

    sorry to say but valuations of files like "clinical quality" etc etc are something really showing - let me try to say this friendly - esoteric and artificial approach to digital image processing - I could have said in much more harsh words

    What is the real bad thing about the S2? Why do so many people get upset about this new system? Why does the red dot make people turn a switch in their brain and suddenly measure all and everything differently?

    I like what the S2 produces so far. I also like the size and design philosophy behind this system and its flexibility. I like the Leica lenses - admittedly not knowing the S lenses but I am sure they will be outstanding.

    Will you be able to produce better images compared to a different MF system? I dare to say no! It always will depend on the photographer to 80% and the camera to 20%.

    Now WRT features like fast flash sync times - there are many situations which need this (photographers think they need this), but there are much more situations where you do NOT need it. And arranging your shoot accordingly makes this in many case unnecessary. So as you already can tell from my writing, I will almost never use and need it for what I do. So I could not care less about the shortest sync times etc etc.

    But what I really care is easy handling, easy carrying and logical operation of the system - and the S system promises this.

    There is one small issue and this is availability - camera and lenses. I really hope that Leica will be able to make this system available asap, because otherwise they will lose potential buyers, the ones who need a system in the next few months and cannot buy the S2 and some decent lens line up.

    My 2c

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Well My guess it that we won't see a broader Lens line up till Photokina 2010. I mean not talking about lens specs or showing them around at presentations, I mean SHIPPING larger quantities.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Well My guess it that we won't see a broader Lens line up till Photokina 2010. I mean not talking about lens specs or showing them around at presentations, I mean SHIPPING larger quantities.
    My fears too

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    BTW - I heard that Hasselblad is actually owned by a Chinese company (family/imperium) - is that true?

    Not that this is bad at all, I just ask myself then how constant and predictible the Hasselblad future will look like long term.
    Hmmmm, interesting thought. In the long term.....Saab may be dead and gone, Volvo may be owned by the Chinese auto company Gilley and for my money....many Japanese products are the equal and in many cases superior to those made anywhere else in the world. The Koreans, Chinese, etc are not far behind in many areas. I don't believe there is any objective reason why the people and companies in these countries cannot design and build products the equal of anything made in Germany, Sweden, the United States or anywhere else in the world for that matter.

    Face it folks, quality design and manufacturing is not and will not be the exclusive realm of Europe or the United States in the 21st century.....though many people will probably continue to believe so....and pay a premium in the markeplace for those products.

    As always.....just my opinion.

    Gary
    The owner of 3 Hasselblad cameras, 10 Zeiss lenses, a Leica R8 an 4 R lenses.....so I'm happily "invested" in Sweden and Germany too.
    Last edited by bensonga; 26th November 2009 at 23:21.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Hasselblad is owned by a Chinese Company called Shriro. I think they payed for the deal to buy Imacon - which was a good and wise move. I don't think we see any major chinese sourcing in their equipment, either.
    But they fired & outsourced most employees, from over 400 skilled craftsmen manufacturing the legendary Hassselblad-quality in Göteborg to 60-70 people, most likely some R&D and assembly work. The cooperation with Fuji was started long before with the XPan.
    Are they willing to invest several millions for the next big step (whatever that may by, an EVIL-large-sensor-system, CMOS-based technology?) - that remains the question.

    Phase One seems to be owned by a Family which is willing to reinvest, that makes it easer for them the make long-sighted decisions.

    @bensonga
    You've never seen low and high-tech manufacturing in the US, Germany, China, have you?
    Don't worry, I'm sure you are a specialist in your own field which I know nothing about (or even worse: I think I know something about it...) and many people outside production-engineering and craftsmenship have trouble understanding the differences in production (ESPECIALLY in the 21st century).

    Let's just say:
    You can manufacture "Made in Germany"-quality in China, all you have to do is to adapt the standards (control, social, safety, education, environment...) - after a few decades you will end up with high-quality, for exactly the same price as in Germany...
    Right now, the standards are horrible, their production methods are similar to the 19th century "Manufakturen" of early industrialism in Europe - workers can be exchanged, no craftsmen, no education, cheap, stable, manual processes and they just duplicate the know-how that foreign companies give to them with their "international production-network". This system is common, usually they have their HQ with their "root-fab" (in German it's called "Stammwerk" - I don't know a proper translation) in which they manufacture reference, new and innovative products. Once the well educated workers (that takes over 3 years in Germany - most people in Solms are not "trained-on-the-job"!) solved most production problems of this new product they source their know-how to low-wage-countries. That's what the big Japanese consumer-electronics-manufacturers do with China, that's why most "Made in China"-products are similar to the "Made in Japan"-products - it has nothing to do with the real performance (solving problems, being innovative) of a production system/site/philosophy/country.
    Japan has much higher standards than China, and they still have a large consumer electronic industry - that's their advantage over Germany. I hope Leica is able to re-establish a stable supplier-network to manufacture cameras again, right now they have to source from elsewhere (like the Japanese ASIC and the US-american CCD - although all this technology is available in Germany) or have a hard time convincing specialists to manufacture parts for them (most of them work in quality-demanding areas far from consumer-products).

    Yes, from a long-sight perspective the production-location makes a major difference, I think even the mechanical differences of the H-System over the V-system are significant to make this clear (although that's not just production, that's also development which also varies all over the world). I think the H-system would look entirely different if they had kept their craftsmen (they were also responsible for the state-of-the-art housings of Hasselblad-cameras - know-how simply thrown away) and yes, I know how a V looks after 5 years of hard use and how a H looks/feels...
    Just like Canon and Nikon make similar cameras, because their mindsets/mentality is similar - do you think the S2 would handle, look and feel this way if it would have been developed by Pentax, Fuji or Mamiya? Production in Germany becomes important when they develop the S3, because of the tight collaboration with manufacturing it's easier to improve production/design. That's not Japan-engineering vs. German-engineering, it's about having the choice, I think it's a good thing that a quite different MF-system becomes available, although it's not the perfect choice for everybody.
    Last edited by georgl; 27th November 2009 at 01:35.

  26. #126
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Man, why does Leica always bring out the worst in people?
    These threads are rampant on LUF and I thought not a part of things here. I'll no longer read anything to do with the S2 until the thing is actually released as to avoid all the pre-release moaning and goings on...
    Have to agree with you. I feel half the time I am reading a billboard sign, and the other half no one outside of Germany can build anything worth a lick. Than the added bonus is all the BAD or MISSING information I am reading. It's very tiring and counter productive to building friendships here. Frankly I have nothing left to say until the review.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  27. #127
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Folks,

    sorry to say but valuations of files like "clinical quality" etc etc are something really showing - let me try to say this friendly - esoteric and artificial approach to digital image processing - I could have said in much more harsh words
    Don't worry, my skin is thick enough ...after 20 years (just double checked) dealing closely with high resolution digital files including from top photographers, advertising agencies and publishers around the world. I can take it, and more. No problem.

    It's remarkable -though regrettable IMHO- that the Leica S2 subject's so touchy that it seems to bring so readily such ad personam argumentation. There again, no problem.

    I'll point out that my comment was in no way intended as an attack against Leica or the S2 system, just a simple statement of what I and some other people obviously see from what's available now.

    In one word, available samples files are ok. Just, nothing special. For now.

    There's nothing wrong with this, maybe one's expectations for some "Leica magic" are/were too high or even unreasonnable. Well, after all we're talking about a super camera and not some machine tool, so in turn nothing's wrong with that.

    Maybe in a clumsy way, poor choice of words, you name it, i'm not saying anything else than what other posters here -some with undisputable expertise- say otherwise, call it "grab the magic" "3D effect" "mojo" etc.

    (note that far from being judgemental, in my post above i even strongly mitigated my opening comment)

    Which brings to the second part of you post above, which incidentally reflects exactly my thoughts: if with their S system Leica is yet another MF high pixel count solution (which is a good thing) entering PO/Hassy/Leaf territory, and nothing more (again, nothing wrong with that) then what is left is mainly the form factor, a few -certainly useful for some- functionnalities, and the red dot.

    That's perfectly ok.

    All these specificities, form factor, features etc. have been listed and re-listed extensively here and in the other threads, and even though the debate is still open on some of them it's natural that some will perceive them as assets or even breakthroughs for their work, and some won't.

    You simply can't expect everyone to get overly enthustiastic about it.

    No problemo



    P.S. btw it was not put "friendly" and i usually don't even care to address anything which starts with "you don't know what you're talking about" style opening statements -usually not common on this forum btw and that's also why many of us enjoy it- but that's probably to be blamed on the "Leica effect"
    And i'd be more than happy to discuss further about what you feel being a strong misconception in -as you put it- "digital image processing" , but it's obviously not the place nor the right time (the part related to the impact of "digital" in such areas of lens sharpness, 3D rendering, initial colour rendition... carries a lot of promises in itself ).
    And i'm even sure that in a less passionnate environment than a Leica thread we would come to a lot of mutual understanding on these subjects
    Last edited by Corlan F.; 27th November 2009 at 02:14.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Here is where I personally stand concerning the S2 right now: (please forgive my "thinking out loud" ramblings):

    I consider myself an important potential customer for this camera ... not because I'm special, but IMO because Leica and it's dealers have to treat any level of interested photographer dead seriously if the S2 is to succeed in the middle to long term.

    IMO, that success will determine how far the system gets fleshed out to make it a viable professional choice. Leica is a business, and if something upsets the financial apple cart, the S2 could be added to the list of abandoned products ... not just Leica's abandoned products ... just survey the Medium Format landscape in the past few years ... including a so called "revolutionary" bottom-up design like the Hy6 with all new "digital" lenses from a VERY respected and experienced MF optics company.

    The R system and the M system of optics is no guarantee that the (subjective) Leica trademark character will translate to medium format capture. I personally have stopped looking at it that way ... which opens up the mind to something new ... as yet not uniquely defined.

    I also no longer view this as a 35mm DSLR replacement. Others may still see it that way depending on their applications. However, it has enough of those 35mm DSLR attributes to make it interesting.

    If I were to position the S2 against some familiar product category ... I'd leave the adolescent sounding "Tweener" in the dust bin, and think of it as a "Crossover". I'd use the S2 in the same manner I used my H3D-II/31 which bridged the gap between 35mm DSLR and larger sensor 39 meg and up (now 60 meg) capture. The S2 form factor makes this much more appealing ... the price does not.

    IMO, each photographer has to get real about their specific needs ... not a composite list of attributes compiled from 20 other different photographers on a forum.

    At my age, and station in life, the S2 would be a last hurrah. I've retired from my advertising career and now only do photography for pay to supplement semi-retirement. For many, the economy has devastated the commercial photography business (except for those with long standing relationships like those Guy has maintained over the long years of his career). My "default" niche is shooting people in a number of ways ... with an occasional commercial job (but no where the volume I once did).

    Where the commercial photography once totally paid for a MFD system, this would be an out of pocket expense. To me, that probably means offing my H system which is extensive and presents a daunting prospect in this financial market. However, that loss is relative. Since previous commercial "fees" basically paid for most of the MFD gear, it's more phycological than anything. Yet, the promo deals from both Hasselblad and Phase One DOES give one pause.

    As to becoming outdated and in need of upgrading, I'll most likely become "outdated" before the S2 will. I know enough about this stuff to know that this level of IQ won't become an Albatross around most anyone's neck if they buy into it. Even if I did think in terms of upgrading down the road (and shooting from my wheelchair), it's no different from upgrading a H camera which is integrated and also means a total swap out of camera and back. The difference is that the other MF companies acknowledge an upgrade path which is an unknown and unspoken aspect of the Leica S2. Perhaps less important to me than it may be to others at a different stage of their photo career (Amateur or Pro).

    As far as service is concerned, it's still unclear how one would be treated unless paying the kings ransom for Platinum level consideration. There is no DAG or Golden Touch to ship stuff to fix it after a year is up

    Thanks for listening. Further thoughts or observations?

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Leica can't produce enough M9s to satisfy demand - thats my first thought Marc. I have accumulated a great collection of M glass that does the trick for me in travel and weekend snaps - the S2 isnt going to do a better job ( for me) than my M8/and soon M9 combo will for hand held shooting - and will probably do a worse job in fact - if I need to do an occassional editorial type shoot with lighting - nothing is going to do a much better job than my Hassy ger anyway.

    My second thought is that the S2 will become really interesting when I can buy a full set of lenses. So that gives me at least a year to think about things - and that is a very long time in camera design land.

    My third thought is that the S2 forces me to keep at least one back for my technical camera use - and if I do that why not keep a body and a few lenses and if I do that..well...umm what exactly do I get from the S2 in portable hand held use that the M9 can't cover again? and (lets get real here) for studied work on tripod - the arTec or my Alpa blows everything else out the door over the hill and into the next county...no mirror box to worry about no optical compromises in design - just fantastic glass better than anything Leica makes for the S2 btw -

    Good Luck and best wishes to all the early adopters I really want the S2 to do well in the market - but (this time) I wont be part of the bleeding edge vanguard - maybe wait for an S2.2 in due course - or not..wont make one iota of difference to me and my shooting or fun.

    I dont need 50 or 60 megpixels and I dont need my investment in fun to depreciate by 2/3 p.a anymore - I am totally over the must have this or that gear envy - totally. So Hasselblad wont be getting me to upgrade and no I am not tempted to go back to Phase One either - just call me boring - I am over it all.

    Nothing excites me as much as the M cameras - and to be frank I get more of a kick out of processing B&W than anything else in MF land - they are all the same files - all the same - as in all the same - thats why people arent seeing a special 'Leica' character to the files - because it doesnt exist-

    oh it will exist when someone coughs up the cashola to play and posts their purchase on teh forums oo aaahhh wow - it will have to exist - because umm..well

  30. #130
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    My third thought is that the S2 forces me to keep at least one back for my technical camera use - and if I do that why not keep a body and a few lenses and if I do that..well...umm what exactly do I get from the S2 in portable hand held use that the M9 can't cover again?
    I think that the logic would go that you keep your back for the arTec etc, and after that there is no reason to keep any other body. The S2 over the M9 gets you resolution, of course, as well as macro, tele, and so on. You may not need 50-60MP, but are 18MP enough, always?

    I am totally over the must have this or that gear envy - totally.
    Quoting for truth
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I confess.
    I want one, In fact I want one of everything.
    Now that is off my chest I have only 11 more steps to go.
    -bob

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.

    Could not resist the great offer (camera really 50% discount, although almost new and full Hasselblad guarantee).

    I finally checked how I feel with Phocus this morning, processed some shots and must say, it is pretty good. And as I expect Phocus 2.0 to be even better this became now an area I feel pretty comfortable with. Do not want to compare with C1, but most of the functions I need (use) are there. Will need to change my workflow a bit, but I got used to that as this became a need now at least once a year for me anyway.

    And finally the whole deal allows me to upgrade for a H4D/60 next year for again a very attractive offer - which is the really great news. Will see how I get along with the system and if it is ok for me, then I will shoot a Hasselblad 60MP back in a few months.

    All that does not mean that I stopped being interested in the S System, maybe I will come back to that system in a year or so when there are more options and one can actually buy this camera and some lenses and there are decent profiles floating around. But for that amount of money I am not willing to take the pain of waiting, not knowing when I finally could get one and then have to live through all the child sicknesses which such a new system is poised to have. Well I really need a working MF digital solution by begin of next year!

    As all the offers I got from Phase were not quite near the offer of Hasselblad it made my decision pretty easy sorry for them, but I tried really hard over the last 7-9 months, gave them all the chances but it did not work out - please understand this does not refer to my US friends of Capture Integration, who really were very helpful and friendly, but more to the local reps here in Austria. Hasselblad is light years ahead of them in terms of customer support and this is what finally counts with a very heavy weigth - at least for me!

    Looking forward to get now into the H System
    Last edited by ptomsu; 27th November 2009 at 07:14.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Sorry Mark, I wasn't kidding...
    Thank you for clearing that up. Now I know how to regard your opinion/comments from now on.

  34. #134
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.
    Well, congratulations! Is that an H3DII-39 or really the 1st gen?

    I think you might need something between ultra-wide and portrait
    Carsten - Website

  35. #135
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Well, congratulations! Is that an H3DII-39 or really the 1st gen?

    I think you might need something between ultra-wide and portrait
    Thanks Carsten!

    It is really H3D - I do not care, as it was really 50% off former list price and is almost unused - not sure where they found them

    And as said I a thinking about upgrading to a H4D early next year, so I consider this an interim solution - else I fall so deeply in love that I do not want to miss it anymore. One thing I found about the H3D - it still takes film magazines, so this might be worth considering to keep it - not sure yet.

    WRT lenses, yes I might need something in between, but I am actually thinking to get the HCD 35-90, so that might solve my daily needs in that range. Later I am also looking to get wither a 150 or a 210, or even a 300. But that will come later, first I want to be ready for landscape.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Congrats on the new kit Peter. Looking forward to seeing some images...

  37. #137
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Sorry Mark, I wasn't kidding...
    actually, what I've been seeing in MF is far more the effects of motion blur and maybe even small blur due to noise reduction (need to take that OFF in C1 otherwise is smooths a lot at default.) I dont know about LR
    You say, e.g. the pelican "it's 1/1000s! well yes, also a 180 (ok eq 140) lens and at maybe 4x blow up from the 100% crop, you are close to the margin of a solid shot.
    With 1-2ft DOF these shots certainly do not mis focus, so I assume combination of other effects may smooth out.

    On a monitor you also see 3x again (96-104 ppi instead of 300-400dpi)

    SO, to me shots look in focus but a little soft. I assume minimal sharpening.

    That all said, the Pelican shot is pretty impressive (about 20m away?)
    Not to appologize for it, but my vernerable Contax, you remember the one I borring remind every one of ( ) has AF problens in complex fields.

    Mark, how WAS the AF in general? did it 'hunt' much?

    regards
    Victor

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    Hasselblad is owned by a Chinese Company called Shriro. I think they payed for the deal to buy Imacon - which was a good and wise move. I don't think we see any major chinese sourcing in their equipment, either.
    But they fired & outsourced most employees, from over 400 skilled craftsmen manufacturing the legendary Hassselblad-quality in Göteborg to 60-70 people, most likely some R&D and assembly work...


    ....I think the H-system would look entirely different if they had kept their craftsmen (they were also responsible for the state-of-the-art housings of Hasselblad-cameras - know-how simply thrown away)
    Seriously you drive me bananas. Maybe you missed my posting earlier...

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=106

    I know you like to say 'Chinese company' believing it to be derogatory, which I for one find offensive. It wouldn't matter to me if it was a Chinese company. Fact is Shriro is spread across Asia Pacific, HQ in Hong Kong, and family owned by the Canadian Mark Shriro.

    Also you have no comment on Leica and it's factory in Portugal? Makes no difference to me but you seemed to be particularly offended by anything being made outside Germany?

    The H system was designed starting before yr 2000 before we fired the entire workforce and replaced them with Toyota robots, as you like to put it.

    Truth is (again), that the H camera is built in the same way as the V. Alloy chassis with wrap around steel. No different. Nothing has been 'thrown away'.

    Guy is 100% right with his quote...

    'and the other half no one outside of Germany can build anything worth a lick. Than the added bonus is all the BAD or MISSING information I am reading. It's very tiring and counter productive to building friendships here. Frankly I have nothing left to say until the review.'

    I don't believe Germany is the be all and all of finest manufacturing. For example one of the finest Motorcycle exhaust systems is built in Slovenia, not USA, UK, Japan etc... and not Germany.

    If it wasn't for Guy, I would carry on ranting. This arguing and lack of respect for the facts is tiring, so I will leave with a 'Peace Out Brother'.



    David

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.
    Life is full of suprises. :-)

    Enjoy your new camera.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.
    Have fun with the new system hope it serves you well!

  41. #141
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    Thank you for clearing that up. Now I know how to regard your opinion/comments from now on.
    I'm really sorry if unintentionally I offended you Mark. My usual approach to discussions is to be direct, and I realize that sometimes I come across as aggressive, but I feel that there's more value in frankness than trying to beat around the bush.

    My exchange with David F. was a discussion between a customer and a vendor. I VERY much want to buy the S2 but I'm not yet convinced. What I wrote is exactly what I would mention if I was standing across the counter from him discussing the sale. Your images turned out to be part of that conversation and I replied with how I see them. I regret offending you in the process, but if you allow me, I'll post your images with an explanation of why I see them that way, and if I'm wrong, I'll apologize again and take what I said back.
    Last edited by ddk; 27th November 2009 at 09:59.

  42. #142
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Congrats Peter,
    I think in the end all the MF solutions can deliever great IQ and one can discuss advantages/disadvantages to death - so the most important step IMO is to make one day a decision and use the system.
    Enjoy and lets see some images!
    Grüße, Tom

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.

    Could not resist the great offer (camera really 50% discount, although almost new and full Hasselblad guarantee).

    I finally checked how I feel with Phocus this morning, processed some shots and must say, it is pretty good. And as I expect Phocus 2.0 to be even better this became now an area I feel pretty comfortable with. Do not want to compare with C1, but most of the functions I need (use) are there. Will need to change my workflow a bit, but I got used to that as this became a need now at least once a year for me anyway.

    And finally the whole deal allows me to upgrade for a H4D/60 next year for again a very attractive offer - which is the really great news. Will see how I get along with the system and if it is ok for me, then I will shoot a Hasselblad 60MP back in a few months.

    All that does not mean that I stopped being interested in the S System, maybe I will come back to that system in a year or so when there are more options and one can actually buy this camera and some lenses and there are decent profiles floating around. But for that amount of money I am not willing to take the pain of waiting, not knowing when I finally could get one and then have to live through all the child sicknesses which such a new system is poised to have. Well I really need a working MF digital solution by begin of next year!

    As all the offers I got from Phase were not quite near the offer of Hasselblad it made my decision pretty easy sorry for them, but I tried really hard over the last 7-9 months, gave them all the chances but it did not work out - please understand this does not refer to my US friends of Capture Integration, who really were very helpful and friendly, but more to the local reps here in Austria. Hasselblad is light years ahead of them in terms of customer support and this is what finally counts with a very heavy weigth - at least for me!

    Looking forward to get now into the H System

  43. #143
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I like what the S2 produces so far. I also like the size and design philosophy behind this system and its flexibility. I like the Leica lenses - admittedly not knowing the S lenses but I am sure they will be outstanding.
    To use a prior sentiment, only reversed...

    What is the real good thing about the S2? Why do so many people get excited about this new system? Why does the red dot make people turn a switch in their brain and suddenly measure all and everything differently?



    Just Razzin' ya, Peter.... Congrats on the Hassy stuff. Make it sing!

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    It has nothing to do with the red dot, at least in this thread. The allure is a high-mega-pixel camera which is more compact than 645 cameras, simpler to use, and weather-sealed. The lenses will also almost certainly be of uniformly high quality, although the old Leica magic may not make it across to MF. With a DSLR you have nearly half the resolution, an AA filter and a stable of lenses of uneven quality, and with 645 you have greater weight, funky software and usage, issues with good and bad copies, and so on.

    Ultimately, you could just use a DSLR, but then why do you hang around here?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    David,

    Normally, I would ignore a comment like this or just pass it off as agreeing to disagree, and wouldn't bother responding. But, in this case, I do believe that pointing out the facts is important. You had asked what the S2 brought to the MF arena and I had responded.



    Perhaps the PhD comment was a bit over the top. The point that I was trying to make is that just about anyone can pick up the S2 and be familiar with 90+% of its features, functions, and menus within 15 minutes or less. I know that with other existing MFD systems, many dealers will charge an "installation fee" to come in and show you how to use your camera.

    The S2 menus are logical and clear. Being an integrated system, you never have to wonder if the setting is on the camera body or the back. Everything just makes sense. My overall point is that it is intuitive. I've personally demoed the S2 to over 30 people one-on-one and almost every single one of them expressed this opinion to me. Many of these people are current owners of other MFD systems. This real feedback, as well as my personal experience, is what leads me to make this statement.



    Surely the Phase videos are impressive, but I think the point is that you are far more likely to get caught in a rainstorm than stuck in a microwave. It is also interesting to note that the demonstration was done with dry ice (no moisture) and not including the camera body or lenses, which probably wouldn't have survived to shoot afterward.

    I have personally gotten rained on and done a shoot on the beach, inches from the surf with the S2. Water just isn't a problem for the S2. I've talked to a lot of fashion shooters on this coast and in LA who won't even consider taking their H3Ds to the beach, instead opting to use a Canon or Nikon.



    Agree that there need to be more lenses. This will come. Unlike the MFDB companies, Leica is an optics company who designs and manufactures its own lenses. These are entirely new designs, created specifically for the 30x45mm format, and specifically for digital capture. Leica currently has 22 lenses in M line, most of which were introduced less than ten years ago. It's hard to doubt Leica's ability to make stellar optics and push the bounds of what is possible.

    If we go purely by the MTFs, the S lenses are capable of resolving 40lp/mm at over 80% contrast, wide-open. Leica has always been extremely accurate in this regard.

    I'm not sure that maximum aperture can be refuted. I've shot with the 120mm f/2.5 Macro. It is extremely sharp and a stop and a half faster than any existing MF macro lens. The 35mm f/2.5 is also a full stop faster with a maximum distortion of 1.7% at close focus.



    I wasn't actually referring to fps here. I was referring to the speed of image review, zoom 1:1 speed, and scrolling around images. I've experienced the little spinning leaf icon when zooming in on Leaf backs, the pixelization on the H3DII, the progress bar on the Sinar, etc. The Leica is seemingly instantaneous.

    Since you bring up the fps, upon rechecking the Leaf specs, the Aptus II fps range from 0.9 to 1.1. So, 1.5 fps on the S2 is roughly 50% faster. In actual use, the S2 really is 1.5 fps.



    Yes, the Leaf has a 3.5" screen. What is the resolution, though? The S2 has a 460K pixel 3" screen. Compare this to the H3DII's 3" LCD at 230K or Phase One's 2.2" 230K LCD. Also, the S2 LCD doesn't wash out in daylight.



    You need to convert some back's proprietary RAW files in dedicated s/w before using "generic software". This is an extra step. If you put a Phase file directly into LR, you get center-folding. Sinar files have to be brought into eXposure to convert to DNG before being viewable. And, the often-necessary lens corrections become unavailable outside of dedicated s/w. This leaves many with a dual program workflow. For some users this is acceptable, and for others it's a hassle.



    I was comparing the S2 with 70mm to both the H3DII-39 with 80mm and the 645DF with 80mm D lens. For many photographers I've spoken to, as well for myself, a pound (0.5kg) is a big deal.



    There are more and more samples coming out as more photographers are getting a chance to shoot with the camera. Leica's goal of late has been to get the camera into the hands of as many top, working professionals who's work demands the quality of medium format. Personally, I've worked with several such professionals as well as demanding advanced amateurs, some of whom are on this forum.



    Another comment I've been hearing lately has been how nice the MF feel is on the S lenses. Two pros I just worked with prefer to manually focus. Both of them felt the S2 provided the best MF feel and viewfinder they had seen to date. One of these pros currently uses Phase backs on the H system, as well as Canon 1DsIII and was literally exclaiming his love for the viewfinder and ease of focus in the midst of his shoot.



    Having battery life that is literally 4-5x as long as current MFDB systems is a pretty big step. Being able to shoot all day on a single battery. Some may not need this level of battery performance, but again, based on pro feedback, this is a really big deal.



    Actually it is $22,995 USD. What is the price for a 645DF/P40+? I think it is pretty close actually. Older backs by other manufactures do represent a great value.



    What other medium format system can sync at 1/4000th?



    Are we looking at the same files? I haven't read this feedback from anybody else.



    Just like DSLRs, the upgradability is a new body. The old body can be kept as a backup, sold, or traded in for a new one.

    Leica has stated that they will not limit any company from creating adapters for the S system.

    When the camera ships in a few weeks, there will be a final profile in LR. For now, the default rendering in both LR and C1 are very good considering there is no profile. Also, with a Colorchecker Passport, one can easily and quickly make a DCR profile. I plan to make an ICC camera profile for C1 as well, using the EyeOne XT system.

    Why don't we judge availability once the camera starts shipping?

    The bottom line is that many photographers who are happy and satisfied with their existing MFD systems won't find a reason to switch. Current backs, despite modular upgrade paths, have dropped significantly in value. The manufacturers have done an excellent job of devaluing used equipment based on aggressive price wars. As I have always believed, if you are happy with what you have, then stay with what you have. There will be many, though, that do see the S2 as a revolutionary tool and are willing to make the switch. They are not doing this because I told them to, or they have been tricked somehow. It is because they see the value in doing so.



    While David K is quite well-spoken and articulate, he always speaks his mind. He wouldn't have made this comment if he didn't mean it. It has nothing to do with diplomacy, but rather actually having tried out the S2 against his existing Sinar system.



    Yes. Admittedly I am excited about the S2. The statements that I've presented about the camera aren't "marketing hype," results of my enthusiasm, or made because I lack experience with other MFD systems. I have presented facts as well as feedback from real professional photographers.

    Respectfully,

    David

    David:

    I'm sure you're a nice guy and mean well. And I haven't really wanted to butt in up to this point. But the fact is Capture Integration is now an authorized Leica dealer and as such, it's certainly a thread that has our attention.

    The problem I have is that you just don't have the knowledge or experence to know how the S2 will compare to medium format digital systems. And this is evidenced by the slew of inaccurate, misleading - and just plain wrong - information you sling about medium format products and companies in your defense of the S2 system. I would think that since you consider yourself a journalist - in your words - you would do better research before you write something.

    But no amount of research would really benefit your argument anyway. First off, you don't sell medium format digital products. So your opinion, based on research or whatever, has to be taken with a very heavy grain of salt regardless. Secondly, if you did actually want to attempt to be objective, you don't have the years of experience and everyday knowledge of these systems that would be required in order for you to be so.

    And frankly, I find your attempts to make commentary on the aspects of competitive products distasteful and not in keeping with respectful values that are largely upheld by the likes of David Grover, Yair Shahar, and others.

    I can promise everyone here, that when we evaluate the S2 product and compare it to medium format systems, it will be an informed comparison, based on years of real world, first hand experience. And regardless of our conclusions, the result will be an objective comparative evaluation with regard to the products that we sell, not products we don't sell and have little knowledge of.


    Steve Hendrix
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 27th November 2009 at 11:38.
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    Digital Cam: • Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar • Authorized Reseller
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  46. #146
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I cannot help but add a few thoughts to this thread.

    First is, these are just cameras folks, so let's remember we all share a passion for photography!

    Next is choices will be made by most folks based on perceived bangs for the buck -- and the population of how those decisions are made will fall into a spread conforming to a normal, bell-shaped curve... So sure, true believers on the Leica, Phase or Hassy (or Leaph?) side will remain stalwart supporters regardless of results, as will the stalwart detractors on the other sides. But at the end of the day I suspect for most users it's going to come to deciding on the bang for the buck proposition. And that bang can be image quality, portability, system modularity, look from the lenses, breadth and depth of lenses and accessories, or even just brand name, or whatever the heck else yanks their cranks -- but at at the specific price-point thresholds for each individual. So in the end, there's not going to be one right or wrong choice, only different choices based on differing needs, biases and means.

    Damn, that is good, isn't it? I may use that paragraph as my new standard test disclaimer!!!
    Jack
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    while I think the new S2 lenses are amazing it is the wholeness of the system, the sum of all the parts, that causes me to like and desire the S2. No, it is not flawless..but close enough for me to want to get one..I have seen enough of its potential. This is what it comes down to for me, the camera delivers as big a file as you would want in a handheld package and does so in a beautiful way. I love my dmr for small camera work and the S2 makes my DMR look and feel like a dinosaur. I too need to keep a tech camera and back for certain view camera applications that all reflexs just can't do.
    I don't specialize in people, or events, so I have never got addicted to a dslr workflow with multiple af zones and high burst rates, etc. I know what i like and need in a camera for my type of work and judge a system based on those needs.
    It amazes me that there are some who feel many photographers buy equipment based on brand identity and not on performance..image and otherwise. It seems to me those are the ones who have been brain washed and have a knee jerk reaction to the Leica logo..makes them see red when they hear someone like david f point out its features and capabilities. I am sure he would and has suggested that you decide for yourselves as to what it can do.
    Maybe once guy gives it the once over and validates its standout abilites and weaknesses then others can decide if it is for them.. but as guy has said so many times you need to shoot and process the stuff yourself to determine if it fits you.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    David:
    you don't sell medium format digital products. So your opinion, based on research or whatever, has to be taken with a very heavy grain of salt
    Steve Hendrix

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    I'm really sorry if unintentionally I offended you Mark. My usual approach to discussions is to be direct, and I realize that sometimes I come across as aggressive, but I feel that there's more value in frankness than trying to beat around the bush.

    My exchange with David F. was a discussion between a customer and a vendor. I VERY much want to buy the S2 but I'm not yet convinced. What I wrote is exactly what I would mention if I was standing across the counter from him discussing the sale. Your images turned out to be part of that conversation and I replied with how I see them. I regret offending you in the process, but if you allow me, I'll post your images with an explanation of why I see them that way, and if I'm wrong, I'll apologize again and take what I said back.
    David, I wasn't offended by your comment. I simply disagree with you and believe it is easy to see the point of focus in most, if not all, of the photos I posted and uploaded. My problem with your comment is that it wasn't "direct" as you purport, it was more like a slur without any objective evidence to support your statement. You put it out there as if it was fact and it is not.

    Critical focus is only one part of the equation to achieve a good photo - there are many other factors, such as those mentioned by Victor, which degrade a photo which is otherwise in focus. I took the photos in question (except the beer bottle and skyline) and I know where I focused each frame as well as the dynamic conditions of each photo. Based on this experience and my experience with other autofocus dSLRs, I found the S2 focus to be very accurate. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, however it would be nice if it is stated as opinion rather than fact. Enough said about this as far as I am concerned.

    To answer Victor's question, the S2 focus does not really hunt much. It may go past the point of intended focus once maybe twice and then back, but it doesn't go back and forth much at all. It feels very sure about what it is doing. Another thing about the S2 autofocus which is different than other other cameras I have used is that the camera does not refocus if the subject distance doesn't change (at least it's not audibly noticable) between presses of the autofocus button. For example, if the camera is set on a tripod and framed on a static subject, the autofocus will achieve focus on the first press of the button, but on subsequent presses of the button it doesn't hunt for focus again. I don't know what the threshold of distance change is to cause refocus or if it is in fact refocusing and its such a small step that I can't sense it. Other cameras I have used would attempt to find focus by racking the lens back and forth with each press of the button. The autofocus makes a little more noise than the ultrasonic motors in Canon lenses when focusing, but the noise is not objectionable to me. I posted my thoughts on S2 focusing in my "Another S2 Experience" thread yesterday (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12062).

    Edit: corrected typo
    Last edited by Mark Gowin; 27th November 2009 at 14:17.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.

    Could not resist the great offer (camera really 50% discount, although almost new and full Hasselblad guarantee).

    I finally checked how I feel with Phocus this morning, processed some shots and must say, it is pretty good. And as I expect Phocus 2.0 to be even better this became now an area I feel pretty comfortable with. Do not want to compare with C1, but most of the functions I need (use) are there. Will need to change my workflow a bit, but I got used to that as this became a need now at least once a year for me anyway.
    Congratulations Peter! You've made a fine choice.

    (However, I have to admit to a wee bit of confusion given the extremely positive comments you made after that recent C1 demo I gave you!)

    ,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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