T
The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
The Changing MF Landscape: What's a Mother to do?
- Thread starter fotografz
- Start date
Staying away from the debate of the P45+ bettering the Hassy 39, teh basic conclusions were:
1. MF beat the 1Ds2 handily, BUT in some circumstances the 1Ds2 did come closer to the H3 than the reviewer would have thought. However, in most cases, the gap between 135 and MF was greater than the reviewer expected.
2. Two issues handicapping the 1Ds2 (it is after all a 24x36mm sensor with 9um2 photocells) were the AA filter and the fact that was using Canon glass vs (it appears Zeiss and Fujinon on the H2 and H3 respectively. Were simply listed as 'Hasselblad lenses').
3. The Linhof (with the same P45+ as used on the H2) and Rodenstock HR lenses kicked the rest of the test gear to the curb by a such a large margin, the reviewer found it surprising.
The bottom lines (again ignoring Phase1 vs. Hassy back) that I took away and/or were mentioned by the reviewer were:
1. Size of sensor and size of photocells matters (where have we heard that before)
2. AA filters don't do us any favors unless you really need them for your work
3. CMOS vs CCD - the former isn't the end-all be all.
4. Current sensors are lens-limited. The inability of 99.9% of existing lenses to resolve what a good sensor can deliver is one of the biggest handicaps faced and is an issue that mainstream lens makers need to start addressing ricky-tick.
All in all a good read (amongst others in the issue) and worth the $10 paid for the back copy of the mag.
1. MF beat the 1Ds2 handily, BUT in some circumstances the 1Ds2 did come closer to the H3 than the reviewer would have thought. However, in most cases, the gap between 135 and MF was greater than the reviewer expected.
2. Two issues handicapping the 1Ds2 (it is after all a 24x36mm sensor with 9um2 photocells) were the AA filter and the fact that was using Canon glass vs (it appears Zeiss and Fujinon on the H2 and H3 respectively. Were simply listed as 'Hasselblad lenses').
3. The Linhof (with the same P45+ as used on the H2) and Rodenstock HR lenses kicked the rest of the test gear to the curb by a such a large margin, the reviewer found it surprising.
The bottom lines (again ignoring Phase1 vs. Hassy back) that I took away and/or were mentioned by the reviewer were:
1. Size of sensor and size of photocells matters (where have we heard that before)
2. AA filters don't do us any favors unless you really need them for your work
3. CMOS vs CCD - the former isn't the end-all be all.
4. Current sensors are lens-limited. The inability of 99.9% of existing lenses to resolve what a good sensor can deliver is one of the biggest handicaps faced and is an issue that mainstream lens makers need to start addressing ricky-tick.
All in all a good read (amongst others in the issue) and worth the $10 paid for the back copy of the mag.
PeterA
Well-known member
I hev no doubt that teh Canon lenses aren't up to the quality of teh Canon chips..a major reason i didn't upgrade from 1dsmk11 to 111 - first time I hevnt upgraded a 1Ds Canon.
I also wonder if they are trying to compensate for any weaknesses in resolving power of their lenses via camera hardware and software - namely a big fat AA filter..and a LOT of in camera processing - leading to what many describe as the plastic looking files Canon delivers.
Contrast this to a dedicated digi specked LF lens - it is a strange thing a Schneider or a Rodenstock lens isnt it? ...tiny little things in comparison to a typical SLR lens or Zoom..my 24 and 35,, Schneiders ..more like Leica M lenses..but they kick butt in IQ stakes against anything out there..
I also wonder if they are trying to compensate for any weaknesses in resolving power of their lenses via camera hardware and software - namely a big fat AA filter..and a LOT of in camera processing - leading to what many describe as the plastic looking files Canon delivers.
Contrast this to a dedicated digi specked LF lens - it is a strange thing a Schneider or a Rodenstock lens isnt it? ...tiny little things in comparison to a typical SLR lens or Zoom..my 24 and 35,, Schneiders ..more like Leica M lenses..but they kick butt in IQ stakes against anything out there..
T
thsinar
Guest
YES
YES
YES
YES, and I would say it again, like many times before: "garbage in - garbage out"
Thierry
D
DougDolde
Guest
Jim when you stitch using the A75 on the Horseman, do you get color shifts when shift stitching?
Last edited:
JimCollum
Member
only with the 35mm so far.. but they an app that compensates for that shift. i've found that easy to use. I'd imagine it might be a workflow issue if you had hundreds to do at a time.. but if i'm out with the Horseman and Aptus, i'm in the Large Format mode.. where 10 decent shots is a good day
T
thsinar
Guest
it is effectively a workflow issue, when you have hundreds of files to process with white shadings, one by one: it can easily take hours of corrections. Architecture photographers among others do have such issues to deal with.
There is a solution for Sinar files which is called the Brumbaer tools, a set of 2 small applications which do apply the "white shadings" automatically to the right files, as many as you want and in a batch process: it is called the Brumbaer "eMotion DNG Converter" and is a freeware. It saves hours of work. Beside applying white shadings to correct color shifts (due to the lens fall-off or due to shifts/tilts/swings), it does as well and automatically correct the wished amount of lens vignetting separately (if wanted), denoises the files (if wanted), and it does automatically correct the centerfold effect present in some situations.
The quality of those DNGs produced by these Brumbaer converter are praised by all using it.
Best regards,
Thierry
There is a solution for Sinar files which is called the Brumbaer tools, a set of 2 small applications which do apply the "white shadings" automatically to the right files, as many as you want and in a batch process: it is called the Brumbaer "eMotion DNG Converter" and is a freeware. It saves hours of work. Beside applying white shadings to correct color shifts (due to the lens fall-off or due to shifts/tilts/swings), it does as well and automatically correct the wished amount of lens vignetting separately (if wanted), denoises the files (if wanted), and it does automatically correct the centerfold effect present in some situations.
The quality of those DNGs produced by these Brumbaer converter are praised by all using it.
Best regards,
Thierry
JimCollum
Member
D
DougDolde
Guest
Jim, How about the 4 up stitch that Horseman shows that's something like a virtual 70mm x 82mm sensor after stitching ? Is there enough image circle with the 35mm lens to make this work? It seems like you would have an extremely wide angle of view this way, maybe too wide for most compositions, but HUGE resolution.
JimCollum
Member
wide open, the image circle' not that big.. allows you maybe 8-10mm in each direction... stopped down, however, you can go the full shift.. corners are degraded a bit (similar to what you'd find on a typical canon superwide)
i usually shoot 3x3 instead of 4up.. i prefer some overlap , and the back has dentents, so it's a pretty easy process.
Resurrecting this one.
After playing with MF Phase backs in Puerto Rico, I was just blown away by the difference compared to 35 mm (M8 & D3).
I just sold an M8 lens, VF, two Zeiss primes for Nikon, the D300 (which I had been holding for a friend since upgrading to the D3), Nikon grip, and miscellaneous stuff.
This MF stuff is indeed a slippery slope.
I want to use it for some fashion/portrait & product work.
I have been surprised on product shots too many times where the end use is planned to be of a specific size in a magazine and it ends up being a two page spread (which is stretching the D3 and previously the D2x), or when a shot suddenly becomes the cover and therefore an 8ft. banner later.
The DR, color, and detail of the files were all just amazing.
I did struggle at first not really realizing in my head that I needed to stop down 2-3 stops to get the same DOF which I was thinking of from 35mm. Another surprise was that, when handheld, the old 35mm rule of 1/focal length for shutter was not fast enough to prevent motion blur. These things really want good light.
I was thinking of the Mamiya/Phase system, but struggle over the focal plane shutter vs. a leaf shutter. The added vibration of the focal shutter is a disadvantage and so is the low flash sync speed of 1/125.
My mind is also going in the direction of staying away from any of the microlens systems, as I want to be able to do tilt/shift for products. That is another issue in itself as neither Mamiya nor Hassy have T/S lenses for their current bodies. This slope is getting even more slippery if I have to get some sort of "technical" camera to use with the back.
After viewing the files from Puerto Rico, I've decided to just bite the bullet and go for a 39MP back vs. the 22MP. What a difference in detail. Even on a few which had a little camera shake from me, they recovered nicely when I down sized them to the equal of the 22MP back. This means that I get so much more detail when shot correctly, and the ability to still recover if I have a very slight bit of motion.
Sorry to the Sinar guys but after seeing David struggle with his camera all week long, that just dropped out of the equation.
Now the issue is Mamiya or Hassy. The Mamiya/Phase is a more open system, but I want the advantages (for me) of the leaf shutter. The Hassy seems very well integrated, has the leaf shutter, but is a closed system.
What to do?
Yes, I have fallen down this slope with the rest of you guys.
Ray
PS: Still keeping the M8 & D3, I'm just reducing the kits and focusing on what I really use them for vs. having a one camera does all system. The M8 is down to 28 Cron ASPH, 35 Cron ASPH, 50 Lux ASPH, 90 Elmarit. The Nikon D3 is down to 24-70/2.8, 105 VR Macro, 70-200/2.8 VR, and the 1.7 Extender. I think both systems are still very usable in their areas. MF has seduced me for the really great files and all of the strobe work.
After playing with MF Phase backs in Puerto Rico, I was just blown away by the difference compared to 35 mm (M8 & D3).
I just sold an M8 lens, VF, two Zeiss primes for Nikon, the D300 (which I had been holding for a friend since upgrading to the D3), Nikon grip, and miscellaneous stuff.
This MF stuff is indeed a slippery slope.
I want to use it for some fashion/portrait & product work.
I have been surprised on product shots too many times where the end use is planned to be of a specific size in a magazine and it ends up being a two page spread (which is stretching the D3 and previously the D2x), or when a shot suddenly becomes the cover and therefore an 8ft. banner later.
The DR, color, and detail of the files were all just amazing.
I did struggle at first not really realizing in my head that I needed to stop down 2-3 stops to get the same DOF which I was thinking of from 35mm. Another surprise was that, when handheld, the old 35mm rule of 1/focal length for shutter was not fast enough to prevent motion blur. These things really want good light.
I was thinking of the Mamiya/Phase system, but struggle over the focal plane shutter vs. a leaf shutter. The added vibration of the focal shutter is a disadvantage and so is the low flash sync speed of 1/125.
My mind is also going in the direction of staying away from any of the microlens systems, as I want to be able to do tilt/shift for products. That is another issue in itself as neither Mamiya nor Hassy have T/S lenses for their current bodies. This slope is getting even more slippery if I have to get some sort of "technical" camera to use with the back.
After viewing the files from Puerto Rico, I've decided to just bite the bullet and go for a 39MP back vs. the 22MP. What a difference in detail. Even on a few which had a little camera shake from me, they recovered nicely when I down sized them to the equal of the 22MP back. This means that I get so much more detail when shot correctly, and the ability to still recover if I have a very slight bit of motion.
Sorry to the Sinar guys but after seeing David struggle with his camera all week long, that just dropped out of the equation.
Now the issue is Mamiya or Hassy. The Mamiya/Phase is a more open system, but I want the advantages (for me) of the leaf shutter. The Hassy seems very well integrated, has the leaf shutter, but is a closed system.
What to do?
Yes, I have fallen down this slope with the rest of you guys.
Ray
PS: Still keeping the M8 & D3, I'm just reducing the kits and focusing on what I really use them for vs. having a one camera does all system. The M8 is down to 28 Cron ASPH, 35 Cron ASPH, 50 Lux ASPH, 90 Elmarit. The Nikon D3 is down to 24-70/2.8, 105 VR Macro, 70-200/2.8 VR, and the 1.7 Extender. I think both systems are still very usable in their areas. MF has seduced me for the really great files and all of the strobe work.
Last edited:
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
LOL I am just about to wire my money. This is not a slippery slope this is a leap off the cliff. LOL
Ray, you are going through the same thought process I went through. It really IS application sensitive. For most commercial work it was a simple choice for me ... a leaf shutter camera was far more important than a focal plane one, and I needed a higher sync speed for outdoor fill. A hint concerning this is the fact that Hasselblad 500 cameras and all the copies of it; plus Rollei (and now the Hy6); Fuji, and Mamiya RZs are the dominate commercial systems ... and have been for as long as I can recall.
Having owned and used a number of MF digital solutions, I also have formed an opinion concerning closed and open systems. I totally understand the open concept, and in fact Hasselblad offers that open option with the CF back selections using iAdapters that fit just about every MF camera out there ... leaf shutter or focal plane. So, it's not the digital backs that are closed. The notion that the H cameras are closed is the issue (except the H2F). However, for me this was not an issue...
I prefer the fully integrated approach when it come to complex digital capture ... my experience has been that the more mix-and-match the more problems there are ... and I just got sick of it. Having a camera, back and software that are in sync with one another ... where when you upgrade the software version, the back AND camera firmware are automatically upgraded with it is exactly the way I like it. I hope Phase and Mamiya do the same and suspect they will.
I find my system choice to very flexible ... integrated operation and tight sync with a software designed to maximize the system, fast AF and excellent on-camera TTL flash control, A choice of the H/C lenses or any of the CF, CFi or CFE Zeiss glass, use of the 39 meg back on a viewcamera with incomparible digital APO lenses ... does it for me. As usual, to each his or her own.
lance_schad
Workshop Member
Ray,
With the introduction of the new PhaseOne 645 sytem they also announced that there will be leaf shutter design lenses available starting this year. I believe that there will a few models - normal,wide and long. This will make the PhaseOne 645 platform the only MF camera platform is that is not only an open system but has the ability to run both leaf and a focal plane shutter.
But available today is the PhaseOne 645 AFD and Mamiya RZPro IID both using one back. The PhaseOne 645AFD would give you autofocus and portability today (ultimate flexibility with leaf shutter lenses this year), and then the Mamiya RZ ProIID would give you 1/400th flash sync and T/S capability all with one back!
So here is a solution for you today for best of both worlds.
Lance
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration
My Blog
[email protected]
With the introduction of the new PhaseOne 645 sytem they also announced that there will be leaf shutter design lenses available starting this year. I believe that there will a few models - normal,wide and long. This will make the PhaseOne 645 platform the only MF camera platform is that is not only an open system but has the ability to run both leaf and a focal plane shutter.
But available today is the PhaseOne 645 AFD and Mamiya RZPro IID both using one back. The PhaseOne 645AFD would give you autofocus and portability today (ultimate flexibility with leaf shutter lenses this year), and then the Mamiya RZ ProIID would give you 1/400th flash sync and T/S capability all with one back!
So here is a solution for you today for best of both worlds.
Lance
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration
My Blog
[email protected]
lance_schad
Workshop Member
Obviously I did not have my coffee yet!
L
L
robsteve
Subscriber
woodyspedden
New member
Ray
I may be wrong but I thought there was an adapter to use V lenses on the Mamiya. If so you get the advantages of an open system and still get to use the great V lenses although I guess not with using the leaf shutter. Probably works like V lenses on the 203FE where the leaf shutter is locked open and the focal plane shutter of the body does the work.
Woody
lance_schad
Workshop Member
Woody,
Yes you could use the V-series lenses, but I think that Ray wants to use a faster flashsync than what is currently available on the Mamiya/PhaseOne 645 which is 1/125. PhaseOne has committed to releasing a few leaf shutter lenses beginning this year to be used with the PhaseOne 645AFD. It will be the only MF camera system that will have the ability to use both a focal plane shutter and leaf shutter lenses on one camera system.
One recommendation that could cover a few of Rays needs is to use both the 645AFD platform, and when he needs either tilt/shift capabilities or flash sync greater than 1/125 use the PhaseOne back on a Mamiya RZ ProIID system.
This would give him the best of both worlds.
L
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
Capture Integration
My Blog
[email protected]
Lance is right.
I'm really struggling with the focal plane shutter concept, as I want a fast sync speed so that I can use strobes for bright daylight fill.
Relative to tilt/shift, I've pretty much decided to just look for a technical camera and get the whole ball of wax including swing. For some of the firearms photography that I do, it has been impossible to get everything in focus regardless of stopping the apertures as far as possible. Using a tech camera yesterday, one of the shots which I just could not otherwise get everything in focus was possible to do using the tilt & swing options of the tech camera. It was also very nice to be able to fix perspective by moving the back end.
I have decided that I want the 39MP back and leaf shutter capability. The issue is going to come down to one of finance along with ease of total use and workflow. The Phase/Mamiya was nice to use and will have leaf shutter lenses at a later date. I'm going to be using a Hassy now, so that I can really make a good comparison on what works best for me.
I'm not willing to go through any real mix and match systems, as I just want a system that works without the headaches of new technology to market (AKA: the M8 launch), or having to deal with multiple companies and tech supports to resolve issues.
I'll let you guys know more, once the Hassy is in hand.
Best,
Ray
I'm really struggling with the focal plane shutter concept, as I want a fast sync speed so that I can use strobes for bright daylight fill.
Relative to tilt/shift, I've pretty much decided to just look for a technical camera and get the whole ball of wax including swing. For some of the firearms photography that I do, it has been impossible to get everything in focus regardless of stopping the apertures as far as possible. Using a tech camera yesterday, one of the shots which I just could not otherwise get everything in focus was possible to do using the tilt & swing options of the tech camera. It was also very nice to be able to fix perspective by moving the back end.
I have decided that I want the 39MP back and leaf shutter capability. The issue is going to come down to one of finance along with ease of total use and workflow. The Phase/Mamiya was nice to use and will have leaf shutter lenses at a later date. I'm going to be using a Hassy now, so that I can really make a good comparison on what works best for me.
I'm not willing to go through any real mix and match systems, as I just want a system that works without the headaches of new technology to market (AKA: the M8 launch), or having to deal with multiple companies and tech supports to resolve issues.
I'll let you guys know more, once the Hassy is in hand.
Best,
Ray