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Thread: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

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    Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    I thought this might help anyone, like myself, considering Phaseone cameras or backs. I would really appreciate a comprehensive list of all the lenses and opinions of how they perform – all in one thread.

    The new lenses and the old lenses, the great performers and the dogs, the special and quirky lenses, whatever there is that can be attached to Phaseone/Mamiya AF/MF cam.

    For some this might seem redundant, but it would help a lot of people to have a lens reference that is easy to find and has all the lenses and those who’ve used them in one thread.

    I'm a Hassy user and I have no experience with Phase cameras or lenses, so I'll refrain from listing what I've read. I'm only interested in first hand experiences and opinions with any of lenses you've used on the Phaseone/Mamiya cameras - good and bad.

    Lastly, I'd like to ask everyone just to comment on the LENSES! I know it's difficult not to ask about something related, but please, no off topic questions about the backs, bodies, other cameras, chitchat, etc.
    There are plenty of other threads for that.

    Thanks for your help and off we go!

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    If you're interested in how some older M645 lenses behave when used a FF DSLR, I'd be happy to give some thoughts. If you just want to stick to use on MF bodies, no worries.

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    This thread might help

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    I've just started this in our Lens Review section last week and will be adding to it as time allows -- here is the first installment: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12092
    Jack
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    Wink Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    This thread might help
    Hi Yair,

    very leafy link if I may say so...
    Last edited by kipling; 30th November 2009 at 09:27.

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Thanks Jack, great review. If you have anything to ad about shorter focal lenghts I'd be very interested. Thanks again!


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I've just started this in our Lens Review section last week and will be adding to it as time allows -- here is the first installment: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12092
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I was recently asked what my experiences with Mamiya lenses around the 200mm focal were. I have owned several of the popular options, so thought it benefit others if I wrote up a brief synopsis. The options I have experience with are the 210 f4 ULD AF lens, the 105-210 f4.5 ULD AF Zoom and the 200 f2.8 APO manual focus lens. I have also owned the 150 f3.5 AF and currently own the 150 f2.8 AF-D lens as well as the 75-150 AF-D Zoom so can make some relative comparisons.

    200 f2.8 APO manual focus. Note that these are all manual lenses so you need to do stop-down metering and manually set your desired aperture as well as manually focus. Mamiya or Phase body focus confirmation dots will indicate proper focus with this lens.

    At f2.8, the lens is sharp but slightly lower contrast than when stopped down. Not bad, just lower than when stopped down. DoF is paper -- make that razor -- thin at f2.8 and portrait distances, so precise focus is a must. By f5.6 the lens resolves better than my P45+ sensor, and shows excellent contrast. Ditto at f8 and f11. F16 starts to show diffraction, but the image quality is still excellent. Distortion seems very well controlled. I would add that this lens performs on par with my excellent Mamiya 150 f2.8 AF-D lens.

    2XN converter. According to the compatibility sheet that came with the converter, it is usable on the 200/2.8 APO. I did a quick test over lunch at f2.8, 5.6 and 11 with both combos and here is what I can tell you; 2X mounted at f2.8, still usably sharp, but lower on contrast -- again not horrible, just notable compared to same set stopped down. 2X mounted at f5.6, almost as sharp as without converter and maintains excellent contrast. Ditto for f11. Along high-contrast edges, the combination with converter does show some lateral CA. Note that this is not visible in the lens by itself, so it is likely a converter artifact. Fortunately, the C1 CA tool removes it entirely. Some notable barrel distortion is present when using the converter.

    Some other bits. At f2.8 with or without converter, the image is so bright on the screen that metering gets skewed to under-expose by over ½ stop so you really need to use the histogram. By f5.6 it appeared to meter normally. Depending on the series of AFD body you use, the manual metering pattern sometimes defaults to spot only, so care needs to be taken if relying on your meter. Again, my recommendation is to use your histogram to confirm exposure. One downside is this lens’ MFD (Minimum Focus Distance) is a rather long-ish 2 meters, where its counterparts are 1.5 meters. 1.5 meters is enough to allow for a tight head-shot with a 200, but 2 meters makes getting a tight portrait tough unless you add a short extension tube. I always carry the Mamiya NA401 12mm extension tube and it works great with the 200 APO for most “people” shooting distances. The lens is about the same size as the 150/2.8 and fits easily in a regular lens slot in my bag. The 2XN instruction sheet also indicates it works with the manual version of the 120 Macro as well as the manual 50mm shift lens, so some possibly interesting things to explore there. Note that the 2X converter has no electronics so it will not work with AF lenses. In short, my opinion is this is a very good and relatively inexpensive combo for both 200 and 400 focals.

    210 f4 ULD AF. This lens is also very good optically, and exhibits similar lower contrast wide open to the 200 APO, and is basically as sharp and contrasty from f8 and up. Distortion is similarly low like the 200 APO, though it does exhibit a slight bit of CA along high contrast edges -- which again is easily cleaned up in C1. In other words, an excellent option if you don’t need the optical speed of the f2.8 APO and/or prefer AF. Note also that in practical use f2.8 at portrait distances generates an almost impossibly thin DoF for practical purposes, so an f4 limit is not necessarily that bad. But on the other side, the look you get with f2.8 is decidedly unique.

    105-210 f4.5 ULD AF Zoom. A decent performer when stopped down to f11 or more, but exhibits some distortion throughout the zoom range. Contrast is lower than the above primes until about f11 where it clears up nicely. Resolution on my copy was better at the long end than the short end, and fell just shy of either prime’s performance at the 210 setting. It is certainly very good, especially for a zoom, as long as you don’t expect prime performance from it. It is relatively compact being only slightly longer than the 210 f4 prime. I think it’s an excellent option for someone who wants the added versatility of a zoom and only needs the longer focal lengths on occasion. The 75-150 zoom is clearly a better performer, being very good throughout the zoom range from f8 and up, but that lens also costs several times as much.

    So here is my general conclusion, and interestingly all three options cost about the same amount if you buy used:

    * If I did not have the 75-150 zoom, I would probably go with the 105-210 AF zoom and forget about the 200 primes.

    * If I really didn't like zooms, and planned on using the 210 length with any regularity, OR did not have a 150 prime, I would get the 210 AF ULD.

    * If I only needed 200mm on occasion, or felt I had to have the shallowest DoF possible regardless of the relative inconveniences in use, and/or felt I wanted the extra reach of a 400 on occasion, I would get the 200 APO, the NA 401 tube (the AF one works on the manual lenses) and the matching 2xN converter.

    I fell into the latter category for my use requirements and settled on the manual 200 APO -- at least for now. I own the 150/2.8 as my fast head-shot lens, so the 200 only comes out for landscape when I need the extra reach over my 75-150 zoom. The 2x is a plus for extra reach as is the paper-thin DoF, so I felt the added benefits somewhat compensate for dealing with the inconveniences of an all manual lens.

    Cheers,

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    If you're interested in how some older M645 lenses behave when used a FF DSLR, I'd be happy to give some thoughts. If you just want to stick to use on MF bodies, no worries.
    Thanks Rob,
    I intended the thread to be a help for people interested in the phaseone 645 system. So I don't think it would help. Thanks anyway.

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Hi Kipling, over the last 7-8 years I worked with quite all these lenses: 28mm, 35mm, 55mm, 80mm, 120mm Macro, 55-110mm and 210mm and with a variety of digital backs. I will post some comments later on.

    Yair

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Hi Kipling, over the last 7-8 years I worked with quite all these lenses: 28mm, 35mm, 55mm, 80mm, 120mm Macro, 55-110mm and 210mm and with a variety of digital backs. I will post some comments later on.

    Yair
    Fantastic Yair,

    I'm very interested in the performance of the 55-110mm zoom. It's the Hassy lens I most use and it's very, very good.

    Any comments on the new LS lenses would also be very welcome, though I'd expect them all to be excellent.

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    I would not consider the 55-110 I had it for a short time but never really liked it on my P45, On a P65 I would not even want to try it. Still hoping for a good 45-90 zoom next year.

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    My ranking for RESOLUTION (not other characteristics) for the lenses I own and have used extensively using a P45+.

    150 f2.8 D and 120 macro D are 5 stars at all apertures. I don't see how they could be any sharper.

    The 300 f4 is 4.5 stars at all apertures.

    The 210, the 55, the 28 and the 75-150 zoom are all 4 stars at working apertures like f11.

    The 35 and the 55-110 are 3.5 stars at working apertures.

    I no longer have the 45 mm but my memory says 4 stars - I'm planning on the "D" version soon. I'll probably sell the 35 when I get it. The 28 and 45 will suffice between them.

    I've never used the 105-210 so can't comment. I don't own the 80 mm standard but the one I've borrowed would be a 4.5 star, I think.

    I have the Phase DF/P65/Schneider LS 80 on order - I'm told the latter is outstanding. Tell you in a few weeks!

    Hope this is helpful.

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Anyone have any experience with the 500/5.6?

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Thanks Bill, that pretty much matches what I've read. Kind of worried about 55-110mm zoom. Seems like most people are disapoited with his lens. It's a shame because the Hassy zoom is my most used lens. It's realy sharp and is great for exactly framing shot in tight spaces, which I always find myself in.

    Maybe Phase will come out with a new zoom...

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by kipling View Post
    Fantastic Yair,

    I'm very interested in the performance of the 55-110mm zoom. It's the Hassy lens I most use and it's very, very good.

    Any comments on the new LS lenses would also be very welcome, though I'd expect them all to be excellent.
    In my experience, the 55-110 is very good at the long end, let's say 80 and above and especially when stopped down to f8-11. I can send you a 32 seconds image that was shot at 110 that would not be any sharper with any other lens.
    At 55mm it does show some barrel distortion and if opened up it'll also suffer from some CA. However it is very compact for a zoom and does cover that much needed 90-110 range. One thing to know is that the minimum focus distance is 1 metre or more.

    The 35mm has quite a lot of distortion (barrel) that requires software correction (unless you are after that look) but unlike the HC35 it doesn't have the "moustache" effect. Like most MF lenses it will show some CA and purple fringing when opened up. Stopped down to f8 it is very sharp and corner sharpness is also reasonably good. Like all the Mamiya lenses it is very small which is great for travel.

    55mm: that was the one I used the least and compared to the Contax 55mm (I had a Contax at the same time) I think the Contax was better and sharper across the f range.

    80mm (non D, D and LS) are all very good and are on par with the best from Zeiss and Schneider (Rollei, Contax, H'blad V). The old non D one is tiny (I've lost one in a field in Canada when I was there with MR 3.5 years ago).

    120mm (D or non D): a SUPERB lens. Straight and sharp with no distortion or artefacts across the f range. As it is manual focus only, the "feel" of the focusing ring is also very very good. Being a macro it is still very good for general tele shooting.

    210mm: Very good and sharp stopped down to f8 or smaller. The built in hood is very handy and the AF for such a long lens is also quite good (especially with the DF body)

    I general I would say that most of the Mamiya lenses tend to be less contrasty when compared to HC or some Schneiders, which makes some people think they are not as sharp. But if you test them for resolution side-by-side they are all very good. The "lack" of contrast makes some of them very favourable for portraits and people, much like the RZ lenses.

    All IMO

    Yair

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    Anyone have any experience with the 500/5.6?
    I've been trying to buy one from KEH since I posted that, but with no success. I hereby officially nominate their store as the most frustrating, annoying, broken, amateurishly designed, and slowest on the planet. I'd rather chew on a wad of paper than try to buy something from them. Unfortunately I can't find the 500/5.6 anywhere else. If you should happen to encounter one in decent condition, for sale, let me know...

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Jan:

    Whenever thunderstorms land in the midwest, their server seems to go down or get really slow. Try calling them and placing the order manually. IME, they are super to deal with. As a huge plus, they give you a no questions return period so you can test the lens and return it of it doesn't suit. They are currently showing a few of the 500's in stock.

    KEH Sales: (770) 333-4200

    PS: If you get one, I would LOVE to meet up with you when you test it

    PPS: All that said, as I mentioned in the above review of the 200's, I do have the 200/2.8 APO plus the 2xN converter that makes a very decent 400/5.6 (best stopped down a few) if you want to try that out. Of course that particular 2x also works on the 500
    Jack
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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    No worries. Assumed as much. One aspect of the lenses that yaya points out that I really like, is the lower contrast vs say Zeiss. Overall, the M645 units at least, have a drawing style that is easy to get hooked on.

    Interesting thread - will make nice reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by kipling View Post
    Thanks Rob,
    I intended the thread to be a help for people interested in the phaseone 645 system. So I don't think it would help. Thanks anyway.

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    Re: Phaseone/Mamiya comprehensive lens list and analysis

    Hi Jack - it would be fun to try it out side by side with the 200 + 2x. And yeah, I didn't mean to suggest not doing business with KEH, I know they're great to deal with. But their online store sure leaves a lot to be desired...

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