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Thread: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

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    My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    To All the Capture Integration folks:

    A BIG thank-you for the open house last night. It was far more than what I expected. I was able to take home a card with about 30 test shots from the S-2 using the 70 and 180 APO lenses. The model was great, and some nighttime cityscapes as well.

    This was the real deal. Everyone who actually wanted to shoot could do so and with their own cards! Identical images from all the cameras were up on the 30" Ezio monitor for comparison.

    I am far from a digital expert on the level of CI or many of the people here, but what I generally saw was the following. I am going to leave cost OUT of this discussion until the end but, of course, it is the elephant in the room . . .

    IMAGE QUALITY

    The S-2 image quality was superior, there is just no other word for it. The lens sharpness was extreme on both the lenses I tested. The detail rendered seemed endless and more and more detail kept appearing even up to 800% views. The color rendering was wonderful. The tonal range was amazing with the ability to reveal fine textures in the uniform outer masonry of distant buildings. Contrast was top-notch with details visible from the brightest to the darkest areas of the photos. The flare control and bokeh was fantastic. out of focus points of light were beautiful, soft, and without outer rings. In-focus points of bright light had a lovely "starburst" effect when the lens was stopped down, with the lines uniform and detail clearly visible between the lines even right next to the light point. I did see very minor color fringing in a shot of white neon lights against the night sky, and that was only at, I am not kidding, 800% view!!. The lens performance is obviously at the very hightest level. We could see no noise at all at base ISO. I am not a high ISO weenie and so am not going to criticise noise (I always, always shoot for max quality and rarely leave base ISO). Still, what I saw from ISO 640 looked pretty good.

    HANDLING

    Where the S2 REALLY shined was in its handling. There is just no comparison with the typical MF interchangeable back set-up. It was compact and light, felt solid as a brick, and everything fell perfectly under my hands. It was like handling a slightly bulkier Canon (that is a GOOD thing) but without all the confusing buttons. Control handling became very intuitive with just a little learning due to its very simple design. Even shooting the 180mm handheld, no problem at all with no fatigue after 20 minutes. Horizontal or vertical, very easy even without the vertical grip. I don't understand the gripes I have seen about the control dial, just a few minutes and it is perfectly intuitive. Menus are easy to navigate. The finger indents make it easy to just carry the camera around in your hand always ready to shoot. The demo camera did not have a neck strap and, honestly, did not need one. The instant you pick it up you want to (and can) just start shooting. I still find my 5DII daunting after 8 months, but with the S2 I was shooting amazing 40 mp images without any thought at all and getting great results in about 2 minutes. Well done, Leica.

    Forgot to mention the viewfinder. The optics of the finder are the best in the business. Simple as that. Bright, contrasty, manual focus easy to nail. Very high eyepoint. Great diopter adjustment. No eye strain at all. 96% view is very good coverage. The info displayed, however, is slightly lacking. Don't see ISO or White balance in the finder, Also, it does not show the level of exposure compensation. Don't understand this omission, because there is a -2 to +2 scale for manual exposure--why not for compensation? With the S2 you have chimp the screen. This really needs fixing as it is a pain.

    The LCD screen looked pretty good through my Zacuto Z-finder (If you don't have one of these, get one!) but the test was at night so I withhold all judgment. Without an LCD loupe, almost all screens are useless outdoors (even the 5DII is no exception). I could see right away it was noticeably inferior to my 5DII screen. Why use such in inferior screen?? Image review is critical without live view. Use the best, Leica!! The small LCD on top of the camera is not really a useful thing. Why not have "data mode" on the rear screen so there is only one place you need to look to see all settings?

    The AF was very fast and accurate and pretty quiet compared to other MF systems. It was very quiet at the party (oops, the demo), but would be definitely noticeable in a theater--not "ultrasonic" quiet or even close. Not 35mm fast but pretty speedy. The model was on a balcony and the model lighting was dim (almost dark). The AF was very fast and locked on 70% of the time under these bad conditions--really nailing the focus point. When I needed to manual focus, I was able to nail it even with my 52 year old eyeballs. The MF feel of the lenses was just amazing. When focusing on any halfway-brightly lit area, the AF was perfect, every time.

    Overall, the camera shot at a faster rate compared to my Contax. 1.5 fps seemed like a real number. With the handling and speed, I have to think fashion shooters would love this camera.

    UNLESS, you shoot tethered. Shooting tethered was another matter--it was very slow. Images took a long time to load and display on the screen. It would be useable for product shots and deliberate, careful shooting, but not for a fast-moving shoot. Also, the camera buffer filled up and the shooting slowed WAY down after not very many shots, while the P40+ just kept going, and the Capture One tethering was almost instant in its display. If you tether a lot, this is definitely NOT the camera for you (at least not until this is improved).

    COMPARED TO OTHER CAMERAS

    When I say the quality was "superior" I mean in an abstract sense of what is available today. It is not necessarily "superior" in a truly noticeable way to the ethereal competion. I have some test shots from a p45+ back on my Contax and the quality is pretty much as good. By the way, the Leica does NOT do long exposures (2 minutes max) just so you landscapers/night shooters know. The p45+ is still the only game in town for that. Also, the S2 quality was on a par with the p40+ that was also tested, with may be a slight edge due to lens performance, but not a decisive, game-changing difference. The P40+ had the advantage of not slowing down during shooting and great tethering. The p65+ is still the king, visibly superior resolution. I am not going to belabor the details as anyone seriously interested will do like I did and shoot their own test.

    WHY THE CHOICE IS DIFFICULT

    If I did not already have a medium format set-up, the Leica would be at the top of my list with one serious "but." The image quality + handling "package" is just the best I have ever seen even with all the niggles and complaints I (and MR) have noted. The "shootability" if this camera is just amazing. HOWEVER, the Leica is still not a complete system by far. By next year, you will have only (35mm equivalents) a 28mm wide, a 56 mm normal, a 100mm macro that ONLY goes 1/2 and not full life size, and a 150mm portrait lens. There are no true wides like a 24 or 21mm equivalent, no moderate wides like a 35mm equivalent and no long teles, or zooms. The lens line-up is useless for architecture, and landscape, for that matter. The Leica reps said more lenses are planned, including a wide zoom, long tele, and, best of all, a 18mm equivalent t/s lens but they were VERY vague about when they would come. It might be more than two years before you have a truly capable landscape/architecture system.

    The real no-brainer is for people who already have a medium format system, there is just no reason to change over. The image quality improvement will not be serious (if you are in the 40 mp range already). You do NOT get the ability to use technical or view cameras like you can with a digital back. The new phase one camera, especially, had autofocus that was almost as fast as the Leica if AF is important to you. Also, Schneider lenses are coming for that system. Similarly, I have no urgent inclination to trade my Contax Zeiss lenses for the Leicas. I can't imagine that the weight savings and ergonomics would be a decisive factor, when you consider . . . . .

    Now, I WILL discuss cost. It is much cheaper to add a Phase back to your system, whatever you have, and you get the same level of image quality, a complete lens system, fast tethering that is truly useful, technical camera use for architecture, panoramic stitching, and the digital view camera lenses that are still the best wide angles in existence, etc. There is just no comparison.

    I will continue saving for my p45+. I can spend just(?!?!) $15K on the back, and have a complete system of, basically, equal quality to the Leica with tech camera support and long exposures added in as a bonus.

    The thought of selling all of my Contax stuff (a body and complete lens 9 lens system from 21mm to 300mm equivalent) AND THEN ADDING $10k JUST TO GET A BODY AND ONE LENS, and then spending $15 K for three more lenses, and then waiting years for more lenses, and then spending more than $25K on the new lenses, JUST TO GET TO WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW, is absurd in the extreme.

    Fine tools add to the pleasure of photography and I am suceptible to desiring the best tools as much as anyone. Photographic vision, however, is in the lenses and even more in your personal techniques when all is said and done.

    For me, the vision comes first, and, yes, cost does come into play. I loved shooting the S2, but . . .

    Actually, for me, the choice to go with a digital back is easy after all.

    Guy

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Got a great name for sure. Guy nice review and some great thoughts coming across thanks for posting this. I will add this to our review or you can copy and paste if you want to it when we get it up in our new special section. Like to have this data in it as well. Great stuff and thanks.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Thanks, Guy (there are very few of us with this name!!)

    Please post it to the review as my techno-savvy is limited (I am new to these forums).

    Glad you thought I had something valuable to contribute.

    It was a great opportunity to use this camera.

    Guy

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    There are plenty of Guys where I come from! Guy in Hebrew means Gorge (as in narrow Valley). First mentioned in the Bible as the gorge surrounding Jerusalem on the west and south sides.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Really it's pretty rare in the US . Interesting Yair thanks for the tidbit
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    If it meant gorge, as in food, then it would surely apply to me!

    Learn something every day, Thanks!

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Same here. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Nicely done.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Nice review, and it is nice to have most of my initial impressions (from reading only) and hopes confirmed.

    It also pains me to hear the tethering problems confirmed, both on Leica's and on my own (unrealistic) behalf. I really hope that the gap between today and when the camera goes out the door Leica can at least double the size of the buffer (or halve the image size), and get the tethering up to near-USB-theoretical-max speeds, which should be close enough to FW not to be a factor.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Ditto on the big thanks to the folks at CI, last night was a very nice event.

    I agree, the image quality of the S2 is stunning. But that's about where it ended for me. Ergonomically, the camera just did not fit my hands. I picked it up, and I really thought it might slip through my hand. The grip narrows from bottom to top, and there's no little bump at the top to catch on your thumb or forefinger like the Phase One or Hasselblad. That really creeped me out. I think you're right in your assessment that it would not be the ideal choice for landscape work, which is what I'm interested in. I'm sort of having a hard time understanding who exactly this camera is for, when you factor in the limited lens selection, the tethering "issues", and the price compared to other offerings.

    On the upside, your Zacuto Z-Finder was a very nifty tool that I hope will find its way into my stocking this Christmas. And they had a Cube there. I am fairly certain that within 60 days, my assimilation will be complete.

    The folks at CI were very quick to understand what kind of goodies would turn my crank (P45+ back & Cambo WRS). I look forward to investigating that avenue further.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by tokengirl View Post
    Ditto on the big thanks to the folks at CI, last night was a very nice event.

    I agree, the image quality of the S2 is stunning. But that's about where it ended for me. Ergonomically, the camera just did not fit my hands. I picked it up, and I really thought it might slip through my hand. The grip narrows from bottom to top, and there's no little bump at the top to catch on your thumb or forefinger like the Phase One or Hasselblad. That really creeped me out. I think you're right in your assessment that it would not be the ideal choice for landscape work, which is what I'm interested in. I'm sort of having a hard time understanding who exactly this camera is for, when you factor in the limited lens selection, the tethering "issues", and the price compared to other offerings.

    On the upside, your Zacuto Z-Finder was a very nifty tool that I hope will find its way into my stocking this Christmas. And they had a Cube there. I am fairly certain that within 60 days, my assimilation will be complete.

    The folks at CI were very quick to understand what kind of goodies would turn my crank (P45+ back & Cambo WRS). I look forward to investigating that avenue further.

    MUST HAVE CUBE!

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Welcome aboard tokengirl!

    Resistance is futile you will be assimilated. Also good choice on the P45+ and WRS but then that’s just me thinking out loud.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Sorry, but if you are seeing things at 800% that you could not see at smaller scales, something is very wrong.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    GuyH,
    Thanks for posting your impressions of the Leica S2 which were very well written (and correspond with my own observations). With due respect, I can't agree with your statement that "... for people who already have a medium format system, there is just no reason to change over". My own (albeit, limited) needs for MF system do not include a tech camera nor do I often shoot tethered. The form factor, weather-sealing and overall ease of use are major considerations for me and, I suspect, for the market that Leica has targeted for the S2. Lately I've been traveling quite a lot (for non-photography business reasons) and before every trip I tell myself I'm going to bring my Sinar kit and a tripod and take some really special photos. When it comes time to pack my gear and head for the airport I look at my MF kit and then grab my DMR and a couple of lenses and head out the door. Now, if I had the S2 and a couple of lenses... I'd be getting those special shots

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Thanks for the review Guy it is very nice that people take the trouble to write this stuff up.

    Leaving aside some pretty basic mistakes like the tethering speed issue and proprietary cables - my main issue remains - do I really need to be locked into a lens design whose image circle limits chip size development to a significantly smaller size than other makers? If so do i really want to wait for vapourware trickle of new lenses over the next 1/2/5 years - I think not.

    Too may smarty pants clever lock em in tricks for my liking - shame, because the ergonomic design of the body is very appealing. However i am sure SoNikCanon will soon enough match Leicas megapixel count and IQ and ergonomics - for 1/3rd the price.

    I would love to be convinced otherwise - all that would be required as a tilt shift/ a wide angle, a telephoto, a larger image circle from all the lenses, a non prop cable, tethering that worked as well as existing players, an LCD that was better than existing players, software that wasnt generic, - and a Luigi leather case! -

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Peter, easy for you to say... you have a tractor to haul your gear around...and enough gear to need one

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    David,

    If I need to travel light, my Contax with the 45-90, 140, and 210 cover far more than the Leica does for the foreseeable future. To really lighten up, take the 45, 80 (f2, faster than the Leica), 120 Makro and 210. It is not much more bulky than the Leica at all and the Contax ergonomics and simplicity are pretty legendary in their own right.

    I will tell you straight that the Leica 70 is bulkier than the Contax 80, and the Leica 180 as bulky as the Contax 210. The lenses are large and heavy. You are not saving much on weight or size with the lenses--it is the body where the savings are most. The ergonomics better? yes; worth $45K? to make a system change? no way.

    If the only thing you have is a tech camera with no digital back, and the S-2 would be your first MF system, and you have the funds, I say go for it!

    If you have a high-level (33-40 mp) back already (phase/hassy/leaf for example), get the phase/hassy/leaf camera and assorted lenses for much less, and take a trip, literally all the way around the world, for what you save. THAT will build your portfolio and increase your vision!

    weather sealing is nice, but I have shot my Contax in fog, light rain, falling/blowing snow, salt spray, desert sand, temps down to -30F (yes, and 30 minute exposures at that low to boot) and up to 112 F. It has survived. It has never been an "indoor" camera in 13 years. I bet the other systems can do similarly well with proper caution and care. If the camera might genuinely get dunked, rafting for example, I would never take anything so expensive no matter what the weather sealing promises. Use a Canon for that and lose $2,500 worst comes to worst!

    If I'm taking a trip where photography is secondary (like a business trip), I just take the 5DII and two zeiss zooms that I use on it. I have not been disappointed.

    I genuinely loved the Leica, as you saw. But, really, to forego an around-the-world photo expedition to pay for a system change? Just can't be.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Peter, easy for you to say... you have a tractor to haul your gear around...and enough gear to need one
    David,

    My air travel travel kit is usually an M8 ( to be replaced by an M9 when they start actually shipping!) 4 lenses. if I want to travel 'heavy' I add my Alpa and 2 lenses with a digi back - All fits into my carry on overnight bag with room for some car mags a laptop, book, shaver and toothbrush ..

    http://www.tusting.co.uk/lev4_2_17_2...nd_Leather.asp

    these are great bags and they last forever..oh and room left over for my lil black book of contacts...

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Guy, I share your love for the Contax and frequently swap it out with the Hy6 on my Sinar back and I love the 45-90 zoom and 120 Makro as well (not as fond of the 210 as some others are). If I'm in the studio I'm fine with that kit but I can't help feeling that the S2 is something I'm much more likely to grab and take with me on my travels. Can't argue with Peter's choice of the Leica M for that purpose... clearly a more portable solution for what I'm describing but I'm just not a rangefinder guy (actually sold my M8 and kept the DMR for that reason).

    Peter, I envy you that Alpa kit but given the choice would probably opt for the little black book As a once (expensively) divorced guy who's remarried I think I'll stick with the Contax and skip the contacts

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Mitchell View Post
    Sorry, but if you are seeing things at 800% that you could not see at smaller scales, something is very wrong.
    I never understand the need/ purpose to look at files at more than 100%

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I never understand the need/ purpose to look at files at more than 100%
    I would say there isn't one ^^

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I never understand the need/ purpose to look at files at more than 100%
    The obvious reason is so that you can draw conclusions to justify whatever decision you were pre-disposed to make in the first place. I hope you're not suggesting we should be limiting ourselves to what might be visible in the real world. The more pertinent question, I think, is why limit yourself to 800% On a more serious note, there hasn't been much discussion of the Leaf offerings lately (or perhaps I missed it). I loved my Leaf Aptus 75S and still think it's one of the finest MFDB's out there. I for one would appreciate an update as to what Leaf has been up to lately and what they have planned for the future.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Actually Yair I would love for you to start a thread on leaf's new offerings. I know sorry I just put you on the spot. But I would certainly love to know more on them. More for just keeping me aware of what is available. Sometimes I feel i speak too much of Phase and really that is I lack the full depth of knowledge on Leaf and Hassy . As they say it's a little foreign to me. Maybe it would help our members know what is out there better.
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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I never understand the need/ purpose to look at files at more than 100%
    While I agree with your comment in principle, in actual use going to 200% can help you better evaluate and refine global capture or output sharpening settings in raw or post. Going higher still definitely makes it an easier task to edit certain things in CS. But yes, there's no aesthetic to gain by doing so...
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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    While I agree with your comment in principle, in actual use going to 200% can help you better evaluate and refine global capture or output sharpening settings in raw or post. Going higher still definitely makes it an easier task to edit certain things in CS. But yes, there's no aesthetic to gain by doing so...
    It depends on how far away from the screen you are standing.
    I need 200% without my cheaters because the screen is for dang far away.
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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I never understand the need/ purpose to look at files at more than 100%
    great for spor removal.
    p

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    I only go past 100 % to airbrush myself.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    yes 200% can help. Especially
    if software goes to 200% by an algorithm not just x2, then you actually get a benefit esp as Guy and Bob say for 'finishing".
    Remember the 100% is already interpolated in Bayer matrix, so only 50% view is 'as taken'

    Victor

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Remember the 100% is already interpolated in Bayer matrix, so only 50% view is 'as taken'
    what?

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Regarding color information, that's about right. But luminance information comes from every photosite.

    Enlargements beyond 100% can make artifacts (or the lack of) more obvious, just like a large print exhibits file quality better.

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Remember the 100% is already interpolated in Bayer matrix, so only 50% view is 'as taken'
    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    what?
    I suspect Victor is referring to Nyquist sampling, which is generally accepted as a 50% fold-back at frequencies higher than Nyquist. But the fold-back is across the Nyquist limit itself, so the actual net sampling error is variable depending on output frequency, not fixed at 50%. Bayer color is indeed interpolated down to individual RGB values from an RGBG data matrix.

    Also, there is the other factor of onscreen viewing for print: I have found that viewing at "Print Size" (with CS calibrated to be exact print size for the dot pitch of my monitor) is not nearly as accurate a representation for final print detail as viewing the final print version at 50%; for whatever reason, viewing at 50% seems to generate a more realistic representation of final print detail.

    My .02,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I have found that viewing at "Print Size" (with CS calibrated to be exact print size for the dot pitch of my monitor) is not nearly as accurate a representation for final print detail as viewing the final print version at 50%; for whatever reason, viewing at 50% seems to generate a more realistic representation of final print detail.
    I agree. I am viewing at 50% for printing purposes as well. However 1 Pixel is 1 Pixel and independent of the print resolution that is 100%...?

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I suspect Victor is referring to Nyquist sampling, which is generally accepted as a 50% fold-back at frequencies higher than Nyquist. But the fold-back is across the Nyquist limit itself, so the actual net sampling error is variable depending on output frequency, not fixed at 50%. Bayer color is indeed interpolated down to individual RGB values from an RGBG data matrix.
    My .02,
    Thanks Jack, that really clears things up...

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    both reasons actually.
    sampling artifacts are known, and as Jack said, many will use 50% for final review (I do). Even for BW would theoretically be better.

    Also because the 100% view is really a composite of RGBG square. Although it seems you are getting luminance at each site, what you are really getting red centered, green centered and blue centered light data because there are spectral filters in front of each photo site.
    It is assumed most luminance information is in the green, so people see the luminance (total light) interpelation as closer to the real illuminance than the color information.
    This is borne out when you print-ever notice that you use the blacks and greys 3-5 times the other colors? that is because most scenes are NOT color saturated, are grey (eg IF you have black, liteblk, LtLtblk) then 100 120 140 the 'core 100 of each creates basically a grey background for the incremental color. 100,7,7 is rare indeed. (because of color balance etc, it is almost impossible to get a pure 100,0,0)

    Victor

    PS MTYWTK Huh! or as some say TMI!

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I only go past 100 % to airbrush myself.
    Why would you airbrush yourself? You're not that bad looking.
    Bill

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Nice review, and it is nice to have most of my initial impressions (from reading only) and hopes confirmed.

    It also pains me to hear the tethering problems confirmed, both on Leica's and on my own (unrealistic) behalf. I really hope that the gap between today and when the camera goes out the door Leica can at least double the size of the buffer (or halve the image size), and get the tethering up to near-USB-theoretical-max speeds, which should be close enough to FW not to be a factor.
    Minority report here Carsten: the day I shot the S2 and the P45+ at the same time, the P45+ tethering crashed constantly (sometimes, about 15% of the time in my experience, it does that) and at one point I had to restart Capture One and re-plug the firewire cable for every shot until I gave up. Whereas the S2 tethering just worked.

    However I am with the OP at this moment. If I had no MF kit at all and didn't truly need to use a tech cam I would buy the S2 but as a current Phase owner, much as the kit irritates me, the ergonomic and optical improvements from a switch would be marginal compared to the massive cost of switching.

    Best,

    T

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    Re: My S-2 Demo and Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by tokengirl View Post
    And they had a Cube there. I am fairly certain that within 60 days, my assimilation will be complete.
    Just do it! I thought, when I purchased my Cube, that it was a luxury. In fact it is the single best designed and performing piece of photographic equipment I have ever used... and it feeeeeels soooo niiiiiice.......!

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