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S2 in the "Real World"

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ddk

Guest
David, I wasn't offended by your comment. I simply disagree with you and believe it is easy to see the point of focus in most, if not all, of the photos I posted and uploaded. My problem with your comment is that it wasn't "direct" as you purport, it was more like a slur without any objective evidence to support your statement. You put it out there as if it was fact and it is not.
It was not a slur Mike, the objective evidence is in your images and I can show it if you're open to me posting them! Even 2 out of the 3 model shots are out of focus or misfocused if you prefer.
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Since you've asked for it - I'll provide some examples of misleading or inaccurate information:
Great. Allow me to comment.

Full service training with in depth instruction of both hardware and software is offered by informed dealers and is available for clients. David is implying this is required to become familiar with the camera. The fact is most users are able to get familiar with Hasselblad, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar backs/cameras within a similar period of time without dealer instruction. The vast majority of fee-based dealer instruction is spent on software.
We offer this for FREE to any customers that want more in-depth explanation or help. I personally walk through products with customers all the time, and have done multi-hour-long web-based remote training on C1 and LR for those new to those pieces of software. Again, for free.

What I was referring to is that just about anyone picking up the S2 can immediately and intuitively use it. Give someone a MFDB who has never used one and see how long it takes them to figure it out. Perhaps this is just my opinion, but I've witnessed this lack of user-friendliness first hand, thus the basis for my original statement. Perhaps when you get a chance to use the S2, you will agree. :)

If David was familiar with the Phase One videos he would realize there is a video of the Phase One digital back and camera being used during a monsoon in India, during which the Canon system the photographer was also using, failed.
Yes, my inexperience extends to not watching all the Phase One promotional videos. :) Can you please clarify the extent to which the Phase One system is weather sealed? Are you, CI, and/or Phase One implying that it is safe for photographers to use their systems in these conditions without having to worry about functional failures or damage? If yes, then I was unaware and I apologize. Have you personally shot with a Phase system in these kinds of conditions?

Phase One is a majority holder in the Mamiya corporation, which I believe does indeed design and manufacture lenses, as does Hasselblad.
Is Phase One really a majority shareholder or just an investor? This has been unclear from the press releases as both companies are privately held. If this is the case, why is Phase One partnering with Schneider for the upcoming LS lenses? And, being a shareholder, majority or otherwise, still doesn't make Phase One an optics company.

Hasselblad has only recently started doing lens design. Before the H system, all lenses were designed and built for them by Zeiss. Not implying that they are bad lenses, I'm just stating that this experience is fairly new. Leica (Leitz) has been making optics since 1847, just a wee bit longer than most.

I have seen one incidence of density shift with a Phase One digital back with a Dalsa sensor out of the thousands sold and I have never seen a Kodak based Phase One back exhibit centerfold.
I must be very lucky then! Attached are two crops from two different P65+ backs (one from PhotoPlus in NYC and the other from our recent studio event here in FL), both of which show a quadrant center-fold. I thought this was a pretty well-known P65+/LR issue.

I've shot all day with Hasselblad and Phase One systems on 2 batteries. While the S2 will have improved battery life, it is not 5 times MFDB's.
Can you tell me how many shots you did that day? 300-500 shots? At our S2 studio event last weekend, the S2 was still showing a half charge after 700 shots and being on continually for 6 hours straight. Also, consider that the S2 uses a single battery for camera, lens, and digital function, not a battery for the back and six AA batteries for the camera.

Ridiculous. Phase One owners who upgraded from P backs to P+ backs could put the Plus backs on their existing camera and get every feature of the Plus units. Leaf Aptus S owners who upgraded Aptus got nearly twice the speed just by putting the back on their same camera.
I said "in most" cases, not "in all" cases. In order to use the upcoming 60MP back from Hasselblad, you need to upgrade from the H3D to the H4D body. Users of the H2D had to upgrade to the H3D in order to use lenses like the 28H CD or 35-90 HCD. In order to take advantage of the new CCD sync on the P40+ and P65+, you also need to upgrade to the new 645DF body. So while in some cases, a simple back upgrade on the same body will get you addition features, in other cases you need to upgrade everything in order to gain features or performance.

As I mentioned in my previous post to ddk, I really don't like to go on a item-by-item back and forth, creating forum thread drama, but in this case I am again addressing the facts. The implication that I am a liar or misleading people with bad information is not just untrue - it seems unsubstantiated.

The bottom line is photographers will see for themselves first hand what works for them in their shooting conditions, in their hands, with their vision, and their workflow. Simple as that. So, until then, people who have actually used the camera can continue to share their experiences with it to provide a variety of perspectives to those who haven't been able to try it yet.

David
 
It was not a slur Mike, the objective evidence is in your images and I can show it if you're open to me posting them! Even 2 out of the 3 model shots are out of focus or misfocused if you prefer.
You can't even get my name correct - it was quoted in your post. Lets just agree to disagree and move on. It really isn't that important - we aren't trying to solve world hunger afterall. We are both big boys and aren't going to loose any sleep over it.

It would be fun to debate the topic face to face but too much is lost in a forum exchange. I'd say you're full of crap and you'd say I'm full of crap, then we would have another beer or glass of wine or scotch or whatever and then we would debate each of our points again. Maybe someday we will have that chance, but for now it is not worth the bandwidth. This thread has degenerated too far already.

Mark
 

Christopher

Active member
I think it is no secret that the P40 and P65 have very strong centerfolds or even quad or 8folds, when looking at images in Lightroom. As far as I know the main reason is that officially both backs are still not supported by Adobe. Heaven knows if they ever will. However it is also true that I have never seen a Centerfold in Lightroom from any other Phase back.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Congratulations Peter! You've made a fine choice.

(However, I have to admit to a wee bit of confusion given the extremely positive comments you made after that recent C1 demo I gave you!)

;),
Jack,

this is very true, so let me try to answer a bit:

1) there are several features in C1 I really like, especially the ones you showed me last time.

2) WRT Color Correction - this works in a very similar way also in Phocus, as I could find out - one just needs to try to get the work done and dig deeper into it, which I must say I was too lazy till I really needed

3) After testing a bit Phocus I figured out that the additional workflow is just to use Phocus in addition. I always was doing RAW adjustments on my images in C1 and if I really wanted them for print out and publishing on my http://fineartphotography.tomsu.eu/ I was converting them to TIFF, because I had to finetune all images in PS CS4.

Now the only difference is, that I am converting the Hassi images to TIFF in Phocus and then store them in my gallery folders. And these I can then either handle from C1 or from PS CS4. And actually I could even apply all the nice features of C1 to these TIFFs as well, so I am just adding possibilities.

FInally I also can convert to DNG from Phocus, which allows me then the same additional finetuning in C1 - if I really need.

4) The offer was really great - half of list price for the H3D39 and the upgrade possibility to H4D for again a very attractive upgrade price! So I never could have been in that "low" price range with a Phase system.

Not wanting to go in a comparison discussion again, but I strongly believe that both systems - Hassi and Phocus - are on par with regards to IQ, which is finally what counts.

5) I have now a MFDB solution with all its advantages (flexibility) and disadvantages (bulky) but this is considered as a separate system for me I am using for landscape and thus it is more than ok.

6) I am still considering the S System, as an add on - I know a very expensive add on. But I see this over a timeframe of the next 1-2 years, till then the S System should have settled and matured and we will know if it is worth the additional investment.

Cannot wait to go on a shoot with you taking my new Hasselblad - will be great fun :D
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Folks, I came very close to locking this thread down today. One member crossed the line and insulted one of our mods and has been dealt with. So once again, let's keep this polite or I will close it down.

At the same time, special thanks to those of you who are trying to keep the thread on point and friendly -- it is only because of your efforts I have left it open, so thanks! :thumbs:
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I cannot help but add a few thoughts to this thread.

First is, these are just cameras folks, so let's remember we all share a passion for photography! :)

Next is choices will be made by most folks based on perceived bangs for the buck -- and the population of how those decisions are made will fall into a spread conforming to a normal, bell-shaped curve... So sure, true believers on the Leica, Phase or Hassy (or Leaph?) side will remain stalwart supporters regardless of results, as will the stalwart detractors on the other sides. But at the end of the day I suspect for most users it's going to come to deciding on the bang for the buck proposition. And that bang can be image quality, portability, system modularity, look from the lenses, breadth and depth of lenses and accessories, or even just brand name, or whatever the heck else yanks their cranks -- but at at the specific price-point thresholds for each individual. So in the end, there's not going to be one right or wrong choice, only different choices based on differing needs, biases and means.

Damn, that is good, isn't it? I may use that paragraph as my new standard test disclaimer!!! :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
Jack,

just reading through all of this right now, YES, this paragraph from you is REALLY good ;) no kidding!

WRT choices - most of you in this forum on the MF threads know my thoughts and I was long time kind of more leaning towards Phase because of their backs and because of C1. I almost always excluded Hasselblad during this time, mainly because of SW. Then there is of course the S2 and I must say I feel really fascinated by this system, till today!

Now, after waiting and waiting for the S2 and after several delays and my assumption it will take another year or so till more lenses choices will be available this became finally a kind of blocker for immediate purchase of an S System. I need a MF system by begin of next year.

Then I tried to get a good offer for Phase, as this was my preferred choice, but did not come true. Main reason is the pricing structure of Phase, which obviously puts a lot of pressure also on the Phase partners in terms of pricing and discount. Yes there are some good trade in offers, but finally these make only really sense as long as you have some MF gear for trade in.

As I was still without any MF equipment till yesterday, all these offers did not really appeal to me. And then there was the Hasselblad offer. Hm, I thought lets check Phocus and see how I can get along with it. Knowing all the good stuff of C1 for my workflow. And here we go - turned out that this SW package was not so bad as I thought, on the Hasselblad files it does great magic and produces high IQ - not much to wonder about, but also most of the features I need for my RAW post processing were available and in a similar way as intuitive as the C1 counterparts - this is my very personal evaluation I must say!

So what was the blocking for not jumping into Hasselblad? Closed system? I do not care as it is actually open for me as I can upgrade with all the issues you have also with other systems and you can use tech cameras too, actually much better because you need then to use the external image bank to the back which gives you much more choices in terms of battery and storage than a Phase back on a tech camera.

SW? No longer for me as I found out!

Lens lineup? Actually the most complete lineup I could find for any MF system - again my very personal choice.

Camera? For me the H camera was always better in handling than the Phamiya - personal preference again. And I still do not say it is a lovely and sexy camera, as it is bulky and big and heavy - well but it is MF!

Support - Hasselblad absolutely the best - light years ahead from competition here in Austria!

And finally PRICE $$$$$$$

Final choice - Hasselblad.
 

vieri

Well-known member
With no intention to fuel any polemics or anything like that, I would like to add a quick note re: simplicity of use of the Phase backs, from an user's point of view.

It took me about 20 seconds to set one up and start shooting, and the Phase camera took 30 seconds more to change a couple of custom settings to suit my shooting style better (basically, AF from the AFL button, as I am used from my Nikon F5 & D2x, D3 series days). Thing is, the Phase backs are so easy to set up and use because... there is basically nothing to set up :D the menu offer very few options, and these are laid out pretty self-explanatorily. I never handled an S2 (which I am sure it is pretty easy to use as everyone reports), and only briefly Hassy backs, which looked pretty straightforward to me as well, but honestly I cannot see how it may be easier than a P45+ :D
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
With no intention to fuel any polemics or anything like that, I would like to add a quick note re: simplicity of use of the Phase backs, from an user's point of view.

It took me about 20 seconds to set one up and start shooting, and the Phase camera took 30 seconds more to change a couple of custom settings to suit my shooting style better (basically, AF from the AFL button, as I am used from my Nikon F5 & D2x, D3 series days). Thing is, the Phase backs are so easy to set up and use because... there is basically nothing to set up :D the menu offer very few options, and these are laid out pretty self-explanatorily. I never handled an S2 (which I am sure it is pretty easy to use as everyone reports), and only briefly Hassy backs, which looked pretty straightforward to me as well, but honestly I cannot see how it may be easier than a P45+ :D
Not being an experienced H user so far, but the same is true for the H backs and the H camera. But what makes a huge difference for me is how I can hold the H camera compared to the Phase camera - H feels much more built into my hands - grip size, placing of controls etc.

I just once held the S2 and it felt perfect - well I was long years using R8 and R9, so in terms of ergonomics this is pretty close - thus no big surprise!
 

Dale Allyn

New member
With no intention to fuel any polemics or anything like that, I would like to add a quick note re: simplicity of use of the Phase backs, from an user's point of view.

It took me about 20 seconds to set one up and start shooting, and the Phase camera took 30 seconds more to change a couple of custom settings to suit my shooting style better (basically, AF from the AFL button, as I am used from my Nikon F5 & D2x, D3 series days). Thing is, the Phase backs are so easy to set up and use because... there is basically nothing to set up :D the menu offer very few options, and these are laid out pretty self-explanatorily. I never handled an S2 (which I am sure it is pretty easy to use as everyone reports), and only briefly Hassy backs, which looked pretty straightforward to me as well, but honestly I cannot see how it may be easier than a P45+ :D
Vieri, my experience with a Phase One back on a Mamiya body was the same: place the back as if it was film back; make a couple of minor adjustments as if it was a Canon 5D; compose and shoot. I hadn't shot medium format in many, many years, so one could also factor in the lack of recent experience with the format.

Of course, improvement comes with use, but this has less to do with technical settings, and more to do with the "dance of familiarity", which applies to all systems.
 

vieri

Well-known member
Not being an experienced H user so far, but the same is true for the H backs and the H camera. But what makes a huge difference for me is how I can hold the H camera compared to the Phase camera - H feels much more built into my hands - grip size, placing of controls etc.

I just once held the S2 and it felt perfect - well I was long years using R8 and R9, so in terms of ergonomics this is pretty close - thus no big surprise!
Peter, I am glad to see that H backs and cameras offer the same ease of use. Regarding handling, for the it was the other way round, the H camera felt awkward in the hand while the Mamiya felt just right. I guess is one of those Nikon ergonomics vs. Canon ergonomics things - I have never been able to use Canon cameras, and I am sure there are people who can say the same about Nikon gear.
 

vieri

Well-known member
Vieri, my experience with a Phase One back on a Mamiya body was the same: place the back as if it was film back; make a couple of minor adjustments as if it was a Canon 5D; compose and shoot. I hadn't shot medium format in many, many years, so one could also factor in the lack of recent experience with the format.

Of course, improvement comes with use, but this has less to do with technical settings, and more to do with the "dance of familiarity", which applies to all systems.
Oh yes, getting familiar with one system makes all the difference, in the end - as you said, this has more to do with one's feeling with one's camera than with the technical ease of setting it up, though - I am glad to hear that your experience with the Phase back was as good as mine. :D
 

carstenw

Active member
The fact is, when it comes to knowledge of medium format systems, David is inexperienced.
Remember that "inexperienced" is not equal to "incompetent". David has a lot of experience with pro photography, and I trust him not to go beyond his capabilities. One could equally well call you inexperienced with Leica systems, and you could not refute that statement any more than he can refute being inexperienced with MFDBs.

I wish to get past this point-by-point arguing, and anyway, David has answered himself, so I will just take out what I consider to be the two weakest points in your list.

Full service training with in depth instruction of both hardware and software is offered by informed dealers and is available for clients. David is implying this is required to become familiar with the camera. The fact is most users are able to get familiar with Hasselblad, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar backs/cameras within a similar period of time without dealer instruction. The vast majority of fee-based dealer instruction is spent on software.
As he wrote himself, he has seen people struggle with MFDBs, so this statement is based on observation, not conjecture. When I got my Sinar, it took me a couple of hours to figure out a workflow and sift through the settings, and it still surprises me on occasion, like not wanting to shoot to CF when internal memory is full, as happened to me recently. Makes sense when you understand the architecture of the back, but you have to hit it to become aware of it. Another example: the Contax 645 refuses to meter when an MFDB is attached, but not turned on. Again, it makes sense when you think about it, but you still have to hit it to become aware of the issue.

There are similar issues with each of the backs. MFDBs are just different animals, and to get the most from them, you need to learn a fair amount, from operation, often dual battery configurations, dual power buttons, and all sorts of other little things which other systems don't have. Yes, you could probably just pick up a Phase camera and make a shot within a few seconds, but that doesn't mean that you are getting good results. I don't see anything contentious in David's statement, to be honest. It is just like that, and all of us accept it, learn, and move on.

The Leica S2 owner coming from MFDBs will have no problems. Pick it up, browse the menu once, use it. The S2 owner coming from DSLRs will find the camera much easier than the average DSLR. Leica has a special ability to simplify things, like with the miniscule menus in the M8/M9, the DMR, and now the S2. Anyone who has used any high-end system in the past, whether MFDB or DSLR, will find Leica cameras trivial to operate.

Another way of looking at this: on the one hand you call David inexperienced, and on the other hand you say that the MFDBs you sell are easy to use. Those two statements contradict each other directly. If they so are easy to use, why is CI's experience so all-important?

If David was familiar with the Phase One videos he would realize there is a video of the Phase One digital back and camera being used during a monsoon in India, during which the Canon system the photographer was also using, failed.
This is the old "I know some guy..." argument and doesn't hold water, pun intended. It takes a very special photographer to make photos in the monsoon with a $30,000 setup which is not water-sealed. Most people would call it quits when the rain starts, a few hardier ones would last through a mild drizzle, but hardly anyone would stay in a monsoon. Maybe just one guy. With a weather-sealed camera this changes.

One last comment:

We talk about what we sell, not what we don't . Because what we find is that when we do talk about what we don't sell, we aren't that accurate. That's what is happening here. David should learn to follow the same course.
I think that only talking about what you sell is a fine strategy. Saying what David should or should not do is presumptuous, however. Each of us can make our own judgement about that.
 
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yaya

Active member
I've tested the new system on several occasions over the last couple of months. I am keeping my observations to myself for the time being.

It will be interesting for us all to come back to this thread in 12 months time and to go over the various aspects of this new camera system, providing that it is still produced and sold at that time and after a few people (well I do hope it'll be more than a few) have bought it, used it and made some money with it, maybe we'll even see some meaningful images on mag covers, in exhibitions etc.

Until then, it is all talk and talk is....well...

Yair
 

carstenw

Active member
I've tested the new system on several occasions over the last couple of months. I am keeping my observations to myself for the time being.
Yair, I would be interested in hearing even qualified impressions from you.

Keep in mind that if you don't risk a statement at this point, you will be staying on the bench next year when everyone else is jumping up and down, shouting "I told you so, I told you so!" :D

My personal interest at this point is the lenses. From what I hear, the body is more or less what I expected, and the sensor the same. Perhaps I am a little surprised that high ISO isn't a tad better, but then, the camera isn't out yet.

What surprises me is how many people find the lenses sterile. It has always been true to some extent that lens character is defined by aberrations. Look at the Noctilux or the 75 Lux for dramatic examples. Still, I expected a bit more from the new S lenses, I admit. I hope to hear more positive comments as more people get the camera in their hands and start to explore the lenses. Personally, I find the boke to look very nice in almost all shots I have seen so far, and the sharpness, vignetting, and distortion aren't possible to fault in the first two lenses. The new lenses appear to have a tad more 3D and a tad less magic than their smaller brethren...

I also hope to hear that Leica will release a 100mm f/2 lens, for some portrait magic, a-la Zeiss 110/2 FE or Noctilux.
 
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ptomsu

Workshop Member
My personal interest at this point is the lenses. From what I hear, the body is more or less what I expected, and the sensor the same. Perhaps I am a little surprised that high ISO isn't a tad better, but then, the camera isn't out yet.

What surprises me is how many people find the lenses sterile. It has always been true to some extent that lens character is defined by aberrations. Look at the Noctilux or the 75 Lux for dramatic examples. Still, I expected a bit more from the new S lenses, I admit. I hope to hear more positive comments as more people get the camera in their hands and start to explore the lenses. Personally, I find the boke to look very nice in almost all shots I have seen so far, and the sharpness, vignetting, and distortion aren't possible to fault in the first two lenses. The new lenses appear to have a tad more 3D and a tad less magic than their smaller brethren...

I also hope to hear that Leica will release a 100mm f/2 lens, for some portrait magic, a-la Zeiss 110/2 FE or Noctilux.
I thought about the same issue - lenses of the S System ...

If Leica says these are the best lenses they ever designed, then that should mean something. Maybe it is that they are so good, that there are no more faults left to be seen in the final image, and maybe we are just used to interpret these faults as "character, glow, non sterile" etc etc. ?

But I trust the lenses are exceptional per se.

There is a totally different conclusion I am starting to draw: as the S System relies an that smaller MF sensor, which we have discussed to death meanwhile with all advantages and disadvantages, I just start finding the sensor size more and more the limiting factor - because of the following reasons:

Leica will be able to maybe get up to 55MP with one of the next generation sensors, but you can already shoot 60MP today from Phase and soon from Hassdelblad and by the time Leica will introduce such a S3 (if that ever happens), the 60MP backs on the market will already be so mature that you probably can shoot very clean ISO 3200 without any SW processing etc. So Leica will always be following there.

On the other side I truly expect the next generation DSLRs from Sony, Canon and Nikon be in the range of 35MP and most of them without any AA filter and thus being able to produce really stunning results, with all the wide range of features and lenses of such a 35mm DSLR system.

So the S System will always be somewhere in the middle - getting pretty hard pressure from the 35mm FF DSLRs - IQ wise and price wise, while it will not be able to keep pace with the evolutions of real MFDBs for who is left - Phase and Hasselblad.

And finally one thing I am very sure is, that even if the IQ of the S glass is absolutely stunning, one will never be able to get the resolution, details and finally IQ as compared to Phase and Hasselblad, even if you count in their necessary SW corrections for their "bad" lenses.

Point in the end of the day: the System will remain in a very small niche also in the future, no matter what Leica does and how they speed up their production and development processes.
 

GMB

Active member
Gentle Readers:
Referring to forum rules:

.....

Now, please return to your seats and carry on
I am observing this thread since its beginning. I have never used a MFDB and never even touched any of the cameras discussed, although I am toying with the idea of buying one next year.

I am amazed with how much fervor the S2 camp and the Hassy/Phamya/Leaf camp argue their respective positions. Somehow I have the feeling that the reasons is that the S2 proponents do so because they fear that the S2 eventually is not such big a success as they hoped whereas the Hassy/Phamya/Leaf proponents fear that the S2 may actually be appealing to lot of potential customers.

I find the debate very entertaining so please continue.
 

yaya

Active member
Yair, I would be interested in hearing even qualified impressions from you.

Keep in mind that if you don't risk a statement at this point, you will be staying on the bench next year when everyone else is jumping up and down, shouting "I told you so, I told you so!" :D
The only statement I am willing to share in public at this point is that in my biased (but educated) opinion, the system is not ready yet to compete with most high end MF and 35mm systems, on many levels.
Hence why it will be wise (at least on my part) to wait and see how it develops, not forgetting that the competition, on both ends, is also likely to move forward in the months to come.

Yair
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
The only statement I am willing to share in public at this point is that in my biased (but educated) opinion, the system is not ready yet to compete with most high end MF and 35mm systems, on many levels.
Hence why it will be wise (at least on my part) to wait and see how it develops, not forgetting that the competition, on both ends, is also likely to move forward in the months to come.

Yair
That could easily be true. It took years for Phase and Hasselblad on the high end to achieve where they are today with IQ. Even hiring the best engineers etc does not mean that Leica will be there in the first step. Maybe fast but not immediately. Nothing bad about this.

Only thing is that it seems to be wise to wait from many different angels ....

And only evolution will tell how the S System can then compare in a year or 2 with its competitors.
 
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