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Thread: S2 in the "Real World"

  1. #151
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I cannot help but add a few thoughts to this thread.

    First is, these are just cameras folks, so let's remember we all share a passion for photography!

    Next is choices will be made by most folks based on perceived bangs for the buck -- and the population of how those decisions are made will fall into a spread conforming to a normal, bell-shaped curve... So sure, true believers on the Leica, Phase or Hassy (or Leaph?) side will remain stalwart supporters regardless of results, as will the stalwart detractors on the other sides. But at the end of the day I suspect for most users it's going to come to deciding on the bang for the buck proposition. And that bang can be image quality, portability, system modularity, look from the lenses, breadth and depth of lenses and accessories, or even just brand name, or whatever the heck else yanks their cranks -- but at at the specific price-point thresholds for each individual. So in the end, there's not going to be one right or wrong choice, only different choices based on differing needs, biases and means.

    Damn, that is good, isn't it? I may use that paragraph as my new standard test disclaimer!!!
    Yes, that is very good.

  2. #152
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    David:

    I'm sure you're a nice guy and mean well. And I haven't really wanted to butt in up to this point. But the fact is Capture Integration is now an authorized Leica dealer and as such, it's certainly a thread that has our attention.

    The problem I have is that you just don't have the knowledge or experence to know how the S2 will compare to medium format digital systems. And this is evidenced by the slew of inaccurate, misleading - and just plain wrong - information you sling about medium format products and companies in your defense of the S2 system. I would think that since you consider yourself a journalist - in your words - you would do better research before you write something.

    But no amount of research would really benefit your argument anyway. First off, you don't sell medium format digital products. So your opinion, based on research or whatever, has to be taken with a very heavy grain of salt regardless. Secondly, if you did actually want to attempt to be objective, you don't have the years of experience and everyday knowledge of these systems that would be required in order for you to be so.

    And frankly, I find your attempts to make commentary on the aspects of competitive products distasteful and not in keeping with respectful values that are largely upheld by the likes of David Grover, Yair Shahar, and others.

    I can promise everyone here, that when we evaluate the S2 product and compare it to medium format systems, it will be an informed comparison, based on years of real world, first hand experience. And regardless of our conclusions, the result will be an objective comparative evaluation with regard to the products that we sell, not products we don't sell and have little knowledge of.


    Steve Hendrix
    Have I missed one of David F's posts that was distasteful or disrespectful towards a competitive brand? I certainly don't see anything in the quotation that would qualify. And to suggest to someone that he should do better research before posting, but even if he had it wouldn't matter because his opinion needs to be taken with a grain of salt isn't what I'd call constructive advice. Steve, I know you for many years and have the highest respect for both your knowledge and professionalism. I don't know David Grover, have only met Yair once but share your high opinion of them from reading their many posts. You may all represent different products and have different opinions but there's a mutual respect that you accord each other that is one of the hallmarks (to me) of a professional. While David doesn't have the MF experience you or Yair or David G might have he's a very well regarded and long time Leica dealer. Since he is a member of the ranks of MF dealers, albeit a junior one, why not welcome him to the fold and, if you think he's out of line, send him a private message and tell him where he's stepping out of line.

  3. #153
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I agree, I felt that your post was very harsh without containing enough detail to support what you wrote, Steve. I would much prefer to read good-humoured factual rebuttals than see reps go on the offensive like that.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Gentle Readers:
    Referring to forum rules:
    3) Arguing, rudeness, generally poor or negative behavior will be dealt with at moderator discretion as they see fit. This may result in the offending post(s) or entire thread(s) being deleted with or without explanation, and/or the offending poster(s) being banned or having their accounts suspended or erased. Note that broader topical and emotional latitude is tolerated in the "Sunset Bar" forum, but decisions on thread or post appropriateness remain at moderator discretion there as well.
    Please do not tempt the Mods

    so please, PLEASE refer to forum rule Nr.1
    1) Keep your discussions polite, fun and on topic. In short, act like you would at a friend's dinner party.
    Now, please return to your seats and carry on
    Last edited by Bob; 27th November 2009 at 16:15.

  5. #155
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I am sorry if I came across harsh or un-fun. I didn't know "fun" posts were a requirement.

    I don't think anything I said was rude or would even be considered arguing. I simply pointed out that the information from David is incorrect, which is no big deal, other than that David has a potential agenda which may propel him to not do his proper homework. Or maybe he's just careless, I don't know. And that David may be perceived as an authority for the information he is providing that forum members may take as factual and act upon (to their detriment).

    I simply pointed out facts.

    I did not disparage competitive products.
    I did not provide misleading and inaccurate information on those products.

    If the moderators feel I have done a disservice to the forum by pointing this out, then I guess I'm unsure what benefit we can serve, if not to provide factual information that forum members may make appropriate decisions on. In fact - that is what we, Capture Integration, are known for.

    If it came across as too pointed, I apologize. But I stand 100% by what I said.


    Steve Hendrix
    Last edited by Steve Hendrix; 27th November 2009 at 16:46.
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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  6. #156
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Steve, you said David was wrong, but you didn't point out why. That can hardly be claimed to be based in fact. You also implied strongly that he was inexperienced and that CI would do a proper professional job. While this may or may not be true, it comes across quite arrogant to say so.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I
    If it came across as too pointed, I apologize. But I stand 100% by what I said.
    Steve Hendrix
    Well, in the spirit of fun, that's the kind of apologies I get from my wife I consider both you and David as friends and I'm quite certain that when you guys finally meet you will like each other as well.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.
    Looking forward to get now into the H System
    Congratulations Peter! If I could afford one, I'd have one too....and to think you could be using an H4D/60 next year is icing on the cake!

    Enjoy the new kit.....look forward to seeing some of you images here at GetDPI.

    Gary

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Well, in the spirit of fun, that's the kind of apologies I get from my wife I consider both you and David as friends and I'm quite certain that when you guys finally meet you will like each other as well.
    I am sure of this as well. This industry is filled with great people and this is not personal in any way, and as I said, perhaps too pointed. I withdraw the pointedness.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Steve, you said David was wrong, but you didn't point out why. That can hardly be claimed to be based in fact. You also implied strongly that he was inexperienced and that CI would do a proper professional job. While this may or may not be true, it comes across quite arrogant to say so.

    Carsten:

    The fact is, when it comes to knowledge of medium format systems, David is inexperienced. I don't think I'm implying that, I'm stating it. It's a fact, not a claim. I also did not imply CI would do a "proper professional job", I stated that it would be a comparison based on years of real world experience, and that we would not make claims about products we have little hands on knowledge of. I think I'm pretty clear there.

    Since you've asked for it - I'll provide some examples of misleading or inaccurate information:

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    The point that I was trying to make is that just about anyone can pick up the S2 and be familiar with 90+% of its features, functions, and menus within 15 minutes or less. I know that with other existing MFD systems, many dealers will charge an "installation fee" to come in and show you how to use your camera.
    Full service training with in depth instruction of both hardware and software is offered by informed dealers and is available for clients. David is implying this is required to become familiar with the camera. The fact is most users are able to get familiar with Hasselblad, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar backs/cameras within a similar period of time without dealer instruction. The vast majority of fee-based dealer instruction is spent on software.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Surely the Phase videos are impressive, but I think the point is that you are far more likely to get caught in a rainstorm than stuck in a microwave. It is also interesting to note that the demonstration was done with dry ice (no moisture) and not including the camera body or lenses, which probably wouldn't have survived to shoot afterward.
    If David was familiar with the Phase One videos he would realize there is a video of the Phase One digital back and camera being used during a monsoon in India, during which the Canon system the photographer was also using, failed.


    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Unlike the MFDB companies, Leica is an optics company who designs and manufactures its own lenses.
    Phase One is a majority holder in the Mamiya corporation, which I believe does indeed design and manufacture lenses, as does Hasselblad.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    If you put a Phase file directly into LR, you get center-folding.
    I have seen one incidence of density shift with a Phase One digital back with a Dalsa sensor out of the thousands sold and I have never seen a Kodak based Phase One back exhibit centerfold.



    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Having battery life that is literally 4-5x as long as current MFDB systems is a pretty big step.
    I've shot all day with Hasselblad and Phase One systems on 2 batteries. While the S2 will have improved battery life, it is not 5 times MFDB's.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas; *This is from David's blog
    I say theoretically because in most cases, in order to get all the new features of a camera or digital back, you are forced to upgrade the other components as well.
    Ridiculous. Phase One owners who upgraded from P backs to P+ backs could put the Plus backs on their existing camera and get every feature of the Plus units. Leaf Aptus S owners who upgraded Aptus got nearly twice the speed just by putting the back on their same camera.



    Carsten, these aren't huge lies or anything, they're sometimes just wrong and other times just unsubstantiated. I said earlier that it didn't bother me that much that he was disparaging competitors, but I guess yes it does bother me. Before we decided to pick up the Leica line and sell the S2, Capture Integration wasn't on here putting down the S2, especially with incorrect information.

    We talk about what we sell, not what we don't . Because what we find is that when we do talk about what we don't sell, we aren't that accurate. That's what is happening here. David should learn to follow the same course.


    Steve Hendrix
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  11. #161
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    David, I wasn't offended by your comment. I simply disagree with you and believe it is easy to see the point of focus in most, if not all, of the photos I posted and uploaded. My problem with your comment is that it wasn't "direct" as you purport, it was more like a slur without any objective evidence to support your statement. You put it out there as if it was fact and it is not.
    It was not a slur Mike, the objective evidence is in your images and I can show it if you're open to me posting them! Even 2 out of the 3 model shots are out of focus or misfocused if you prefer.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Since you've asked for it - I'll provide some examples of misleading or inaccurate information:
    Great. Allow me to comment.

    Full service training with in depth instruction of both hardware and software is offered by informed dealers and is available for clients. David is implying this is required to become familiar with the camera. The fact is most users are able to get familiar with Hasselblad, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar backs/cameras within a similar period of time without dealer instruction. The vast majority of fee-based dealer instruction is spent on software.
    We offer this for FREE to any customers that want more in-depth explanation or help. I personally walk through products with customers all the time, and have done multi-hour-long web-based remote training on C1 and LR for those new to those pieces of software. Again, for free.

    What I was referring to is that just about anyone picking up the S2 can immediately and intuitively use it. Give someone a MFDB who has never used one and see how long it takes them to figure it out. Perhaps this is just my opinion, but I've witnessed this lack of user-friendliness first hand, thus the basis for my original statement. Perhaps when you get a chance to use the S2, you will agree.

    If David was familiar with the Phase One videos he would realize there is a video of the Phase One digital back and camera being used during a monsoon in India, during which the Canon system the photographer was also using, failed.
    Yes, my inexperience extends to not watching all the Phase One promotional videos. Can you please clarify the extent to which the Phase One system is weather sealed? Are you, CI, and/or Phase One implying that it is safe for photographers to use their systems in these conditions without having to worry about functional failures or damage? If yes, then I was unaware and I apologize. Have you personally shot with a Phase system in these kinds of conditions?

    Phase One is a majority holder in the Mamiya corporation, which I believe does indeed design and manufacture lenses, as does Hasselblad.
    Is Phase One really a majority shareholder or just an investor? This has been unclear from the press releases as both companies are privately held. If this is the case, why is Phase One partnering with Schneider for the upcoming LS lenses? And, being a shareholder, majority or otherwise, still doesn't make Phase One an optics company.

    Hasselblad has only recently started doing lens design. Before the H system, all lenses were designed and built for them by Zeiss. Not implying that they are bad lenses, I'm just stating that this experience is fairly new. Leica (Leitz) has been making optics since 1847, just a wee bit longer than most.

    I have seen one incidence of density shift with a Phase One digital back with a Dalsa sensor out of the thousands sold and I have never seen a Kodak based Phase One back exhibit centerfold.
    I must be very lucky then! Attached are two crops from two different P65+ backs (one from PhotoPlus in NYC and the other from our recent studio event here in FL), both of which show a quadrant center-fold. I thought this was a pretty well-known P65+/LR issue.

    I've shot all day with Hasselblad and Phase One systems on 2 batteries. While the S2 will have improved battery life, it is not 5 times MFDB's.
    Can you tell me how many shots you did that day? 300-500 shots? At our S2 studio event last weekend, the S2 was still showing a half charge after 700 shots and being on continually for 6 hours straight. Also, consider that the S2 uses a single battery for camera, lens, and digital function, not a battery for the back and six AA batteries for the camera.

    Ridiculous. Phase One owners who upgraded from P backs to P+ backs could put the Plus backs on their existing camera and get every feature of the Plus units. Leaf Aptus S owners who upgraded Aptus got nearly twice the speed just by putting the back on their same camera.
    I said "in most" cases, not "in all" cases. In order to use the upcoming 60MP back from Hasselblad, you need to upgrade from the H3D to the H4D body. Users of the H2D had to upgrade to the H3D in order to use lenses like the 28H CD or 35-90 HCD. In order to take advantage of the new CCD sync on the P40+ and P65+, you also need to upgrade to the new 645DF body. So while in some cases, a simple back upgrade on the same body will get you addition features, in other cases you need to upgrade everything in order to gain features or performance.

    As I mentioned in my previous post to ddk, I really don't like to go on a item-by-item back and forth, creating forum thread drama, but in this case I am again addressing the facts. The implication that I am a liar or misleading people with bad information is not just untrue - it seems unsubstantiated.

    The bottom line is photographers will see for themselves first hand what works for them in their shooting conditions, in their hands, with their vision, and their workflow. Simple as that. So, until then, people who have actually used the camera can continue to share their experiences with it to provide a variety of perspectives to those who haven't been able to try it yet.

    David
    David Farkas
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    It was not a slur Mike, the objective evidence is in your images and I can show it if you're open to me posting them! Even 2 out of the 3 model shots are out of focus or misfocused if you prefer.
    You can't even get my name correct - it was quoted in your post. Lets just agree to disagree and move on. It really isn't that important - we aren't trying to solve world hunger afterall. We are both big boys and aren't going to loose any sleep over it.

    It would be fun to debate the topic face to face but too much is lost in a forum exchange. I'd say you're full of crap and you'd say I'm full of crap, then we would have another beer or glass of wine or scotch or whatever and then we would debate each of our points again. Maybe someday we will have that chance, but for now it is not worth the bandwidth. This thread has degenerated too far already.

    Mark

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I think it is no secret that the P40 and P65 have very strong centerfolds or even quad or 8folds, when looking at images in Lightroom. As far as I know the main reason is that officially both backs are still not supported by Adobe. Heaven knows if they ever will. However it is also true that I have never seen a Centerfold in Lightroom from any other Phase back.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Congratulations Peter! You've made a fine choice.

    (However, I have to admit to a wee bit of confusion given the extremely positive comments you made after that recent C1 demo I gave you!)

    ,
    Jack,

    this is very true, so let me try to answer a bit:

    1) there are several features in C1 I really like, especially the ones you showed me last time.

    2) WRT Color Correction - this works in a very similar way also in Phocus, as I could find out - one just needs to try to get the work done and dig deeper into it, which I must say I was too lazy till I really needed

    3) After testing a bit Phocus I figured out that the additional workflow is just to use Phocus in addition. I always was doing RAW adjustments on my images in C1 and if I really wanted them for print out and publishing on my http://fineartphotography.tomsu.eu/ I was converting them to TIFF, because I had to finetune all images in PS CS4.

    Now the only difference is, that I am converting the Hassi images to TIFF in Phocus and then store them in my gallery folders. And these I can then either handle from C1 or from PS CS4. And actually I could even apply all the nice features of C1 to these TIFFs as well, so I am just adding possibilities.

    FInally I also can convert to DNG from Phocus, which allows me then the same additional finetuning in C1 - if I really need.

    4) The offer was really great - half of list price for the H3D39 and the upgrade possibility to H4D for again a very attractive upgrade price! So I never could have been in that "low" price range with a Phase system.

    Not wanting to go in a comparison discussion again, but I strongly believe that both systems - Hassi and Phocus - are on par with regards to IQ, which is finally what counts.

    5) I have now a MFDB solution with all its advantages (flexibility) and disadvantages (bulky) but this is considered as a separate system for me I am using for landscape and thus it is more than ok.

    6) I am still considering the S System, as an add on - I know a very expensive add on. But I see this over a timeframe of the next 1-2 years, till then the S System should have settled and matured and we will know if it is worth the additional investment.

    Cannot wait to go on a shoot with you taking my new Hasselblad - will be great fun

  16. #166
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Cannot wait to go on a shoot with you taking my new Hasselblad - will be great fun
    I am looking forward to that too --- some interesting options coming very soon
    Jack
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Folks, I came very close to locking this thread down today. One member crossed the line and insulted one of our mods and has been dealt with. So once again, let's keep this polite or I will close it down.

    At the same time, special thanks to those of you who are trying to keep the thread on point and friendly -- it is only because of your efforts I have left it open, so thanks!
    Jack
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  18. #168
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I cannot help but add a few thoughts to this thread.

    First is, these are just cameras folks, so let's remember we all share a passion for photography!

    Next is choices will be made by most folks based on perceived bangs for the buck -- and the population of how those decisions are made will fall into a spread conforming to a normal, bell-shaped curve... So sure, true believers on the Leica, Phase or Hassy (or Leaph?) side will remain stalwart supporters regardless of results, as will the stalwart detractors on the other sides. But at the end of the day I suspect for most users it's going to come to deciding on the bang for the buck proposition. And that bang can be image quality, portability, system modularity, look from the lenses, breadth and depth of lenses and accessories, or even just brand name, or whatever the heck else yanks their cranks -- but at at the specific price-point thresholds for each individual. So in the end, there's not going to be one right or wrong choice, only different choices based on differing needs, biases and means.

    Damn, that is good, isn't it? I may use that paragraph as my new standard test disclaimer!!!
    Jack,

    just reading through all of this right now, YES, this paragraph from you is REALLY good no kidding!

    WRT choices - most of you in this forum on the MF threads know my thoughts and I was long time kind of more leaning towards Phase because of their backs and because of C1. I almost always excluded Hasselblad during this time, mainly because of SW. Then there is of course the S2 and I must say I feel really fascinated by this system, till today!

    Now, after waiting and waiting for the S2 and after several delays and my assumption it will take another year or so till more lenses choices will be available this became finally a kind of blocker for immediate purchase of an S System. I need a MF system by begin of next year.

    Then I tried to get a good offer for Phase, as this was my preferred choice, but did not come true. Main reason is the pricing structure of Phase, which obviously puts a lot of pressure also on the Phase partners in terms of pricing and discount. Yes there are some good trade in offers, but finally these make only really sense as long as you have some MF gear for trade in.

    As I was still without any MF equipment till yesterday, all these offers did not really appeal to me. And then there was the Hasselblad offer. Hm, I thought lets check Phocus and see how I can get along with it. Knowing all the good stuff of C1 for my workflow. And here we go - turned out that this SW package was not so bad as I thought, on the Hasselblad files it does great magic and produces high IQ - not much to wonder about, but also most of the features I need for my RAW post processing were available and in a similar way as intuitive as the C1 counterparts - this is my very personal evaluation I must say!

    So what was the blocking for not jumping into Hasselblad? Closed system? I do not care as it is actually open for me as I can upgrade with all the issues you have also with other systems and you can use tech cameras too, actually much better because you need then to use the external image bank to the back which gives you much more choices in terms of battery and storage than a Phase back on a tech camera.

    SW? No longer for me as I found out!

    Lens lineup? Actually the most complete lineup I could find for any MF system - again my very personal choice.

    Camera? For me the H camera was always better in handling than the Phamiya - personal preference again. And I still do not say it is a lovely and sexy camera, as it is bulky and big and heavy - well but it is MF!

    Support - Hasselblad absolutely the best - light years ahead from competition here in Austria!

    And finally PRICE $$$$$$$

    Final choice - Hasselblad.

  19. #169
    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    With no intention to fuel any polemics or anything like that, I would like to add a quick note re: simplicity of use of the Phase backs, from an user's point of view.

    It took me about 20 seconds to set one up and start shooting, and the Phase camera took 30 seconds more to change a couple of custom settings to suit my shooting style better (basically, AF from the AFL button, as I am used from my Nikon F5 & D2x, D3 series days). Thing is, the Phase backs are so easy to set up and use because... there is basically nothing to set up the menu offer very few options, and these are laid out pretty self-explanatorily. I never handled an S2 (which I am sure it is pretty easy to use as everyone reports), and only briefly Hassy backs, which looked pretty straightforward to me as well, but honestly I cannot see how it may be easier than a P45+
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    With no intention to fuel any polemics or anything like that, I would like to add a quick note re: simplicity of use of the Phase backs, from an user's point of view.

    It took me about 20 seconds to set one up and start shooting, and the Phase camera took 30 seconds more to change a couple of custom settings to suit my shooting style better (basically, AF from the AFL button, as I am used from my Nikon F5 & D2x, D3 series days). Thing is, the Phase backs are so easy to set up and use because... there is basically nothing to set up the menu offer very few options, and these are laid out pretty self-explanatorily. I never handled an S2 (which I am sure it is pretty easy to use as everyone reports), and only briefly Hassy backs, which looked pretty straightforward to me as well, but honestly I cannot see how it may be easier than a P45+
    Not being an experienced H user so far, but the same is true for the H backs and the H camera. But what makes a huge difference for me is how I can hold the H camera compared to the Phase camera - H feels much more built into my hands - grip size, placing of controls etc.

    I just once held the S2 and it felt perfect - well I was long years using R8 and R9, so in terms of ergonomics this is pretty close - thus no big surprise!

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    With no intention to fuel any polemics or anything like that, I would like to add a quick note re: simplicity of use of the Phase backs, from an user's point of view.

    It took me about 20 seconds to set one up and start shooting, and the Phase camera took 30 seconds more to change a couple of custom settings to suit my shooting style better (basically, AF from the AFL button, as I am used from my Nikon F5 & D2x, D3 series days). Thing is, the Phase backs are so easy to set up and use because... there is basically nothing to set up the menu offer very few options, and these are laid out pretty self-explanatorily. I never handled an S2 (which I am sure it is pretty easy to use as everyone reports), and only briefly Hassy backs, which looked pretty straightforward to me as well, but honestly I cannot see how it may be easier than a P45+
    Vieri, my experience with a Phase One back on a Mamiya body was the same: place the back as if it was film back; make a couple of minor adjustments as if it was a Canon 5D; compose and shoot. I hadn't shot medium format in many, many years, so one could also factor in the lack of recent experience with the format.

    Of course, improvement comes with use, but this has less to do with technical settings, and more to do with the "dance of familiarity", which applies to all systems.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Not being an experienced H user so far, but the same is true for the H backs and the H camera. But what makes a huge difference for me is how I can hold the H camera compared to the Phase camera - H feels much more built into my hands - grip size, placing of controls etc.

    I just once held the S2 and it felt perfect - well I was long years using R8 and R9, so in terms of ergonomics this is pretty close - thus no big surprise!
    Peter, I am glad to see that H backs and cameras offer the same ease of use. Regarding handling, for the it was the other way round, the H camera felt awkward in the hand while the Mamiya felt just right. I guess is one of those Nikon ergonomics vs. Canon ergonomics things - I have never been able to use Canon cameras, and I am sure there are people who can say the same about Nikon gear.
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Vieri, my experience with a Phase One back on a Mamiya body was the same: place the back as if it was film back; make a couple of minor adjustments as if it was a Canon 5D; compose and shoot. I hadn't shot medium format in many, many years, so one could also factor in the lack of recent experience with the format.

    Of course, improvement comes with use, but this has less to do with technical settings, and more to do with the "dance of familiarity", which applies to all systems.
    Oh yes, getting familiar with one system makes all the difference, in the end - as you said, this has more to do with one's feeling with one's camera than with the technical ease of setting it up, though - I am glad to hear that your experience with the Phase back was as good as mine.
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    The fact is, when it comes to knowledge of medium format systems, David is inexperienced.
    Remember that "inexperienced" is not equal to "incompetent". David has a lot of experience with pro photography, and I trust him not to go beyond his capabilities. One could equally well call you inexperienced with Leica systems, and you could not refute that statement any more than he can refute being inexperienced with MFDBs.

    I wish to get past this point-by-point arguing, and anyway, David has answered himself, so I will just take out what I consider to be the two weakest points in your list.

    Full service training with in depth instruction of both hardware and software is offered by informed dealers and is available for clients. David is implying this is required to become familiar with the camera. The fact is most users are able to get familiar with Hasselblad, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar backs/cameras within a similar period of time without dealer instruction. The vast majority of fee-based dealer instruction is spent on software.
    As he wrote himself, he has seen people struggle with MFDBs, so this statement is based on observation, not conjecture. When I got my Sinar, it took me a couple of hours to figure out a workflow and sift through the settings, and it still surprises me on occasion, like not wanting to shoot to CF when internal memory is full, as happened to me recently. Makes sense when you understand the architecture of the back, but you have to hit it to become aware of it. Another example: the Contax 645 refuses to meter when an MFDB is attached, but not turned on. Again, it makes sense when you think about it, but you still have to hit it to become aware of the issue.

    There are similar issues with each of the backs. MFDBs are just different animals, and to get the most from them, you need to learn a fair amount, from operation, often dual battery configurations, dual power buttons, and all sorts of other little things which other systems don't have. Yes, you could probably just pick up a Phase camera and make a shot within a few seconds, but that doesn't mean that you are getting good results. I don't see anything contentious in David's statement, to be honest. It is just like that, and all of us accept it, learn, and move on.

    The Leica S2 owner coming from MFDBs will have no problems. Pick it up, browse the menu once, use it. The S2 owner coming from DSLRs will find the camera much easier than the average DSLR. Leica has a special ability to simplify things, like with the miniscule menus in the M8/M9, the DMR, and now the S2. Anyone who has used any high-end system in the past, whether MFDB or DSLR, will find Leica cameras trivial to operate.

    Another way of looking at this: on the one hand you call David inexperienced, and on the other hand you say that the MFDBs you sell are easy to use. Those two statements contradict each other directly. If they so are easy to use, why is CI's experience so all-important?

    If David was familiar with the Phase One videos he would realize there is a video of the Phase One digital back and camera being used during a monsoon in India, during which the Canon system the photographer was also using, failed.
    This is the old "I know some guy..." argument and doesn't hold water, pun intended. It takes a very special photographer to make photos in the monsoon with a $30,000 setup which is not water-sealed. Most people would call it quits when the rain starts, a few hardier ones would last through a mild drizzle, but hardly anyone would stay in a monsoon. Maybe just one guy. With a weather-sealed camera this changes.

    One last comment:

    We talk about what we sell, not what we don't . Because what we find is that when we do talk about what we don't sell, we aren't that accurate. That's what is happening here. David should learn to follow the same course.
    I think that only talking about what you sell is a fine strategy. Saying what David should or should not do is presumptuous, however. Each of us can make our own judgement about that.
    Last edited by carstenw; 28th November 2009 at 01:13.
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I've tested the new system on several occasions over the last couple of months. I am keeping my observations to myself for the time being.

    It will be interesting for us all to come back to this thread in 12 months time and to go over the various aspects of this new camera system, providing that it is still produced and sold at that time and after a few people (well I do hope it'll be more than a few) have bought it, used it and made some money with it, maybe we'll even see some meaningful images on mag covers, in exhibitions etc.

    Until then, it is all talk and talk is....well...

    Yair

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I've tested the new system on several occasions over the last couple of months. I am keeping my observations to myself for the time being.
    Yair, I would be interested in hearing even qualified impressions from you.

    Keep in mind that if you don't risk a statement at this point, you will be staying on the bench next year when everyone else is jumping up and down, shouting "I told you so, I told you so!"

    My personal interest at this point is the lenses. From what I hear, the body is more or less what I expected, and the sensor the same. Perhaps I am a little surprised that high ISO isn't a tad better, but then, the camera isn't out yet.

    What surprises me is how many people find the lenses sterile. It has always been true to some extent that lens character is defined by aberrations. Look at the Noctilux or the 75 Lux for dramatic examples. Still, I expected a bit more from the new S lenses, I admit. I hope to hear more positive comments as more people get the camera in their hands and start to explore the lenses. Personally, I find the boke to look very nice in almost all shots I have seen so far, and the sharpness, vignetting, and distortion aren't possible to fault in the first two lenses. The new lenses appear to have a tad more 3D and a tad less magic than their smaller brethren...

    I also hope to hear that Leica will release a 100mm f/2 lens, for some portrait magic, a-la Zeiss 110/2 FE or Noctilux.
    Last edited by carstenw; 28th November 2009 at 01:20.
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    My personal interest at this point is the lenses. From what I hear, the body is more or less what I expected, and the sensor the same. Perhaps I am a little surprised that high ISO isn't a tad better, but then, the camera isn't out yet.

    What surprises me is how many people find the lenses sterile. It has always been true to some extent that lens character is defined by aberrations. Look at the Noctilux or the 75 Lux for dramatic examples. Still, I expected a bit more from the new S lenses, I admit. I hope to hear more positive comments as more people get the camera in their hands and start to explore the lenses. Personally, I find the boke to look very nice in almost all shots I have seen so far, and the sharpness, vignetting, and distortion aren't possible to fault in the first two lenses. The new lenses appear to have a tad more 3D and a tad less magic than their smaller brethren...

    I also hope to hear that Leica will release a 100mm f/2 lens, for some portrait magic, a-la Zeiss 110/2 FE or Noctilux.
    I thought about the same issue - lenses of the S System ...

    If Leica says these are the best lenses they ever designed, then that should mean something. Maybe it is that they are so good, that there are no more faults left to be seen in the final image, and maybe we are just used to interpret these faults as "character, glow, non sterile" etc etc. ?

    But I trust the lenses are exceptional per se.

    There is a totally different conclusion I am starting to draw: as the S System relies an that smaller MF sensor, which we have discussed to death meanwhile with all advantages and disadvantages, I just start finding the sensor size more and more the limiting factor - because of the following reasons:

    Leica will be able to maybe get up to 55MP with one of the next generation sensors, but you can already shoot 60MP today from Phase and soon from Hassdelblad and by the time Leica will introduce such a S3 (if that ever happens), the 60MP backs on the market will already be so mature that you probably can shoot very clean ISO 3200 without any SW processing etc. So Leica will always be following there.

    On the other side I truly expect the next generation DSLRs from Sony, Canon and Nikon be in the range of 35MP and most of them without any AA filter and thus being able to produce really stunning results, with all the wide range of features and lenses of such a 35mm DSLR system.

    So the S System will always be somewhere in the middle - getting pretty hard pressure from the 35mm FF DSLRs - IQ wise and price wise, while it will not be able to keep pace with the evolutions of real MFDBs for who is left - Phase and Hasselblad.

    And finally one thing I am very sure is, that even if the IQ of the S glass is absolutely stunning, one will never be able to get the resolution, details and finally IQ as compared to Phase and Hasselblad, even if you count in their necessary SW corrections for their "bad" lenses.

    Point in the end of the day: the System will remain in a very small niche also in the future, no matter what Leica does and how they speed up their production and development processes.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Gentle Readers:
    Referring to forum rules:

    .....

    Now, please return to your seats and carry on
    I am observing this thread since its beginning. I have never used a MFDB and never even touched any of the cameras discussed, although I am toying with the idea of buying one next year.

    I am amazed with how much fervor the S2 camp and the Hassy/Phamya/Leaf camp argue their respective positions. Somehow I have the feeling that the reasons is that the S2 proponents do so because they fear that the S2 eventually is not such big a success as they hoped whereas the Hassy/Phamya/Leaf proponents fear that the S2 may actually be appealing to lot of potential customers.

    I find the debate very entertaining so please continue.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Yair, I would be interested in hearing even qualified impressions from you.

    Keep in mind that if you don't risk a statement at this point, you will be staying on the bench next year when everyone else is jumping up and down, shouting "I told you so, I told you so!"
    The only statement I am willing to share in public at this point is that in my biased (but educated) opinion, the system is not ready yet to compete with most high end MF and 35mm systems, on many levels.
    Hence why it will be wise (at least on my part) to wait and see how it develops, not forgetting that the competition, on both ends, is also likely to move forward in the months to come.

    Yair

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    The only statement I am willing to share in public at this point is that in my biased (but educated) opinion, the system is not ready yet to compete with most high end MF and 35mm systems, on many levels.
    Hence why it will be wise (at least on my part) to wait and see how it develops, not forgetting that the competition, on both ends, is also likely to move forward in the months to come.

    Yair
    That could easily be true. It took years for Phase and Hasselblad on the high end to achieve where they are today with IQ. Even hiring the best engineers etc does not mean that Leica will be there in the first step. Maybe fast but not immediately. Nothing bad about this.

    Only thing is that it seems to be wise to wait from many different angels ....

    And only evolution will tell how the S System can then compare in a year or 2 with its competitors.

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    The only statement I am willing to share in public at this point is that in my biased (but educated) opinion, the system is not ready yet to compete with most high end MF and 35mm systems, on many levels.
    Hence why it will be wise (at least on my part) to wait and see how it develops, not forgetting that the competition, on both ends, is also likely to move forward in the months to come.

    Yair
    My thinking exactly.

    I am strongly leaning toward my final upgrade with Hasselblad to the H4D/60 which distances itself from the pack of 35mm dogs nipping at the heals of the lower end MFD backs ... at a trade up price + the Hassey extended service contract that totals less than just the S2 body. Plus, I am very interested in the new focusing system in the H4D which has real world value to me and the way I shoot.

    I took the time to carefully process the shots I had done with the S2 rather than the laptop ones I did in a rush while on vacation ... but also did a search of my archives for some shots I had done in identical beach conditions with a H3D/31 and 100/2.2 lens. That was a revelation itself in that we forget how good all these existing MFD systems already are.

    Also, I do not feel the same way about the form factor differences as others may, but fully appreciate their point of view. I have shot with 645 for so long it is second nature to me ... and the H system is very user friendly in areas that are important to me, like being able to compensate the camera or flash without removing my eye from the viewfinder. With a hand strap in place I feel as much or more stability for hand held work as I do the S2. I won't even reiterate all the "studio" reasons which has been covered to death already.

    While my decision is not totally complete, and I do greatly appreciate the opportunity to have used the S2, I doubt it is ready for my prime time use. Once the H4D/60 is in hand, and the next rumored step by Sony is here, it may never be my cup of tea.

    If I had been starting from scratch, and the MFD competition had not progressed past a 39 meg sensor and not progressed with their integrated systems and related software, it may well have been a different story.

    I actually dearly hope I'm in the minority, and the S2 is a raging success ... I want Leica to stay fat and healthy and bring me a M10 some day ... prefferably a real chrome version

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Jack,

    And finally PRICE $$$$$$$

    Final choice - Hasselblad.
    Like I said above, everybody's decision is ultimately going to come down to their perceptions of getting the best bang for their buck

    Actually, all we have to do is look at your buying experience -- rather the difficulty you had in finalizing your choice -- as outlined throughout a handful of threads in this forum just how close all of these systems are in that equation. And frankly, I think that is the real issue at play in this thread: this horse race is so close that there is no single, clear winner that everybody can agree on. Yet when we plan on spending the sums of money required, we all want to make sure our choice is the best one -- and with the present options, there simply isn't one winner to single out, but several...
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Remember that "inexperienced" is not equal to "incompetent". David has a lot of experience with pro photography, and I trust him not to go beyond his capabilities. One could equally well call you inexperienced with Leica systems, and you could not refute that statement any more than he can refute being inexperienced with MFDBs.
    I never said David was incompetent. He is well known for selling Leica and performing that responsibility admirably. Yes, I am inexperienced with Leica, this also does not make me incompetent. But the difference is I don't presume to make statements or claims about Leica that are inaccurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I wish to get past this point-by-point arguing, and anyway, David has answered himself, so I will just take out what I consider to be the two weakest points in your list.
    Yes, I agree, although you requested it and are further extending it, as I am also.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Another way of looking at this: on the one hand you call David inexperienced, and on the other hand you say that the MFDBs you sell are easy to use. Those two statements contradict each other directly. If they so are easy to use, why is CI's experience so all-important?
    If you'll read my response, you'll see I stated the vast majority of training is spent on software. Software is not easy. That goes for Adobe products, Capture One, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I think that only talking about what you sell is a fine strategy. Saying what David should or should not do is presumptuous, however. Each of us can make our own judgement about that.
    And I've made mine.


    Look, at the end of the day everyone here, David, myself, all the participants - wants to have some fun, wants to talk gear, wants to see and talk photography. I'm sorry to splash any hot water on that, I really, really do not want to. And I'm trying not to. But from our standpoint, these are expensive systems. You guys spend $40,000, $50,000 on these things. We take it very very seriously. We have a responsibility to ensure that you know exactly what you're dealing with. And whenever that "Quan" is disturbed through information that is incorrect, we come with factual information - that is clear. And this is all ok, it's usually just a harmless Gosh, I didn't know.

    But when a dealer who has established himself as a very respected source of information on Leica products, which now do compete with the products we specialize in makes misleading statements about the products that we sell - and that he does not - there's a problem. We are offended first off. It is disrespectful from professional associates. I've been seeing David do this for some time. I've communicated this to him privately once before. I know about the negatives of the H3D (all products have some negatives, even the ones we sell), but I don't talk about them publicly on a forum. That is not appropriate - in my opinion - to do so. I will talk about the products I sell and treat the products I don't with respect.

    Further, it disrespects one of the concepts of this forum which is to get to the information that is true, so I can buy my product (sometimes at great cost), spend my money wisely and in an informed manner, and start taking photographs. I will defend that concept.

    This whole thread has just turned into a downer and I have played a role in that. For that I am sorry. No one needs downer threads, but everyone does need the truth. Many on this thread have been back and forth at each other trying to get to it - that's not necessarily a bad thing. The end result may be worth it. But this may be my last post on this particular thread. And if I have been too pointed, harsh - especially with respect to David - I'm sorry it's been that way.

    Sio, I wil leave with my new tact -

    David, please I ask you without being harsh, without anything, just...talk about what you sell and what you know. You know Leica, you sell Leica. Talk about it, these photographers need to hear about it. That's it, just do that.


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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    the difference is I don't presume to make statements or claims about Leica that are inaccurate.
    ... I hesitate to say anything here, but keep in mind that every time someone writes a rebuttal to one of David's (or anyone else's) points, it is also a counter-point. In that sense, when someone overstates a point, they are making inaccurate statements about the Leica's products or the importance of some of its attributes. To state it more directly, when you say that one guy went into a monsoon with a Phase back and whatever camera, for example, you are overstating the case. This is not recommended behaviour with any camera which isn't weather-sealed, especially one which costs $40000-50000. In this sense, you are trying to play down a perfectly valid advantage for the Leica.

    I will stop here, but I think that maybe you can understand why I don't feel that the situation is as black&white as you have made it w.r.t. stating truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

    Yes, I agree, although you requested it and are further extending it, as I am also.
    Yes, you are right, and I will also stop after this post, and try to write nothing which forces you to respond.

    If you'll read my response, you'll see I stated the vast majority of training is spent on software. Software is not easy. That goes for Adobe products, Capture One, etc.
    Point taken, I had simply misunderstood your intention. Yes, the Leica *camera* is probably easier to use than the average MFDB-based camera, but you are right, there is also a lot of work in software, and here the situation is currently far from clear.

    Part of my beef with your initial response was not the content, but rather the lack of it. You simply claimed the high ground without substantiating it. You have since made some specific points, which I think are fair enough, and perhaps that post should simply have been the first.

    Keep in mind that David has taken a lot of flack in this forum. The forum is open, but it also has a very, very strong Phase/CI-biased element, with, what, 3-4 representatives and the owner posting here, as well as at least half a dozen customers. In that sense David walked into hostile territory when he posted here as a dealer. I am sure he is learning as he goes, but he has had to defend himself against some very unfair criticism along the way, and I am sure he feels at least as wronged as you do.

    Anyway, enough from me, back to the S2.

    ---

    I wanted to add something to my earlier post about the lenses, but got distracted by my little daughter:

    I think the end-to-end software workflow is really missing for the S2. One thing is to give Lightroom a nice profile and improving the sharpening, demosaicing, noise reduction and so on, but it is another task completely to outfit LR with a whole bunch of colour profiling and manipulation tools, and I feel that it is very weak here. Maybe Leica can make the colours perfectly accurate every time, but what if that isn't what is desired? Lightroom + Photoshop? Something is missing in this area, and I don't have enough experience to make a list.
    Last edited by carstenw; 28th November 2009 at 08:11.
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Carsten and Steve -- you've both said your 'piece' now make 'peace', any more commentary is just
    's

    PLEASE let's get it back to discussing how to go about generating better images...
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    We've made our peace, don't worry. I guess you meant piece

    This thread isn't about making images, but about drooling on red dots
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    How is this for a change of subject....
    Every time I buy a camera, the very first thing I end up doing is buying a camera plate or L bracket for it.
    And every once in awhile, I have to clean out the bin of left-overs after the gear is long gone.
    For one, i really like the convenience of using an arca-style quick-release but I am also a bit peeved about how the attached bracket changes the feel of the camera in the hand, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the particular L bracket and camera.
    Not wanting to hurt the bracket makers business but really, wouldn't it be nice if the camera makers just designed-in the necessary grooves, or considered the ergo-effects of an L bracket?
    The S2, with it nice organic-ish sloping sides will be butt ugly when one is attached. Square-ish cameras are changed less since they are already square. OTOH some argue that the L-Bracket provides a bit of a "roll-cage" and helps protect the camera from a drop.
    -bob

  38. #188
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Yes, very true, I have had the same thought myself. In fact, I think it might have come up in a discussion on this forum.

    I am personally miffed that there is no L-bracket in existence which fits the Contax 645 well, without the grip. The general RRS bracket is okay, but not great. I could add the grip, but why have a bulkier camera when all I want is an L-bracket? At the moment I just flop my ballhead over when I need to work in portrait-mode, but that has its own problems.
    Last edited by carstenw; 28th November 2009 at 08:53.
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    We've made our peace, don't worry. I guess you meant piece
    Using "piece" is indeed the most popular usage and implies you speak what's on your mind. However the use of "peace" implies the discussion is finalized -- and the latter is what I am telling you. So I edited my somewhat obscure inference for the benefit of absolute clarity...

    This thread isn't about making images, but about drooling on red dots
    No, only parts of it were. Other parts have degenerated into people getting their feelings hurt, people making claims they have no business making, and other people feeling the need to jump in and defend whoever is on the side they happen to agree with. And then those that feel they have to have the last word regardless...

    What I am telling everybody, is to CEASE those behaviors and get back to discussing cameras, images, techniques, etcetera. And disagreement in those areas is fine, just word your point of view on of those differences respectfully and impersonally.

    Finally, no need for anybody to reply to this, as mine is the final word on this topic

    I now return you to your normal -- and hopefully more pleasant -- programming. If this thread digresses one more time, it will be locked down.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  40. #190
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    if you use a raw converter which does not support the files than you can obviously get any (bad) result you like.
    peter

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Great. Allow me to comment.



    We offer this for FREE to any customers that want more in-depth explanation or help. I personally walk through products with customers all the time, and have done multi-hour-long web-based remote training on C1 and LR for those new to those pieces of software. Again, for free.

    What I was referring to is that just about anyone picking up the S2 can immediately and intuitively use it. Give someone a MFDB who has never used one and see how long it takes them to figure it out. Perhaps this is just my opinion, but I've witnessed this lack of user-friendliness first hand, thus the basis for my original statement. Perhaps when you get a chance to use the S2, you will agree.



    Yes, my inexperience extends to not watching all the Phase One promotional videos. Can you please clarify the extent to which the Phase One system is weather sealed? Are you, CI, and/or Phase One implying that it is safe for photographers to use their systems in these conditions without having to worry about functional failures or damage? If yes, then I was unaware and I apologize. Have you personally shot with a Phase system in these kinds of conditions?



    Is Phase One really a majority shareholder or just an investor? This has been unclear from the press releases as both companies are privately held. If this is the case, why is Phase One partnering with Schneider for the upcoming LS lenses? And, being a shareholder, majority or otherwise, still doesn't make Phase One an optics company.

    Hasselblad has only recently started doing lens design. Before the H system, all lenses were designed and built for them by Zeiss. Not implying that they are bad lenses, I'm just stating that this experience is fairly new. Leica (Leitz) has been making optics since 1847, just a wee bit longer than most.



    I must be very lucky then! Attached are two crops from two different P65+ backs (one from PhotoPlus in NYC and the other from our recent studio event here in FL), both of which show a quadrant center-fold. I thought this was a pretty well-known P65+/LR issue.



    Can you tell me how many shots you did that day? 300-500 shots? At our S2 studio event last weekend, the S2 was still showing a half charge after 700 shots and being on continually for 6 hours straight. Also, consider that the S2 uses a single battery for camera, lens, and digital function, not a battery for the back and six AA batteries for the camera.



    I said "in most" cases, not "in all" cases. In order to use the upcoming 60MP back from Hasselblad, you need to upgrade from the H3D to the H4D body. Users of the H2D had to upgrade to the H3D in order to use lenses like the 28H CD or 35-90 HCD. In order to take advantage of the new CCD sync on the P40+ and P65+, you also need to upgrade to the new 645DF body. So while in some cases, a simple back upgrade on the same body will get you addition features, in other cases you need to upgrade everything in order to gain features or performance.

    As I mentioned in my previous post to ddk, I really don't like to go on a item-by-item back and forth, creating forum thread drama, but in this case I am again addressing the facts. The implication that I am a liar or misleading people with bad information is not just untrue - it seems unsubstantiated.

    The bottom line is photographers will see for themselves first hand what works for them in their shooting conditions, in their hands, with their vision, and their workflow. Simple as that. So, until then, people who have actually used the camera can continue to share their experiences with it to provide a variety of perspectives to those who haven't been able to try it yet.

    David

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    how about an expanded arca type plate that would allow you to mount an adjustable bellows/hood/compendium/mattebox rig on rods, keeping it independent of the lens.
    I was met with a blank stare when I asked s2 project manager, stephen shultz about if such a thing was in the pipeline.
    I am sure there are some cinemaphotography aftermarket matteboxes that can be made to work but it would be nice to have a dedicated professional hood ( with 2 stages ) to work with. I asked him how would he operate a polarizer on the lens with their standard lens hood attached via bayonet..after a pause he said it would not be easy to rotate a polarizer.
    For me this ties into the "sterile" comment before.. I love sharp, close to perfect lenses to start with, but I like the ability to put things between the lens and subject to alter this perfect rendering into a more subjective take..sure, you can do lots with post and these lenses are pretty resilient to lens flare but that is how I like to shoot.
    regarding this forum, I hope the level of passion is maintained, I would hate to see it so milktoast that one is restrained from popping off some sharp diatribe. I find those both entertaining and educational...I would hate to live in a world where we all just drive priuses because it is the cost-effective way to get around. Now don't jump on me for comparing phase with a prius.. just an analogy.

  42. #192
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Using "piece" is indeed the most popular usage and implies you speak what's on your mind. However the use of "peace" implies the discussion is finalized -- and the latter is what I am telling you. So I edited my somewhat obscure inference for the benefit of absolute clarity...



    No, only parts of it were. Other parts have degenerated into people getting their feelings hurt, people making claims they have no business making, and other people feeling the need to jump in and defend whoever is on the side they happen to agree with. And then those that feel they have to have the last word regardless...

    What I am telling everybody, is to CEASE those behaviors and get back to discussing cameras, images, techniques, etcetera. And disagreement in those areas is fine, just word your point of view on of those differences respectfully and impersonally.

    Finally, no need for anybody to reply to this, as mine is the final word on this topic

    I now return you to your normal -- and hopefully more pleasant -- programming. If this thread digresses one more time, it will be locked down.
    Just walked in the door after holiday but after reading this lovely thread of complete nonsense I agree with Jack.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  43. #193
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmoore View Post
    how about an expanded arca type plate that would allow you to mount an adjustable bellows/hood/compendium/mattebox rig on rods, keeping it independent of the lens.
    I was met with a blank stare when I asked s2 project manager, stephen shultz about if such a thing was in the pipeline.
    I am sure there are some cinemaphotography aftermarket matteboxes that can be made to work but it would be nice to have a dedicated professional hood ( with 2 stages ) to work with. I asked him how would he operate a polarizer on the lens with their standard lens hood attached via bayonet..after a pause he said it would not be easy to rotate a polarizer.
    For me this ties into the "sterile" comment before.. I love sharp, close to perfect lenses to start with, but I like the ability to put things between the lens and subject to alter this perfect rendering into a more subjective take..sure, you can do lots with post and these lenses are pretty resilient to lens flare but that is how I like to shoot.
    regarding this forum, I hope the level of passion is maintained, I would hate to see it so milktoast that one is restrained from popping off some sharp diatribe. I find those both entertaining and educational...I would hate to live in a world where we all just drive priuses because it is the cost-effective way to get around. Now don't jump on me for comparing phase with a prius.. just an analogy.
    I noticed, with some envy, that Cambo had incorporated a standard spigot in their new leveling base which is all kinds of useful.
    That would be a good addition to our ideal bracket too and might be useful for attaching more than just a flex arm and clip for use as a flag. If on the bracket it would move with the lens and be a lot more practice than a similar thing hanging off a C-stand.
    -bob

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Camera's are funny things
    This last week I shot two jobs one with a H3d2-39 and the other the H3d2-31 plus the usual 5D2 stuff, yet the camera I just can't put down is the GF-1.... go figure
    am

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    from fotografz:
    "...also did a search of my archives for some shots I had done in identical beach conditions with a H3D/31 and 100/2.2 lens. That was a revelation itself in that we forget how good all these existing MFD systems already are."

    amen to that!

  46. #196
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Yes, very true, I have had the same thought myself. In fact, I think it might have come up in a discussion on this forum.

    I am personally miffed that there is no L-bracket in existence which fits the Contax 645 well, without the grip. The general RRS bracket is okay, but not great. I could add the grip, but why have a bulkier camera when all I want is an L-bracket? At the moment I just flop my ballhead over when I need to work in portrait-mode, but that has its own problems.
    Problem solved...get the 203FE and shoot square. :>)

    Steve

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    How is this for a change of subject....
    Every time I buy a camera, the very first thing I end up doing is buying a camera plate or L bracket for it.
    And every once in awhile, I have to clean out the bin of left-overs after the gear is long gone.
    For one, i really like the convenience of using an arca-style quick-release but I am also a bit peeved about how the attached bracket changes the feel of the camera in the hand, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the particular L bracket and camera.
    Not wanting to hurt the bracket makers business but really, wouldn't it be nice if the camera makers just designed-in the necessary grooves, or considered the ergo-effects of an L bracket?
    The S2, with it nice organic-ish sloping sides will be butt ugly when one is attached. Square-ish cameras are changed less since they are already square. OTOH some argue that the L-Bracket provides a bit of a "roll-cage" and helps protect the camera from a drop.
    -bob
    Actually Bob this is what hasselblad did. However they didn't go the ARCA route but rather a proprietary one for Hasselblad adapters. These were actually very good but waaaay out of the mainstream.

    Woody

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Actually Bob this is what hasselblad did. However they didn't go the ARCA route but rather a proprietary one for Hasselblad adapters. These were actually very good but waaaay out of the mainstream.

    Woody
    A non-solution.
    -bob

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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsrfun View Post
    Problem solved...get the 203FE and shoot square. :>)

    Steve
    One day when the prices of the CFV39 come down, I will examine what quality I would get from that combo. The CFV is too small though, physically and resolution.
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  50. #200
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    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    How is this for a change of subject....
    Every time I buy a camera, the very first thing I end up doing is buying a camera plate or L bracket for it.
    And every once in awhile, I have to clean out the bin of left-overs after the gear is long gone.
    For one, i really like the convenience of using an arca-style quick-release but I am also a bit peeved about how the attached bracket changes the feel of the camera in the hand, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the particular L bracket and camera.
    Not wanting to hurt the bracket makers business but really, wouldn't it be nice if the camera makers just designed-in the necessary grooves, or considered the ergo-effects of an L bracket?
    The S2, with it nice organic-ish sloping sides will be butt ugly when one is attached. Square-ish cameras are changed less since they are already square. OTOH some argue that the L-Bracket provides a bit of a "roll-cage" and helps protect the camera from a drop.
    -bob
    I agree, Bob - my Rollei 2.8F has a built-in Rollei quick release base (just one of course as it a square format), and somewhere I have the tripod plate into which the base locks...why not one on the base and left side of the Phase camera?

    Incidentally, anyone know if the RRS L bracket for the Phamiya AFDIII is likely to fit the new Phase DF?

    Bill

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