Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 216

Thread: S2 in the "Real World"

  1. #1
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    S2 in the "Real World"

    Thanks to Chris Snipes representing Dale Labs, I got my hands on a S2 with 70 and 180 lenses while staying at the Don Cesar Resort in St. Pete's Beach FL.

    I was able to shoot about 170 images around the resort in different lighting .... overcast in the AM, interior shots with and without flash (SF58), and in bright sunny beach and pool side conditions.

    This is my criteria for considering the S2 ... more out-and-about than sequestered in a studio. I prefer a modular MFD system for the studio. In essence I am looking at it as a possible partial replacement for a 35mm DSLR with MFD like IQ. This is where a good deal of my paying work has migrated to.

    The caveats are the usual ... this is a new camera so some things were slow going until I picked up on the controls ... which Chris was so good to help with. I also did not try to "push" the camera being more interested in the basics of operation and handling in conditions I tend to shoot in.

    As far as the image IQ, it is exactly as expected from preliminary viewing on a lap top with a few caveats I'll point out later when I get home and process the images on my main computer, and more importantly actually print from the files. Suffice it to say that when the wifey saw the shots I did of her, she gave a thumbs up to move forward getting the S2 ...

    For now I will just stick to operational observations:

    This is definitely a MF digital camera in a DSLR body ... with all that implies.

    One must remember to watch the shutter speeds just like with any MF camera ... which may seem obvious, but when in hand it is easy to forget it is MFD NOT a 35mm DSLR.

    The S2 is quiet ... I think the quietest MFD camera out there. No big mirror slap, fairly quiet AF, shutter and advance. This bodes well for hand holding as long as one remembers it is still a MF camera with a big sensor and high resolution.

    I tried ISOs up to and including 1250 ... which I will get into after I process at home. I will say that the short choices of ISOs was surprising and hopefully later firmware will add incremental ISOs for finer control. 160, 320, 640 and 1250 are too big a jump for a camera like this and having 200, 400, 500, 800 and 1000 would benefit it greatly.

    The S2 offers 3 modes of metering, but I used averaging for most my shots and can say it metered difficult scenes VERY well,
    including beach scenes with white sand and shots directly into a pool ... with no compensation. Compensation can be assigned to one of the rear buttons and appears large on the LCD.

    The LCD is very nice, especially for a MFD camera and I could review most shots except in more direct beach sun.

    For those used to 35mm DSLRs it should be noted that there is one control wheel not two. Shutter speed is controlled by a traditional wheel on top right of the camera ... and may take some getting used to. I kept searching for the index finger wheel while shooting out of habit.

    If I have any concern about the S2 it is the AF performance. It is NOT 35mm DSLR like at all. There is one center sensor so one has to watch focus recompose issues when shooting wide open. That I can handle, but when the AF is assigned to the shutter button it is slow and hunts even in good light. AF was much better assigned to the rear "thumb" button but still not as fast as I had hoped it would be. I could not get the continuous focus to work very well, but will leave that to others to test more completely. Like most Leica lenses, the manual focus and manual focus override was excellent.

    Over-all this is a beautiful camera and handles like a dream with the few caveats I've mentioned ... some of which may be overcome with more practice. The AF would be my only concern since I wasn't expecting high ISO performance nor in need of much over 800 ... which is why I wished the camera offered 800.

    More to come ...

    -Marc

  2. #2
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I like the whole hundred numbers myself as well. Sounds good Marc look forward to hearing more. Obviously Chris Snipes has taken on a different role than the past . Maybe reason Dale and I where confused on other thread.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  3. #3
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I thought Chris Snipes was one entity that sells Phase and Dale Labs an entirely different entity, a camera store and processing lab that sells Leica among many others? So how exactly did that situation change -- did they from some sort of partnership???
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  4. #4
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Okay, a few shots but not optimal since I'm working remote from my laptop.

    Mostly straight from the S2 with minimal post ... but it gives some notion of Bokeh, metering in high contrast conditions, and one quick snap indoors with un-diffused flash.

    Color is nice ... pretty neutral going in.

    The camera loves "Fat Light" like most MFD systems. The guy with the Canon is my pal Ed Richter who lives in the Tampa area and is also considering the S2.

    -Marc

  5. #5
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I thought Chris Snipes was one entity that sells Phase and Dale Labs an entirely different entity, a camera store and processing lab that sells Leica among many others? So how exactly did that situation change -- did they from some sort of partnership???
    I believe they did Jack. Chris' business card now reads Sales Manager, Professional Market, Dale Photo and Digital with the Hollywood, Fl. address. Chris still works out of the Tampa, St. Pete area though.

  6. #6
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Marc 180 with your wife. Remember by chance F stop
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  7. #7
    Subscriber & Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    414

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Marc - thanks.
    LR conversions? Beta3?

  8. #8
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Look pretty good, but the clouds look a bit odd in the two beach shots, significantly less bright than the sand on the beach? Was that how they looked in actuality, which I guess is possible, or is it a Grad-ND in the LR processing, or perhaps something else in the native file?
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    California/Thailand
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I have to say that I'm happy to start seeing "non-studio" shots from the S2 (even online jpegs). Thanks, Marc, for posting these. It's good of Chris and Co. to help you get the time with the camera.

  10. #10
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    First... thanks Marc... really appreciate your thoughts.

    (before I say what I'm going to say... realize I'm NOT in the market for this camera)

    Ok... I really like the shots, but am just not excited by these. I guess it's the web jpegs and the fact that we're now at a point that nothing coming down that pike is going to blow away what's already out. I think they still have a lack of mojo that much of the earlier s2 samples lacked as well. I swear that half of the m9 and a900 stuff i see has more sparkle... but that's probably showing what I find important as far as IQ. I will say that they do have a natural-ness to them that is nice... but like the d3x (IMO) lack the "bite" which does a lot to help add dimension to the images.

    I think the one other thing that this cam had possibly going for it... an af that might be deemed "35mm lite"... is turning out to be a bummer. Yet another report that I've seen that comes across with a (again, mo) "bummer about the af" undertone.

    Just my opinion... but if you're going to build a "MF camera in a 35mm body", then the AF better work like 35mm. At that price, the Af needs to kick some ***. Otherwise we end up with yet another MF solution (not necessarily a bad thing), but one that also does little improve on what's already available in terms of image quality (my opinion) as well as utility.

    If I were considering this camera for anything that had a lifestyle component to it... the AF would be a deal breaker (did I say that the IQ doesn't really excite me either, lol).

    ETA: Please don't mistake my criticism as saying that the IQ is Bad... FFFAARRRRRRR from it... it's just not what I had expected (which as before, is an opinion).

  11. #11
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Marc - thanks.
    LR conversions? Beta3?
    Yes, just using the embedded profiles ... which is all that shows up as far as choices.

  12. #12
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I have to say that I'm happy to start seeing "non-studio" shots from the S2 (even online jpegs). Thanks, Marc, for posting these. It's good of Chris and Co. to help you get the time with the camera.
    Absolutely! Chris was very patient and willing to spend the whole day with us if we wanted ... but I'm on vacation and it started to feel a little like work

    I like the Bokeh shown in the shot of my pal Ed which was the 180 wide open.

  13. #13
    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Denmark, CPH
    Posts
    2,500
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Marc 180 with your wife. Remember by chance F stop
    Pool: Exif says 70mm 1/4000 sec. at f/2.5 ISO 320

    Canon photographer: Exif says 180mm 1/2000 sec. at f/3.5 ISO 320

    Woman with sunglasses: Exif says 180mm 1/125 sec. at f/13 ISO 320

    Parasail rentals: Exif says 70mm 1/2000 sec. at f/5.7 ISO 320

    Armchair man: Exif says 70mm 1/125 sec. at f/3.4 ISO 640

    Little dog: Exif says 180mm 1/250 sec. at f/5.7 ISO 320

    Beach runner: Exif says 70mm 1/2000 sec. at f/5.7 ISO 320

  14. #14
    Subscriber & Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,178
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    414

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Marc - OK, Thank you.

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Look pretty good, but the clouds look a bit odd in the two beach shots, significantly less bright than the sand on the beach? Was that how they looked in actuality, which I guess is possible, or is it a Grad-ND in the LR processing, or perhaps something else in the native file?
    No fussing in LR jack ... the beach shots are pretty much out of the camera and converted to jpg. The sky was a bit weird as a storm was starting to conjure itself up, and it rained later in the day.

    But it's a good observation, and when I get a chance I'll look at the M9 stuff I did a little later in the day.

    -Marc

  16. #16
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I believe they did Jack. Chris' business card now reads Sales Manager, Professional Market, Dale Photo and Digital with the Hollywood, Fl. address. Chris still works out of the Tampa, St. Pete area though.
    Thanks David,

    Obviously I missed that memo
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  17. #17
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    No fussing in LR jack ... the beach shots are pretty much out of the camera and converted to jpg. The sky was a bit weird as a storm was starting to conjure itself up, and it rained later in the day.

    But it's a good observation, and when I get a chance I'll look at the M9 stuff I did a little later in the day.

    -Marc
    Thanks Marc!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  18. #18
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    ISO 320 ... 180mm @ f/13 according to the exif info. DOF seems shallow for f/13 doesn't it ? ... but the background was quite a bit away.

    Not my wife BTW, she is the yoga instructor at the Don Cesar.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    That is one chubby Chihuahua.



    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    84
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Roger

    What the heck is going on with the background of the third image ?

    Is there some sort of software issue causing the weird stuff around the bench and in
    some of the out of focus foliage or is that how the M9 renders those situations


    Mark

    www.marktomalty.com

  21. #21
    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, California, USA
    Posts
    1,965
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by mtomalty View Post
    Roger

    What the heck is going on with the background of the third image ?

    Is there some sort of software issue causing the weird stuff around the bench and in
    some of the out of focus foliage or is that how the M9 renders those situations


    Mark

    www.marktomalty.com
    +1 ?

  22. #22
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Well Shelby, being a M9 and A900 user, I just happen to know exactly what you are saying. Part of it may have to do with initial processing and viewing jpgs (which I was leery about doing) ... but I doubt it's so far off that the over-all S2 character will change dramatically.

    Ideally, I'd like to avoid any comparisons.

    I think it may come down to different feelings about pictorial aesthetics. The way that the Zeiss ZA lenses from Sony consistently produce a 3D quality is becoming something of hallmark for users, and we seem to miss it when absent. However, it may not be the over-riding aspect of IQ that others may deem as important.

    There are aspects of the S2 experience others will uncover with more intense use against their criteria. I wasn't looking for things like distortion or sharpness across the frame ... which the specs on these lenses promise to be some of the best ever. Landscape shooters may have a whole other set of criteria differing from mine ... or for that matter, yours.

    Personally, I accept different pictorial looks from different cameras ... however from a lifestyle angle my biggest concern would be AF speed and versatility. While using manual focus and stopping down can nail action shots ... that is somewhat true for any camera with a decent manual focus feel to it. These lenses may lend themselves to that sort of manual control better than others, but (IMO) it remains that the AF may well be a shock to those using most any DSLR, and a bit disappointing for those expecting an marked improvement over the later models of MFD cameras.

    -Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 23rd November 2009 at 12:33.

  23. #23
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    That is one chubby Chihuahua.



    Steve Hendrix
    LOL! Not really, just all bunched up into a ball ... not happy about being thrust up in the air that way.

    -Marc

  24. #24
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,862
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Personally, I accept different pictorial looks from different cameras ... however from a lifestyle angle my biggest concern would be AF speed and versatility. While using manual focus and stopping down can nail action shots ... that is somewhat true for any camera with a decent manual focus feel to it. These lenses may lend themselves to that sort of manual control better than others, but (IMO) it remains that the AF may well be a shock to those using most any DSLR, and a bit disappointing for those expecting an marked improvement over the later models of MFD cameras.

    -Marc
    Marc,

    there are several things I struggle with:

    1) The review which D. Farkas posted said, that the S2 AF is pretty fast and accurate. This is assumed to be due to the special information stored in the lenses so the AF does not start hunting. This is totally contra dictionary to what you found.

    Does that mean that you had a bad sample of an S2?

    2) Fast AF and what DSLR users are expecting ..... If you had a bad sample, then a good sample would be faster, because no AF hunting or what so ever.

    And further one needs to understand that in a MF camera system you are moving much larger masses as in a 35 mm DSLR system, so actually no serious user should wonder that DSLRs are faster.

    There remains the question if any DSLR AF is more accurate than the single point S2 AF ????

    Where also remains the issue that a DSLR user questioning all this should simply stay out of MF as long as they do NOT understand the issues you have to deal with in MF world.

    Sorry to say this as harsh, but we are dealing with MF and who does not understand simply should stay out of these comparisons and not waste our time here.

    And finally - thanks for your efforts and posting your findings here, I find this extremely helpful on my final MF decision process

  25. #25
    Member markowich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Cambridge (UK) and Vienna
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    marc, thanks for your report. it confirms my fears: the S2 is not a 35mm replacement, just a medium MPX smaller-than-usual MF type system. also, i am not convinced by the bokeh, it seems much more nervous than the M lens bokeh. the weatersealing is nice but i have used my H3DII 50 in bad weather in patagonia and elsewhere without failure.
    i for my turn shall be waiting for the H4D 60, being now fully convinced that the S2 is not for me.
    peter

  26. #26
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,862
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    marc, thanks for your report. it confirms my fears: the S2 is not a 35mm replacement, just a medium MPX smaller-than-usual MF type system. also, i am not convinced by the bokeh, it seems much more nervous than the M lens bokeh. the weatersealing is nice but i have used my H3DII 50 in bad weather in patagonia and elsewhere without failure.
    i for my turn shall be waiting for the H4D 60, being now fully convinced that the S2 is not for me.
    peter
    Not fighting for the S2 - but how can you make these serious decisions that fast?

    Or just looking for arguments to stay with Hasselblad? Which is not a bad thing at all, but be honest - from the data we have so far one cannot tell that the H system is better or worse than the S System.

    BTW . what do you think about Phase? This is a well known system and you obviously did choose Hasselblad over Phase - which must have had some reasons ....

  27. #27
    Member markowich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Cambridge (UK) and Vienna
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Not fighting for the S2 - but how can you make these serious decisions that fast?

    Or just looking for arguments to stay with Hasselblad? Which is not a bad thing at all, but be honest - from the data we have so far one cannot tell that the H system is better or worse than the S System.

    BTW . what do you think about Phase? This is a well known system and you obviously did choose Hasselblad over Phase - which must have had some reasons ....
    peter,
    i concluded that the S2 is not for me since i was looking for a system, which could allow me to leave my nikons at home. meaning excellent AF and great iso 800. all the reports i have seen so far (except of course david farkas' one) find the AF rather under par.
    as far as phaseone goes....the P65+ is wonderful. i have one and use it on alpa. couldn't be happier with it.
    peter

  28. #28
    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, California, USA
    Posts
    1,965
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    ....
    Where also remains the issue that a DSLR user questioning all this should simply stay out of MF as long as they do NOT understand the issues you have to deal with in MF world.

    Sorry to say this as harsh, but we are dealing with MF and who does not understand simply should stay out of these comparisons and not waste our time here....
    I'm not so sure, Peter. Marc is also a MFDB owner, and it seems reasonable for him to expect at least "near-35mm" AF from the S2, considering the "near-35mm" form factor is a major part of the appeal of this camera. Sure, the S2 lenses have more mass when compared to 24x36 lenses of the same focal length, but there are 24x36 lenses of equal size that are very quick as well. ie. the Leica 70 isn't bigger than a 135L.

  29. #29
    Member markowich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Cambridge (UK) and Vienna
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    i do not think that lens weight is the main factor. it is AF algorithms. the very good ones (nikon, sony) are not available on the free market.
    leica did not do its homework well when they brought the m8 to the market. i do not know what struck them when they concocted the S2. it seems 'in between' on all accounts.
    peter
    ps: they did their homework well with the m9, though.

  30. #30
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Roger, thanks so much for posting that shot of me with the gals on the bench. I hope to return the favor one day

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    302
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I'd love to see this camera in the hands of Bruce Weber who is used to shooting big MF cameras (Pentax 67) that shoot like 35mm.
    No offence to anyone here or on LL, but seeing studio shots and snaps of friends don't encourage me to open up my wallet on $50K+ unproven system.

  32. #32
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    154
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    It's the mass of the moving elements within the lens that matters most for AF-speed, not the size of the lens itself. The 70 uses all optical elements for focus (+ additional FE) which makes it really hard work for the motor.

    AF-algorithms are important for follow focus, prediction and other high-speed work, not so much for "simple" focus & recompose. The S2-prototype I handled (with the 70 - no internal focussing) on Photokina was quite fast even under bad light conditions, definitely better than the other MF-systems - I'm wondering why we have different "speed-reports" from time to time!?

  33. #33
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Marc,

    there are several things I struggle with:

    1) The review which D. Farkas posted said, that the S2 AF is pretty fast and accurate. This is assumed to be due to the special information stored in the lenses so the AF does not start hunting. This is totally contra dictionary to what you found.

    Does that mean that you had a bad sample of an S2?

    2) Fast AF and what DSLR users are expecting ..... If you had a bad sample, then a good sample would be faster, because no AF hunting or what so ever.

    And further one needs to understand that in a MF camera system you are moving much larger masses as in a 35 mm DSLR system, so actually no serious user should wonder that DSLRs are faster.

    There remains the question if any DSLR AF is more accurate than the single point S2 AF ????

    Where also remains the issue that a DSLR user questioning all this should simply stay out of MF as long as they do NOT understand the issues you have to deal with in MF world.

    Sorry to say this as harsh, but we are dealing with MF and who does not understand simply should stay out of these comparisons and not waste our time here.

    And finally - thanks for your efforts and posting your findings here, I find this extremely helpful on my final MF decision process
    Same camera and lenses as used by D. Farkas. No sample variation.

    Take the time to carefully read what I wrote.

    I DID NOT say the S2 AF was bad. I said those moving from 35mm DSLR should be aware this is MF and the all that implies, and those that think this is a MF camera that will focus considerably better than other MF cameras may be disappointed.

    As to 35mm AF accuracy ... you may have issues with it ... I do not.

    -Marc

  34. #34
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    It's the mass of the moving elements within the lens that matters most for AF-speed, not the size of the lens itself. The 70 uses all optical elements for focus (+ additional FE) which makes it really hard work for the motor.

    AF-algorithms are important for follow focus, prediction and other high-speed work, not so much for "simple" focus & recompose. The S2-prototype I handled (with the 70 - no internal focussing) on Photokina was quite fast even under bad light conditions, definitely better than the other MF-systems - I'm wondering why we have different "speed-reports" from time to time!?
    How do you know it focuses "definitely better than any other MF system based on just this ... did you have all the other MF cameras right there to test in the same light on the same subject? Just curious.

    FOR CLARIFICATION ... I did not say the S2 AF sucked or anything like that. It simply WASN"T some obvious quantum leap forward compared to CURRENT MFD offerings. In fact IMO, it isn't any sized leap forward in terms of MFD AF.

    I will be trying the H4D's new AF system to see what that does to improve MFD AF performance, if anything.

    -Marc

  35. #35
    Shelby Lewis
    Guest

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I'm not so sure, Peter. Marc is also a MFDB owner, and it seems reasonable for him to expect at least "near-35mm" AF from the S2, considering the "near-35mm" form factor is a major part of the appeal of this camera. Sure, the S2 lenses have more mass when compared to 24x36 lenses of the same focal length, but there are 24x36 lenses of equal size that are very quick as well. ie. the Leica 70 isn't bigger than a 135L.
    Hey Douglas... I'm pretty sure Peter was asking me to keep my 35mm nose out of the debate... the considerable time I spent shooting film on the rz67II just doesn't count, lol. (Talk about bad AF. )

    Marc... good points and I do appreciate them. It's difficult to be clear online, and I definitely was not attempting to compare the s2 with the m9 or a900 in any substantive form, and do agree that the look that I find endearing in those cameras isn't the standard by which good IQ should be judged... so apologies if that was not clear.

    I do, however, stand be the idea that the s2 was/is marketed clearly as a camera with best-of-both-worlds attributes. It appears to do that to some extent... but IMO not well enough to warrant the hype (speaking in terms of AF). Oh well.

    I still think the images I've seen lack a certain "something" regardless of what format I shoot. Especially coming from Leica.

    Back to my 35mm ignorance.

  36. #36
    ddk
    Guest

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    Marc... good points and I do appreciate them. It's difficult to be clear online,
    I still think the images I've seen lack a certain "something" regardless of what format I shoot. Especially coming from Leica.

    Back to my 35mm ignorance.
    You're not alone Shelby, I don't see any Leica magic (if there is such a thing) in any on line S2 images either, nor did I ever see it from the M8, though the M9 which I haven't tried for myself yet, seems to have some, though certainly nothing like the 35mm Ms.

  37. #37
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I'm not seeing it yet either to be honest. I hope my 50 thousand mile long ago call on this is wrong that these lenses maybe to clinical looking. Bad thing is I maybe right, not seeing the mojo yet but holding final judgement on that for now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  38. #38
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Don t worry its just really bad processing.
    Roger,

    Any chance you can reprocess it or post the raw so a few others can take a shot at it? It really looked weird and not good...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  39. #39
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Jupiter, Fla.
    Posts
    1,967
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    That one does look funky but the shot of the two camera's is terrific...

  40. #40
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    117
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post

    ...fresh from the White House shoot by Anne Liebowitz .
    ... Liebovitz!

    Don Bryant

  41. #41
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Hi Roger:

    No worries, I misread your original post and thought the images you posted were from the S2. Now it's clear they were shots OF the event using another camera.

    I'm not clear which two posts you want me to delete, but can pretty easily merge the images into your first post if that would help make things more clear. Or, if you just want that image deleted, I can do that. if you still feel the need to have a post removed, please tell me which one by number so I get the correct one.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Same camera and lenses as used by D. Farkas. No sample variation.

    Take the time to carefully read what I wrote.

    I DID NOT say the S2 AF was bad. I said those moving from 35mm DSLR should be aware this is MF and the all that implies, and those that think this is a MF camera that will focus considerably better than other MF cameras may be disappointed.

    As to 35mm AF accuracy ... you may have issues with it ... I do not.

    -Marc
    IMO only a very fast AF is really usefull. (Thats why I leave the one of my Hy6 off most of the time for example and no, I do not believe that the Hy6 focuses as fast as the S2)

    I think it is somewhat clear, that even if the S2 body looks a lot like a 35mm DSLR that it is still more a MF-camera than a 35mm DSLR.
    Weight and size of the lenses, just one central AF point, etc etc.
    Personally I would not have expected that AF speed can come any close to a Nikon d3.
    When I had saw the S2 at a Leica booth some weeks ago another guy had the S2 in the hand and commented about a pretty slow AF.
    The Leica guy said "you have to remember its a MF camera for creative photography" (by the way I thought it was not very clever to say so)
    And has anybody really expected that Leica got their supplier to invent a new sensor which shows better noise performance than all other CCDs while having smaller pixels?

    Still I believe that specially with its size, probably very good lenses and weather sealing the S2 will allow to be used in some situations/environment where you would not bring other MF cameras.

  43. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    California/Thailand
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    I wonder if people are wrestling with the shortcomings of communication via static text without the advantage of vocal tone and facial expressions, etc., and possible misunderstanding of attached materials. I'm one to have extremely narrow tolerance vis-a-vis web forum discussion tone, but I have not observed harshness in this thread (excepting perhaps, a few now-deleted posts earlier in the thread), and I enjoyed seeing Roger's images. His explanation of the images is sufficient for me.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 24th November 2009 at 01:55.

  44. #44
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    please delete 10,12,32,34 and this one..basically all of my posts in this thread.
    A bit confused by the request, but done
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  45. #45
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    IMO only a very fast AF is really usefull. (Thats why I leave the one of my Hy6 off most of the time for example and no, I do not believe that the Hy6 focuses as fast as the S2)

    I think it is somewhat clear, that even if the S2 body looks a lot like a 35mm DSLR that it is still more a MF-camera than a 35mm DSLR.
    Weight and size of the lenses, just one central AF point, etc etc.
    Personally I would not have expected that AF speed can come any close to a Nikon d3.
    When I had saw the S2 at a Leica booth some weeks ago another guy had the S2 in the hand and commented about a pretty slow AF.
    The Leica guy said "you have to remember its a MF camera for creative photography" (by the way I thought it was not very clever to say so)
    And has anybody really expected that Leica got their supplier to invent a new sensor which shows better noise performance than all other CCDs while having smaller pixels?

    Still I believe that specially with its size, probably very good lenses and weather sealing the S2 will allow to be used in some situations/environment where you would not bring other MF cameras.
    That I would agree with.

    I went into this knowing exactly the limits I could live with ... there were NO expectations of Canon or Nikon Pro series AF performance ... the single point AF provides a clue before even getting the camera in hand. There certainly wasn't an expectation of high ISO like most any 35mm DSLR.

    The caution was provided for those with high end 35mm DSLRs to temper their expectations ... the only surprise I experienced was thinking it would significantly improve on existing MFD AF ... which IMO it does not. I've used both Mamiya and Hassey H long enough now to evaluate that reasonably well.

    Again, the AF is not horrible or defective in any way ... and it may well set new standards for accuracy (which would remain to be seen as compared to Phase One/Mamiya and Hassey's newest offerings both claiming improved AF).

    -Marc

  46. #46
    Member markowich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Cambridge (UK) and Vienna
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    IMO only a very fast AF is really usefull. (Thats why I leave the one of my Hy6 off most of the time for example and no, I do not believe that the Hy6 focuses as fast as the S2)

    I think it is somewhat clear, that even if the S2 body looks a lot like a 35mm DSLR that it is still more a MF-camera than a 35mm DSLR.
    Weight and size of the lenses, just one central AF point, etc etc.
    Personally I would not have expected that AF speed can come any close to a Nikon d3.
    When I had saw the S2 at a Leica booth some weeks ago another guy had the S2 in the hand and commented about a pretty slow AF.
    The Leica guy said "you have to remember its a MF camera for creative photography" (by the way I thought it was not very clever to say so)
    And has anybody really expected that Leica got their supplier to invent a new sensor which shows better noise performance than all other CCDs while having smaller pixels?

    Still I believe that specially with its size, probably very good lenses and weather sealing the S2 will allow to be used in some situations/environment where you would not bring other MF cameras.
    you are completely right. i also fell into the high expectation trap, although it was completely unreasonable.
    peter

  47. #47
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    154
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    "How do you know it focuses "definitely better than any other MF system based on just this ... did you have all the other MF cameras right there to test in the same light on the same subject? Just curious."

    After I handled the S2, I quickly went to the Hasselblad-booth and Sinar (Hy6) to compare the "feeling" while I had the S2 well in mind - I didn't like the sound of the Summarit 70-AF but under these comparable light situations the AF definitely felt better than the others. It wasn't "pumping" or "hunting" for focus, activate it, one fast (annoying) "sssrrttt" and done.


    "And has anybody really expected that Leica got their supplier to invent a new sensor which shows better noise performance than all other CCDs while having smaller pixels?"

    It uses microlenses, the other current-sensor-offerings do not - out of curiosity, how far (ISO/noise-wise) would you go with a P40+/P65+ in comparison to a D3X/1dsMkIII (not for web-applications but critical print work from manually processed RAW-files). Are there final firmware DNGs out for 640/1250ASA? Haven't seen them yet!?

  48. #48
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    Just a FRIENDLY reminder on these Leica S2 forums as of late that folks need to beware of the GetDPI Mantra. Let's keep it friendly folks. I'm not particular happy with what I have been seeing as of late. I know some members are not being involved on purpose and that is not the GetDPI way.

    "A place to exchange ideas, techniques, experiences AND images,
    where the discussions are fun, respectful and geared toward the goal of
    helping each other improve all aspects of our photography."
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  49. #49
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    A few additional observations:

    Of the 170 shots I did, none exhibited any CA or purple fringing ... this included interior shots with specular hot spots from interior lights ... I also experience zero flare even in the brightest conditions with the sun in the frame.

    While the AF occasionally slowed me down or I missed the exact timing I wanted, when it did lock, it was dead on the money as far as accuracy ... in other words it focused on what I wanted, not something near it or behind it.

    As far as "clinical" look verses "mojo" ... I'm not sure what that means when applied to high resolution MFD ... since I've personally never seen any MFD shot that looks like a M9 shot done with a M 75/1.4 or DMR shot using a 35/1.4 or 80/1.4 ... except maybe an adapted Zeiss 110/2 shot up close. The caveat to that is that I've not used the Mamiya 150/2.8D or studied shots from it.

    I did do some shots at ISO 1250 which exhibited noise ... but we must remember that these files are huge and printed at certain smaller sizes will look fine due to compressing the noise down smaller compared to 12 meg files for example. I have some similar shots back home and will print at 8" X 10" to see how correct this really is. I can say that at 1250 there was no banding or streaks even when I lifted the file a stop or so. However, I still believe it was an oversight to not offer ISOs like 800 and 1000 on this camera. Maybe a major oversight.

    Lastly, the resolution is (IMO) over-all the equal to my H3D-11/39 when all things are taken into consideration. (which was Leica's intention if I recall correctly). Detail of enlarged portions is VERY good. There is no apparent color transfer or smearing of adjacent hues etc. Crisp separation.

    -Marc

  50. #50
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Rye, NY
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: S2 in the "Real World"

    marc, I think Leica's intention was that it would size up favorably to the all backs..I think that it is a given that the files of 31mp and above are going to be good.. it is the handling and process of the camera that makes it stand out to me..that includes the optics.. It is hard to compare this camera with anything else as it does not fit in a box yet occupied by any other camera system. Thanks for taking the time and exposure in posting your comments and pics.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •