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Thread: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    I thought this might be useful for some people. As I get to know the camera better I'll post a selection of shots that show some or other aspect of the system's performance and behaviour. So the shots aren't supposed to impress either artistically or technically, but merely to show, for example, what different ISO performance is like or whether the AF is accurate or what the DOF is like with various lenses at various apertures etc.

    All the seaside shots with today's date were taken using a Gitzo 3 series CF tripod with Arca cube head, some with a 2 second self timer (which puts the mirror up before the countdown) and some without. In other words, they can't be used to tell you how hand-holdable the camera is. Over the next days I will post some that try to test that aspect.

    All these were developed in LR3 and mostly with a light-touch approach to development. Some are slightly cropped. If anyone has individual questions about that please ask.

    The two of the wharfside buildings are one of my standard test shots. I shot them on both the 70 and 180mm lenses at ISO Pull 80 so as to get the slowest shutter speeds possible in order to test the combination of camera and tripod setup to see if there are any shutter speeds that induce a shake. So far I can't say that there are, but it was pretty gusty and to do this test really accurately needs a very calm day. In any event I learned from this test that both lenses seem to hit their sweet spots for resolution at F8.

    Otherwise, I have no real comments so far other than to say that the system is a real pleasure to use. Tomorrow I will try it with a monopod to see how I get on!

    The gallery is at the address below and the images are all full size JPEG, many at 100% though some are saved at lower quality so as the meet Zenfolio file size limits of 24 MB. Right-clicking on an image will allow you to download the full-sized version.

    Zenfolio | Tim Ashley | S2 Samples

    Best

    Tim






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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    the system is a real pleasure to use.
    sounds nice - congratulations!
    May I ask why you switched from Phase to Leica? Did you expect any improvements IQ wise or was it a decession with regard to the handling of the camera?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    sounds nice - congratulations!
    May I ask why you switched from Phase to Leica? Did you expect any improvements IQ wise or was it a decession with regard to the handling of the camera?
    It's partly a handling thing. The IQ is pretty much a wash, possibly better higher ISO on the S2 than the P45+ but that's it. Additionally I like the weather sealing though I never had an issue with the Phase kit on that front.

    A big attraction for me is the 2:3 rather than 3:4 format. I generally prefer 2:3 and often end up cropping my Phase files that way, so on the S2 I sort of get the pixels more where I want them, effectively I'd need a Phase 42.5mp back to get the same file (I think!)

    More attractive still is that I can pack a tiny charger, a body and say three lenses and, assuming (or hoping rather) that the expected 24mm lens is good and sharp to the corners, I can cover all the bases that I need to pack a lot more Phase stuff to deal with. The main Phase charger is pretty large (though it does charge two batteries) but you also need two small or one large NiCad charger for the body's batteries, plus I am not crazy about the 28D on the P45+ so I carry a tech cam with a Schneider lens, blah blah.

    Then there's that the SF58 works well on both the S2 and the M9 (which I use a lot) so there's another trip packing advantage. I just want fewer 'bits' in my life!

    However, it is NOT an obvious wash in favour of the S2 at all... there are a zillion factors to bottom out and though first signs are good, I still have the Phase gear and will not be making decisions about which to keep for a while yet.

    Best

    Tim

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Thanks for this first S2 pictures... Can you say how big is the difference in image quality S2 vs M9?

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    it is NOT an obvious wash in favour of the S2 at all... there are a zillion factors to bottom out and though first signs are good, I still have the Phase gear and will not be making decisions about which to keep for a while yet.
    Makes sense, thank you!

    I've looked at your samples (thanks a lot for sharing!) and noticed some things you might keep an eye on.
    But probably you've already seen it...

    First moire (image S2090042 / promenade+boats). I am honestly still amazed Leica stated they couldn't find any moire.
    This is a kind of moire (or color artifact) that is typical for microlenses sensors.
    Most obvious in the bars of the balconies but also e.g. in the cords of the ceramic artwork.
    I'd consider this an serious issue (for landscape/architecture) as it is not that easy to correct. It's too bold to be corrected with a moire tool - you have to correct it by hand in Photoshop.

    Secondly noise ("grain") even at base ISO in the sky (image S2090031 / beach)
    This might be just an post processing issue as it is acually caused by posterization in the red chanel.
    I know this from my small DSLR, but it is something very, very rare with files from my P45 and P21+ (only occurs after heavy post work).

    Finally even at f8 with the 70mm there is sharpness falloff at the edges. It's maybe not a problem, I just don't see Leicas promises fulfilled.
    I'm sure the pubished MTF charts are 100% correct. But I doubt someone really tested the lenses with this microlenses sensor when Leica made their PR claims about the superiority of the lenses ("sharp to the edges even wide open...") - maybe they are, but obviously not in conjunction with this sensor.

    I am anxious to hear about your further testing of handhold shooting... maybe this is the field where the S2 shines.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Makes sense, thank you!

    I've looked at your samples (thanks a lot for sharing!) and noticed some things you might keep an eye on.
    But probably you've already seen it...

    First moire (image S2090042 / promenade+boats). I am honestly still amazed Leica stated they couldn't find any moire.
    This is a kind of moire (or color artifact) that is typical for microlenses sensors.
    Most obvious in the bars of the balconies but also e.g. in the cords of the ceramic artwork.
    I'd consider this an serious issue (for landscape/architecture) as it is not that easy to correct. It's too bold to be corrected with a moire tool - you have to correct it by hand in Photoshop.

    Secondly noise ("grain") even at base ISO in the sky (image S2090031 / beach)
    This might be just an post processing issue as it is acually caused by posterization in the red chanel.
    I know this from my small DSLR, but it is something very, very rare with files from my P45 and P21+ (only occurs after heavy post work).

    Finally even at f8 with the 70mm there is sharpness falloff at the edges. It's maybe not a problem, I just don't see Leicas promises fulfilled.
    I'm sure the pubished MTF charts are 100% correct. But I doubt someone really tested the lenses with this microlenses sensor when Leica made their PR claims about the superiority of the lenses ("sharp to the edges even wide open...") - maybe they are, but obviously not in conjunction with this sensor.

    I am anxious to hear about your further testing of handhold shooting... maybe this is the field where the S2 shines.
    Thomas, you are right about the moire and that is one of the reasons I use this test scene. I have sometimes seen some moire from the P45+ but not this strong. However I always develop P45+ files in C1 and when I open the S2 file you refer to in C1 the moire is far less of a problem. This might be a LR3 Beta issue. I will investigate. There is clearly the potential for an issue here.

    I have plenty of series of test shots with both the Phamiya 80mm and the new leaf shutter 80mm with the P45+ which show less than perfect edges until medium apertures. Only a side by side comparison with the S2 (which I don't have time to do right now) will tell for sure but I think there won't be much in it. It is irritating when Leica says that lenses are perfect wide open - I think they claim that for some M glass where it obviously isn't true. I am not disappointed by the 80mm Summarit but I am not wowed by it either. The 180mm is more impressive, as others have observed. The real test will be the wides. It is worth bearing in mind that a 4/3 aspect ratio fits into a smaller image circle than a 2/3 (I think?) and therefore the Leica corners are more challenged - though of course it is a challenge they set themselves and declare themselves to have won.

    As to the grain in the sky, my fault! look at

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/v7/p3678114.jpg

    for a LR default conversion and see the difference...

    But I would stress, again, that the point of this gallery is NOT to judge IQ. Really, NOT. You just can't, what with JPEG conversion, sRGB colour space, a million choices of RAW treatment, etc etc. The point really was to look more at issues of DOF, camera shake, lens quality...

    HTH

    T

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    I think the 180mm is the better lens Tim out of our testing I was more wowed by it than the 70mm although very good but your only going to squeeze so much out of them . Even the lowly Mamiya 200 2.8 apo manual focus was matching it pretty well. Now also Tim I can tell you right out of the gate the S2 noise levels are much better than the P45+ so for you there is your advantage after ISO 400 on the P45+ it just gives up. I noticed this in several tests I have done on the P30+, P40, P65 and P45 tests the P45+ is in last place over those backs. LR maybe the better choice right now Tim for the s2 although it still does nothing for me. If you do go into C1 obviously the color profile is off but really watch sharpening on the s2 it just does not match up real well in C1 with the noise algorithms . Now suggestion got to pre sharpening 1 than lower the top amount to 130 instead of 200 and it will look more natural. As Jack and I said in our review and will repeat here nothing is really ready for the S2 in terms of raw processing except raw developer but have not tried it yet. Might be worth your time to re read the review again and get a better feel for what we found and make any adjustments needed. DOF obviously smaller sensor than your P45+ so right there you will gain a little in DOF but maybe not much. The bokeh pretty much matched the P40+ and DOF but that is only a 8 percent increase on the P40 in sensor size so looks like it did not mean much . The P45 obviously bigger sensor. As far as wide open performance I saw no real difference at all in the center, out to the edges we really did not test but again who the hell shoots wide open and expects good corners . LOL I find those comments slightly weird myself any MF shooter I know rarely gets to 2.8 anyway and the difference at F4 in bokeh is not worth shooting 2.8 if that was what someone is after in the first place . Obviously if it is low light that maybe a different story. You simple can't compare these to 35mm in those regards , honestly makes little sense to me. I would rather have a clean ISO 800 and use that instead and make sure I am sharp at F4 but that is me.

    In regard to camera shake the S2 has a smoother or at least quieter shutter and my bet maybe squeeze a little extra in shutter speed but honestly the Phase body I hold better in low light because i can get the whole bottom in my left hand better as my support, this will be different for some folks obviously. The S2 has heavier and bulkier lenses and the Phase has a heavier back end with the body and back so it is going to come down to balance and how YOU hold the camera. This will be a personal preference IMHO. Depends how you like the balance.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Tim, thanks for this post. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing more about the S2.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think the 180mm is the better lens Tim out of our testing I was more wowed by it than the 70mm although very good but your only going to squeeze so much out of them . Even the lowly Mamiya 200 2.8 apo manual focus was matching it pretty well. Now also Tim I can tell you right out of the gate the S2 noise levels are much better than the P45+ so for you there is your advantage after ISO 400 on the P45+ it just gives up. I noticed this in several tests I have done on the P30+, P40, P65 and P45 tests the P45+ is in last place over those backs.
    Good to see that what I am finding matches what you guys saw! I think it's helpful for others to hear the same things from multiple sources so a body of opinion builds up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    LR maybe the better choice right now Tim for the s2 although it still does nothing for me. If you do go into C1 obviously the color profile is off but really watch sharpening on the s2 it just does not match up real well in C1 with the noise algorithms . Now suggestion got to pre sharpening 1 than lower the top amount to 130 instead of 200 and it will look more natural. As Jack and I said in our review and will repeat here nothing is really ready for the S2 in terms of raw processing except raw developer but have not tried it yet.
    I tried your recipe this morning and I agree that it works very well. I have so far been using LR3 for S2 files but critical observation suggests that though it has closed the gap from where LR2 is, it is still not quite as good - and its lack of moire treatment is a bore. So for now I'll use one or the other depending on the file: if there's moire, it's C1: if there's specular highlights or the colour is more critical, it's LR3. But I will try David's ICC profile too...



    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Might be worth your time to re read the review again and get a better feel for what we found and make any adjustments needed.
    I re-read it from top to toe last night and discovered many a plum! Thank you again, you two!


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    who the hell shoots wide open and expects good corners . LOL I find those comments slightly weird myself any MF shooter I know rarely gets to 2.8 anyway and the difference at F4 in bokeh is not worth shooting 2.8 if that was what someone is after in the first place . Obviously if it is low light that maybe a different story. You simple can't compare these to 35mm in those regards , honestly makes little sense to me. I would rather have a clean ISO 800 and use that instead and make sure I am sharp at F4 but that is me.
    I agree - unless you want the tip of an eyelash in focus and the eyeball in bokeh-land, there's rarely any point if the light isn't so low as to force you to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    In regard to camera shake the S2 has a smoother or at least quieter shutter and my bet maybe squeeze a little extra in shutter speed but honestly the Phase body I hold better in low light because i can get the whole bottom in my left hand better as my support, this will be different for some folks obviously. The S2 has heavier and bulkier lenses and the Phase has a heavier back end with the body and back so it is going to come down to balance and how YOU hold the camera. This will be a personal preference IMHO. Depends how you like the balance.
    I tend to hold the lens cupped in my left hand, with my left elbow rammed hard into my left side as a support - so the S2 is so far working well for me but I must try a lot more handheld work before making a real judgement.

    Best

    T

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Tim, thanks for this post. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing more about the S2.
    Thanks David - and have no fear, you will hear more!

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    ...
    Thanks Tim.
    You seem to have a sober-minded and balanced view on the S2 (and Leica) and its capabilities. Very good.
    Have fun with the camera!

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Good thread, Tim. Thank you. I enjoy reading your observations.

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    I have posted some walkaround handheld shots form this afternoon in my S2 gallery. Out of about twenty shots I had one with any visible shake even at 100% on screen.

    ISO mode was set to Auto with ISO max of 640 and shutter of 1/f which in practice with the 70mm lens means 1/125th and higher. This seems to be pretty much nearly always enough to get rid of shake but as you can see that does mean that in the failing light of a winter's day, apertures are wide and DOF very narrow, as in this one:



    You can get the 100% from the gallery.



    Shot 17 shows something different: taken at 0.7 second with the 2 second self-timer and MUP, the camera was simply rested on the edge of a pulpit, rather than being bolted to $3,000 worth of carbon fibre and aluminium...



    Get the 100% version to see that there is not a jot of shake. None. I find that impressive, and very much what I most hoped to find...

    The gallery is at..

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p627107...9bad#h2ace9bad

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thomas, you are right about the moire and that is one of the reasons I use this test scene. I have sometimes seen some moire from the P45+ but not this strong. However I always develop P45+ files in C1 and when I open the S2 file you refer to in C1 the moire is far less of a problem. This might be a LR3 Beta issue. I will investigate. There is clearly the potential for an issue here.

    I have plenty of series of test shots with both the Phamiya 80mm and the new leaf shutter 80mm with the P45+ which show less than perfect edges until medium apertures. Only a side by side comparison with the S2 (which I don't have time to do right now) will tell for sure but I think there won't be much in it. It is irritating when Leica says that lenses are perfect wide open - I think they claim that for some M glass where it obviously isn't true. I am not disappointed by the 80mm Summarit but I am not wowed by it either. The 180mm is more impressive, as others have observed. The real test will be the wides. It is worth bearing in mind that a 4/3 aspect ratio fits into a smaller image circle than a 2/3 (I think?) and therefore the Leica corners are more challenged - though of course it is a challenge they set themselves and declare themselves to have won.
    T
    First time on this forum! thanks for useful posts.

    I presume you mean the 70mm Summarit? (not 80mm) can you explain further why you are 'not wowed' by it? This lens is after all the 'standard' and was a motivation to buy into the system... My order is in because I am interested in using this lens. I may cancel or pass if it does not come up to expectations.

    also have you compared the 80mm LS lens on the Phase against the D one - any improvement optically? I am not interested in the Leaf Shutter itself, but am always looking for better resolution at wider apertures. Mamiya make some pretty good glass imho, and the D range has great quality control, so it would not surprise me if the Schneider isn't really an improvement at all.

    Moire- indeed it is Leica's Achilles Heel. They trumpet the lack of AA filter, on M9 and S2, for what that does for resolution, and its true, but the cost is moire. It is clearly there in most urban images, and I am astonished when people claim not to ever see it. There is a very good reason why Canon etc puts AA filters on their sensors, and not just some meaningless tradition.

    Lastly: Guy - of course one does not buy into MF to shoot near wide open, thats dslr territory, but, sometimes it is useful and one should have the ability to work at f2.8-f4 with these expensive optics, and expect decent results. maybe not right in the extreme corner, but certainly in the broad central area. I was hoping the S2 standard optics would be a clear leader in this regard, but it sounds not, from what is being said here.

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    oh and: where are you people getting your upgrade DF bodies from?!

    I've had mine on order since it was announced, but not a peep from my dealer (major USA) despite me making a total nuisance of myself! The feeling I have is that Phase is prioritizing new system buyers over upgrade customers.

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    First time on this forum! thanks for useful posts.

    I presume you mean the 70mm Summarit? (not 80mm) can you explain further why you are 'not wowed' by it? This lens is after all the 'standard' and was a motivation to buy into the system... My order is in because I am interested in using this lens. I may cancel or pass if it does not come up to expectations.

    also have you compared the 80mm LS lens on the Phase against the D one - any improvement optically? I am not interested in the Leaf Shutter itself, but am always looking for better resolution at wider apertures. Mamiya make some pretty good glass imho, and the D range has great quality control, so it would not surprise me if the Schneider isn't really an improvement at all.

    Moire- indeed it is Leica's Achilles Heel. They trumpet the lack of AA filter, on M9 and S2, for what that does for resolution, and its true, but the cost is moire. It is clearly there in most urban images, and I am astonished when people claim not to ever see it. There is a very good reason why Canon etc puts AA filters on their sensors, and not just some meaningless tradition.

    Lastly: Guy - of course one does not buy into MF to shoot near wide open, thats dslr territory, but, sometimes it is useful and one should have the ability to work at f2.8-f4 with these expensive optics, and expect decent results. maybe not right in the extreme corner, but certainly in the broad central area. I was hoping the S2 standard optics would be a clear leader in this regard, but it sounds not, from what is being said here.
    Welcome!

    I do mean the 70 mm, sorry, doh! And it is a very good lens: it's just that the equivalent lenses by other MF manufacturers are very good too! As Guy says, none of them are perfect to the edges wide open, it just doesn't happen, whatever the hype. I would say that the Summarit is an excellent lens and that the reason it doesn't really wow me is that I am accustomed to the Phamiya 80D which is also excellent. I mildly prefer the bokeh of the Summarit though, I think! I, like you was hoping for a bit more but then I really should have gotten used to decoding marketing hype by now...

    As for the 80mm Phamiya LS lens, I did a comparison months ago and posted it here:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10527

    You will se that we are in 'angels on pinheads' territory here whne it comes to telling them apart. I suspect that sample variation would be more important: the first Mammy 80D I took delivery of was a dog...

    Best

    Tim

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    oh and: where are you people getting your upgrade DF bodies from?!

    I've had mine on order since it was announced, but not a peep from my dealer (major USA) despite me making a total nuisance of myself! The feeling I have is that Phase is prioritizing new system buyers over upgrade customers.
    That's what the Phase UK rep told me they'd do from the outset so I'm not surprised... I'm still waiting on mine...

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Good thread, Tim. Thank you. I enjoy reading your observations.
    Thanks Dale... I'm just hoping to have some other owners to explore all this stuff with soon!

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    First time on this forum! thanks for useful posts.

    I presume you mean the 70mm Summarit? (not 80mm) can you explain further why you are 'not wowed' by it? This lens is after all the 'standard' and was a motivation to buy into the system... My order is in because I am interested in using this lens. I may cancel or pass if it does not come up to expectations.

    also have you compared the 80mm LS lens on the Phase against the D one - any improvement optically? I am not interested in the Leaf Shutter itself, but am always looking for better resolution at wider apertures. Mamiya make some pretty good glass imho, and the D range has great quality control, so it would not surprise me if the Schneider isn't really an improvement at all.

    Moire- indeed it is Leica's Achilles Heel. They trumpet the lack of AA filter, on M9 and S2, for what that does for resolution, and its true, but the cost is moire. It is clearly there in most urban images, and I am astonished when people claim not to ever see it. There is a very good reason why Canon etc puts AA filters on their sensors, and not just some meaningless tradition.

    Lastly: Guy - of course one does not buy into MF to shoot near wide open, thats dslr territory, but, sometimes it is useful and one should have the ability to work at f2.8-f4 with these expensive optics, and expect decent results. maybe not right in the extreme corner, but certainly in the broad central area. I was hoping the S2 standard optics would be a clear leader in this regard, but it sounds not, from what is being said here.
    Both the 80D and 70 summarit are very good in the center not a issue at all wide open. Please do see the S2 review and you will see samples of this plus raw files you can download. Take the hour out of your day and read that whole review. It gives a great idea of the S2 and actually the Phase P40+ as well and many Raw files to download and compare . Also BTW welcome to the forum. Here is the link http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243

    Anyone even thinking of getting the S2 should read this review, it's awesome if i say so myself. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    That's what the Phase UK rep told me they'd do from the outset so I'm not surprised... I'm still waiting on mine...
    Just starting to be shipped Tim. Should be real soon to get yours. I just got mine a production version and it does rock so much nicer over the AFDIII and better than the demo also.
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    It's been a while ago I tested mirror shake and limits for handheld shooting with my setup (Contax+P45).
    Inspired by this thread respectively the topic mirror/shutter shake I did this test again today.

    Below screenshots from Capture One showing 100% crops; sharpening set to "Version 3.7 soft look" (after that I cropped them in Photoshop and safed the files as JPGs again… so there is double JPG compression; but the crops should be still good enough to tell the story).

    First of all mirror shake of the Contax is apparently not so heavy, actually it's quite soft. But, of course, clearly visible.
    Attachement #1 shows a shot from tripod with mirror lock at 1/60'' (f5.6); attachment #2 shows the same but without mirror lock (both with cable release).

    Attachment #3 shows one out of 5 shots taken handhold at 1/60'' (and without mirror lock, of course).
    That one looks "okay" but the other 4 samples look pretty much like attachment #4. So 1/60'' is certainly not the way to go here.

    Attachment #5 shows a shot taken handhold at 1/125'' (f4). I made 9 shots and 4 out of these 9 shots look like this one.
    The other 5 shots look pretty much like attachment #6. So roughly 50% keepers with regard to sharpness. Still not on the safe side…
    IMO mirror shake is not a real issue at this shutter speed with the Contax… so maybe someone who can shoot handhold better than me - and I guess there will be many that can - 1/125 might be okay for handheld shooting with the Contax in conjunction with a ~ 6micron sensor).

    I'd be interested how well the S2 & 70mm performs at 1/125'' (the 2 shots above at 1/125'' really look very good; question is how well you can reproduce this quality… I mean over the course of time, not in a boring test like mine) and if it is possible to shoot as well at 1/60'' without a significant loss of IQ.

  22. #22
    Phil Indeblanc
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by sendog View Post
    Moire- indeed it is Leica's Achilles Heel. They trumpet the lack of AA filter, on M9 and S2, for what that does for resolution, and its true, but the cost is moire. It is clearly there in most urban images, and I am astonished when people claim not to ever see it. There is a very good reason why Canon etc puts AA filters on their sensors, and not just some meaningless tradition.
    And that is why I don't use Cnon for any of the studio work, because of the AA filter. Kills the details in any subject with details.

    I wish Leica would have made an optional AA filter. How hard is it to integrate one at the back of the lens mount(not the sensor)? With the AA, you might find yourself (at least some) at a toss up when 35mm comes out with 30+MP DSLR's (like Sony, or etc.)

    If you add the filter you kill some serious IQ, if you don't you get the "occasional" moire? Add the filter, kill studio useage. take the filter off for outdoor, get color moire.

    So where does this camera belong as a prime setup? The body is built so well for out of studio, it makes you want to go places with it. How often have you seen the Moire Tim?

    For my non AA filter sensors/cameras, I hardly come across it in the studio, so it is a non issue for me. But with this S2 body, you are eagerly thrown out to shoot it, and you get this happen.

    This S2 is almost a hybrid of MFDB studio and DSLR...can it replace both? And do it pretty well (omit sports or some high frame/ISO desires/needs).

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Indeblanc View Post

    The body is built so well for out of studio, it makes you want to go places with it. How often have you seen the Moire Tim?
    I see it a bit, almost exactly as often as I see it on my digital M files and after having shown Lord knows how many of those to Lord knows how many people, I've had about one comment on moire and I have probably only bothered to treat it about twenty times. I know that in this price range we'd like to be able to have our cakes and eat them but the technology offers as either/or and that's it.

    Having said that, C1 is pretty good at moire reduction and my preferred method when it matters is to do two C1 versions, with and without corrections, then paint the corrections on using layers. Other people have much better techniques I'm sure!

    The S2 is going to be a great out of studio camera like the M's are. I'll deal with the moire, disappointing though it is...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Monopod-ability!

    This one at 1/12th second on a cheap monopod. I shot a few today and even of those at 1/8th, about half were very sharp or at least 'sharp enough'.

    Full size version can be dowloaded from the gallery at http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p1031184455-5.jpg

    but for those who don't have the time to wait, the plane of focus is very sharp!

    Best

    Tim


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    Re: Monopod-ability!

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    This one at 1/12th second on a cheap monopod. I shot a few today and even of those at 1/8th, about half were very sharp or at least 'sharp enough'.
    now that sounds really very good!
    Look at my quick monopod test... again at 1/60'' mirror shake becomes visible. Usable though. 1/30'' as well. But 1/15'' is useless.
    But... this is the P21+!

    As to moire it's not only about with or without AA filter. It's also about the microlenses. Moire on sensors without AA filter but without microlenses is much finer and much easier to correct (at least regarding the color artifacts; strong pattern moire may render an image useless... but myself I've never had such an image).

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Carefully check the 70mm for focus, choose some real-infinity samples. The samples I've seen match with the MTFs - corner performance on par or superior to Rodenstock HR (40%MTF above 50%in the corners) - otherwise the 70mm might be misscalibrated - that would be a shame. David Farkas has a nice open aperture sample, the corner crop has hard to tell apart from the center crop - that's what we should expect by such an expensive and complex design in comparison to "normal" standard lenses.

    "As to moire it's not only about with or without AA filter. It's also about the microlenses."
    Microlenses don't affect the sampling of detail (because they affect each photosite individually), alaising is a function of pixel-pitch, lens performance and detail. Moire is the artifact caused by debayering alaised detail and can be affected by the converter. Just try it with a P30+ and a P45+ (same sensor, with and without microlens) under the very same conditions - the moire remains the same.

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    Microlenses don't affect the sampling of detail (because they affect each photosite individually), alaising is a function of pixel-pitch, lens performance and detail. Moire is the artifact caused by debayering alaised detail and can be affected by the converter. Just try it with a P30+ and a P45+ (same sensor, with and without microlens) under the very same conditions - the moire remains the same.
    I've never seen this kind of moire (with bold color artifacts) from sensors without microlenses. But here and there I've seen those from microlenses sensors.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    The MTF charts for the first four lenses to be released compare very well with those of the smae focal lengths in the M range. It's also instructive to look at the chart for the 70 Summarit versus the Phase 80mm 2.8D, a comparison that implies (I am no MTF expert here so shoot me down!) that when I est the two against each other, the Leica should be a little sharper at the edges than the Phase especially wide open.

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    The S2 is going to be a great out of studio camera like the M's are. I'll deal with the moire, disappointing though it is...
    Tim, I am glad to hear this from you as it pretty much confirms my impression from shooting the S2 out of the studio for a day in November. That was make or break for me since I don't do studio. My day with the S2 also identified some things I didn't like, but most could likely be fixed via firmware. I know others that demo'd the S2 during this period had feedback to Leica as well.
    In case you didn't see it before: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12062

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    I don't get this. You people are buying a camera that isn't right yet, and are happy because you're confident Leica will eventually correct the little problems you and others have found.

    Is it too much to ask that they correct those problems before cashing your check?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I don't get this. You people are buying a camera that isn't right yet, and are happy because you're confident Leica will eventually correct the little problems you and others have found.

    Is it too much to ask that they correct those problems before cashing your check?
    Not too much, perfectly reasonable in fact. It just happens to be not the way the world works. Aspects of my Phase gear weren't up to snuff at first delivery, and that has been true of a number of systems in which I've invested at various times. FW is always a work in progress and often hits peak performance round about the time that the model of camera is getting long in the tooth. I don't like this scenario any more than you do but I decided to pay up and you seem to have decided not to!

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    I do understand Tim, and his experience with the S2 so far has probably been better than with the Phase system. However, I absolutely do not understand Peter. He was the heftiest critic of Leica and the S2 by some margin, with some of the points made coming in below the belt, IMO, and yet he goes out and buys one even before Leica fixes any of the issues. I would have been less surprised to wake up one morning with an S2 next to me!
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    I think it should be noted both Tim and Peter have full MF systems still in there cabinets. So buying a S2 at this time besides the money puts them in no real danger of not being able to complete a shooting job or something being shot where they are fully able to handle something comfortably with there existing systems.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think it should be noted both Tim and Peter have full MF systems still in there cabinets. So buying a S2 at this time besides the money puts them in no real danger of not being able to complete a shooting job or something being shot where they are fully able to handle something comfortably with there existing systems.
    Precisely Guy. Only an idiot would do a trade-in at this stage if they depended on being able to reliably shoot MF. There are still too many issues to bottom out and too much risk that other issues might be below the waterline.

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    @tashley
    When the 70mm really offers poor corner performance you shouldn't accept that, I have seen some early samples (even prototypes!) which showed some serious detail in the corners at open aperture (at least beyond 2m distance, I haven't seen really close focus open aperture samples with corner detail) - but DoF is really critical.
    Where have you seen MTFs for the Schneider/Phase-lenses?

    @thomas
    Just imagine using a tiny line-sensor with four photosites. As soon as detail close to Nyquist (2lp/mm or 4 lines) is projected (by a lens) to this array of photosites alaising occurs. That's physics and there's nothing you can do against it without lowering MTF. You can add an AA-Filter which lowers the contrast of fine detail at Nyquist to zero because it affects the sampling of information by the photosites by "spreading" information over adjacent photosites (that's why the image appears softer).
    But microlenses are just what their name implies: tiny lenses positioned individually over each photosite. Oblique light rays can produce lot's of weird effects like vignetting - but it doesn't affect the detection of light between photosites. I hope that's a useful explanation...

    You cannot compare the S2 regarding moire to other systems, because it's closed (different lenses) - but try it yourself with two MFDBs using the same sensor-architecture (31MP vs. 39MP-backs), even the tiniest change will change the appearence of moire (minor misscalibration of the tripod while changing the back for example). Lenses with high contrast at high frequencies usually make it worse, while weaker lenses work as some kind of AA-filter.

    I think Leica's statement regarding moire meant the internal JPG-processing which tries to suppress alaising - pretty pointless because JPGs won't be used for professional work anyway.

  36. #36
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    @tashley
    When the 70mm really offers poor corner performance you shouldn't accept that, I have seen some early samples (even prototypes!) which showed some serious detail in the corners at open aperture (at least beyond 2m distance, I haven't seen really close focus open aperture samples with corner detail) - but DoF is really critical.
    Where have you seen MTFs for the Schneider/Phase-lenses?
    http://www.phaseone.com/Lenses/Digit...ents/80mm.ashx

    Can't find an MTF for the LS lens, sorry!

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    Member markowich's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I do understand Tim, and his experience with the S2 so far has probably been better than with the Phase system. However, I absolutely do not understand Peter. He was the heftiest critic of Leica and the S2 by some margin, with some of the points made coming in below the belt, IMO, and yet he goes out and buys one even before Leica fixes any of the issues. I would have been less surprised to wake up one morning with an S2 next to me!
    carsten,
    you are right, but even a scientist has the right to be irrational once in a while---))) and as i said i did like the feel of it. anyway, it went back to maker.
    i shall give them a list of my issues, so i hope to do some good to the community.
    peter

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Back to the maker as in you have un-bought it, or for repairs?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Back to the maker as in you have un-bought it, or for repairs?
    i do not think that leica offers repair for the IQ issues we found.
    peter

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    So Tim, one whole month with no news. How is life with the S2?
    Carsten - Website

  41. #41
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    So Tim, one whole month with no news.
    He's still waiting for the buffer.


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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    He's still waiting for the buffer.


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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery


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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    And there is plenty of discussion here to:
    http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...t-gallery.html

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Jono,

    You may be surprised to find that Tim finds the S2 to be simply fab. It will even work with a cheap monopod.

    Steve

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Jono,

    You may be surprised to find that Tim finds the S2 to be simply fab. It will even work with a cheap monopod.

    Steve
    Actually, I'm not surprised . . I have talked to him about it. . Around here it may seem that he's pretty critical, but I think it's only when it's deserved. Great Guy, and a good photographer as well.
    That picture of Brighton Pier on his Zenfolio site certainly impressed me.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    So Tim, one whole month with no news. How is life with the S2?
    Peachy thanks Carsten! After some fairly minor teething issues, very responsively dealt with by Leica, I'm in plain sailing water. I am using the S2 more than I thought I would and more generally too, because I find it to be very hand-holdable. I like travelling with it too but until there's a wide and a TS solution, I'm holding on to the Phase system because there's a whole raft of stuff it does that I need.

    Actually the arrival of the S2 has heralded a bit of a general reshuffle. I'm selling my 5DII and my several years accumulation of Canon glass and bits and pieces because I figure I want one amazing small and light walkaround system (M9) and one system with extremely good AF and low light performance (to be a Nikon D3s) and one MF system, for which read two for now until the rest of the S system arrives or, if it doesn't, the S2 gets sold and I bump up the Phase system.

    I have this past week been making some large prints from the S2 and they look really nice. Is it 'better' than my Phase system? Objectively, in terms of image quality, there's very little in it even in a large print. But the S2 feels good and it makes me want to use it. So, like I say, peachy!

    Thanks for asking.

    Tim
    Last edited by tashley; 1st February 2010 at 14:01.

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Actually, I'm not surprised . . I have talked to him about it. . Around here it may seem that he's pretty critical, but I think it's only when it's deserved. Great Guy, and a good photographer as well.
    That picture of Brighton Pier on his Zenfolio site certainly impressed me.

    all the best
    From you, my friend, that is the greatest flattery. Cheque's in the post

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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Nice to have you back Tim. Can you post some of your S2 images for thread posterity?
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  50. #50
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Nice to have you back Tim. Can you post some of your S2 images for thread posterity?
    Thanks Jack! And of course... I haven't used it for anything serious yet, thought I wouldn't repeat my schoolboy errors of last year in using an entire new system without getting to know it properly first! But I have a gallery of casual shots here:

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p141510420

    None of these have any merit other than as part of my 'getting to know you' process with the S2 but now I've ironed all that stuff out I'll start to use it for more serious work. I certainly take it with me a lot at the moment when I'm just out and about, in case the light is suddenly nice. Here's a couple.

    As soon as (when, rather than if, I hope!) Leica introduce a T/S solution and release their wides, I'll most likely be selling various stuff I own at the moment and you have first dibs on the Hartblei!

    Best

    Tim

    Brighton Pier from a coupla days ago (not the one Jono refers to above!)



    And here's the one Jono mentioned




    This one's an homage to an English watercolourist, Hercules Brabazon (in other words it's murky on purpose!)


    I thought it handled this one quite well:


    and a 100% crop of the above:

    Last edited by tashley; 1st February 2010 at 16:11.

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