Another S2 Experience

[DougDolde]

I have to agree there is nothing special about these images. Could be a Nikon or Canon for all I know.

 

[vieri]

Thanks so much for posting these.

Sorry, but as much as I want to, I don't see the magic here that others apparently see

Not that there isn't any character, it's just not very Leica in character IMO. Everything I've seen so far from the S2 is technically excellent, but generally lacks a sense of the richness and depth that is the Leica hallmark. Maybe it doesn't translate to MFD ... but I have seen that special feel done with MFD that's just lacking to my eye with the S2 so far. The Pelican shot is very 2D looking for example like a cut out placed on a background ... maybe it's the lighting?

I opened some of the shots I did down in Florida on my main computer and even printed a few ... and that's what I see there also ... excellent resolution and technically superb files that lack Mojo, or whatever you want to call it.

I guess I need to see more before parting with the "war chest funds" I gathered to get this system ... as it stands, I'm all dressed up and have no place to go :ROTFL:

If someone processes some of these in C1 -v5 it'd be great to see them.


-Marc

I have to agree there is nothing special about these images. Could be a Nikon or Canon for all I know.

Marc, to me it all depends on what one intends as "Leica character". If you consider the last generation of M lenses (the ASPH or the 90 APO), then we have it here as well - if what you have in mind is more like the old generation of glass, then I do agree with you: these samples are too technically perfect, too clinical, lack that glow & character that comes out of certain optical imperfections exploited to the max (coma = leica glow, etc).

Doug & Marc, while I do agree with you both on the character, the pelican shot IMHO show very good detail and a very smooth transaction to the OOF areas with a very smooth rendition of the above areas (just trying not to use the dreaded B word here! ). DR is also very noticeable in these files, and while my D3 comes close it doesn't get there - my P45+ does though. I don't own high-rez Nikon or Canon cameras, but I do have and use day in day out a D3 with the best glass available, D2Xs & D2X before that, and I think (after having shot tenths of thousands of frames with these cameras) that the results are not up there in terms of sharpness and smoothness (I am actually glad they aren't for those going to shell out for the S2 :ROTFL: ). Character is probably more to be expected as a result of a photographer's use of light, composition, and of the great technical qualities of the lenses than as something automatically coming out of a camera anyway...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks so much for posting these.

Sorry, but as much as I want to, I don't see the magic here that others apparently see

Not that there isn't any character, it's just not very Leica in character IMO. Everything I've seen so far from the S2 is technically excellent, but generally lacks a sense of the richness and depth that is the Leica hallmark. Maybe it doesn't translate to MFD ... but I have seen that special feel done with MFD that's just lacking to my eye with the S2 so far. The Pelican shot is very 2D looking for example like a cut out placed on a background ... maybe it's the lighting?

I opened some of the shots I did down in Florida on my main computer and even printed a few ... and that's what I see there also ... excellent resolution and technically superb files that lack Mojo, or whatever you want to call it.

I guess I need to see more before parting with the "war chest funds" I gathered to get this system ... as it stands, I'm all dressed up and have no place to go :ROTFL:

If someone processes some of these in C1 -v5 it'd be great to see them.


-Marc

I think it is more softer light than anything else on this series but I do agree Marc what we are seeing from these lenses is clinical in look. I mentioned this a long time ago but no one paid attention that this would be my fear. I will get some in c1 and see if they are somewhat different. These are slightly better than yours from a light standpoint but real LUX mojo is not in these. The detail seems to be there and looks to be coming from this type of sensor and size that is a given. More dissecting needed. LOL

 

[ddk]

I'm not sure that anyone sees any magic in these images, we're appreciating Mark's effort to share the raw files. In fact these images prove that one still needs the right technique when it comes to MF and there's no advantage to S2's dslr like qualities if you don't have it!

The more I see the more the files look like those from the P25+ that I tried.

Thanks so much for posting these.

Sorry, but as much as I want to, I don't see the magic here that others apparently see

Not that there isn't any character, it's just not very Leica in character IMO. Everything I've seen so far from the S2 is technically excellent, but generally lacks a sense of the richness and depth that is the Leica hallmark. Maybe it doesn't translate to MFD ... but I have seen that special feel done with MFD that's just lacking to my eye with the S2 so far. The Pelican shot is very 2D looking for example like a cut out placed on a background ... maybe it's the lighting?

I opened some of the shots I did down in Florida on my main computer and even printed a few ... and that's what I see there also ... excellent resolution and technically superb files that lack Mojo, or whatever you want to call it.

I guess I need to see more before parting with the "war chest funds" I gathered to get this system ... as it stands, I'm all dressed up and have no place to go :ROTFL:

If someone processes some of these in C1 -v5 it'd be great to see them.


-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The P25 is a very nice back and owned one for quite awhile. It does not have the DR like the larger backs and 6.8 size so it is more crunchy if you know what I mean. It does have excellent color and saturation very much a Kodak sensor trademark and one I do like myself. I do agree David one needs all the right shooting elements and light and all that to produce great images. I don't think anyone disagree's on that and certainly appreciate Marks efforts very much. Still think there is no buy decision on this system yet though for us pixel peepers and such.

 

[Dale Allyn]

I'm not sure that anyone sees any magic in these images, we're appreciating Mark's effort to share the raw files. In fact these images prove that one still needs the right technique when it comes to MF and there's no advantage to S2's dslr like qualities if you don't have it!

The more I see the more the files look like those from the P25+ that I tried.

This has sort of been my take on this whole thing. Not saying that it's "just a P25+" (I own one and like it), but just saying that David has sort of summed up how I feel so far. I do really like some elements of the S2 system, such as weather sealing, form-factor, etc. I'm not dishing it at all, just waiting for the "zing".

 

[MFnLF]

I tried Raw Therapee and C1 processing the DNG raw files, and they look good to me. But IMHO, S2 cannot compete with 30+MP MF digital backs (I like my Sinar 75LV better), and cannot beat high-end Nikon/Canon DSLR's either. We always pay a higher price for some compromises, but miss both best ends.

 

[fotografz]

The P25 is a very nice back and owned one for quite awhile. It does not have the DR like the larger backs and 6.8 size so it is more crunchy if you know what I mean. It does have excellent color and saturation very much a Kodak sensor trademark and one I do like myself. I do agree David one needs all the right shooting elements and light and all that to produce great images. I don't think anyone disagree's on that and certainly appreciate Marks efforts very much. Still think there is no buy decision on this system yet though for us pixel peepers and such.

Again, posting thoughts and images is MUCH appreciated!

Guy, I think on a pixel peeping basis it's a winner. I have my images on a 30" screen and it's got all the technical stuff. Not just the few I posted from my lap top ... but in other light also ... I shot 170 frames and not all of them were in that same light.

By character, I don't necessarily mean old Leica ... I'm using the newer lenses on a M9 and a lot of it isn't all that clinical unless you DO pixel peep. There is still that Leica character with a sense of depth and all that. POP, Mojo, that Leica something that you know when you see it and miss it when you don't see it. Hard to explain. M has it, DMR has it ...

Maybe it's to much to expect translating it up to MFD.

I need to see some "moody dark" stuff with a S2 ... like Irakly does all the time with his Contax and P25 or M8.

I'll keep watching,

-Marc

 

[paulmoore]

all this about not seeing the "zing" makes me wonder if we are reaching the limit for mp and image clarity at which point the images are just too perfect..and thus boring.
We as customers have desired more and sharper but now we miss the imperfection..like we missed the hiss and hum of a good lp on a stereo.
The mojo, as it has been called needs also to come from the photographer/processor now we have these ultra clean and sharp files with 12stops of dr..it is like living in a well lit clean room.. very nice and all but dull too. Time work on the photo skills, selective degrade, sculpt with light, impeccable composition, etc..until then it all is just a bit too clinical for my cup of tea.
I was really hoping for an adapter to use some of my lux r lenses on the s2 for this reason..and why so many of us are using c mount lenses shooting hd video.. the digital lenses are just too boring..at least with still photography you can work post on them until the cows come home.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

The problem I have is that I have yet to see any posts of a 100% crop out of a 640 ISO or 1250 ISO image. Mark, that tattoo parlour shot looks about right, but don't know what ISO it was shot at.

In addition to high ISO, it has to be a high ISO shot taken in an environment where you would typically use it, ie, room light, or late in the day natural light. I've seen high ISO samples from manufacturers taken at 1PM on sunny days and tossed them out. That is the best possible scenario for high ISO in terms of what the quality would be, but that is not how users would typically use it. Or rather, it does not demonstrate the quality that a user would see when used in lower light, shadowy conditions.

I am very anxious to see what we see on December 3 at our Leica open house in Miami. When I rate a product as usable at a certain ISO, that status is based on very stringent criteria and until I demonstrate it at that criteria, I'm not sold.

That said, we obviously have seen enough from our brief time with the S2 to make a pretty major decision to take on the Leica line and we're excited about that.


Steve Hendrix


Steve

 

[ddk]

Again, posting thoughts and images is MUCH appreciated!

Guy, I think on a pixel peeping basis it's a winner. I have my images on a 30" screen and it's got all the technical stuff. Not just the few I posted from my lap top ... but in other light also ... I shot 170 frames and not all of them were in that same light.

By character, I don't necessarily mean old Leica ... I'm using the newer lenses on a M9 and a lot of it isn't all that clinical unless you DO pixel peep. There is still that Leica character with a sense of depth and all that. POP, Mojo, that Leica something that you know when you see it and miss it when you don't see it. Hard to explain. M has it, DMR has it ...

Maybe it's to much to expect translating it up to MFD.

I need to see some "moody dark" stuff with a S2 ... like Irakly does all the time with his Contax and P25 or M8.

I'll keep watching,

-Marc

But that's Irakly not the equipment! And the Contax glass has its own mojo...

I think that what most of us who already own other MF systems are looking for, is a strong reason to change and we're not seeing it yet. With MF the quality bar of glass was always set higher than 35mm and that's one of the reasons that we don't see Leica blowing the competition away. Then the system is based on a Kodak chip, what could they come up with software wise that Hasselblad and Phase didn't with their years of experience?

IMO, at the end of the day we're looking just at another MFD system, on a par with the rest that are Kodak based, maybe something to consider if I was just starting out but not something to lose a ton cash over buy changing valid, working systems.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Interesting comments from the existing MF shooting folks. Tend to agree on many of them if not all. Obviously we still need more time and images and I am sure we will see more coming to help us figure this out. To me it's a big puzzle in the sky we added a few more pieces but still a lot more to fill it needs to come in.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well in C1 it is not being very friendly on the noise .I usually have my P30+ at 10 luminance and color 30 as my default . I did the same on Marks S2 shot and it is not that friendly. I did open it in ACR and the noise looked cleaner again C1 we may just have to find a sweet spot for it or better yet a profile. But at ISO 320 we have noise Houston and we got Moire in both programs. Detail is there but this is not positive at the moment so we have to see what's up here . But I have my numbers low , going to 20 , 40 it gets looking better

 

[Mark Gowin]

Here is a crop (maybe not 100%) from the Tampa Skyline. I took the crop from the most demanding portion of the image. The sky was not totally dark as there were some low clouds which were reflecting the street lights. One last thing, I wouldn't get too concerned about the colors because I realized, after the fact, that I hadn't white balanced the photo. I chose to provide a crop from the full image as posted above with no changes other than the crop.

 

[dfarkas]

The problem I have is that I have yet to see any posts of a 100% crop out of a 640 ISO or 1250 ISO image. Mark, that tattoo parlour shot looks about right, but don't know what ISO it was shot at.

In addition to high ISO, it has to be a high ISO shot taken in an environment where you would typically use it, ie, room light, or late in the day natural light. I've seen high ISO samples from manufacturers taken at 1PM on sunny days and tossed them out. That is the best possible scenario for high ISO in terms of what the quality would be, but that is not how users would typically use it. Or rather, it does not demonstrate the quality that a user would see when used in lower light, shadowy conditions.

Steve Hendrix


Steve

Steve,

The Mythos beer shot was at 640 ISO in indoor room light. 1/30th at f/3.4 handheld. I snagged the camera and took this when we all sat down for lunch. Mark and Chris went for the Lebanese lager, I opted for the Greek brew.

David

 

[thomas]

I usually have my P30+ at 10 luminance and color 30 as my default

my preset is L:00 + C:08 for the P45 and L:00 + C:12 for the P21+ at base ISO.
Above L:06 softness is introduced and for some reason apparently this applies to all cameras (all I've seen in C1).
If I use Luminance NR in C1 I only apply it to a variant and I only take the dark tonal values from this variant in a layered TIF in Photoshop.

 

[carstenw]

Here is a crop (maybe not 100%) from the Tampa Skyline. I took the crop from the most demanding portion of the image. The sky was not totally dark as there were some low clouds which were reflecting the street lights. One last thing, I wouldn't get too concerned about the colors because I realized, after the fact, that I hadn't white balanced the photo. I chose to provide a crop from the full image as posted above with no changes other than the crop.

There is a weird gritty noise in the corners, but not close to the building. Is that JPG compression? What ISO is it at, and what was the exposure time like?

 

[Jack]

Agree with Thomas -- I use L at 00 for all cameras at base ISO, however for Color I usually ramp up to around 35 for smoother color transitions.

 

[Mark Gowin]

Carsten,

You are probably seeing jpg compression in the crop. In fact, you can see a distinct circle above the bright lighted building top which looks like compression as well. I expect a high resolution conversion would eliminate this.


Edit: 6.0 Sec at f6.7, ISO 160

Mark

 

[Mark Gowin]

David did a good job hand holding the Mythos beer bottle shot. I couldn't get my beer bottle to stay still long enough to get a good hand held shot. Seriously, his technique was better than mine. I couldn't get as good results even at 1/45th.