S2 in the "Real World"

[Jack]

I think that's what we are trying to determine ... how ARE the lenses? Just because it has Leica stamped on it isn't enough to shell out this kind of coin. The competition is pretty stiff in this neck of the MFD woods.

Indeed the competition is stiff, and the "Red Dot" isn't necessarily going to be enough to carry a new system though to market maturity. No misunderstanding here, SEVERAL will buy the S2 simply because of the Leica name, but that does not guarantee sustainability.

Zeiss, Schneider and yes, even many of the HC optics. I mean talk about interesting ... Schneider AF lenses with leaf shutter action up to 1/1600th?
Frankly, that's as interesting to me as this S2 is. I'd LOVE to see that new Phase One system in action ...

Oh, oh,

Marc
:ROTFL:

Well my friend, I took that plunge a few days ago. (FTR, my decision was based on the facts it was a lot less expensive than a move to the S2 and my uses tip the scales in favor of a modular system. Plus my needs for a portable MF system are not significant and I can accomplish everything I want to on that front with my existing Canon DSLR.) So as soon as I get my new back, body and first LS lens, you will have as detailed a report as I can give, complete with studio strobe and Metz 54 raw files loaded online. Just don't blame me for the time it takes to download 60MP raw files!

 

[fotografz]

Sweden is elsewhere And it is manufactured in Japan, just to be clear.

What is?

My H back says made in Denmark. The camera says Made in Sweden. The lenses are Japanese made as is the electronic finder prism HVD-90.

Seems to all work so far. :thumbs:


-Marc

 

[stephengilbert]

Jack,

"I took that plunge a few days ago?" Which plunge? A new back, too?

Steve

(A new back. Wow, no more low back pain, no need for stretching. A dream come true.)

 

[fotografz]

Indeed, the competition is stiff, and the "Red Dot" isn't necessarily going to be enough to carry a new system though to market maturity. No misunderstanding here, SEVERAL will buy the S2 simply because of the Leica name, but that does not guarantee sustainability.



Well my friend, I took that plunge a few days ago... so as soon as I get my new back, body and first LS lens, you will have as detailed a report as I can give, complete with studio strobe and Metz 54 raw files loaded online. Just don't blame me for the time it takes to download 60MP raw files!

Oh Jacky Boy, you are such a BAD influence.

I mean I've cleared the wifey hurdle :thumbup:, and that smell wafting through the studio is my "black bag funds" burning a hole in my pocket. :ROTFL:

Then I get this swap Promo from a Phase One rep ... very tempting .... very tempting indeed.

Which LS lens did you get? So, you can shoot either LS to 1/1,600th OR FS to 1/4000th with the same lens?

Yummy!

Can't wait for your report !!!!

-Marc

 

[ddk]

David, Leica may be aiming at DSLR users, for all we know. Even if they got a large piece of the MF pie it doesn't amount to much.

I doubt it, the Mamiya ZD is a good example and it cost less than 10k. $40,000-$50,000 for a camera and 2-3 lenses is too much of a reach for most dslr users, sure some might but not most. This is MF with all its limitations and demands from the user, besides from everything that I've seen Leica is targeting the pro user, and pro rental houses.

As far as the MF pie goes, well, I have no idea how big or how small it is, but I'm sure that its enough for a niche player like Leica. What they have in the S2 is a niche product for a niche market...

 

[Jack]

Jack,

"I took that plunge a few days ago?" Which plunge? A new back, too?

Steve

Oh Jacky Boy, you are such a BAD influence.

I mean I've cleared the wifey hurdle :thumbup:, and that smell wafting through the studio is my "black bag funds" burning a hole in my pocket. :ROTFL:

Then I get this swap Promo from a Phase One rep ... very tempting .... very tempting indeed.

Which LS lens did you get? So, you can shoot either LS to 1/1,600th OR FS to 1/4000th with the same lens?

Yummy!

Can't wait for your report !!!!

-Marc

Yes, the latest PhaseOne trade-up deal was too good to pass up, so I jumped, trading my P45+ up for the P65+. I also took advantage of the added free DF body and half-price LS lens deal on any Hassy H trade in -- had an old H1 with 80 sitting in the closet, so my first LS lens will be the 80 from that trade-in. I really want the 110 though... Who am I kidding, in the end I'll want ALL the LS lenses anyway :ROTFL:

Only problem with my detailed report is the back will likely arrive well ahead of the new body and LS lens, and the strobe test will have to wait for that --- unless I can convince CI to loan me their demo set for a few days

And yes, you can shoot BOTH 1/1600th LS and 1/4000th FP with the same lens. Moreover, if I understood the info correctly, there is apparently a custom setting that allows the shutter selection to be automatic -- the lens defaults to LS mode for the LS speeds or when a flash is connected, and flips to FP for higher speeds when no flash is present. Sounds almost too good to be true, so you can bet I'll be exploring that aspect in a little more depth.

For you Marc, the one thing that could prove really interesting is the binned, 15MP ISO 3200 combined with a 1/1600th flash synch and capture at up to 1.8 frames per second. I am thinking those files converted to B&W might just have an interesting look to them...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

LOL spilled the beans . I'm trying like crazy to get the P40+ right now , just need MONEY..

CI is loaning us a P40+ and a DF body for our tests unless Jack get's his DF body first. Maybe a 80 LS will come but we doubt it in time for our tests . But I won't second guess Dave for a second he has pulled the rabbit out of the hat several times so we will to see what he and his crew can get in our hands.

 

[docmoore]

Wow,

P65+ and Schneider lens could get me back to Phase...loved my P20. I would need to change my Alpa DB adapter but that is a minor deal.:bugeyes:

Marc, the only information I have seen is a trade value on the H2D 39...have you received any specifics on the H3DII 39's?

Bob

 

[Jack]

Bob, I think the latest H trade-in is ANY H body and lens for the free DF body and half-price LS lens of same focal. The H backs all have different trade-in values toward the P back, depending on exactly which model they are. The deal is you need to trade in the body, lens and back as a package to get the full deal.

 

[cmb_]

Jack :bugeyes:


:thumbup:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Any loan sharks out there. LOL

 

[docmoore]

Bob, I think the latest H trade-in is ANY H body and lens for the free DF body and half-price LS lens of same focal. The H backs all have different trade-in values toward the P back, depending on exactly which model they are. The deal is you need to trade in the body, lens and back as a package to get the full deal.

I guess I need to contact CI this week.

Bob

 

[carstenw]

I doubt it, the Mamiya ZD is a good example and it cost less than 10k. $40,000-$50,000 for a camera and 2-3 lenses is too much of a reach for most dslr users, sure some might but not most. This is MF with all its limitations and demands from the user, besides from everything that I've seen Leica is targeting the pro user, and pro rental houses.

As far as the MF pie goes, well, I have no idea how big or how small it is, but I'm sure that its enough for a niche player like Leica. What they have in the S2 is a niche product for a niche market...

Huh? What is the ZD a good example of? A DSLR? An MF camera? I think it isn't a good example of anything in this context.

I am not sure why you think that most DSLR users need to switch for Leica to make money. A few would do it, and I am sure that they can pull this off. There are many pros who ditched their MF gear and are using Canons and Nikons simply because the MF is too slow, too crashy or too inflexible. The S2 revises this formula a bit, and for those users who it makes a difference to, the price isn't a real obstacle.

---

Boy, is everyone on the warpath again or what? What is going on here? Marc, I just said that Sweden is not in Japan and that the Hasselblad lenses ("our 'Glass'") are made in Japan. I think that isn't pushing it too far. I was not insinuating anything.

 

[Bill_Green]

While I agree that the camera looks, good, I don't know what images you mean. I can't see anything better or special about them. They are as good as expected from such an expensive system, but certainly not better. Still there are even people how actually thought that the DMR, was completely over hyped by a red dot.

I was talking about the images David posted on his blog. Hard to explain unless you have run a lot of files through a DMR, but it is easy to spot. There is a certain depth and rendering to the colors that's easy to spot. The DMR had it, the M8 never did but I think the M9 might (no experience with one, just seen some pictures). The Phase backs are stunning, but they render color differently when combined with Mamiya or Hassleblad lenses. The Leaf backs are closer. This is not an empirical "better," this my "better."

The chance of me ever owning a S2 is extremely slim because I seem to be heading toward a rangefinder when weight matters (80% of the time) and LF when it doesn't. Different strokes, right? But I will admire from a distance.

A dream would be to use a Canon SLR, M9, S2 and P65 with a LF camera all together. Perhaps I should start going to vegas a lot more often.

And my dream is all that along with someone else to carry them.

 

[Mike M]

I think that's what we are trying to determine ... how ARE the lenses? Just because it has Leica stamped on it isn't enough to shell out this kind of coin. The competition is pretty stiff in this neck of the MFD woods.

Zeiss, Schneider and yes, even many of the HC optics. I mean talk about interesting ... Schneider AF lenses with leaf shutter action up to 1/1600th?
Frankly, that's as interesting to me as this S2 is. I'd LOVE to see that new Phase One system in action ...

Oh, oh,

Marc
:ROTFL:

I'll try and explain one more time.

There are lots of great camera systems and lots of great lens choices. I think that the people that will CHOOSE to buy the S2 over other systems will mostly do so because of the lenses. I'm definitely not saying one is better than the other. Hasselblad, Mamiya, Zeiss, Schneider, Rodenstock etc...all of those are great lenses. Canon and Nikon make great lenses too. The only thing I'm saying is that the final motivation for a person to put down serious money on the S2 is probably going to come down to a preference for the lenses. Just about everything that the S2 does can be done by another system equally well or better. The only thing that truly makes the S2 different from other systems is the lenses. That doesn't mean they're better. It just means that it's different and offers one more choice. That's all.

 

[Mike M]

Your sister needs change her teacher since more than likely the designers screwed up that store and wanted to pass the buck!



What lenses are you talking about? As of now there are many gaps in their line up! And what makes you think that Leica's S2 lenses are going to be any better than other makers with years of experience in the MF field? You seem to forget that software and digital engineering is at least 50% of the equation in the design of a modern day camera, something that Leica is a relative newbie at.



This is as simplistic a comment as what was taught to your sister about the store, I very much doubt that Leica wants anyone to walk away from the S2. If they're having difficulty convincing experienced MF shooters is because they dropped the ball somewhere...

Dave, try being a bit less rude next time. I have no idea who you are or what bothers you....but don't insult me...I didn't do anything to you

 

[ddk]

Huh? What is the ZD a good example of? A DSLR? An MF camera? I think it isn't a good example of anything in this context.

Why not, it was the first of this kind of camera and at a realistic price to entice the dslr user, yet it failed...

I am not sure why you think that most DSLR users need to switch for Leica to make money. A few would do it, and I am sure that they can pull this off.

A manufacturer needs sustained sales to survive, a burst of a few sales at introduction wont do them any good if they can't maintain it. We get back to the same thing that MF puts limitations and demands on the shooter 35mm doesn't. The novelty can soon wear off once the shooter realizes that he/she isn't ready or equipped to handle MF.

There are many pros who ditched their MF gear and are using Canons and Nikons simply because the MF is too slow, too crashy or too inflexible. The S2 revises this formula a bit, and for those users who it makes a difference to, the price isn't a real obstacle.

We must be living in parallel universes Carsten since I haven't seen what, if anything the S2 has revised. Take a close look at what kind of deals Phase and Hasselblad are offering right now, do think that they'd be doing this if money wasn't an obstacle? Please lets not forget that this forum is somewhat elitist, there are very, very few people who actually need 40mp, 50mp or 60mp MF system? IMO the real news is Mamiya DM22 & DM28 systems and not the S2. These are proven systems with a complete range of lenses and a clear upgrade path for the future, and great pricing to boot. Leica hasn't addressed any of these issues and simply relied to hype and blind adoration of its brand. So please tell what have they managed to redefine?

 

[Jack]

Easy guys, let's keep it civil. And let's not assume every dissenting comment is an insult.

 

[Dave Gallagher]

Guys,

I have a few comments here. I think that my company and our reputation speaks for itself on this forum. We are not fanboys or have "obsessions" about gear. We try to educate ourselves first so that we can support and speak intelligently about the products in the marketplace, whether we sell it or not. Some know that we recently picked up the Leica line. This is highly unusual for us to have a line that we are not the experts on. This we admit upfront. I began in the LF world 20+ years ago and moved steadily into the MF world. Leica was not on my radar and never has been until now. With the introduction of the S2, it has spurred our interest as this product has the potential to be a crossover product into our commercial field. This significance is easily apparent.

With this said, we are experts in the field of high end digital capture. We are not a "jack of all trades" company. We do one thing and do it better than anyone else. And I strongly believe that I have assembled the best people in our industry as a part of the Capture Integration team. A company IS the people that represent it. Steve, Chris, Doug, and Karen are just stellar people and I am privileged to be associated with them. I apologize for this plug but I think that it is important to state where I am coming from before the rest of this post.

On Thursday, we will have a Leica Open house in my Miami office. Myself, Douglas, Chritian, Justin, and Roland will be there to answer your questions on anything Leica. We will have the S2 and the M9 for "real world" tests. We will have the usual models and refreshments but the signifiant part of this is that we will also have all of the following equipment:

Phase One P40+ and AF body
Phase One P65+ and DF body
Leaf Aptus II 10
Hasselblad H3DII 50

These are not borrowed pieces of gear. I own them. We use them. We know them.

Do you want to run a test? Do you want to leave with Raws? No smoke and mirrors, no agendas ,and no BS.

If you are in the area and would like to attend then we will love to see or meet you. If you would like to see any specific tests, please let me know and we will conduct them. Here is all the pertinent info:

http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/11/20/dec-3-leica-test-day/

Secondly, I hear a lot of questions being asked about the latest promotions from Phase One and their upgrade paths. If you would like any more specific info you can either click this link or contact me directly.

http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/11/20/best-upgrade-offers-of-the-year/

Again, I apologize if this comes off as a sales presentation post. I honestly do not mean it to be. I just wanted to let those who are interested in an unbiased presentation of all the high end products know that there is a place where that can happen.

Happy Thanksgiving to all the Americans and Happy Thursday to everyone else!

Dave Gallagher (e-mail Me)
__________________

President, Capture Integration
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[doug]

... I think that the people that will CHOOSE to buy the S2 over other systems will mostly do so because of the lenses.

If I were in the market for a MF system the lenses would be a big draw but form factor, handling and overall field usability would be at least as important to me. Combine the lenses, a bigger-than-35mm sensor and dSLR handling, and I get excited. Throw in weather seals and the pelican photo, and I get impatient for that 350mm APO-Elmar-S to hit the market.