Need Info on Focal Plane MFD solution.

[fotografz]

Hi all you who love spending other people's money ... :ROTFL:

I'm after "optical character." The only "system" of lenses I've consistently seen that look I crave has been the Zeiss V FE range of lenses ... of which I still have from 50FE to 350FE and both extenders and all the tubes. IMO, these lenses are different from the leaf shutter V lenses which are for the most part, shall we say, more perfect eek ... I sold all my V mount C type glass because frankly (IMHO) the HC series did the same job @ 1/800th sync as well as AF.

The FE lenses do not work on my H camera, and I've given up hope waiting for a focal plane shutter H body.

I looked very closely at the Leica S2, and simply haven't loved any of the images yet. Really wanted to love them, but didn't. If there was a V adapter for the S2 I'd rethink that option in a NY heart beat.

I'm thinking a focal plane body with a Phase One back ... using a V adapter. The 203FE with CFV/39 is an excellent solution but not readily useable in portrait orientation, is limited to 1/2000th, and can never take an AF lens later on if desired. So I decided to keep an original 203FE unaltered for occasional film photography with the e-film backs the way it was designed.

Now I'll be up front, I never took to the Mamiya 645 camera ... but have not experienced anything past the AFD-II ... I've never had the Phase One version in hand, nor even touched the new Phase One D body.

Does this new Phase One D camera provide for in-viewfinder focus confirmation? Are there manual focus split diagonal screens available?

In your opinion, is 60 meg pushing the FE lenses to far? Keeping in mind that it's the character of the lenses I love ... but would like a much higher resolution capability than available from my Sony A900 and Leica M9 which both deliver the character desired but are limited in resolution and all the other things that come with a near 645 sensor and high meg count.

Your thought would be most welcome ... and dealer PMs most welcome.

Thanks to all you knowledgable folks on this forum, :thumbs:

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Marc you can certainly get a chance to try one out, that is not a issue . I'm sure Steve would love to do that for you on the Phase stuff. Little worried if the Zeiss glass will hold with a 60 mpx back. Yes there is focus confirm and I believe you can get a split screen through Brightscreen or even the old Mamiya screens may work. We would have to look into that. Actually I would like a split screen with my crop lines myself which I am pretty sure Brightscreen can custom make. I do think you should try the new DF and there are some screaming upgrade paths as well. I will let Steve and Doug talk about this more since it is there product line.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes they do and and do custom screens. I may inquiry about this myself. I wish Phase sold these already made. HINT HINT HINT

 

[carstenw]

Marc, have you thought about using the PME90 and grip on the 203FE? Someone even managed to adapt the apparently more ergonomic 500-series grip, in case that is a sticking point. That would help with the portrait orientation, although it would be heavy.

Alternatively, have you considered a Leaf back? Some models have an internal rotating sensor, and they have a very good reputation for skin tones, right down your life of work. Capture One support is in the pipeline, I believe.

 

[gogopix]

........... Little worried if the Zeiss glass will hold with a 60 mpx back. .....

I use a lot of Zeiss (Hassey 500 200 -that is CF and F, and Z designed Contax)) glass and at 100% crop with a P65 see no degradation in detail . They are not as sharp as a Schneider XR lens but you won't with a retrofocus vs non.

Maybe others have comment? Rollei seems to be holding up well with Graham's 40MP, and the linear increase is only 20%

I don't think glass is the worry yet, even for the older lenses

Victor

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Victor have not tried them at those levels yet and just was not sure. I know my Mamiya glass holds up but was not sure of the older lens designs out there.

 

[fotografz]

Marc, have you thought about using the PME90 and grip on the 203FE? Someone even managed to adapt the apparently more ergonomic 500-series grip, in case that is a sticking point. That would help with the portrait orientation, although it would be heavy.

Alternatively, have you considered a Leaf back? Some models have an internal rotating sensor, and they have a very good reputation for skin tones, right down your life of work. Capture One support is in the pipeline, I believe.

Yeah, the CFV still a possibility no doubt. Already use a PME45. Been there done that and it's great ... yet, the prospect of also using AF lenses with a flash sync up to 1/1,600th is interesting with a Phase One solution.

I need not be sold on Leaf capture ... I had a 75s and it was great ... especially with people and using lenses like the FEs. But those backs do not work on a 203FE. The integrated nature of the Phase kit is of interest, and I've always liked how the Phase Backs enveloped the battery rather than it hanging off the bottom of the digital back ... which is okay on a tripod, but not so good shooting on the fly.

Thanks,

-Marc

 

[JimCollum]

Y
I need not be sold on Leaf capture ... I had a 75s and it was great ... especially with people and using lenses like the FEs. But those backs do not work on a 203FE.

-Marc

yup.. and i'm still lovin it

and the favorite lenses on that back for me are the 110/2, and 50/2.8 FE's. I'm using the AFDII and the Mamiya adapter, and they work great. The AFDII body does have a focus confirmation.

 

[David Klepacki]

Marc,

I am also a long time Zeiss fan, and have owned all of their Medium format lenses at some point or another. My favorite lenses also turned out to be the FE ones, and I used them for a long time on both the Hasselblad and Contax 645 cameras (via MAM adapter). I have since switched to the Sinar M system, where I can now use my FE glass, but also take advantage of the Zeiss digital reworking of some of the best CFE glass (40IF, 80, 120, and 180).

I ended up selling all of my Hasselblad bodies and Contax 645 gear, since the M system does everything I want, with the lenses that I want. In addition, it can be used on Sinar P2 or P3 view cameras when needed.

Some of the highlights of this system for me:
-- accepts all Hasselblad C/CF/CFi/CFE/F/FE glass
-- rangefinder configuration with Rodenstock HR28mm lens
-- as fast or faster than any AF on the market today (with the Zeiss AF glass)
-- interchangeable viewfinders (WLF, prism, tele)
-- M flash sync with any lens (sync when shutter begins to open; I routinely use at 1/500, but have shot with 1/1000 flash sync when needed)
-- Digital Zeiss AF lenses (crown jewel being the AF version of the CFE 40IF)
-- Camera battery same as for digital back, and non-proprietary
-- True mirror lockup (and stays locked until manually reset)
-- best live view, by far, of any system on the market

Some of the limitations of this system:
-- no TTL flash (hasn't been a problem for me, but I mention it)
-- only four AF lenses (ideal would be to have AF version of 300TPP)
-- prism not as bright as H3D (more like Contax 645)
-- HR28mm not rangefinder coupled (use like Alpa, or with live view)
-- no vertical grip (discontinued, which I agree as it was too big and heavy)
-- limited to Sinar eMotion and eVolution backs (currently max of 33MP)

Right now, Sinar is slow in updating their backs to higher resolution. Dalsa made a 48MP chip for them, but then Jenoptik dumped them. So, it is unclear whether they will continue with the 48MP sensor, or just jump to a higher density back at a later time.

David

 

[David Klepacki]

I have been getting some private emails about this camera, so I would like to clarify some things.

First, the M camera does have a max shutter speed of 1/2000, which I did not list as a limitation, although some people might consider it as such.

Most of the questions I am getting pertain to the M sync flash. The M sync flash is really useful, but in only a limited scenario. Specifically, we found it useful to use as fill flash with fast lenses for outdoor portraits. The higher flash speeds do NOT work well for low ambient light situations, including most studio setups. It also does not work well with wireless flash setups, since there is typically too much delay introduced.

Basically, the M sync port is activated the instant the shutter begins to open. If your shutter speed is too slow, then the flash will be over before the image is captured. If your shutter speed is too high, then less flash gets into the shot, and the image is underexposed (but can be pulled in post). There is a sweet spot that we manually found to be at 1/500 with an EV equivalent to F2.8 at this speed. I expect this could deviate a little for others depending on cable quality, cable length and shutter speed accuracy. So, while this works great for our use, please check it out yourself to ensure it meets your specific needs.

 

[Jack]

Does this new Phase One D camera provide for in-viewfinder focus confirmation? Are there manual focus split diagonal screens available?

Yes and Yes -- at least AFD3 body had focus confirm with any lens mounted, so I assume that will carry through to the DF body. I can confirm it next week if we get the loaner DF to shoot with the S2. (FWIW, I do not think the AFD1 did allow for AF confirm with non-AF lenses, but the AFD2 did.) Plus there are plethora of screens available for the AFD 1/2/3, including split microprism. I sold mine since the Focus Confirm dot is so accurate I never relied on the split anyway. Not sure the screens are the same in the DF yet, again will try and confirm visually when I get a body.

In your opinion, is 60 meg pushing the FE lenses to far? Keeping in mind that it's the character of the lenses I love ... but would like a much higher resolution capability than available from my Sony A900 and Leica M9 which both deliver the character desired but are limited in resolution and all the other things that come with a near 645 sensor and high meg count.

Bottom line is my P45+ outresolved my 110 FE lens and why I sold it. HOWEVER, the character remained so that should be a non-issue -- just don't expect perfect pixels stopped down, rather plan on using it for the character. If I get the P65+ next week, I'll toss up some 145 SF and 80/1.9 examples for you to take a close look at.

My thought is this: Worst case is the DF body doesn't integrate well with the older MF glass or focus screens, then you could just start out dedicating an AFD3 Mamiya or Phase body to the legacy glass. (The AFD3 body is maybe $2000 - $2500 now on the used market, AFD2 a grand less?) However, I suspect he DF will be fully compatible with lenses and screens. HOWEVER -- and especially for YOU -- the DF body will NOT accept film backs. So I suspect you're going to want an AFD2/3 body hanging around anyway...

So in summary, best of all worlds would be whatever legacy you want, whatever AF and LS glass you want, an AFD2/3 body and a DF body. Perfect, simple kit and you have back-up

My .02 only...

 

[JimCollum]

Jack,

I can bring over the 110/2 and 50/2.8 to test on the 65+

Yes and Yes -- at least AFD3 body had focus confirm with any lens mounted, so I assume that will carry through to the DF body. I can confirm it next week if we get the loaner DF to shoot with the S2. (FWIW, I do not think the AFD1 did allow for AF confirm with non-AF lenses, but the AFD2 did.) Plus there are plethora of screens available for the AFD 1/2/3, including split microprism. I sold mine since the Focus Confirm dot is so accurate I never relied on the split anyway. Not sure the screens are the same in the DF yet, again will try and confirm visually when I get a body.


Bottom line is my P45+ outresolved my 110 FE lens and why I sold it. HOWEVER, the character remained so that should be a non-issue -- just don't expect perfect pixels stopped down, rather plan on using it for the character. If I get the P65+ next week, I'll toss up some 145 SF and 80/1.9 examples for you to take a close look at.

My thought is this: Worst case is the DF body doesn't integrate well with the older MF glass or focus screens, then you could just start out dedicating an AFD3 Mamiya or Phase body to the legacy glass. (The AFD3 body is maybe $2000 - $2500 now on the used market, AFD2 a grand less?) However, I suspect he DF will be fully compatible with lenses and screens. HOWEVER -- and especially for YOU -- the DF body will NOT accept film backs. So I suspect you're going to want an AFD2/3 body hanging around anyway...

So in summary, best of all worlds would be whatever legacy you want, whatever AF and LS glass you want, an AFD2/3 body and a DF body. Perfect, simple kit and you have back-up

My .02 only...

 

[Jack]

Jack,

I can bring over the 110/2 and 50/2.8 to test on the 65+

Be happy to do those at the same time too -- might be good for the archives...

 

[fotografz]

Yes and Yes -- at least AFD3 body had focus confirm with any lens mounted, so I assume that will carry through to the DF body. I can confirm it next week if we get the loaner DF to shoot with the S2. (FWIW, I do not think the AFD1 did allow for AF confirm with non-AF lenses, but the AFD2 did.) Plus there are plethora of screens available for the AFD 1/2/3, including split microprism. I sold mine since the Focus Confirm dot is so accurate I never relied on the split anyway. Not sure the screens are the same in the DF yet, again will try and confirm visually when I get a body.


Bottom line is my P45+ outresolved my 110 FE lens and why I sold it. HOWEVER, the character remained so that should be a non-issue -- just don't expect perfect pixels stopped down, rather plan on using it for the character. If I get the P65+ next week, I'll toss up some 145 SF and 80/1.9 examples for you to take a close look at.

My thought is this: Worst case is the DF body doesn't integrate well with the older MF glass or focus screens, then you could just start out dedicating an AFD3 Mamiya or Phase body to the legacy glass. (The AFD3 body is maybe $2000 - $2500 now on the used market, AFD2 a grand less?) However, I suspect he DF will be fully compatible with lenses and screens. HOWEVER -- and especially for YOU -- the DF body will NOT accept film backs. So I suspect you're going to want an AFD2/3 body hanging around anyway...

So in summary, best of all worlds would be whatever legacy you want, whatever AF and LS glass you want, an AFD2/3 body and a DF body. Perfect, simple kit and you have back-up

My .02 only...

It'd be interesting to see those FE lenses used with Sensor Plus @ 15 meg also.

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Marc I really like the sensor plus idea . You know I don't need 40 mpx on half this stuff and what I like is the 10 mpx for the P40+ that is and still get the MF look that I like in the first place. It still is a MF file just smaller and man i can't tell ya how handy that is when under the gun to process fast. And a very clean 800 to boot. I need to find those test files. Looking

 

[Cindy Flood]

Yes and Yes -- at least AFD3 body had focus confirm with any lens mounted, so I assume that will carry through to the DF body. I can confirm it next week if we get the loaner DF to shoot with the S2. (FWIW, I do not think the AFD1 did allow for AF confirm with non-AF lenses, but the AFD2 did.) Plus there are plethora of screens available for the AFD 1/2/3, including split microprism. I sold mine since the Focus Confirm dot is so accurate I never relied on the split anyway. Not sure the screens are the same in the DF yet, again will try and confirm visually when I get a body. ...snip...

I recently bought Guy's AFD1 and I do get the green dot with my 80 f/1.9 manual focus lens.

 

[Jack]

I recently bought Guy's AFD1 and I do get the green dot with my 80 f/1.9 manual focus lens.

Thanks for the correction Cindy -- that's good news for sure!

 

[PSon]

Jack,
The last 110mm you sold got optical problems which was eventually got resolved. Thus it may not be the lens to put the final conclusion on.
Best Regards,
Son

 

[PSon]

The recent progress in optics primarily aims at wide angle lens and creating super wide angle lens. In these cases the lens in general are optimized at infinity focus such as the Rodenstock HR lens which were built for technical camera while the super wide angle SLR medium format lens are optimized with using software. For medium and longer focal length in general, modern lens designed to optimize closer focusing than at infinity and enhance with software. For example the Hasselblad Carl Zeiss Planar T* 3.5/100 CFi (old designed) is optimized at infinity while the Hasselblad HC 2.2/100 (new) is at closer distance. In the end we have not seen a modern lens that can deliver both characteristic and high resolution at the same time. This is not to say the modern lens are not good; they were designed for digital purpose to overcome the aberrations that manifest in digital sensor. We are photographers with eyes and minds seeing and capturing beauty. We do not care much about the technology unless it can deliver what our hearts love. Thus, many of us are still stuck with using older lens. This is why folks like Jack and Guy still using the Mamiya 1.9/80 and other using the Planar 2.0/110 lens. Thus, the use of focal plane shutter is essential for professional photographers such as Marc who would love to use his Hasselblad 200 series FE lens. This is why I attempt to use digital back that allow me to shoot with limitation on the Hasselblad 205FCC camera. I also use the Sinar m camera and the Rollei lens with the Hy6 since these two systems also have similar lens as the Hasselblad 200 series lens. Each systems has its strengths and weakness and each photographer requirement is different from the other. The decision is not easy; too many critical decisions to make and too much emotion is involved. From my view Marc is so well known in the world of Hasselblad V system and the 200 series lens and so I can see his love for these lens and I am sure he will miss them. Perhaps one of the focal plane shutter medium format systems may alleviate this situation via using the adapter.
Best Regards,
Son

 

[Rafa]

Marc,
I have used a Mamiya 645 AFD (version 1) with the 350FE, 150 FE and 80 FE and the adapter and it has focus confirmation with all of these manual lenses. I'm using them on a P45+. The only lens I don't quite like the results I'm getting is the 350FE. Mind you I have not done extensive tests with this lens so it could be that I need to change my shooting style but I'm getting results that are a bit soft for my tastes, which is in line to the results I was getting on film with this lens too so it could be my copy. On not exhaustive tests I didn't see marked differences between the 150FE and the 80FE and their Mamiya counterparts. After I bought the Mamiya lenses I have not used the Hassy ones.
The 1st gen AFD is slow as a dog but dirt cheap on the "virtual flea market" but I have found it doesn't bother me much, for studio work I need to wait for the packs to recycle anyway, and for landscape work slowness is not a big issue. Obviously, YMMV.

You could rent any of the Mamiya or Phase One bodies and the adapter and test for yourself. After all, we all have different requirements and we are willing to accept different trade offs.

Good luck,
Rafa