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S2 in the "Real World"

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Folks,

sorry to say but valuations of files like "clinical quality" etc etc are something really showing - let me try to say this friendly - esoteric and artificial approach to digital image processing - I could have said in much more harsh words ;)

What is the real bad thing about the S2? Why do so many people get upset about this new system? Why does the red dot make people turn a switch in their brain and suddenly measure all and everything differently?

I like what the S2 produces so far. I also like the size and design philosophy behind this system and its flexibility. I like the Leica lenses - admittedly not knowing the S lenses but I am sure they will be outstanding.

Will you be able to produce better images compared to a different MF system? I dare to say no! It always will depend on the photographer to 80% and the camera to 20%.

Now WRT features like fast flash sync times - there are many situations which need this (photographers think they need this), but there are much more situations where you do NOT need it. And arranging your shoot accordingly makes this in many case unnecessary. So as you already can tell from my writing, I will almost never use and need it for what I do. So I could not care less about the shortest sync times etc etc.

But what I really care is easy handling, easy carrying and logical operation of the system - and the S system promises this.

There is one small issue and this is availability - camera and lenses. I really hope that Leica will be able to make this system available asap, because otherwise they will lose potential buyers, the ones who need a system in the next few months and cannot buy the S2 and some decent lens line up.

My 2c
 

Christopher

Active member
Well My guess it that we won't see a broader Lens line up till Photokina 2010. I mean not talking about lens specs or showing them around at presentations, I mean SHIPPING larger quantities.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
BTW - I heard that Hasselblad is actually owned by a Chinese company (family/imperium) - is that true?

Not that this is bad at all, I just ask myself then how constant and predictible the Hasselblad future will look like long term.
Hmmmm, interesting thought. In the long term.....Saab may be dead and gone, Volvo may be owned by the Chinese auto company Gilley and for my money....many Japanese products are the equal and in many cases superior to those made anywhere else in the world. The Koreans, Chinese, etc are not far behind in many areas. I don't believe there is any objective reason why the people and companies in these countries cannot design and build products the equal of anything made in Germany, Sweden, the United States or anywhere else in the world for that matter.

Face it folks, quality design and manufacturing is not and will not be the exclusive realm of Europe or the United States in the 21st century.....though many people will probably continue to believe so....and pay a premium in the markeplace for those products.

As always.....just my opinion.

Gary
The owner of 3 Hasselblad cameras, 10 Zeiss lenses, a Leica R8 an 4 R lenses.....so I'm happily "invested" in Sweden and Germany too. :thumbup:
 
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georgl

New member
Hasselblad is owned by a Chinese Company called Shriro. I think they payed for the deal to buy Imacon - which was a good and wise move. I don't think we see any major chinese sourcing in their equipment, either.
But they fired & outsourced most employees, from over 400 skilled craftsmen manufacturing the legendary Hassselblad-quality in Göteborg to 60-70 people, most likely some R&D and assembly work. The cooperation with Fuji was started long before with the XPan.
Are they willing to invest several millions for the next big step (whatever that may by, an EVIL-large-sensor-system, CMOS-based technology?) - that remains the question.

Phase One seems to be owned by a Family which is willing to reinvest, that makes it easer for them the make long-sighted decisions.

@bensonga
You've never seen low and high-tech manufacturing in the US, Germany, China, have you?
Don't worry, I'm sure you are a specialist in your own field which I know nothing about (or even worse: I think I know something about it...) and many people outside production-engineering and craftsmenship have trouble understanding the differences in production (ESPECIALLY in the 21st century).

Let's just say:
You can manufacture "Made in Germany"-quality in China, all you have to do is to adapt the standards (control, social, safety, education, environment...) - after a few decades you will end up with high-quality, for exactly the same price as in Germany...
Right now, the standards are horrible, their production methods are similar to the 19th century "Manufakturen" of early industrialism in Europe - workers can be exchanged, no craftsmen, no education, cheap, stable, manual processes and they just duplicate the know-how that foreign companies give to them with their "international production-network". This system is common, usually they have their HQ with their "root-fab" (in German it's called "Stammwerk" - I don't know a proper translation) in which they manufacture reference, new and innovative products. Once the well educated workers (that takes over 3 years in Germany - most people in Solms are not "trained-on-the-job"!) solved most production problems of this new product they source their know-how to low-wage-countries. That's what the big Japanese consumer-electronics-manufacturers do with China, that's why most "Made in China"-products are similar to the "Made in Japan"-products - it has nothing to do with the real performance (solving problems, being innovative) of a production system/site/philosophy/country.
Japan has much higher standards than China, and they still have a large consumer electronic industry - that's their advantage over Germany. I hope Leica is able to re-establish a stable supplier-network to manufacture cameras again, right now they have to source from elsewhere (like the Japanese ASIC and the US-american CCD - although all this technology is available in Germany) or have a hard time convincing specialists to manufacture parts for them (most of them work in quality-demanding areas far from consumer-products).

Yes, from a long-sight perspective the production-location makes a major difference, I think even the mechanical differences of the H-System over the V-system are significant to make this clear (although that's not just production, that's also development which also varies all over the world). I think the H-system would look entirely different if they had kept their craftsmen (they were also responsible for the state-of-the-art housings of Hasselblad-cameras - know-how simply thrown away) and yes, I know how a V looks after 5 years of hard use and how a H looks/feels...
Just like Canon and Nikon make similar cameras, because their mindsets/mentality is similar - do you think the S2 would handle, look and feel this way if it would have been developed by Pentax, Fuji or Mamiya? Production in Germany becomes important when they develop the S3, because of the tight collaboration with manufacturing it's easier to improve production/design. That's not Japan-engineering vs. German-engineering, it's about having the choice, I think it's a good thing that a quite different MF-system becomes available, although it's not the perfect choice for everybody.
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Man, why does Leica always bring out the worst in people?
These threads are rampant on LUF and I thought not a part of things here. I'll no longer read anything to do with the S2 until the thing is actually released as to avoid all the pre-release moaning and goings on...
Have to agree with you. I feel half the time I am reading a billboard sign, and the other half no one outside of Germany can build anything worth a lick. Than the added bonus is all the BAD or MISSING information I am reading. It's very tiring and counter productive to building friendships here. Frankly I have nothing left to say until the review.
 

Corlan F.

Subscriber Member
Folks,

sorry to say but valuations of files like "clinical quality" etc etc are something really showing - let me try to say this friendly - esoteric and artificial approach to digital image processing - I could have said in much more harsh words ;)
Don't worry, my skin is thick enough :) ...after 20 years (just double checked) dealing closely with high resolution digital files including from top photographers, advertising agencies and publishers around the world. I can take it, and more. No problem.

It's remarkable -though regrettable IMHO- that the Leica S2 subject's so touchy that it seems to bring so readily such ad personam argumentation. There again, no problem.

I'll point out that my comment was in no way intended as an attack against Leica or the S2 system, just a simple statement of what I and some other people obviously see from what's available now.

In one word, available samples files are ok. Just, nothing special. For now.

There's nothing wrong with this, maybe one's expectations for some "Leica magic" are/were too high or even unreasonnable. Well, after all we're talking about a super camera and not some machine tool, so in turn nothing's wrong with that.

Maybe in a clumsy way, poor choice of words, you name it, i'm not saying anything else than what other posters here -some with undisputable expertise- say otherwise, call it "grab the magic" "3D effect" "mojo" etc.

(note that far from being judgemental, in my post above i even strongly mitigated my opening comment)

Which brings to the second part of you post above, which incidentally reflects exactly my thoughts: if with their S system Leica is yet another MF high pixel count solution (which is a good thing) entering PO/Hassy/Leaf territory, and nothing more (again, nothing wrong with that) then what is left is mainly the form factor, a few -certainly useful for some- functionnalities, and the red dot.

That's perfectly ok.

All these specificities, form factor, features etc. have been listed and re-listed extensively here and in the other threads, and even though the debate is still open on some of them it's natural that some will perceive them as assets or even breakthroughs for their work, and some won't.

You simply can't expect everyone to get overly enthustiastic about it.

No problemo :)



P.S. btw it was not put "friendly" and i usually don't even care to address anything which starts with "you don't know what you're talking about" style opening statements -usually not common on this forum btw and that's also why many of us enjoy it- but that's probably to be blamed on the "Leica effect" ;)
And i'd be more than happy to discuss further about what you feel being a strong misconception in -as you put it- "digital image processing" , but it's obviously not the place nor the right time (the part related to the impact of "digital" in such areas of lens sharpness, 3D rendering, initial colour rendition... carries a lot of promises in itself :cool:).
And i'm even sure that in a less passionnate environment than a Leica thread we would come to a lot of mutual understanding on these subjects :)
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Here is where I personally stand concerning the S2 right now: (please forgive my "thinking out loud" ramblings):

I consider myself an important potential customer for this camera ... not because I'm special, but IMO because Leica and it's dealers have to treat any level of interested photographer dead seriously if the S2 is to succeed in the middle to long term.

IMO, that success will determine how far the system gets fleshed out to make it a viable professional choice. Leica is a business, and if something upsets the financial apple cart, the S2 could be added to the list of abandoned products ... not just Leica's abandoned products ... just survey the Medium Format landscape in the past few years ... including a so called "revolutionary" bottom-up design like the Hy6 with all new "digital" lenses from a VERY respected and experienced MF optics company.

The R system and the M system of optics is no guarantee that the (subjective) Leica trademark character will translate to medium format capture. I personally have stopped looking at it that way ... which opens up the mind to something new ... as yet not uniquely defined.

I also no longer view this as a 35mm DSLR replacement. Others may still see it that way depending on their applications. However, it has enough of those 35mm DSLR attributes to make it interesting.

If I were to position the S2 against some familiar product category ... I'd leave the adolescent sounding "Tweener" in the dust bin, and think of it as a "Crossover". I'd use the S2 in the same manner I used my H3D-II/31 which bridged the gap between 35mm DSLR and larger sensor 39 meg and up (now 60 meg) capture. The S2 form factor makes this much more appealing ... the price does not.

IMO, each photographer has to get real about their specific needs ... not a composite list of attributes compiled from 20 other different photographers on a forum.

At my age, and station in life, the S2 would be a last hurrah. I've retired from my advertising career and now only do photography for pay to supplement semi-retirement. For many, the economy has devastated the commercial photography business (except for those with long standing relationships like those Guy has maintained over the long years of his career). My "default" niche is shooting people in a number of ways ... with an occasional commercial job (but no where the volume I once did).

Where the commercial photography once totally paid for a MFD system, this would be an out of pocket expense. To me, that probably means offing my H system which is extensive and presents a daunting prospect in this financial market. However, that loss is relative. Since previous commercial "fees" basically paid for most of the MFD gear, it's more phycological than anything. Yet, the promo deals from both Hasselblad and Phase One DOES give one pause.

As to becoming outdated and in need of upgrading, I'll most likely become "outdated" before the S2 will. :ROTFL: I know enough about this stuff to know that this level of IQ won't become an Albatross around most anyone's neck if they buy into it. Even if I did think in terms of upgrading down the road (and shooting from my wheelchair), it's no different from upgrading a H camera which is integrated and also means a total swap out of camera and back. The difference is that the other MF companies acknowledge an upgrade path which is an unknown and unspoken aspect of the Leica S2. Perhaps less important to me than it may be to others at a different stage of their photo career (Amateur or Pro).

As far as service is concerned, it's still unclear how one would be treated unless paying the kings ransom for Platinum level consideration. There is no DAG or Golden Touch to ship stuff to fix it after a year is up ;)

Thanks for listening. Further thoughts or observations?

-Marc
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Leica can't produce enough M9s to satisfy demand - thats my first thought Marc. I have accumulated a great collection of M glass that does the trick for me in travel and weekend snaps - the S2 isnt going to do a better job ( for me) than my M8/and soon M9 combo will for hand held shooting - and will probably do a worse job in fact - if I need to do an occassional editorial type shoot with lighting - nothing is going to do a much better job than my Hassy ger anyway.

My second thought is that the S2 will become really interesting when I can buy a full set of lenses. So that gives me at least a year to think about things - and that is a very long time in camera design land.

My third thought is that the S2 forces me to keep at least one back for my technical camera use - and if I do that why not keep a body and a few lenses and if I do that..well...umm what exactly do I get from the S2 in portable hand held use that the M9 can't cover again? and (lets get real here) for studied work on tripod - the arTec or my Alpa blows everything else out the door over the hill and into the next county...no mirror box to worry about no optical compromises in design - just fantastic glass better than anything Leica makes for the S2 btw -:)

Good Luck and best wishes to all the early adopters I really want the S2 to do well in the market - but (this time) I wont be part of the bleeding edge vanguard - maybe wait for an S2.2 in due course - or not..wont make one iota of difference to me and my shooting or fun.

I dont need 50 or 60 megpixels and I dont need my investment in fun to depreciate by 2/3 p.a anymore - I am totally over the must have this or that gear envy - totally. So Hasselblad wont be getting me to upgrade and no I am not tempted to go back to Phase One either - just call me boring - I am over it all.

Nothing excites me as much as the M cameras - and to be frank I get more of a kick out of processing B&W than anything else in MF land - they are all the same files - all the same - as in all the same - thats why people arent seeing a special 'Leica' character to the files - because it doesnt exist-:)

oh it will exist when someone coughs up the cashola to play and posts their purchase on teh forums oo aaahhh wow - it will have to exist - because umm..well :ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

carstenw

Active member
My third thought is that the S2 forces me to keep at least one back for my technical camera use - and if I do that why not keep a body and a few lenses and if I do that..well...umm what exactly do I get from the S2 in portable hand held use that the M9 can't cover again?
I think that the logic would go that you keep your back for the arTec etc, and after that there is no reason to keep any other body. The S2 over the M9 gets you resolution, of course, as well as macro, tele, and so on. You may not need 50-60MP, but are 18MP enough, always?

I am totally over the must have this or that gear envy - totally.
Quoting for truth :ROTFL:
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
I confess.
I want one, In fact I want one of everything.
Now that is off my chest I have only 11 more steps to go.
-bob
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.

Could not resist the great offer (camera really 50% discount, although almost new and full Hasselblad guarantee).

I finally checked how I feel with Phocus this morning, processed some shots and must say, it is pretty good. And as I expect Phocus 2.0 to be even better this became now an area I feel pretty comfortable with. Do not want to compare with C1, but most of the functions I need (use) are there. Will need to change my workflow a bit, but I got used to that as this became a need now at least once a year for me anyway.

And finally the whole deal allows me to upgrade for a H4D/60 next year for again a very attractive offer - which is the really great news. Will see how I get along with the system and if it is ok for me, then I will shoot a Hasselblad 60MP back in a few months.

All that does not mean that I stopped being interested in the S System, maybe I will come back to that system in a year or so when there are more options and one can actually buy this camera and some lenses and there are decent profiles floating around. But for that amount of money I am not willing to take the pain of waiting, not knowing when I finally could get one and then have to live through all the child sicknesses which such a new system is poised to have. Well I really need a working MF digital solution by begin of next year!

As all the offers I got from Phase were not quite near the offer of Hasselblad it made my decision pretty easy :) sorry for them, but I tried really hard over the last 7-9 months, gave them all the chances but it did not work out - please understand this does not refer to my US friends of Capture Integration, who really were very helpful and friendly, but more to the local reps here in Austria. Hasselblad is light years ahead of them in terms of customer support and this is what finally counts with a very heavy weigth - at least for me!

Looking forward to get now into the H System :thumbs:
 
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ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well, congratulations! Is that an H3DII-39 or really the 1st gen?

I think you might need something between ultra-wide and portrait :ROTFL:
Thanks Carsten!

It is really H3D - I do not care, as it was really 50% off former list price and is almost unused - not sure where they found them :)

And as said I a thinking about upgrading to a H4D early next year, so I consider this an interim solution - else I fall so deeply in love that I do not want to miss it anymore. One thing I found about the H3D - it still takes film magazines, so this might be worth considering to keep it - not sure yet.

WRT lenses, yes I might need something in between, but I am actually thinking to get the HCD 35-90, so that might solve my daily needs in that range. Later I am also looking to get wither a 150 or a 210, or even a 300. But that will come later, first I want to be ready for landscape.
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Sorry Mark, I wasn't kidding...
actually, what I've been seeing in MF is far more the effects of motion blur and maybe even small blur due to noise reduction (need to take that OFF in C1 otherwise is smooths a lot at default.) I dont know about LR
You say, e.g. the pelican "it's 1/1000s! well yes, also a 180 (ok eq 140) lens and at maybe 4x blow up from the 100% crop, you are close to the margin of a solid shot.
With 1-2ft DOF these shots certainly do not mis focus, so I assume combination of other effects may smooth out.

On a monitor you also see 3x again (96-104 ppi instead of 300-400dpi)

SO, to me shots look in focus but a little soft. I assume minimal sharpening.

That all said, the Pelican shot is pretty impressive (about 20m away?)
Not to appologize for it, but my vernerable Contax, you remember the one I borring remind every one of ( :deadhorse: ) has AF problens in complex fields.

Mark, how WAS the AF in general? did it 'hunt' much?

regards
Victor
 
Hasselblad is owned by a Chinese Company called Shriro. I think they payed for the deal to buy Imacon - which was a good and wise move. I don't think we see any major chinese sourcing in their equipment, either.
But they fired & outsourced most employees, from over 400 skilled craftsmen manufacturing the legendary Hassselblad-quality in Göteborg to 60-70 people, most likely some R&D and assembly work...


....I think the H-system would look entirely different if they had kept their craftsmen (they were also responsible for the state-of-the-art housings of Hasselblad-cameras - know-how simply thrown away)
Seriously you drive me bananas. Maybe you missed my posting earlier...

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=160294&postcount=106

I know you like to say 'Chinese company' believing it to be derogatory, which I for one find offensive. It wouldn't matter to me if it was a Chinese company. Fact is Shriro is spread across Asia Pacific, HQ in Hong Kong, and family owned by the Canadian Mark Shriro.

Also you have no comment on Leica and it's factory in Portugal? Makes no difference to me but you seemed to be particularly offended by anything being made outside Germany?

The H system was designed starting before yr 2000 before we fired the entire workforce and replaced them with Toyota robots, as you like to put it.

Truth is (again), that the H camera is built in the same way as the V. Alloy chassis with wrap around steel. No different. Nothing has been 'thrown away'.

Guy is 100% right with his quote...

'and the other half no one outside of Germany can build anything worth a lick. Than the added bonus is all the BAD or MISSING information I am reading. It's very tiring and counter productive to building friendships here. Frankly I have nothing left to say until the review.'

I don't believe Germany is the be all and all of finest manufacturing. For example one of the finest Motorcycle exhaust systems is built in Slovenia, not USA, UK, Japan etc... and not Germany.

If it wasn't for Guy, I would carry on ranting. This arguing and lack of respect for the facts is tiring, so I will leave with a 'Peace Out Brother'.

:cool:

David
 
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