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Thread: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    I just got this reply to a query I made directly to Hartblei regarding this lens, which appears on their website among their products:

    ---
    Hi,

    Just wanted to let you know that the Super-Rotator lens is no longer in production.

    Regards,
    sales / Hartblei Co
    ---

    I thought I'd share the news with the forum. I was looking for a solution to add T/S to my P1 setup, but it seems that the Hartblei is one less contender in what was already a very empty marketplace.
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    They seem to be concentrating more on DSLR lenses of late. See here. You can order the PhaseOne version I believe...
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    They seem to be concentrating more on DSLR lenses of late. See here. You can order the PhaseOne version I believe...
    Apparently not:
    --
    Available mounts:
    Canon EF
    Nikon F
    Sony/Minolta
    PentaxK
    Leica R
    Contax
    --
    unless I missed it, it seems that 645 mount is out for now.
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Sorry Vieri, I meant to say that PhaseOne offers a version of the Hartblei SuperRotator that is Mamiya 645 mount.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    The MF version has been discontinued for quite a long time now. The original Ukrainian manufacturing stopped and Stefan Steib owns the rights to the name, I believe, but went in the direction of super-rotated Zeiss MF glass offered for 35mm, and now the new camera.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Yup, the Mamiya 645 mount version is a rarity and Phase doesn't supply the version it was planning to offer. Of those rare second hand items that come up, most are dogs with very high sample variation so if you are offered one ALWAYS test it first. There are some (I have one) that do remarkably well and others that are just dreadful.

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    And before anybody else gets excited, I have express first rights on Tim's when he sells it
    Jack
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    I may be putting my Hartblei 45mm t/s super rotator for Mamiya 645AF/Phase 645AF out for sale... still sitting and stewing for a bit.... I may package it up with several 82mm filters and a Cokin Z adapter ring; even have the original owners manual.

    Might wait to have it around for CI in Carmel in February...

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Lots of folklore on Hartblei and the 45mm SR. I got mine from "Anton" direct from Hartblei site, NOT from Kievcamera Atlanta. At the time there were 'Arsenal' factory Hartbleis and some bodies and lenses from CZ Kalinex.
    I was told by Anton that there were some (mine) NOT made at Arsenal, but used East-Ger and Russian, Zeiss glass and specs and were finished by Kalinex or somewhere in CZ or by some guy in Ukraine in his appartment. I actually needed a swap or adjustment (forget why) and sure nuff went to this guy in Kiev. Made the round trip fine and came back well calibrated.
    The lens is pretty good, and somewhere I have a post of the corner sharpness with full shift. VERY good.
    Is it great? no. If you need a workable TS or even just PC or tabletop focus control, will this do it? yup!

    Find a good one though. Reichman and I and a few others seem to have gotten good copies; others are not so happy. Some paid $900, I paid $600. Who knows. Go to the Shutterbug Abend articles if you want the almost whole history.



    Victor

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    it strange that nobody provides an adaptator for hassy lenses and Mam 645 body with shift cababilities !

    looking at the simple ones, it should be possible... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPII.dl...ht_1566wt_1139

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    it strange that nobody provides an adaptator for hassy lenses and Mam 645 body with shift cababilities !

    looking at the simple ones, it should be possible... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPII.dl...ht_1566wt_1139
    What we really need from somebody is an adapter that adapts Mamiya backs to the Hassy Flex body
    Jack
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    Paul David 99
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    I have a Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator Mamiya 645 mount in excellent condition that I was planning to put on eBay after the holidays. I usually use eBay because I don't have the patience to bargain and play games when selling. My ebay feedback is 100% positive. I think $750 (firm) + shipping (US only) is a fair price. I you are interested please send me a PM. I'm in San Jose, CA

    Paul
    www.pauldavidimages.com

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul David 99 View Post
    I have a Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator Mamiya 645 mount in excellent condition that I was planning to put on eBay after the holidays. I usually use eBay because I don't have the patience to bargain and play games when selling. My ebay feedback is 100% positive. I think $750 (firm) + shipping (US only) is a fair price. I you are interested please send me a PM. I'm in San Jose, CA

    Paul
    www.pauldavidimages.com
    PM sent -- and I'm just up the road in Los Altos!
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    Paul David 99
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Clarification on the Hartblei I have. Jack Flesher came by to look at it, and apparently it's the model before the "Super" rotator. It shifts in all directions, but only tilts on the vertical axis. Since that's the only way I would use it unless doing architecture, I wasn't aware of it. On the good side, Jack Flesher ran a few tests and said it is one of the best copies optically he's seen.
    Paul

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    I'll confirm what Paul just said for anybody considering it. It is technically called the Hartblei TS-PC lens, the immediate predecessor to the Super Rotator. The difference is the tilt axis is fixed and does not rotate, but the shift axis rotates through 360 degrees.

    The next point is I have direct experience with 5 or 6 of these lenses, and this copy is by far the best one I've seen, being usably sharp the corners at a 8-9mm shift on my P65+ back --- had it been a Super Rotator, I would have bought it.
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul David 99 View Post
    I have a Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator Mamiya 645 mount in excellent condition that I was planning to put on eBay after the holidays. I usually use eBay because I don't have the patience to bargain and play games when selling. My ebay feedback is 100% positive. I think $750 (firm) + shipping (US only) is a fair price. I you are interested please send me a PM. I'm in San Jose, CA

    Paul
    www.pauldavidimages.com
    Paul is an upstanding guy!

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I'll confirm what Paul just said for anybody considering it. It is technically called the Hartblei TS-PC lens, the immediate predecessor to the Super Rotator. The difference is the tilt axis is fixed and does not rotate, but the shift axis rotates through 360 degrees.

    The next point is I have direct experience with 5 or 6 of these lenses, and this copy is by far the best one I've seen, being usably sharp the corners at a 8-9mm shift on my P65+ back --- had it been a Super Rotator, I would have bought it.
    If you are using the TS-PC lens only for the shallow dof effect you can position the tilt axis in one desired direction and fasten the screw on the mamiya adapter. I am using one like that for a zillion years already. Having a small screwdriver at hand to redirect the lens in case of strong backlight.... and it works fine. For real architectural use, there are better solutions than a hartblei.

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    Rafa
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Paul,
    I'm in San Jose too. I'd like to take a look at your lens.
    PM sent
    Rafa

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Aren't the Super Rotators all with adapters? I think mine has an adapter. If so, that might mean that there is no need to search for a Mamiya-mount Super Rotator, specifically, as long as the adapters are easy to get.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Aren't the Super Rotators all with adapters? I think mine has an adapter. If so, that might mean that there is no need to search for a Mamiya-mount Super Rotator, specifically, as long as the adapters are easy to get.
    I am pretty sure they made them a few ways -- Mamiya mount, Hassy V mount, Contax mount and Pentacon. IIRC, it's the Pentacon mount they also could adapt to other cameras.
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    I had one years ago and had to order it with a Mamiya mount, so I’d say they are/were camera specific. Based on the prices of these I now wish I kept it and put it into a glass box with a sign saying here’s my IRA! It did however go to a good home.

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    The Hartblei 45mm t/s Super Rotator was indeed made in several medium format camera specific mounts, with the Pentacon being able to use an adapter.

    Very neat design. Mine is the Mamiya mount which I like, but I'll probably put it up for sale after the 2d Annual Pigs in a Blanket.... Gotta pay for other recent acquisitions!

    ken

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Ken, I still have first dibs on yours! (Assuming it is a true Super Rotator.)
    Jack
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Ken, I still have first dibs on yours! (Assuming it is a true Super Rotator.)
    LOL---yes, Jack---you have first dibs! And yes, it is a true Hartblei 45mm T/S Super Rotator. I even have the original owner's manual!

    You know, there probably is a lot of truth in Don's suggestion--- between the four of us (Jack, Guy, Don, Ken) we could have one helluva community photography equipment locker!

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    LOL---yes, Jack---you have first dibs! And yes, it is a true Hartblei 45mm T/S Super Rotator. I even have the original owner's manual!

    You know, there probably is a lot of truth in Don's suggestion--- between the four of us (Jack, Guy, Don, Ken) we could have one helluva community photography equipment locker!
    Cool! And no kidding. I just need to get you, Guy and Don to move to Los Altos!
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Cool! And no kidding. I just need to get you, Guy and Don to move to Los Altos!
    Carmel might be safer. Your wife would kick us all out in short order!

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Cool! And no kidding. I just need to get you, Guy and Don to move to Los Altos!
    Sorry guys even being actually born in CA (Hemet) I have no desire to return other than for a visit; I'd have to sell half of what I have in my big safe as they'd be against the law in CA. Just isn't going to happen. Besides, when's the last time you heard of an earth quake in AZ? Guy & I are in the right area you two need to move!

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Well, in case anyone is looking for a Contax-mount Super Rotator, I just listed mine in the B&S.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Well, in case anyone is looking for a Contax-mount Super Rotator, I just listed mine in the B&S.
    Hello.
    All Hartblei products are available now on www.hartblei.kiev.ua

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    Member nightfire's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by hartblei View Post
    Hello.
    All Hartblei products are available now on www.hartblei.kiev.ua
    Has anyone reviewed the "new" $2600 version yet?

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    It is my understanding, and I could be wrong, that the name hartblei and the right to the original super-rotator design, has been batted back and forth between different claimants and countries in the last few years. The Much touted and then never delivered Phase version was a rebadged hartblei and the version I had to try was terrible - I think that's why Phase cancelled the model, they couldn't get it made reliably. So I have no idea if the product advertised by the poster 'hartblei' above is from the same OEM as the Phase version but if it is I would insist on very careful testing of the particular lens I was expected to pay for before I paid for it!

    I have a good older copy as I posted several months ago further up this thread: I have no idea where or when it was made but it has the full range of movements and it's pretty cool. There is a bit of a chance that for various reasons I might sell it in a month or two, in which case I will put it on the FS/WTB forum here.

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    I had the original in Pentacon 6 mount that I used with a Mamiya 645 AFD years ago. On film it was ok but not great but it always was a crap shoot as to how good the lens would be.

    I was very tempted by the Zeiss optics versions that are available from the "other" Hartblei but that was for my D3x. If there had been medium format versions available I'd definitely have bought the set for MF digital use.

    The whole Hartblei thing seems like a mess since there would appear to be one Hartblei selling the newer quality glass and MF digital body and then there's the Ukrainian outfit who seem to swap and change dealers & representatives on a random basis. Just be careful ...
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I had the original in Pentacon 6 mount that I used with a Mamiya 645 AFD years ago. On film it was ok but not great but it always was a crap shoot as to how good the lens would be.

    I was very tempted by the Zeiss optics versions that are available from the "other" Hartblei but that was for my D3x. If there had been medium format versions available I'd definitely have bought the set for MF digital use.

    The whole Hartblei thing seems like a mess since there would appear to be one Hartblei selling the newer quality glass and MF digital body and then there's the Ukrainian outfit who seem to swap and change dealers & representatives on a random basis. Just be careful ...
    Does anyone know if the "Hartblei" who are now selling the Medium format 45 Super-Rotator with the rear mount for Pentax 645...is the one that incorporates Zeiss glass and I believe is reported to be of a new optical design (from what I can tell)? Has anyone tried out this latest version on their medium format cameras? I too am finding the situation a bit confusing. I did try out an older design years ago, but was disappointed with the performance of the sample I had on hand. Thanks for any info.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Stefan Steib has Hartblei.de who appear to be the ones with the Hartblei cam and Zeiss optics. Not sure about the other folks with the agricultural lenses (nothing wrong with lenses built to survive a nuclear blast btw - my super rotator was absolutely built like a tank and designed to last forever!!)
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 17th June 2011 at 16:11.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Stefan Steib has Hartblei.de who appear to be theones with the Hartblei cam and Zeiss optics. Not sure about the other folks with the agricultural lenses (nothing wrong with lenses built to survive a nuclear blast btw - my super rotator was absolutely built like a tank and designed to last forever!!)


    Thanks Graham! I just took a brief look at their website but as others pointed out (I think)..their Zeiss optic Super-Rotator lenses aren't available for medium format.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    there seem to be three Hartblei

    hartblei.kiev.ua
    hartblei.com
    hartblei.de

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    there seem to be three Hartblei

    hartblei.kiev.ua
    hartblei.com
    hartblei.de
    Reminds me of the old televison program called "What's My Line"...for those that remember! For those that don't...it's where three contestants all come forward with all claiming to be the "real" person being showcased. Only after some semi intensive questioning...it's then determined who the imposters are and who isn't.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 16th June 2011 at 20:55.

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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    there seem to be three Hartblei

    hartblei.kiev.ua
    hartblei.com
    hartblei.de
    Nothing like a nice clear distribution channel and brand ownership eh? Welcome to the wild, err, east.

    hartblei.de do seem to have some very nice gear, but alas that glass isn't MF.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  39. #39
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Hello from Munich

    Just to shed some light on this unfortunate mixup (I know - this is why we are rebranding the professional part "hartblei.de" to HCam, I hope we will have this done soon) you can already reach hartblei.de on hcam.de also.

    hartblei.kiev.ua is the original website of Hartblei Kiev, run by my Ukrainian business partner Sergeji Naumenko and his son Vitalyi (privjet Vitalyi), they build the superrotators, they always have built it and they will build it. The 45mm TS is a very good lens no matter what some tell about it and can be bought exclusively new as some other lenses with russian glass on their website plus you can reach them on Ebay :
    http://shop.ebay.de/tilt-shift/m.htm...id=p4340.l2562 or here
    http://stores.ebay.de/vk-no-store/Ca...=p4634.c0.m322
    Hartblei Kiev also builds the Zeiss versions, but these are sold exclusively through my website :

    hartblei.de now to be hcam.de. We also build the HCam versions (in Italy) and now the HCam Mamiya RB/RZ-645 adapter (in Hamburg).

    now hartblei.com is the former website of hartblei, but unfortunately hold hostage by a former business partner Mr. Pissarenko, hosted in Slowakia and not having any Hartblei products at all. What they try to sell is scam, old Kiev bodies, arsenal stuff and cheap adapters, stay away ! same applies to the so called Hartblei Macro-Tilt and Hartblei shift adapters: they are marketed by some people around ARAX and former Hartblei dealer Michael Fourman , now to be found on several addresses on ebay. Hartblei has stopped any business with them, but they use the name anyway, but unfortunately it gets even more complicated, there are some dealers on ebay who also try to sell the lenses, all this makes the situation a real mess.

    Hcam will sell the Hartblei Zeiss versions, but the HCam site, brand and the company will be separate from this chaos, this needs to be made very clear.
    I always write in my own name and as such show exactly who is behind our products. anybody can email me, call me, skype me or get in contact by linkedin or facebook. I think this is essential.

    Hcam does German/EU standards guarantees, support and consulting for
    large companies setups, pro photographers and museums and libraries.
    I have also specialised in digitalisation of cultural heritage/books and paintings, I am also an Apple certified trainer for Aperture and working with most of the largest brands in the business.

    Hope this helps

    Stefan Steib - HCam.de
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 17th June 2011 at 14:08.

  40. #40
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Dear Stefan

    Thank you for the clarification. Wasn't there an Anton involved in Hartblei some years ago?

    regards
    Victor

  41. #41
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Thanks for clearing things up Stefan.

    Just a thought but if there were MF versions of those Zeiss optics in Mamiya & Hassy mount I'm sure that you'd have a queue of folks lined up for them, including me.

    Btw, do all the Zeiss T/S lenses provide full coverage on the HCAM with say a 33x44mm back? Hmm ... That makes me think bad expensive thoughts ...
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  42. #42
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Graham
    yes the 4/40mmIF and the 2,8/80mm do work fully with all backs-all sizes even with some movements ! I have posted a link here some time ago with a pic shot with our 80mm on the HCam with an Leaf Aptus II 12 R with 80Mpix and this is tack sharp.

    http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Har...lt_LeafA12.jpg

    The 4/120mm Makro does work for the smaller chips too
    (up to 45x45mm)on infinity but has barrel vignetting if you go closeup (the lens moves away from the 35mm mount and causes vignetting), so it is a 35mm lens mostly .
    This is also a reason why I was looking into the RB/RZ lenses adapter and additionally we have now done the HCam-B1v which uses large format lenses

    @ Victor
    I think so- this is on Hartblei.com, but I don´t know him.

    Regards

    Stefan

  43. #43
    Member nightfire's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Just a thought but if there were MF versions of those Zeiss optics in Mamiya & Hassy mount I'm sure that you'd have a queue of folks lined up for them, including me.
    I'd already line up for the current "new" version, if only I could buy it from Germany (within the EU) instead of the Ukraine. There would be less issues with customs/import taxes, cross-border payment and returns/maintenance for me, and I guess for other EU peasants as well...

  44. #44
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Hartblei 45 Super-Rotator in Mamiya 645 mount: bad news

    "if there were MF versions of those Zeiss optics in Mamiya & Hassy mount I'm sure that you'd have a queue of folks lined up for them, including me"

    I know that this is a market, but there is something else which I will not keep as a secret: the resources for the Zeiss MF lenses are limited, we do not know if Zeiss can supply us for longer than 1 maybe max 2 years. So if anybody who wants a Zeiss superrotator thinks too long about it, we may have run out of stock.

    This is the reason why we are looking into making Pro grade TS adapters now, the Mamiya RB/RZ -645 adapter is a starting point, we will also do Hasselblad V -> 35mm versions (it´s even easier as the flange Focal distance is longer).

    Further we plan to make rebuild offers for existing Hasselblad V lens owners of 40mm IF CFE/CFI, 2,8/80mm Planar CF/CFI/CB/CFE and 4/120mm Makro CF/CFI/CB/CFE in the future, especially for our Cine Hfocus and TS combos as we have develloped recently.

    http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Neu...B1v-und-HFocus

    The rebuilds will be handled through Germany - HCam.de/Hartblei.de.
    I´ll announce it officially with a Pressrelease as soon as we start the service.

    Greetings from Munich
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 19th June 2011 at 04:25. Reason: image added

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