645 DF flash sync... only 1/400th sec?

[adamduckworth]

Seduced by the 1/1600th flash sync of the new Phase One 645DF, leaf shutter lenses and p40+ back, I bit the bullet and picked mine up yesterday.

And to my surprise, I can only make it sync properly at 1/400th or below. At that speed, all is good. Above it, it's not.

I'm using Elinchrom Ranger Quadras. I have tried both the A head and S-head (A has shorter duration), and both Elinchrom Skyport triggers and Pocket Wizards, and the same result.

If I take the fast A "Action" head, and plug it into the B socket (only one third power but faster ie shorter flash duration) then it will sync at up to 1/800th with significant loss of power. And having lots of power to overpower the sun is precisely why you want high speed flash sync in the first place! This makes it useless outdoors.

I've searched Phase forums and this one to see if anyone else has had the same problems...

Phase One forum says someone else has the same as me when using Profoto flash.The Phase One anser says suggests the flash duration on what it calls "cheaper"! flashes can be too long!

So I tried it with a Nikon SB800, which obviously has a short duration, and there's no joy with that either. Same result... well, it sort of syncs at 500th only if you have the flash on full power, but is pretty dark. In reality it's 400th or below.

Please, please someone tell me am I a total fool and am doing something wrong and just need to change a setting! I have read the user manual twice and can't seem to see what I'm doing wrong. Help!

I really hope this isn't an 18,000 Euro mistake!

Yes, I have emailed Phase...

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

Hi Adam,

I think Pocket Wizards sync at a max of 1/500s. Not sure about the Skyports.

Have you tried a hard connection?

David

 

[adamduckworth]

Ah... some more testing. I may have been a little reactionary!

It will sync at 1/800th (but not a jot above) if you use the Quadras at or near full power only... out of the A socket too (slow one but lots of power) on both A and S heads. A is twice as bright as S...

But here's a strange thing...

If I set the camera to 1/800th at f14 (which is what a flash meter says it should be)... then open right up to 1/800th at f2.8... the picture only gets about a tenth of a stop brighter...

Can anyone shed any light on this?

How can 1/800th give the same exposure at 2.8 as it does at f14? When the power of the fllash is constant... (Virtualy no ambient to consider..)

 

[adamduckworth]

Just had an email from Phase support, also suggesting I try with a hard wire connection...
And it works, sync up to 1600th from A or S heads at decent power.

But as 99% of working pros I know use PWs or other wireless to trigger flashes, this is absolutely awful.

And how do I trigger multiple packs? Get miles of sync cables and splitters and tape them on the floor or dig a trench outdoors to hide them? 18,000 Euros I spent yesterday to get a flash that syncs outdoors at fast speeds... and it's unuseable for what I want it for. Bloody marvellous.

One step forward: fast flash sync. One massive leap back!

So... does Hassleblad work like this too? Can you only sync above 400th if you use a hard wire?

 

[adamduckworth]

I just checked the Pocket Wizard site and if you use the Multimax remotes, there is a FAST mode specially for leaf shutter lenses which is supposed to sync up to 1/1000th sec.

So I tried it and it does work... to a point. Flash power is reduced... but like before, if I set 1/800th at f14, then change to f2.8, the pictures look virtually identical. maybe half a stop difference.

Any ideas what's occuring here?


EDITED MYSELF: And all of a sudden, it now DOES make a difference what aperture you set.... although not as much as it should ie the difference between f2.8 and f22 isn't that much.. certainly not five stops.


Edit again/.. and now it DOES make a huge difference...

Anyone seem to think I may have a faulty lens? Or have I got some dodgy custom setting thing going on?

 

[carstenw]

Check that the aperture isn't sticking. I have this problem with one of my lenses, and sometimes I don't notice, much to my later chagrin.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I just checked the Pocket Wizard site and if you use the Multimax remotes, there is a FAST mode specially for leaf shutter lenses which is supposed to sync up to 1/1000th sec.

So I tried it and it does work... to a point. Flash power is reduced... but like before, if I set 1/800th at f14, then change to f2.8, the pictures look virtually identical. maybe half a stop difference.

Any ideas what's occuring here?


EDITED MYSELF: And all of a sudden, it now DOES make a difference what aperture you set.... although not as much as it should ie the difference between f2.8 and f22 isn't that much.. certainly not five stops.


Edit again/.. and now it DOES make a huge difference...

Anyone seem to think I may have a faulty lens? Or have I got some dodgy custom setting thing going on?

Adam:

You might try a reset of Custom Functions just to (potentially) eliminate that possibility. Set to CF, then press and hold the +/- button for 5 seconds.


Steve Hendrix

 

[adamduckworth]

I reset the back, then tried again.

So... if you use Pw Plus Iis or Elinchrom Skyport, it only syncs to 400th.

If you use Multimax custom set to FAST, it works OK to about 800th... but the flash is about a stop less than if it's hard wired.

It does work at speeds up to 1600th, but at that the flash is about five stops less powerful than if it's hard wired.... so that's pretty useless then really!

Phase One support says they are collating a database of what speeds work with which flashes and radio remotes.

Oh yes, my Elinchrom A heads (faster) give about a stop more power when used with the DF compared to the S heads (even though they both put out the exact same actual power)

I've calmed down a bit now!

Perhaps the aperture was sticking or something... at one point the back beeped and the lens made a noise and all seems well now. Hope it's cos it was brand new!

 

[dougpeterson]

I reset the back, then tried again.

So... if you use Pw Plus Iis or Elinchrom Skyport, it only syncs to 400th.

If you use Multimax custom set to FAST, it works OK to about 800th... but the flash is about a stop less than if it's hard wired.

It does work at speeds up to 1600th, but at that the flash is about five stops less powerful than if it's hard wired.... so that's pretty useless then really!

The 1/1600th sync speed (only with P65+ and P40+) requires a firmware/hardware update of the digital back at Phase One. Exact timing/availability of that update is not available as they are just now rolling out the leaf shutter lenses.

That's why you're seeing strange results at 1/1600th.

Doug

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[adamduckworth]

Thanks Doug! Shame they didn't tell me that when I picked it up at the shop yesterday!

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

You might have more luck with a Pro Air...

http://www.profoto.com/products/profoto/accessories/sync_and_remote_devices/air-remote

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I thought the Skyports went to 1/1000th. I actually have the this same setup except I don't have a LS lens yet to try. YET

 

[adamduckworth]

Hi Guy... nice review by the way. There's no way I'd use a MF camera for that but all the best to you!

Skyports do indeed claim 1/1000th sync but on the DF is definitley only 400th...Not a jot of light gets throuhg at 1/500th, even using the fastest A head Quadras and max power.

I'm at the SWPP Convention in London tomorrow and the main man from Pocket Wizard is there (the designer, apparently! Over from USA) and I've arranged to meet him (I may be doing some Beta tests on new Pocket Wizard Flex and Mini for Nikon). Also a Phase One fella is there too so I'll rant... I mean talk.. to him.

As for the firmware update, as my back was ordered and delivered brand new from Phase I believe it has the latest firmware as with a hard wire, it will sync at 1/1600th... but at 2000th nothing.

I can't believe I've owned the camera a full day and the only pics I've taken with it are shots of my curtains in the dining room as I play with flash triggers and flash guns!

 

[pcunite]

Please note that Paul C Buff CyberSync triggers will sync at 1/4000. They use a different band from what PocketWizards do that makes them faster but have less range. You can use CyberSync in repeating mode to get the range of PW but then you loose sync speed and it is only 1/2500 or something like that. Of course for what your doing I doubt you need extended range.

 

[Henry Goh]

will this work?
put a very small flash on your 645DF shoe. Point it away from your subject such that it's light does not influence your set up. Use the photocell on your power pack to trigger the strobes when the small flash goes off. Will this now sync at 1/1600s ?

 

[Schmiddi]

Henry, this might work in studio (but there you don't need the fast shutter), but not outside... Radio transmitters always will need some time to trigger (they send a code that must be identified by the receiver), though with the 2,4GHz-system I would have expected no problems there.

Obviously a firmware-extension would be needed: Phase/Mamiya should add the possibility to adjust the time lag from firering the flash to opening the shutter. Adding a millisecond or two might make it...

Good to know about that - I think about going the step to MF, so when I rent one for a test I also will check this point

Andreas

 

[Dustbak]

I have never experienced problems that I can recall with high speed and Skyport.

I use my skyports, with either the Quadra's or the RX's or even with SB800's & SB80DX's quite often at 1/800th and without any problems.

On the Quadra's there is no difference when I use the A or B port. I have never experienced problems that I can recall in that area either.

To be exact, you really need the Quadra's to be useful at 1/800th outside since you 'only' have 400w/s max from 1 head. Together with 1 to 2 stops more sync and 1 stop lower ISO it is just enough to compensate compared to my more powerful Ranger.

BTW, the whole Quadra system fits perfectly in those rectangular Hasselblad cases (1 unit, 2 batteries, cables, Head & reflector)

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Love my Quadra a lot . I have a very small Lowe Pro shoulder bag it fits into and off i go.

This is the reason i bought one was for weight and compact but also to shoot at high sync speeds outside with the ability to use less power than the Ranger. I just need the LS lenses now but the whole idea here makes a load of sense. I pick up 2.5 stops of aperture just getting to 1/800 or there about. That is a huge advantage.

I also use the Skyports and just to get to 1/1000 would be fine with me until the unit gets updated

 

[adamduckworth]

Just tried the camera in the studio with Elinchrom studio lights and fastest sync is 1/320th with Skyports. So your 1/1000th is highly unrealistic, Guy!

I have no idea how Dustbak gets sync at 1/1000th... it's the delay in encoding then decoding the signal from thewireless transmitter that won't let it sync this high, claim both PW and ELinchrom. I met with Pocket Wizard people and ELinchrom people at the weekend, you see.

PW are going to look into it closely (and weren't even aware of the 1/1600th flash sync with the P40+).

And Elinchrom had a secret new product with them... and my pal is testing it for them right now on p40+/ Phase DF.
More news soon!

 

[kdphotography]

My studio is completely on Pocket Wizards, so the possibility to flash synch at the P40+/P65+ max of 1/1600 is not possible, and currently limited to 1/500. Paul Buff's Cyber Synch claims the ability to synch up to 1/2500. They are relatively cheap---so I just bought a set. We should be able to test them out on the P65+ in February when Dave Gallagher brings out a 645DF and Schneider 80mm LS for Capture Integration in Carmel.