Peter, I think IQ is outstanding on all the latest backs these days. Whether it's worth what it costs is a personal decision that varies for all of us but, IMHO, is a bit more difficult for those of us who already own MF systems which are now worth so much less than we expected.
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S2 in the "Real World"
- Thread starter fotografz
- Start date
I'm back at my home station now and will give it a try as soon as I get some free time.
-Marc
gogopix
Subscriber
You heard it HERE! ..the dreaded "US" word
and, no selling your mamyia/Phase system as "Man Guycuso" isn't going to fool anyone
:ROTFL:
but I am heartened by a shift in thinking by the senior professionals amongst us...
who knows, maybe I will follow up on my deposit this time...:angel:
All kidding aside, I think many here are going to be interested in your and Jack's tests. As one who bought (still has, still uses and still loves) the DMR based on the evidence in "that other forum", from Guy and others, the real world pragmatism and everyday shooting experience is far better than all the bench tests in the work.
Go for it
Regards
Victir
Even the Mamiya ZD has a better AF than the Hy6.
Wasnt the conclusion that those MF-sensor which use microlenses do show slightly less detail at pixel-level?
I cant talk about the P40+/P65+, but the 75LV doesnt do bad at ISO800 and I wouldnt feel afraid to push it one more 1/2 step.
I am not saying that I dont expect the S2 to be little better-I just doubt it will be a quantum step as it sometimes sounds.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
I do not care about quantum steps or even incremental steps better - if it performs on the level of the best MFDBs in terms of IQ and ISO, then the form factor for me is the really killing argument.
Somehow my dream equipment carves out of the noisy darkness:
P45+ and a Tech Cam (maybe Alpa) with 1 or 2 great Schneider lenses
S2 with 3 lenses - a good WA, 70 and 180
Can process all in C1 then, do not have to fight with a H3D or H4D or Phase camera, leaves me alone without any Phase or Hasselblad glass manufactured and designed in Japan or elsewhere - which I all do not like too much - sorry -
And am done
Somehow my dream equipment carves out of the noisy darkness:
P45+ and a Tech Cam (maybe Alpa) with 1 or 2 great Schneider lenses
S2 with 3 lenses - a good WA, 70 and 180
Can process all in C1 then, do not have to fight with a H3D or H4D or Phase camera, leaves me alone without any Phase or Hasselblad glass manufactured and designed in Japan or elsewhere - which I all do not like too much - sorry -
And am done
I could not see myself spending 16k € for an S2 if I had allready another back (with a larger sensor) for a tech camera allready (as long as I dont win the lottery)
This would be like paying additional 13k € just for using a Leica S2 body instead of a Mamiya body, plus it would mean more bulk and weight if you want to bring both cameras.
Now if the T/S-lens from Leica would be so good that one wanted to give up on the tech camera it might be a different story.
This would be like paying additional 13k € just for using a Leica S2 body instead of a Mamiya body, plus it would mean more bulk and weight if you want to bring both cameras.
Now if the T/S-lens from Leica would be so good that one wanted to give up on the tech camera it might be a different story.
I do not care about quantum steps or even incremental steps better - if it performs on the level of the best MFDBs in terms of IQ and ISO, then the form factor for me is the really killing argument.
Somehow my dream equipment carves out of the noisy darkness:
P45+ and a Tech Cam (maybe Alpa) with 1 or 2 great Schneider lenses
S2 with 3 lenses - a good WA, 70 and 180
Can process all in C1 then, do not have to fight with a H3D or H4D or Phase camera, leaves me alone without any Phase or Hasselblad glass manufactured and designed in Japan or elsewhere - which I all do not like too much - sorry -
And am done
Bill_Green
Member
The images look about like I expected - like a modern DMR with more resolution. Awesome. Nothing else has color depth like that.
Christopher
Active member
While I agree that the camera looks, good, I don't know what images you mean. I can't see anything better or special about them. They are as good as expected from such an expensive system, but certainly not better. Still there are even people how actually thought that the DMR, was completely over hyped by a red dot.
A dream would be to use a Canon SLR, M9, S2 and P65 with a LF camera all together. Perhaps I should start going to vegas a lot more often.
A dream would be to use a Canon SLR, M9, S2 and P65 with a LF camera all together. Perhaps I should start going to vegas a lot more often.
I came across this remark in an article relating to the price of gold and expectations of hyperinflation. As I read the words I couldn't help but think how it well it applied to this dialogue:
"Some years ago, when I was researching my first financial book, on sports betting, I was struck again and again by the human ability to see something that isn't there. (During the 2002 Super Bowl, fans continued to bet on the heavily favored St. Louis Rams to trounce the underdog new England Patriots well into the game – even as the Patriots were already showing the strength that would take them on to win.) People will see, and bet on, what they expect to see, what they want to see, or even what they are told they are seeing, as often as they will see, and bet on, what they are actually seeing."
"Some years ago, when I was researching my first financial book, on sports betting, I was struck again and again by the human ability to see something that isn't there. (During the 2002 Super Bowl, fans continued to bet on the heavily favored St. Louis Rams to trounce the underdog new England Patriots well into the game – even as the Patriots were already showing the strength that would take them on to win.) People will see, and bet on, what they expect to see, what they want to see, or even what they are told they are seeing, as often as they will see, and bet on, what they are actually seeing."
The mention of gold is interesting since I'm up 76% on gold purchases in pure profit after premiums, transaction fees and taxes. Just bringing this up for the surfer that might have been thinking about getting out of stocks or real estate. I've made enough profit in USD from gold in the past 2 years to buy an S2 system for cash, but don't plan on selling just yet
It's true that there is a psychology going on when it comes to the S2. The simplest way to explain it is to use an analogy that my sister learned in a basic marketing class in college. When discussing target markets, the instructor said "if a person walks into a store and doesn't feel comfortable, then he's not supposed to be in the store and it wasn't designed for him." That simple statement sums up most of the misunderstandings of the S2. Those that aren't comfortable with the idea aren't the target market in the first place. No-harm-no-foul, they can just leave the store and move onto another store where they may feel more comfortable.
Some people will want the S2 as a status symbol, but most will buy it because it's a system built around the lenses. The S2 is about the lenses...not ISO, or AF, or size, or weather sealing. The S2 is about having a system designed around the lenses. If some people don't see the advantage of the Leica lenses within an integrated system, then they can just move on to another open system with different lenses. If they want higher ISO or more AF points, then there are plenty of camera systems available that can do that too. If some people want to shoot through AA filters so that they won't have to fix a little moire in post, there are already plenty of cameras with heavy filtering that will happily accommodate these needs. No-harm-no-foul, there is room for everybody.
It's true that there is a psychology going on when it comes to the S2. The simplest way to explain it is to use an analogy that my sister learned in a basic marketing class in college. When discussing target markets, the instructor said "if a person walks into a store and doesn't feel comfortable, then he's not supposed to be in the store and it wasn't designed for him." That simple statement sums up most of the misunderstandings of the S2. Those that aren't comfortable with the idea aren't the target market in the first place. No-harm-no-foul, they can just leave the store and move onto another store where they may feel more comfortable.
Some people will want the S2 as a status symbol, but most will buy it because it's a system built around the lenses. The S2 is about the lenses...not ISO, or AF, or size, or weather sealing. The S2 is about having a system designed around the lenses. If some people don't see the advantage of the Leica lenses within an integrated system, then they can just move on to another open system with different lenses. If they want higher ISO or more AF points, then there are plenty of camera systems available that can do that too. If some people want to shoot through AA filters so that they won't have to fix a little moire in post, there are already plenty of cameras with heavy filtering that will happily accommodate these needs. No-harm-no-foul, there is room for everybody.
David Grover / Phase One
New member
Just to point out, our 'Glass' is designed in Sweden.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Ok, designed in Sweden, but manufactured in Japan, so not exactly what I want to see, but I agree, this is maybe the best way to survive economically today.
BTW - I heard that Hasselblad is actually owned by a Chinese company (family/imperium) - is that true?
Not that his is bad at all, I just ask myself then how constant and predictible the Hasselblad future will look like long term.
I think that's what we are trying to determine ... how ARE the lenses? Just because it has Leica stamped on it isn't enough to shell out this kind of coin. The competition is pretty stiff in this neck of the MFD woods.
Zeiss, Schneider and yes, even many of the HC optics. I mean talk about interesting ... Schneider AF lenses with leaf shutter action up to 1/1600th?
Frankly, that's as interesting to me as this S2 is. I'd LOVE to see that new Phase One system in action ...
Oh, oh,
Marc
:ROTFL:
D
ddk
Guest
Your sister needs change her teacher since more than likely the designers screwed up that store and wanted to pass the buck!
What lenses are you talking about? As of now there are many gaps in their line up! And what makes you think that Leica's S2 lenses are going to be any better than other makers with years of experience in the MF field? You seem to forget that software and digital engineering is at least 50% of the equation in the design of a modern day camera, something that Leica is a relative newbie at.
This is as simplistic a comment as what was taught to your sister about the store, I very much doubt that Leica wants anyone to walk away from the S2. If they're having difficulty convincing experienced MF shooters is because they dropped the ball somewhere...
D
ddk
Guest
:wtf: Peter, I didn't realize that Japan was such a manufacturing dump for cheap labor!:ROTFL:
As far as I know Japan is one of if not the premiere manufacturing nation for quality and high end manufacturing...
You mean manufactured in Japan like the Zeiss lenses for Contax were? And the Zeiss ZA lenses for Sony? And the new Mamiya D lenses? And the current Zeiss ZF lenses and ZE lenses? Or optics like the Mamiya 7 lenses? Then there were those Fuji lenses for the XPan. You mean Japanese made lenses like those?
One can ask oneself how constant and predictable Hasselblad, or Leaf, or Mamiya and Phase future looks, or any MF company with the likes of self-sustaining, sensor making companies like Sony and Canon breathing down their necks ... not to mention RED. All these companies are just one technological breakthrough away from oblivion.
In the meantime, we have to make photographs with something
-Marc