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S2 in the "Real World"

fotografz

Well-known member
The only statement I am willing to share in public at this point is that in my biased (but educated) opinion, the system is not ready yet to compete with most high end MF and 35mm systems, on many levels.
Hence why it will be wise (at least on my part) to wait and see how it develops, not forgetting that the competition, on both ends, is also likely to move forward in the months to come.

Yair
My thinking exactly.

I am strongly leaning toward my final upgrade with Hasselblad to the H4D/60 which distances itself from the pack of 35mm dogs nipping at the heals of the lower end MFD backs ... at a trade up price + the Hassey extended service contract that totals less than just the S2 body. Plus, I am very interested in the new focusing system in the H4D which has real world value to me and the way I shoot.

I took the time to carefully process the shots I had done with the S2 rather than the laptop ones I did in a rush while on vacation ... but also did a search of my archives for some shots I had done in identical beach conditions with a H3D/31 and 100/2.2 lens. That was a revelation itself in that we forget how good all these existing MFD systems already are.

Also, I do not feel the same way about the form factor differences as others may, but fully appreciate their point of view. I have shot with 645 for so long it is second nature to me ... and the H system is very user friendly in areas that are important to me, like being able to compensate the camera or flash without removing my eye from the viewfinder. With a hand strap in place I feel as much or more stability for hand held work as I do the S2. I won't even reiterate all the "studio" reasons which has been covered to death already.

While my decision is not totally complete, and I do greatly appreciate the opportunity to have used the S2, I doubt it is ready for my prime time use. Once the H4D/60 is in hand, and the next rumored step by Sony is here, it may never be my cup of tea.

If I had been starting from scratch, and the MFD competition had not progressed past a 39 meg sensor and not progressed with their integrated systems and related software, it may well have been a different story.

I actually dearly hope I'm in the minority, and the S2 is a raging success ... I want Leica to stay fat and healthy and bring me a M10 some day ... prefferably a real chrome version :)
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Jack,

And finally PRICE $$$$$$$

Final choice - Hasselblad.
Like I said above, everybody's decision is ultimately going to come down to their perceptions of getting the best bang for their buck :D

Actually, all we have to do is look at your buying experience -- rather the difficulty you had in finalizing your choice -- as outlined throughout a handful of threads in this forum just how close all of these systems are in that equation. And frankly, I think that is the real issue at play in this thread: this horse race is so close that there is no single, clear winner that everybody can agree on. Yet when we plan on spending the sums of money required, we all want to make sure our choice is the best one -- and with the present options, there simply isn't one winner to single out, but several...
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Remember that "inexperienced" is not equal to "incompetent". David has a lot of experience with pro photography, and I trust him not to go beyond his capabilities. One could equally well call you inexperienced with Leica systems, and you could not refute that statement any more than he can refute being inexperienced with MFDBs.
I never said David was incompetent. He is well known for selling Leica and performing that responsibility admirably. Yes, I am inexperienced with Leica, this also does not make me incompetent. But the difference is I don't presume to make statements or claims about Leica that are inaccurate.
I wish to get past this point-by-point arguing, and anyway, David has answered himself, so I will just take out what I consider to be the two weakest points in your list.
Yes, I agree, although you requested it and are further extending it, as I am also.:(

Another way of looking at this: on the one hand you call David inexperienced, and on the other hand you say that the MFDBs you sell are easy to use. Those two statements contradict each other directly. If they so are easy to use, why is CI's experience so all-important?
If you'll read my response, you'll see I stated the vast majority of training is spent on software. Software is not easy. That goes for Adobe products, Capture One, etc.


I think that only talking about what you sell is a fine strategy. Saying what David should or should not do is presumptuous, however. Each of us can make our own judgement about that.
And I've made mine.


Look, at the end of the day everyone here, David, myself, all the participants - wants to have some fun, wants to talk gear, wants to see and talk photography. I'm sorry to splash any hot water on that, I really, really do not want to. And I'm trying not to. But from our standpoint, these are expensive systems. You guys spend $40,000, $50,000 on these things. We take it very very seriously. We have a responsibility to ensure that you know exactly what you're dealing with. And whenever that "Quan" is disturbed through information that is incorrect, we come with factual information - that is clear. And this is all ok, it's usually just a harmless Gosh, I didn't know.

But when a dealer who has established himself as a very respected source of information on Leica products, which now do compete with the products we specialize in makes misleading statements about the products that we sell - and that he does not - there's a problem. We are offended first off. It is disrespectful from professional associates. I've been seeing David do this for some time. I've communicated this to him privately once before. I know about the negatives of the H3D (all products have some negatives, even the ones we sell), but I don't talk about them publicly on a forum. That is not appropriate - in my opinion - to do so. I will talk about the products I sell and treat the products I don't with respect.

Further, it disrespects one of the concepts of this forum which is to get to the information that is true, so I can buy my product (sometimes at great cost), spend my money wisely and in an informed manner, and start taking photographs. I will defend that concept.

This whole thread has just turned into a downer and I have played a role in that. For that I am sorry. No one needs downer threads, but everyone does need the truth. Many on this thread have been back and forth at each other trying to get to it - that's not necessarily a bad thing. The end result may be worth it. But this may be my last post on this particular thread. And if I have been too pointed, harsh - especially with respect to David - I'm sorry it's been that way.

Sio, I wil leave with my new tact -

David, please I ask you without being harsh, without anything, just...talk about what you sell and what you know. You know Leica, you sell Leica. Talk about it, these photographers need to hear about it. That's it, just do that.


Steve Hendrix
 

carstenw

Active member
the difference is I don't presume to make statements or claims about Leica that are inaccurate.
... I hesitate to say anything here, but keep in mind that every time someone writes a rebuttal to one of David's (or anyone else's) points, it is also a counter-point. In that sense, when someone overstates a point, they are making inaccurate statements about the Leica's products or the importance of some of its attributes. To state it more directly, when you say that one guy went into a monsoon with a Phase back and whatever camera, for example, you are overstating the case. This is not recommended behaviour with any camera which isn't weather-sealed, especially one which costs $40000-50000. In this sense, you are trying to play down a perfectly valid advantage for the Leica.

I will stop here, but I think that maybe you can understand why I don't feel that the situation is as black&white as you have made it w.r.t. stating truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Yes, I agree, although you requested it and are further extending it, as I am also.:(
Yes, you are right, and I will also stop after this post, and try to write nothing which forces you to respond.

If you'll read my response, you'll see I stated the vast majority of training is spent on software. Software is not easy. That goes for Adobe products, Capture One, etc.
Point taken, I had simply misunderstood your intention. Yes, the Leica *camera* is probably easier to use than the average MFDB-based camera, but you are right, there is also a lot of work in software, and here the situation is currently far from clear.

Part of my beef with your initial response was not the content, but rather the lack of it. You simply claimed the high ground without substantiating it. You have since made some specific points, which I think are fair enough, and perhaps that post should simply have been the first.

Keep in mind that David has taken a lot of flack in this forum. The forum is open, but it also has a very, very strong Phase/CI-biased element, with, what, 3-4 representatives and the owner posting here, as well as at least half a dozen customers. In that sense David walked into hostile territory when he posted here as a dealer. I am sure he is learning as he goes, but he has had to defend himself against some very unfair criticism along the way, and I am sure he feels at least as wronged as you do.

Anyway, enough from me, back to the S2.

---

I wanted to add something to my earlier post about the lenses, but got distracted by my little daughter:

I think the end-to-end software workflow is really missing for the S2. One thing is to give Lightroom a nice profile and improving the sharpening, demosaicing, noise reduction and so on, but it is another task completely to outfit LR with a whole bunch of colour profiling and manipulation tools, and I feel that it is very weak here. Maybe Leica can make the colours perfectly accurate every time, but what if that isn't what is desired? Lightroom + Photoshop? Something is missing in this area, and I don't have enough experience to make a list.
 
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Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Carsten and Steve -- you've both said your 'piece' now make 'peace', any more commentary is just
:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:'s

PLEASE let's get it back to discussing how to go about generating better images...
 

carstenw

Active member
We've made our peace, don't worry. I guess you meant piece :)

This thread isn't about making images, but about drooling on red dots :)
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
How is this for a change of subject....
Every time I buy a camera, the very first thing I end up doing is buying a camera plate or L bracket for it.
And every once in awhile, I have to clean out the bin of left-overs after the gear is long gone.
For one, i really like the convenience of using an arca-style quick-release but I am also a bit peeved about how the attached bracket changes the feel of the camera in the hand, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the particular L bracket and camera.
Not wanting to hurt the bracket makers business but really, wouldn't it be nice if the camera makers just designed-in the necessary grooves, or considered the ergo-effects of an L bracket?
The S2, with it nice organic-ish sloping sides will be butt ugly when one is attached. Square-ish cameras are changed less since they are already square. OTOH some argue that the L-Bracket provides a bit of a "roll-cage" and helps protect the camera from a drop.
-bob
 

carstenw

Active member
Yes, very true, I have had the same thought myself. In fact, I think it might have come up in a discussion on this forum.

I am personally miffed that there is no L-bracket in existence which fits the Contax 645 well, without the grip. The general RRS bracket is okay, but not great. I could add the grip, but why have a bulkier camera when all I want is an L-bracket? At the moment I just flop my ballhead over when I need to work in portrait-mode, but that has its own problems.
 
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Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
We've made our peace, don't worry. I guess you meant piece :)
Using "piece" is indeed the most popular usage and implies you speak what's on your mind. However the use of "peace" implies the discussion is finalized -- and the latter is what I am telling you. So I edited my somewhat obscure inference for the benefit of absolute clarity...

This thread isn't about making images, but about drooling on red dots :)
No, only parts of it were. Other parts have degenerated into people getting their feelings hurt, people making claims they have no business making, and other people feeling the need to jump in and defend whoever is on the side they happen to agree with. And then those that feel they have to have the last word regardless...

What I am telling everybody, is to CEASE those behaviors and get back to discussing cameras, images, techniques, etcetera. And disagreement in those areas is fine, just word your point of view on of those differences respectfully and impersonally.

Finally, no need for anybody to reply to this, as mine is the final word on this topic ;)

I now return you to your normal -- and hopefully more pleasant -- programming. If this thread digresses one more time, it will be locked down.
 

markowich

New member
if you use a raw converter which does not support the files than you can obviously get any (bad) result you like.
peter

Great. Allow me to comment.



We offer this for FREE to any customers that want more in-depth explanation or help. I personally walk through products with customers all the time, and have done multi-hour-long web-based remote training on C1 and LR for those new to those pieces of software. Again, for free.

What I was referring to is that just about anyone picking up the S2 can immediately and intuitively use it. Give someone a MFDB who has never used one and see how long it takes them to figure it out. Perhaps this is just my opinion, but I've witnessed this lack of user-friendliness first hand, thus the basis for my original statement. Perhaps when you get a chance to use the S2, you will agree. :)



Yes, my inexperience extends to not watching all the Phase One promotional videos. :) Can you please clarify the extent to which the Phase One system is weather sealed? Are you, CI, and/or Phase One implying that it is safe for photographers to use their systems in these conditions without having to worry about functional failures or damage? If yes, then I was unaware and I apologize. Have you personally shot with a Phase system in these kinds of conditions?



Is Phase One really a majority shareholder or just an investor? This has been unclear from the press releases as both companies are privately held. If this is the case, why is Phase One partnering with Schneider for the upcoming LS lenses? And, being a shareholder, majority or otherwise, still doesn't make Phase One an optics company.

Hasselblad has only recently started doing lens design. Before the H system, all lenses were designed and built for them by Zeiss. Not implying that they are bad lenses, I'm just stating that this experience is fairly new. Leica (Leitz) has been making optics since 1847, just a wee bit longer than most.



I must be very lucky then! Attached are two crops from two different P65+ backs (one from PhotoPlus in NYC and the other from our recent studio event here in FL), both of which show a quadrant center-fold. I thought this was a pretty well-known P65+/LR issue.



Can you tell me how many shots you did that day? 300-500 shots? At our S2 studio event last weekend, the S2 was still showing a half charge after 700 shots and being on continually for 6 hours straight. Also, consider that the S2 uses a single battery for camera, lens, and digital function, not a battery for the back and six AA batteries for the camera.



I said "in most" cases, not "in all" cases. In order to use the upcoming 60MP back from Hasselblad, you need to upgrade from the H3D to the H4D body. Users of the H2D had to upgrade to the H3D in order to use lenses like the 28H CD or 35-90 HCD. In order to take advantage of the new CCD sync on the P40+ and P65+, you also need to upgrade to the new 645DF body. So while in some cases, a simple back upgrade on the same body will get you addition features, in other cases you need to upgrade everything in order to gain features or performance.

As I mentioned in my previous post to ddk, I really don't like to go on a item-by-item back and forth, creating forum thread drama, but in this case I am again addressing the facts. The implication that I am a liar or misleading people with bad information is not just untrue - it seems unsubstantiated.

The bottom line is photographers will see for themselves first hand what works for them in their shooting conditions, in their hands, with their vision, and their workflow. Simple as that. So, until then, people who have actually used the camera can continue to share their experiences with it to provide a variety of perspectives to those who haven't been able to try it yet.

David
 

paulmoore

New member
how about an expanded arca type plate that would allow you to mount an adjustable bellows/hood/compendium/mattebox rig on rods, keeping it independent of the lens.
I was met with a blank stare when I asked s2 project manager, stephen shultz about if such a thing was in the pipeline.
I am sure there are some cinemaphotography aftermarket matteboxes that can be made to work but it would be nice to have a dedicated professional hood ( with 2 stages ) to work with. I asked him how would he operate a polarizer on the lens with their standard lens hood attached via bayonet..after a pause he said it would not be easy to rotate a polarizer.
For me this ties into the "sterile" comment before.. I love sharp, close to perfect lenses to start with, but I like the ability to put things between the lens and subject to alter this perfect rendering into a more subjective take..sure, you can do lots with post and these lenses are pretty resilient to lens flare but that is how I like to shoot.
regarding this forum, I hope the level of passion is maintained, I would hate to see it so milktoast that one is restrained from popping off some sharp diatribe. I find those both entertaining and educational...I would hate to live in a world where we all just drive priuses because it is the cost-effective way to get around. Now don't jump on me for comparing phase with a prius.. just an analogy.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Using "piece" is indeed the most popular usage and implies you speak what's on your mind. However the use of "peace" implies the discussion is finalized -- and the latter is what I am telling you. So I edited my somewhat obscure inference for the benefit of absolute clarity...



No, only parts of it were. Other parts have degenerated into people getting their feelings hurt, people making claims they have no business making, and other people feeling the need to jump in and defend whoever is on the side they happen to agree with. And then those that feel they have to have the last word regardless...

What I am telling everybody, is to CEASE those behaviors and get back to discussing cameras, images, techniques, etcetera. And disagreement in those areas is fine, just word your point of view on of those differences respectfully and impersonally.

Finally, no need for anybody to reply to this, as mine is the final word on this topic ;)

I now return you to your normal -- and hopefully more pleasant -- programming. If this thread digresses one more time, it will be locked down.
Just walked in the door after holiday but after reading this lovely thread of complete nonsense I agree with Jack. :wtf:
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
how about an expanded arca type plate that would allow you to mount an adjustable bellows/hood/compendium/mattebox rig on rods, keeping it independent of the lens.
I was met with a blank stare when I asked s2 project manager, stephen shultz about if such a thing was in the pipeline.
I am sure there are some cinemaphotography aftermarket matteboxes that can be made to work but it would be nice to have a dedicated professional hood ( with 2 stages ) to work with. I asked him how would he operate a polarizer on the lens with their standard lens hood attached via bayonet..after a pause he said it would not be easy to rotate a polarizer.
For me this ties into the "sterile" comment before.. I love sharp, close to perfect lenses to start with, but I like the ability to put things between the lens and subject to alter this perfect rendering into a more subjective take..sure, you can do lots with post and these lenses are pretty resilient to lens flare but that is how I like to shoot.
regarding this forum, I hope the level of passion is maintained, I would hate to see it so milktoast that one is restrained from popping off some sharp diatribe. I find those both entertaining and educational...I would hate to live in a world where we all just drive priuses because it is the cost-effective way to get around. Now don't jump on me for comparing phase with a prius.. just an analogy.
I noticed, with some envy, that Cambo had incorporated a standard spigot in their new leveling base which is all kinds of useful.
That would be a good addition to our ideal bracket too and might be useful for attaching more than just a flex arm and clip for use as a flag. If on the bracket it would move with the lens and be a lot more practice than a similar thing hanging off a C-stand.
-bob
 

arashm

Member
Camera's are funny things
This last week I shot two jobs one with a H3d2-39 and the other the H3d2-31 plus the usual 5D2 stuff, yet the camera I just can't put down is the GF-1.... go figure
am
 

jlm

Workshop Member
from fotografz:
"...also did a search of my archives for some shots I had done in identical beach conditions with a H3D/31 and 100/2.2 lens. That was a revelation itself in that we forget how good all these existing MFD systems already are."

amen to that!
 
T

tetsrfun

Guest
Yes, very true, I have had the same thought myself. In fact, I think it might have come up in a discussion on this forum.

I am personally miffed that there is no L-bracket in existence which fits the Contax 645 well, without the grip. The general RRS bracket is okay, but not great. I could add the grip, but why have a bulkier camera when all I want is an L-bracket? At the moment I just flop my ballhead over when I need to work in portrait-mode, but that has its own problems.
Problem solved...get the 203FE and shoot square. :>)

Steve
 

woodyspedden

New member
How is this for a change of subject....
Every time I buy a camera, the very first thing I end up doing is buying a camera plate or L bracket for it.
And every once in awhile, I have to clean out the bin of left-overs after the gear is long gone.
For one, i really like the convenience of using an arca-style quick-release but I am also a bit peeved about how the attached bracket changes the feel of the camera in the hand, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the particular L bracket and camera.
Not wanting to hurt the bracket makers business but really, wouldn't it be nice if the camera makers just designed-in the necessary grooves, or considered the ergo-effects of an L bracket?
The S2, with it nice organic-ish sloping sides will be butt ugly when one is attached. Square-ish cameras are changed less since they are already square. OTOH some argue that the L-Bracket provides a bit of a "roll-cage" and helps protect the camera from a drop.
-bob
Actually Bob this is what hasselblad did. However they didn't go the ARCA route but rather a proprietary one for Hasselblad adapters. These were actually very good but waaaay out of the mainstream.

Woody
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Actually Bob this is what hasselblad did. However they didn't go the ARCA route but rather a proprietary one for Hasselblad adapters. These were actually very good but waaaay out of the mainstream.

Woody
A non-solution.
-bob
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
How is this for a change of subject....
Every time I buy a camera, the very first thing I end up doing is buying a camera plate or L bracket for it.
And every once in awhile, I have to clean out the bin of left-overs after the gear is long gone.
For one, i really like the convenience of using an arca-style quick-release but I am also a bit peeved about how the attached bracket changes the feel of the camera in the hand, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the particular L bracket and camera.
Not wanting to hurt the bracket makers business but really, wouldn't it be nice if the camera makers just designed-in the necessary grooves, or considered the ergo-effects of an L bracket?
The S2, with it nice organic-ish sloping sides will be butt ugly when one is attached. Square-ish cameras are changed less since they are already square. OTOH some argue that the L-Bracket provides a bit of a "roll-cage" and helps protect the camera from a drop.
-bob
I agree, Bob - my Rollei 2.8F has a built-in Rollei quick release base (just one of course as it a square format), and somewhere I have the tripod plate into which the base locks...why not one on the base and left side of the Phase camera?

Incidentally, anyone know if the RRS L bracket for the Phamiya AFDIII is likely to fit the new Phase DF?

Bill
 
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