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Thread: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

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    A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    A mentor of mine once explained the meaning of being decisive when I was waffling back and forth about a layout I was working on (with a looming deadline BTW):

    "Boy, I say Boy, get it through your thick scull ... when you make a decision, you eliminate all the other possibilities."

    With today's state of MFD, the possibilities are indeed mind boggling.

    And every possibility is well presented and very well represented on this great forum.

    In my deliberations about my next MFD move I've heard from folks I simply trust at their word ... David, Chris, Steve ... and my current Michigan area Hasselblad dealer Jim Arnosky ... not to mention all the accumulated wisdom and experience of the member's here.

    For me this may well be my last big MFD move because retirement looms ... not retirement from making photos, retirement from making the serious coin needed to make any move in MFD ...

    Sort of a last Hurrah! ... so it has to be a good one.

    I must say, the new things from Phase One are absolutely delicious to think about. WOW has Mamiya/Phase made miraculous moves in the past few years.

    And the Leica S2 certainly gives one pause by presenting a fork in the road for those looking for just the right system to fit their needs. I have no doubt that it'll all come together for Leica.

    Then both Phase One and Hasselblad have some of the most aggressive promotions I've seen in many years.

    So the waffling is over ... sort of.

    In the end the S2 didn't fit my need for diverse studio use, and couldn't replace the DSLR system ... plus, the price was just to steep to add it as a third kit. Great camera, no doubt about it IMO!

    The Phase One P65+ was the real contender with an improved camera, Sensor Plus and Schneider LS optics. However, no matter how I crunched the numbers it represented a staggering cost to swap out from Hasselblad ... even with the VERY tempting and aggressive trade-in promo. This isn't like going from Canon to Nikon or Sony.

    Plus, we forget about all the auxiliary support stuff that surrounds a well planned MFD system. Like a $2,000. sliding back for my view camera, my H2F and 3 film backs, and CF adapter ... and so on ... and so on. Really complex and expensive.

    So it will be the H4D/60 swap out promo ... which for me is the least expensive route by far. So much less expensive that I could add the CFV/39 for the 203FE and still have money left over.

    It provides the 60 meg near FF sensor to distance my MFD capture from future 35mm DSLRs, preserves the investment in lenses and the endless stuff that goes with a diverse kit, allows use of the WLF that I often use in the studio .... and frankly requires little to no learning curve in terms of operation, software etc. etc. In addition, I've gotten feedback about the new focusing system for people who I trust quite a bit, and it promises to be a very valuable asset for the way I shoot out of the studio.

    To those who have assisted me in this trek, I offer my most sincere thanks.

    -Marc

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Congrats on your decision Marc and thanks for sharing your thought process!

    Bottom line is yes, the cost of a swap becomes a HUGE factor once you're already invested in a given manufacturer's system (at least assuming they are still in business)! So the best word to the wise to glean from this is choose wisely at the onset... The next point is equally important though, there really isn't a bad first choice . Differences in intended use and overall system function aside, these are all stellar systems capable of producing the best images current technology can offer.

    Congrats,
    Jack
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Sound like a great choice marc. As far as IQ is concerned you're set for anything that comes your way. Hassy has some great features, great lenses, great accessories and Phocus seems to be about to catch up to some of the best software solutions out there - crossing my fingers on that one.

    Anyway, I think it’s a smart move on your part.
    Good luck with your business and have fun stacking the TB hard drives for those monster files!

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    I agree to all of everyones comments. First good luck Marc but you bring up the biggest point that rolls around in our heads and most important is it is very hard to switch sometimes so chose very wisely in the beginning. I'm really trying to upgrade before the year is out and scouring the couches looking for lose change to do it. Even if I want the S2 it won't happen this year obviously and I need the tax break. Accepting all lose change from the water fountains. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Congratulation Marc on the H4D-60. This also has been a great struggles for me as well and I am too happy to tell you at least one of my friend also now going with the H4D-60 and I myself are close to follow behind.
    Best Regards,
    Son

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Not to spoil the party but has anyone seen any images from the new 60 yet?

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    I just went through the selection process. Need a 60 back, primarily, and was fairly sold on Phase because of the track record of the 65+.

    Then I had a demo of C1 running an AF / P65+. To be fair, the firmware and C1 version had been installed minutes before. At any rate, shooting tethered was a painful experience and that is critical to me. I couldn't even focus from the keyboard. Other things - found the manual focus on the lens loose, viewfinder was difficult to focus with, viewfinder and back data display poor, and the menu system not to my taste. Touchy-feely issues.

    So I went to the Hasselblad dealer and said "show me". Well, he couldn't. Best he could do because of Phocus liveview limitations was an H3/39. Never mind, it worked beautifully on that platform. The software was totally integrated with the camera. I could adjust everything, do stepped focus series - all without touching the body. Price of the 4D with the HCD 35-90 was about 10% higher than the P1DF/80. The viewfinder was glorious, the display was just OK but the 4D/60 should be better (please God), I preferred the menu system.......

    Took an H3/50 home for a couple of days. That 35-90 is wonderful, but still no cigar until I was sure that liveview is guaranteed with the 4D/60. Contacting Hasselblad central revealed they are in the final of three stages of testing and that release is imminent (weeks). Do I believe them? Well, I guess maybe kinda. Just like I believe they will have my 4D in January. At least they appear to be 100% commited to it. In contrast, I was told (by the P1 rep) that liveview is not a top priority for C1.

    Just one person's experience. If the 4Ds come in with bits falling off of them, boy will I feel silly.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Not to spoil the party but has anyone seen any images from the new 60 yet?
    No, and they haven't seen one penny from me yet either

    Now to get the HTS 1.5 ... I want that puppy for selective focus full length portraits with the 100/2.2 ... and for some food work.

    That I can slap on the H3D-II/39 immediately.

    -Marc

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    I just went through the selection process. Need a 60 back, primarily, and was fairly sold on Phase because of the track record of the 65+.

    Then I had a demo of C1 running an AF / P65+. To be fair, the firmware and C1 version had been installed minutes before. At any rate, shooting tethered was a painful experience and that is critical to me. I couldn't even focus from the keyboard. Other things - found the manual focus on the lens loose, viewfinder was difficult to focus with, viewfinder and back data display poor, and the menu system not to my taste. Touchy-feely issues.

    So I went to the Hasselblad dealer and said "show me". Well, he couldn't. Best he could do because of Phocus liveview limitations was an H3/39. Never mind, it worked beautifully on that platform. The software was totally integrated with the camera. I could adjust everything, do stepped focus series - all without touching the body. Price of the 4D with the HCD 35-90 was about 10% higher than the P1DF/80. The viewfinder was glorious, the display was just OK but the 4D/60 should be better (please God), I preferred the menu system.......

    Took an H3/50 home for a couple of days. That 35-90 is wonderful, but still no cigar until I was sure that liveview is guaranteed with the 4D/60. Contacting Hasselblad central revealed they are in the final of three stages of testing and that release is imminent (weeks). Do I believe them? Well, I guess maybe kinda. Just like I believe they will have my 4D in January. At least they appear to be 100% commited to it. In contrast, I was told (by the P1 rep) that liveview is not a top priority for C1.

    Just one person's experience. If the 4Ds come in with bits falling off of them, boy will I feel silly.
    FYI, Hassey has doubled the resolution of the LCD rear display of the H4D ... that should help.

    I agree that reliable live view is critical for any of these systems ... that always seems to be slow on the uptake with newer MFD cameras.

    Funny you mentioned doing everything from the computer ... it's getting really bad ... my behind is spreading out like Dumbo's ... and my forearm looks like Popeye's ... from never getting up anymore ...



    -Marc

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Took an H3/50 home for a couple of days. That 35-90 is wonderful, but still no cigar until I was sure that liveview is guaranteed with the 4D/60. Contacting Hasselblad central revealed they are in the final of three stages of testing and that release is imminent (weeks). Do I believe them? Well, I guess maybe kinda. Just like I believe they will have my 4D in January. At least they appear to be 100% commited to it. In contrast, I was told (by the P1 rep) that liveview is not a top priority for C1.
    All currently shipping P40+/P65+ have Live View enabled (read: it works today). The firmware for Live View with the P65+/P40+ is available on phaseone.com for anyone who purchased their back while this firmware was still in development.

    I've tested P65+ Live View, and it is significantly better than the Live View of the P45+/P30+/P25+/P21+/P20+. (still not comparable with Canon/Nikon, but the best Phase Live View I've ever seen).

    Capture One 5.0.1 has Live View for both Windows and Mac. Today. For free.

    So this statement confuses me.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 4th December 2009 at 12:46.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    cunim, I don't want to detract from your choice, but I am sure that Phase could have demonstrated a perfectly functioning tethered P45+. I think that when the H4D-60 is ready, you should re-check the P65+ at the same time, to be completely unbiased.

    [Edit: and, erm, what Doug said.]
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    cunim, I don't want to detract from your choice, but I am sure that Phase could have demonstrated a perfectly functioning tethered P45+. I think that when the H4D-60 is ready, you should re-check the P65+ at the same time, to be completely unbiased.

    [Edit: and, erm, what Doug said.]
    I would also (from my openly biased position) points out that tethered capture in the professional ("someone gets fired if something screws up") rental/digital-tech markets of Miami/NYC/LC are dominated by Phase One backs and Capture One software. Google "digital tech [city name]", call a handful, and ask them "if I hire you and want to shoot medium format what would YOU prefer we shoot?" and see what they say.

    I'd say you got a bad demo on a good product.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I would also (from my openly biased position) points out that tethered capture in the professional ("someone gets fired if something screws up") rental/digital-tech markets of Miami/NYC/LC are dominated by Phase One backs and Capture One software. Google "digital tech [city name]", call a handful, and ask them "if I hire you and want to shoot medium format what would YOU prefer we shoot?" and see what they say.

    I'd say you got a bad demo on a good product.
    Well Doug, I've had Phase One systems go down on shoots in NYC, Chicago and LA ... and I don't recall anyone getting fired.

    These are computers folks, they all have hiccups from time to time, and everyone knows it. The measure of the tech assist is how fast they can get the photographer back shooting.

    IMO, the tech assist folks don't get paid enough for the stress they have to deal with.

    -Marc

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    I hope I did not appear critical of P1 products in general. I am a newcomer to MFD and was trying to give that perspective on the selection process. I would have benefited from knowing what to expect before the demos.

    All I can report is what I saw with one specific camera, back, firmware, and C1 configuration. No implications re other configratons. I did point out that the firmware and C1 were both brand new versions so this was probably difficult for the rep.

    I would be interested in knowing whether the issues I saw are real or just artefacts of the demo process.

    - We had to hold down the shutter button in bulb mode to get LV. Really hard to see the computer screen when you do that. We could have locked the shutter with a cable but didn't have one. Can that really be the way it is supposed to work?
    - To take the shot, we had to then switch out of bulb on the back and reset to manual, aperture priority etc. That is very strange so it must have been a misunderstanding.
    - The camera hung a few times and had to be reset.
    - We could not focus the lens from the computer, much less move focus in regular intervals. As I do stepped focus series for later convolution, this is important to me.
    - I tried to focus through the finder but was unable to achieve a good result. Of course, the 60 back is more critical than the H3/50 I did focus with later - so that may be an unfair test.
    - For my eyes, the finder kept cutting part of the data display at bottom. I had to move my gaze around to restore it.

    Lots of other little things. Perhaps I just saw C1/liveview with the P65+ back too early. I didn't see the H3D/50 with liveview at all but I did find impelmentation on the 39 back to be well engineered. Here I am relying on Hasselblad to make Phocus 2.0 do everything with the 60 back that 1.2.1 does with the 39. What, me worry?

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    cunim, I don't want to detract from your choice, but I am sure that Phase could have demonstrated a perfectly functioning tethered P45+. I think that when the H4D-60 is ready, you should re-check the P65+ at the same time, to be completely unbiased.

    [Edit: and, erm, what Doug said.]
    I totally agree with that.

    I think Doug has cleared up that issue.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Marc - stop pussy footing around and get yourself an Alpa 12SWA or WA - then add a 28 Rodenstock or a 35Schneider...make a few shots - it will put/relagate the SLR in 35mm and MF stuff into context...

    Pete

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    get yourself an Alpa 12SWA or WA - then add a 28 Rodenstock or a 35Schneider...make a few shots - it will put/relagate the SLR in 35mm and MF stuff into context...
    Pete
    Pete
    That is exactly my thinking as well .
    After I could hold the ALPA 12SWA with that
    RODENSTOCK DIGARON-S 4,5/28mm in my hands , I put that beauty on the top of my wishlist . The images I saw were just tremendous .
    I will hire that camera for a day or two after x-mas .
    It is not all that expensive . 130 € per day for the 12SWA , V-system adapter (unadjusted) , DIGARON-S 28mm lens plus an APO GRANDAGON 4,5/45mm and a 6x9 filmback .

    I believe , that 12SWA would be a phantastic wide angle supplement to my V-SYSTEM gear .

    Jürgen

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Marc - stop pussy footing around and get yourself an Alpa 12SWA or WA - then add a 28 Rodenstock or a 35Schneider...make a few shots - it will put/relagate the SLR in 35mm and MF stuff into context...

    Pete


    Peter,

    As much as I love the precision and look of the ALPA, and need not be sold on the IQ of the digital view lenses (remember, I use a Rollei Xact-2) ... I'm just not a field camera kind of shooter.

    The HTS 1.5 most likely pales in comparison to a tech camera and HR view lenses, but for me ultimate IQ gear is the gear I will actually use

    I want to do some selective focus people work like that I've seen done with the Canon and Nikon TS lenses ... except at 60 meg., full 645.

    I have sent my order for the HTS 1.5 to use while sequestered in my studio for the long winter months ahead ... no weddings until spring, so I can concentrate on something else.

    I'm excited about the possibilities. Possibilities about something creative rather than MFD gear possibilities ... which I'm pretty tired of thinking about.

    -Marc

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    ...but for me ultimate IQ gear is the gear I will actually use
    -Marc
    Amen.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    I can understand exactly what you are saying Marc.

    Well i for one will be very interested in your views on the HTS - I was looking forward t it very much - but it seems to be a device for tethered shooting - good for a studio - not so good for the 'field' - it is why I am interested in the arTEc..

    let me know what you think when you have played with it for a while - might save me quite a few bucks..and yes the portrait and still life potential of this thing is really interesting..

    Pete

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    - We could not focus the lens from the computer, much less move focus in regular intervals. As I do stepped focus series for later convolution, this is important to me.
    Phase will be adding the functionality of putting the body mirror up to the DF body when used with the 40/65 Live View. However, it does not do so today. That would mean you would not need a cable release, or to switch the mode of the body (and you could select aperture/shutter-speed from C1). They also are experimenting around with adding focus racking within C1; no firmness on this though - it's under development.

    If it's important to you to have focus racking from the software today than the Hassy is a better solution for you.

    Why do you need the stepped focus from the software and why can you not manually rack the focus? Could you move the subject instead? See my extreme macro work done with a Phase One system, made possible because I could trigger the back without any mechanical movement (not even a shutter). (note I am not saying that solution would work for you since I have no idea what you're shooting - just asking out of curiosity - it does sound like the Hassy integrated focus and shooting system would work better for you, at least until/unless Phase adds these features to the DF body.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Marc:

    FWIW, my P65+ arrived this morning and I gave it the quick run through. Part of that was shooting a few frames with the old legacy glass. I can confirm for you that those lenses hold their character across the 6 micron sensor, so no worries there. Not only that, they hold it across the binned (12 micron) sensor too.

    A note on binning -- VERY cool feature! 3200 binned is a bit noisy, but certainly usable -- probably a little better than the 1Ds3 at 3200. 400 bin is perfectly clean.

    Other nice thing is how fast the back is, plus notably less shutter lag than the P45+ back -- I suspect due to the Dalsa instead of Kodak flushing routines.
    Jack
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Lucky you! I'm still waiting for mine.....
    Bill

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I can confirm for you that those lenses hold their character across the 6 micron sensor, so no worries there.
    Just for my curiosity, how could you tell if the lenses are great enough for 6um sensor? Thanks in advance.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by MFnLF View Post
    Just for my curiosity, how could you tell if the lenses are great enough for 6um sensor? Thanks in advance.
    I said they held their character -- that's different than saying they are good enough for the sensor.

    By holding their character, I mean that the original bokeh and other pleasing aberrations remain visible in the final image.
    Jack
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Marc:

    FWIW, my P65+ arrived this morning
    Congratulations to your family on your new baby!


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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Thanks Ken, i's pretty sweet. If you haven't loaded the latest firmware, my advice is to do it now -- some nice added conveniences
    Jack
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Marc:

    FWIW, my P65+ arrived this morning...
    Just caught this Congratulations!
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Thanks Don. And yeah, you want one...
    Jack
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Yes you're right. Just don't turn your back on it at the mission
    Don Libby
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post
    Yes you're right. Just don't turn your back on it at the mission
    The cops are gonna need an updated moniker for stealing cameras like this ...

    Grand Theft Camera!

    10 to 15 in the Big House.

    (Video Game to follow).



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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Marc:

    FWIW, my P65+ arrived this morning and I gave it the quick run through.
    CONGRATS Jack!!!!

    how do you feel about Long Exposure with P65+ ?

    if and when you have time.. I would appreciate if you could post few examples.. thanks!! I heard about process (if I'm not mistaken with term) stacking images in PS to make it look like 10, 20,30, etc minutes.. but I couldn't understand how could 30 sec of max exposure images stacked together result in x amount of minutes exposure.. unfortunately there is
    not much hope googling in this direction..

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The cops are gonna need an updated moniker for stealing cameras like this ...

    Grand Theft Camera!

    10 to 15 in the Big House.

    (Video Game to follow).


    I looking at a whole new purpose for a "body-guard"!
    Don Libby
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post
    CONGRATS Jack!!!!

    how do you feel about Long Exposure with P65+ ?

    if and when you have time.. I would appreciate if you could post few examples.. thanks!! I heard about process (if I'm not mistaken with term) stacking images in PS to make it look like 10, 20,30, etc minutes.. but I couldn't understand how could 30 sec of max exposure images stacked together result in x amount of minutes exposure.. unfortunately there is
    not much hope googling in this direction..
    P65+ is limited to 60 seconds max at normal working temps, up to 120 seconds at cooler temps before noise builds up to far. This was a hurdle on the P65+ for me as on occasion I do need longer exposures. However, the reality is most of my longest exposures are still under one minute, and the few that go longer longer are usually taken in cooler environments like outdoor pre-dawn where I may get by with 2 minute exposures from the P65+. On the upside, the P65+ has better noise characteristics in general, giving about a stop better ISO performance than the P45+; so for example ISO 400 on the P65+ is about like ISO 200 on the P45+. Bottom line is I am hoping the P65+'s better ISO and noise traits will compensate for the loss, so I'll be sure to shoot some tests so I know for sure, maybe even this evening.

    As for the stacking effect emulating long exposures. This is a relatively new concept you will be hearing more about going forward. The basics are you take a series of images of the same subject, only moving the registration of the camera very slightly between each frame. The registration displacement can be vertical, horizontal or rotational depending on the final effect you desire, but the key is very tiny amounts. You then blend a stack of these frames in CS with varying opacity on the layers to tune your desired result. I may post a blog entry with examples as I learn more about it, but for now I only know the basics and have not experimented with it.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Creek View Post
    I looking at a whole new purpose for a "body-guard"!
    I'll also point out that while Don is taller than I am by about an inch, I outweigh him by maybe 20 pounds AND I'm meaner
    Jack
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    P65+ is limited to 60 seconds max at normal working temps, up to 120 seconds at cooler temps before noise builds up to far. This was a hurdle on the P65+ for me as on occasion I do need longer exposures. However, the reality is most of my longest exposures are still under one minute, and the few that go longer longer are usually taken in cooler environments like outdoor pre-dawn where I may get by with 2 minute exposures from the P65+. On the upside, the P65+ has better noise characteristics in general, giving about a stop better ISO performance than the P45+; so for example ISO 400 on the P65+ is about like ISO 200 on the P45+. Bottom line is I am hoping the P65+'s better ISO and noise traits will compensate for the loss, so I'll be sure to shoot some tests so I know for sure, maybe even this evening.

    As for the stacking effect emulating long exposures. This is a relatively new concept you will be hearing more about going forward. The basics are you take a series of images of the same subject, only moving the registration of the camera very slightly between each frame. The registration displacement can be vertical, horizontal or rotational depending on the final effect you desire, but the key is very tiny amounts. You then blend a stack of these frames in CS with varying opacity on the layers to tune your desired result. I may post a blog entry with examples as I learn more about it, but for now I only know the basics and have not experimented with it.

    Cheers,
    I played with stacking multiple images while I was shooting deep space. The idea was to take multiple images at around 1 second each ending up with close to 240 images all the while the telescope was tracking the target. Here’s an example of one that took close to 4 minutes and a heck of a lot of images.

    Orion Nebula:




    So, if this can be done with a telescope shooting deep space I don’t see why you couldn’t do the same with a P65+.

    Don
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I'll also point out that while Don is taller than I am by about an inch, I outweigh him by maybe 20 pounds AND I'm meaner
    Okay you win ….maybe
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Don, that is truly SPECTACULAR. Can you tell us more about the equipment? Must have been a pretty big reflector?

    This an area of photography I'd like to get back to - I had access to my university observatory in my youth, but in those days we gad to use glass plates! (1960s)

    Bill

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Don, that is truly SPECTACULAR. Can you tell us more about the equipment? Must have been a pretty big reflector?

    This an area of photography I'd like to get back to - I had access to my university observatory in my youth, but in those days we gad to use glass plates! (1960s)

    Bill
    Thanks Bill.

    If memory serves me this was taken with a Celestron 11” GPS telescope using a Hyperstar CCD camera and Maxim DL software. The telescope was a beast and came in two parts; the telescope itself and the tripod which was heavy as hell. The telescope looked a lot like R2D2 when sitting on the floor apart from the tripod. I used to connect to a small laptop to take the capture and storage. The initial stacking was all done with Maxim then finished in Photoshop.

    It was fun in the beginning however I soon found that there wasn’t a great commercial need/use for the images and abandoned it for landscape images. Starizona, located in Tucson but shipped worldwide is a great place to start any research on this type of photography.

    Don
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Here are some P65+ noise images. Full size at ISO 400 and binned at ISO 1600. Note that I just used default settings in C1 and nothing else. Could probably improve them a bit if I spent some time, but wanted to show it at base settings.

    Note these were taken with my 150/2.8 at f2.8 and it was pretty dark, so the full size ISO 400 shot is 1/13th sec exposure, which is the worst possible shutter speed to use and you can see the effects of shutter bounce in the image. (In a real situation I would have dialed down ISO to avoid the 1/8th to 1/30th range if I wanted optimal detail.) But, since I was specifically testing ISO 400 noise, this is what you get for now. Crops are the same total size to show you the differences in file size. Focus point was the dark seam at the head of the drinking faucet.

    Full image for reference:



    Regular ISO 400, 1/13th @ f2.8 crop, note the effects of shutter bounce:



    Binned ISO 1600, 1/50th at f2.8:



    Just for reference, here is the binned 1600 frame run through DFine at auto settings -- a little aggressive for my tastes and I would dial these settings back in real-world:



    Bottom line is I wouldn't use ISO 400 on the full sized image unless it was an emergency situation, but nice to know it's not horrible. As for the ISO 1600 shot, frankly it looks pretty good to me for 1600 and I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a situation that required ISO 1600...
    Jack
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    1. Wondering what blue artefacts are on knob protrusions
    2. Wondering why image is so soft since lens is so sharp..
    3. Think that the high ISO IQ is nothing short of amazing.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    1. Wondering what blue artefacts are on knob protrusions
    Not sure exactly which you're referring to -- the darker blue is probably specular reflection from a very dark blue sky, the lighter blue is the copper under the chrome corroding. The knob protrusions are also out of the focus plane so reflections off of them are blurred too.

    2. Wondering why image is so soft since lens is so sharp..
    As I said with the image -- shutter bounce in the first frame due to using 1/13th sec shutter speed. We had a thread on this a while back where i explained I avoided 1/15th like the plague specifically because of shutter bounce. So much, I rarely use even 1/8th or 1/30th, preferring either slower or faster. But since I had a request for both full ISO 400 and binned ISO 1600, this is what you got. It was a quickie noise test and not a resolution test.

    3. Think that the high ISO IQ is nothing short of amazing.
    Same lens, focus setting did not change between the first and second frame. Only thing that did change is the binning, the ISO going up two stops and the shutter speed increasing two stops to 1/50th.
    Jack
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Not sure exactly which you're referring to -- the darker blue is probably specular reflection from a very dark blue sky, the lighter blue is the copper under the chrome corroding. The knob protrusions are also out of the focus plane so reflections off of them are blurred too.
    Top left knob protrusion has a very dark blue line against it - was just wondering what that might be..I can also see a slight magenta caste on the body of the same knob - again maybe evening sunset reflection..

    sorry maybe I have become super conscious of these issues - especially in backs I am considering buying - because truth be told I am very frustrated with the H3D11-39 on the technical camera..


    As I said with the image -- shutter bounce in the first frame due to using 1/13th sec shutter speed. We had a thread on this a while back where i explained I avoided 1/15th like the plague specifically because of shutter bounce. So much, I rarely use even 1/8th or 1/30th, preferring either slower or faster. But since I had a request for both full ISO 400 and binned ISO 1600, this is what you got. It was a quickie noise test and not a resolution test.
    the shutter issue @ those speeds is 'interesting' I remember the thread very well..


    Same lens, focus setting did not change between the first and second frame. Only thing that did change is the binning, the ISO going up two stops and the shutter speed increasing two stops to 1/50th.
    I am (literally) very impressed with the IQ at the high ISO setting..



    Thanks
    Pete

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Like the 1600 very well. Exactly what GUY needs and binned also. I really like the idea of having a binned 1600 in a small file. For some of my work absolutely all I need and WANT.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    I would only say, not to use NR in C1. I just think it lucks like mush and is pretty ugly. Especially for printing I find a "noise" look is so much nicer than digital mush.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I'll also point out that while Don is taller than I am by about an inch, I outweigh him by maybe 20 pounds AND I'm meaner
    Jeeze, you big guys are scary ... here I am losing inches off my height because all the cartilage in my knees is gone (sports sins of youth).

    Gotta get some lifts if I want to hang around you dudes, or I'll look like a midget with a big camera.

    -Marc

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Like the 1600 very well. Exactly what GUY needs and binned also. I really like the idea of having a binned 1600 in a small file. For some of my work absolutely all I need and WANT.
    Well, they came through for you Guy ... one system to do as much as possible.

    So is it the 45 or 65?

    -Marc

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Looking to get a P40+ but need to find the scratch first. LOL

    I've tested it 2 times now and I do really think it is the best back for me. I could use the tax deduction and the S2 is just not ready this year but looking forward to testing them both this week. There is no wrong answer here on any of these systems. They all are good. Matter of what fits you.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  49. #49
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Bottom line is I wouldn't use ISO 400 on the full sized image unless it was an emergency situation, but nice to know it's not horrible.
    ... wow. Actually, given the amount of resolution, I wouldn't hesitate to use 400 if I know i weren't going to be printing huge. It's decently impressive IMO.

    For me (and I'll never own a p65+ due to $$$), I'd be interested in a comparison between a iso400 full-res shot and a binned 1600 shot up-res'd to match the full sized iso400.

    Thanks Jack.

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    Re: A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Jeeze, you big guys are scary ... here I am losing inches off my height because all the cartilage in my knees is gone (sports sins of youth).

    Gotta get some lifts if I want to hang around you dudes, or I'll look like a midget with a big camera.

    -Marc
    Don’t worry Marc we provide stools for people to stand on so we can see them and at the same time make you appear taller. Now you know how Ken feels!

    Don
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