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Thread: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Carsten

    Long time lurker, but not a poster... until now. Bravo! Your response was very thoughtful and insightful. Thanks.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Erm, thanks I do notice that you have 17 posts, however
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Nice post Carsten. I guess really to sum it up and we know I have been doing this a very long time but photography is really a lifetime expression of yourself. Folks you have to realize it takes years and years to grow into it and you have to have that patience but more important is you have to have fun , if it is not fun than it is hard to continue with anything in life . Photography is no different if it is not enjoyed like a fine wine than it is just a glass of grapes. To grow you need to have fun and also be persistent in the growth.

    This is why I love teaching workshops to help people grow. It's not just the technical part but the seeing part that is more important.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I would love to join you guys on one of your workshops, to learn more about the entire process, the fine-tuning, the software, the overall technique. Too bad it is so far away, and that my current situation doesn't really allow that amount of expense and separation from my family. Maybe one day...
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Carsten,
    Fantastic post, beautifully expressed thoughts. I know now that you are a true artist. The shot you posted is wonderful too. I hope to see your other series someday as graveyards are a little eerie to me!

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Thanks very much, I appreciate it. My next project will likely be on mechanical details. Hopefully that is not eerie, barring ghosts in the machine
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Carsten -

    You don't get to the meaningful depth and beauty of that photograph without some heavy work beforehand. Your time thinking about this, and working it have proven worthwhile. Wonderful shot.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    A couple dp20 shots. IIT at Chicago.
    Last edited by Geoff; 5th March 2013 at 04:39.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Carsten...Thanks a lot for your post. I am still learning, reading, trying on all my gear ( 35mm,MFDB,MF and 4x5 ) waiting and looking for the "muse" ( i.e. your "cementery" ) Whish that the best is yet to come.
    Luis

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Thought provoking piece of writing Carsten.

    The whole subject of "purpose" is a fascinating one to ponder when applied to such a ubiquitous medium as photography.

    While Graveyards have been done to death (pardon the pun), that in itself becomes the creative challenge. One that forces you to plumb the depths and add the personal insight that extracts one from any comparison as to what came before. You are a courageous man IMO.

    After many decades of making up my own "purpose", I've been most happy to apply personal insight to crass endeavors for pay. I do weddings because it gives me access to my favorite subject ... "The Human Condition". Even more "done to death", the creative challenge is also a very difficult one ... to push beyond the obvious surface event and the masks people wear, and see into the real "human condition" being presented. Sort of a social anthropologist with a camera

    We all find our way ... if we just keep trying.

    -Marc

    "The Eavesdropper"

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Thanks Marc.

    While it is possible that graveyards have been overdone (pun removed ), I don't care any more. At this point, I feel like this is my thing, I don't look at photos others have done, I just do it, and create my own aesthetic. If that ends up being the same as that of someone else, so be it. If it is new, great. Later in the cycle I might look closer at what has come before, but for now, I just want to establish my personal flow and approach to things.

    Yes, keeping trying is the key here. Keep trying, and one day something right will come along.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Carsten,

    You have the right attitude. Bravo!

    Wil
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    carsten, nice post, very familiar thinking to my old head and heart

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Thanks Marc.

    While it is possible that graveyards have been overdone (pun removed ), I don't care any more. At this point, I feel like this is my thing, I don't look at photos others have done, I just do it, and create my own aesthetic. If that ends up being the same as that of someone else, so be it. If it is new, great. Later in the cycle I might look closer at what has come before, but for now, I just want to establish my personal flow and approach to things.

    Yes, keeping trying is the key here. Keep trying, and one day something right will come along.
    That's the secret isn't it? Not caring that it's been done ... even pretending that it's never been done ... and proceeding with an innocent eye.

    Hmm, "Innocent Eye" ... I LIKE IT! I think I'll adopt that moniker into my teaching regimen. It sort of over-comes the latent fear that everything's been done ... that stops so many from moving forward.

    -Marc

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    My feelings entirely Marc. I'm shooting in an enviroment that has been so shot to death that I hesitated before starting. However I don't look at other work, I will only study the work of those shooting different genres as I know that I will just copy however subconsciously. I have a friend shooting with the same end goal as myself, in the same streets, also B&W and the same subject matter. Most of my work looks very different to his. I'm trying to express what I have in my soul, he isn't. That is what counts.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Fascinating thread.

    I have only been over here, on the MF side of the getDPI digital divide, once or twice since I sold my medium format gear about 6 months ago.

    After reading this thread, however, I realize how much I miss the group of internet friends I've made over the years (especially over here on getdpi). We've all made a variety of gear and format choices as we continue to try to express our vision of the world.

    I too struggled with if and why I should continue with MF last summer. In the end, I chose to sell my system as I came to the realization that even though I adored the file quality I was getting with the P45+ back I had, it just didn't completely fit with the way I like to shoot at this point in my life.

    I work in a field that is labeled as experiential marketing. It's a field where I try to help clients understand how they can use kinesiology (or learning through doing) to provide messaging to their customers in interesting and unexpected ways through movement. To help me understand my style of shooting better, I tried to first understand how I like to shoot. When I think about when I am most happy pursuing photography, it is when I am moving or just doing ... lost in my art.

    For some, that zen-like zone occurs when they are waiting for just the right ray of sunlight with gear at the ready on an outcrop overlooking the ocean at sunrise. Others, more readily find that zone while exploring--trying to find composition, humor or understanding in new and unexpected places often in a fraction of a second ... before they realize what they are shooting.

    I know now that I am firmly in that second camp even though I do relish and pursue rural and urban landscapes whenever possible. I also know that I am a better photographer for having spent time time in the MF camp as it has helped me understand how to get to my own experiential zone.

    I miss the big, juicy detail-filled files ... but I feel freer as I search for new photographic experiences with a smaller, more intuitive and fluid kit on hand.

    Kurt

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    It's a Rodenstock with aspherical glass. Yes, it's quite expensive (€260,- or so). I spent hours comparing... I don't know... 10? ... loupes and finally it was the Rodenstock due to the brightness, clearness, the magnification factor and the handling.
    Which one? I have one that's gray with little tabs where the strap attaches. I love it. It was also hideously expensive, but it's one of those things that only hurt once and then you never even consider replacing it. It's not like there's a better model every year. I can't seem to find any reference to the one i have online though...

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    That sounds more like the Schneider than the Rodenstock? The Rodenstock is black with a red string.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    I can't seem to find any reference to the one i have online though...
    I think it's the one on the left side of the image in this pdf: http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/medi...4-75__8229.pdf
    I agree: actually you are using those "little" tools for ever (unless they break).
    Basically, say, €50,- is way too much for crap. Whilst something like €250,- for good quality is okay if you count it for 20 years or even longer...

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    (Much expression of frustration)
    It takes time to develop an eye, visual aesthetic, sense of narrative, and all that. My overall advice would be to try to enjoy the journey.

    The other thing is that good photographs can't be reduced to technically excellent captures of inherently interesting subjects. Good photographs, like good writing, is about communication; creating something in the eye of the viewer. This is not easy.

    One very good exercise is to just pick something near you. It could be a car wheel, a piece of pavement, a house, a telephone pole - anything. Doesn't matter what. Go just stare at it and think of how you can portray it photographically. What does is inspire? What are its main visual attributes? Tactiles/texture (rough, sharp, woody, soft, wet, dry, etc)? Think through what it is you're actually looking at - not its purpose - but purely its form. Then think through what a photograph that communicates this might look like. Get photography books and see how others have communicated similar attributes in the past. Shoot it, print and post photographs on your wall - then look at them every day. Do they hold your interest, or do they get old (appear trivial)? Then RETURN TO THE SAME SUBJECT to pursue new ideas as you develop them. Find out why it works, or why not - you learn just as much from both. Repeat over and over again. (The last part is why picking something eminently accessible is important, you don't want it to take even five minutes to get there.)

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    That sounds more like the Schneider than the Rodenstock? The Rodenstock is black with a red string.
    Well, doh - you made me go check and yes it's a Schneider. I wonder why my brain remembered it as a Rodenstock... I guess I don't pay attention while using it. Anyway, it's excellent with the only drawback being that it's somewhat wide, but that goes with the wide field.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    The Rodenstock 6x loupe is kinda neat in that the skirt is reversible, and one half of the skirt is transparent, for looking at negs, and the other half is opaque, for focusing on the GG. The Schneider seems to have two skirts, i.e. there is the risk of losing one... They are about the same price.

    Thomas, do you recommend the 6x for GG focusing on a 4x5? I was wondering if 4x was enough...
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Kurt, thank you for posting here specially since you are someone who choose a different path than most other answers.

    The more I think about it the more 2 systems seem to support my creativity - one is the Leica M system since (for some reason) it just feels very intuitive to me, I dont have to think much, it just works, I know the system very well (using it for 20 years), I know how an image looks when I take it with the 35mm , or how it looks when I take it with 90 or with 21mm.
    Its the system which lets me just photograph what I see and feel.

    The 2nd system is MF.. it is not that simple (for me) but it forces and encourages me to take more time, to think about compostion etc. The images are more tecnical and less intuitive but again- it forces me to take time.

    The third system I own (Nikon DSLR) just works-fast and reliable, but I feel neither as free as I do with the Leica M nor as creative when I use MF.

    Its less emotional than shooting with the Leica M or the MF gear. The DSLR is very reliable though. I shot the wedding of my best friend and the Nikon felt like a life insurance when I used it. At no moment I had doubts to not get good images.

    Personally I have figured out several different kinds of photography which interest me..
    1) today life is fast and a lot of change.. photography allows me to catch moments of my life and bring them back to my mind. Looking at a smile of my daughter on an image allows me to remember the moment in the past and bringing it back to the presence and making me happy for a second time.
    2) I realized that people enjoy to get images showing them or images from their friends/family. Example: go to a restaurant, have fun with the waiter, take some images. I bring them a print next day and I get a smile (and maybe a free beer) ...so dont document the momentd just for myself but also for others
    3) photography allows to share beautifull or intersting sights/light/places with other people. They say 1 image can tell more than 1000 words and it allows to share with other people what you have seen
    4) Photography forces me to feel and see my surrounding and environment more active and intensive.
    5) besides all that - as a mechanical engineer I am also having fun with the equipment/technical side of photography.

    Now I dont remember why I wrote all this but I will post it anyways...
    Good Night, Tom

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    This thread has turned into my favorite for this year; thoughtful questions and very thoughtful responses.

    Don
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I also like the thread a lot, but I think it is a little early to decide which thread is the best of the year
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Hmmm maybe we should have a poll . Be interesting
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I find it somewhat ironic that an interesting thread because it dealt with the people's preferences, experiences and feelings - is now turning into a competition...about what is the 'best' thread - trully funny.

    Cameras arent complicated - people are.

    Add the reality of limitations regarding money, time, subject matter preferences and energy and we end up with our individual choices. The more experience one has with photography, the better able to pare down or up to whatever works for the individual.

    I t is as simple and complicated as that - philosophy it isnt.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I feel I need to clarify my earlier statement.

    It’s now the 28th day of the year and so far this thread has offered the most simple enjoyment and education in terms of what has been said and how. I totally agree with Carsten that while it’s a little early in the year it has nevertheless has turned in my personal favorite. The month is almost over and new things are being written on the horizon that may or may not surpass this thread only time can tell.

    Guy – no poll needed nor suggested.

    Peter – I agree very interesting thread and there’s no need to turn this into anything other than what it is.

    As a side note – as I was writing this I began to wonder if we’ve run the course on this thus the side tracking….

    Cheers

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Thomas, do you recommend the 6x for GG focusing on a 4x5? I was wondering if 4x was enough...
    I don't want to give misleading or wrong advice - you have to try it for yourself because this is very subjective, I think.
    Maybe on a regular (i.e. non fresnel) GG 4x is good or even better to check focus and at the same time DOF and/or tilt effect (at least an idea of DOF as you can never judge about that on the GG in consequence). My feeling with regard to my fresnel GG is that the 6x is better to check focus at the absolut focus spot.
    First I thought the 6x shows only more grain of the GG itself than the 4x loupe. But after carefull comparision I found the 6x in fact is better to judge about focussing. But again: I think this is very individual. All I can say is that I feel safe with the 6x Rodenstock and my fresnel GG on the WRS in conjunction with a P45 back, i.e. I can hit the focus very acurate.
    The most difficult motif/focus distance is near but not quite infinity. So with the 47XL distances from about 12 meters to 16 meters or so - even shooting at f11! Here I prefer to use a Laser distometer and meanwhile I know how to adjust the lens. But it's really impossible to judge about focussing these near to infinity distances on the GG... either way which loupe I use. But I guess with film (and at f22 / f32) that's not really an issue.

    My advice to you: if you get the camera just try out one of these inexpensive Kodak loupes to eye up slides (around €5,- or so). Cover it with tape so that it is not translucent anymore. If this works quite okay than try a 4x loupe with aspherical glass (the Schneider is brilliant!). If that's okay, buy it. If not not, try the 6x.
    Anyways... don't buy an expensive loupe prior to having an idea what kind of loupe you will need.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    18MP are enough for allmost all of my prints.
    The key word for me is "almost". Are you willing to give it up for the exceptions?

    I believe most MF shooters use multiple formats ... personally I have been using a Lumix GF-1 quite a bit lately, and I know many are using an M9. But when I'm doing a serious landscape shoot, I don't want to be limited as to my final size by the camera I'm using. My goal is always large, currently my standard size is 24x30. I actually stitch MF on occasion, especially when doing pano's because even 39mp isn't enough. Now my 59mp back may be better but still not sure on panos.

    I also find it much easier to compose and visualize on the ground glass of my PhaseOne system. I would have a very difficult time using an M9 as my main system, due to limitations in focal length and the viewfinder system. It would be great for a secondary camera.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    I would have a very difficult time using an M9 as my main system, due to limitations in focal length and the viewfinder system. It would be great for a secondary camera.


    Exactly the same way I see it. I see the M9 as a “complementary” camera. In other words a system that will give offers great IQ but doesn’t weigh as much as a small tank. Something I can take with me to places I haven’t yet explored and still an image I can use; at the same time if I find an area that shouts for MF then I can return with the tank. I stopped counting the number of times I’ve gone out to an area I had never been before and while I got a couple decent captures with the WRS I could have just as well been there with something lighter.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    18MP are enough for allmost all of my prints
    The key word for me is "almost".
    for me the keyword in the quote is "my" ("my prints" ...)

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post

    Thomas, do you recommend the 6x for GG focusing on a 4x5? I was wondering if 4x was enough...
    I'm not Thomas, but wanted to add my .02 for the record: IMO 4x isn't enough, and 6x is marginal. My most accurate focuses were derived with either my 8x or 10x Schneider loupes. I used the 8x with GG-fresnel combinations --- a fresnel adds a lot of "gook" to your focusing screen and it interferes with seeing precise detail as magnifications go up, similar to what Thomas mentioned regarding GG grain --- and I preferred 10X with straight GG's. On par, if I had to suggest one, I'd say get an 8, but you do need to learn to interpret the GG grain pattern and separate it from the image you're trying to focus.

    My .02,
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Tom,
    I will respond to your question later time since it involves more work and writing.
    Son

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    While my MF back has "only" 33MP I agree that here and then the 33MP are a benefit over the 18MP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    The key word for me is "almost". Are you willing to give it up for the exceptions?

    I believe most MF shooters use multiple formats ... personally I have been using a Lumix GF-1 quite a bit lately, and I know many are using an M9. But when I'm doing a serious landscape shoot, I don't want to be limited as to my final size by the camera I'm using. My goal is always large, currently my standard size is 24x30. I actually stitch MF on occasion, especially when doing pano's because even 39mp isn't enough. Now my 59mp back may be better but still not sure on panos.

    I also find it much easier to compose and visualize on the ground glass of my PhaseOne system. I would have a very difficult time using an M9 as my main system, due to limitations in focal length and the viewfinder system. It would be great for a secondary camera.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    for me the keyword in the quote is "my" ("my prints" ...)
    Well, I can only talk about myself and what I do, I think it is obvious that MF and more MP are an advantage for those who print big big.

    Even though I have also printed nice 50x70cm prints from the M8. Depends a lot of the subject though too and I guess also on posprocessing and upsizing skills (Postprocessing is another area where I could need some improvement by the way).

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Part of the issue with enough MPX at least on the client side of life is I have been burned before badly when a client takes a M8 file and goes much BIGGER than expected or originally thought at the time of shooting. This has hurt my relationships with them in some way. You go out and charge a nice healthy day rate or creative fee and the intended image was within your gear range and you knew that going in otherwise you would rent. But it is those after the fact situations when you walk in there door and they have prints the size of a 18 wheel truck on the wall and your heart sinks to the floorboards. It's happened to me on a few occasions and I need to end that . How to end it is impossible , you can't tell your client to stop it. So for me it is to over due it with MF and simply cover my arch at all times. Now the client knows even though I gave them a smaller file there is a 40 mpx raw sitting here in my Drobo and call me and i can reprocess to the sizing they need. I tell every client this fact you need big call me FIRST.

    Now does this come up enough to warrant it for some maybe but here is the point why get yourself in the jam to start with. Not worth the embarrassment that as hard and as good as the image is for the client it falls short on sizing. For me I can't handle that and maybe that is part of being the perfectionist that I am when I deliver to clients but I want to avoid those situations to start with. Just knowing I can do anything I want or the client wants to my files gives me peace of mind and adds value to my business. Now obviously we are all not in this situation but even as a hobbyist you nail one one day that is just killer and it does come up when someone may want to buy a print and they want it big. Obviously there is genuine factals and techniques to get there but having that file on hand is very satisfying as a shooter be it a Pro or not.

    The bottom line for me is this if I can see the quality difference in even in a small print size than that is enough for me to shoot MF all the time. There is a certain pride I carry regardless of client needs that I need to fill personally with my work. You have to make yourself happy before you ever make the client happy . My one liner that I have used in my signature still holds very true here. I pretty much live and die by this rule

    "It's not always about what the client will accept but about what you want to deliver to your client."


    On a very personal note I have not been happier in my whole career and it is a long one until I moved to MF digital.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Good morning ? Guy
    the problem is I am my own client and I am picky sometimes.
    I can fully see your reasons to use MF (plus I can see that its much easier to justify such gear if you make money with it)
    And I agree that even if you do not intent to shoot something for a big print it is good to have the option to print big if you get a real keeper image.

    On the other side I wouldnt underrate the M9. There are situations where I believe I can take the better image with the M9, specially if you do not have that much light and if you shoot people etc.
    A slight focus inaccurany, slight shake vibration, cranked up ISO etc. will destroy big part of the MF advantage.
    Plus the M9 comes out of the back, switched on, focused etc faster than my MF gear - so sometimes you catch a moment with the M9 which woiuld have gone once my MF gear would be ready to shoot.
    Same for situations where you could shoot handheld with the M9 but would need a tripod when shotting MF.

    One thing I am kind of surprized is that you guys do use 4/3 as a secondary system but not Leica M. IMO the difference in IQ between 4/3 and M9 is there and visible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Part of the issue with enough MPX at least on the client side of life is I have been burned before badly when a client takes a M8 file and goes much BIGGER than expected or originally thought at the time of shooting. This has hurt my relationships with them in some way. You go out and charge a nice healthy day rate or creative fee and the intended image was within your gear range and you knew that going in otherwise you would rent. But it is those after the fact situations when you walk in there door and they have prints the size of a 18 wheel truck on the wall and your heart sinks to the floorboards. It's happened to me on a few occasions and I need to end that . How to end it is impossible , you can't tell your client to stop it. So for me it is to over due it with MF and simply cover my arch at all times. Now the client knows even though I gave them a smaller file there is a 40 mpx raw sitting here in my Drobo and call me and i can reprocess to the sizing they need. I tell every client this fact you need big call me FIRST.

    Now does this come up enough to warrant it for some maybe but here is the point why get yourself in the jam to start with. Not worth the embarrassment that as hard and as good as the image is for the client it falls short on sizing. For me I can't handle that and maybe that is part of being the perfectionist that I am when I deliver to clients but I want to avoid those situations to start with. Just knowing I can do anything I want or the client wants to my files gives me peace of mind and adds value to my business. Now obviously we are all not in this situation but even as a hobbyist you nail one one day that is just killer and it does come up when someone may want to buy a print and they want it big. Obviously there is genuine factals and techniques to get there but having that file on hand is very satisfying as a shooter be it a Pro or not.

    The bottom line for me is this if I can see the quality difference in even in a small print size than that is enough for me to shoot MF all the time. There is a certain pride I carry regardless of client needs that I need to fill personally with my work. You have to make yourself happy before you ever make the client happy . My one liner that I have used in my signature still holds very true here. I pretty much live and die by this rule

    "It's not always about what the client will accept but about what you want to deliver to your client."

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Well, I can only talk about myself and what I do ...
    Depends a lot of the subject
    yes, that's what I wanted to emphasize: it really depends on what you shoot and the way (and size) you print.
    I have even a 90x60cm print from a 10MP DSLR and it's really very nice. However this only applies to that special motif and I would never say with 10MP you can always print 90x60.
    Finally, and that's probably the most important point, it depends on the look you prefer; an uber sharp look is not everyones taste. This depends on the printing technique and the papers you use as well. Me personally I love the look of an LED printer on FUJI papers. No inkjet printer produces that photographic look nor does a lambda (laser) printer produces that look. Than again when I intend to produce a somewhat artificial pushy look I prefer inkjet prints (and the required post processing, of course).

    Your M9's 18MP are huge! You can do many, many things with 18MP.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Good morning ? Guy
    the problem is I am my own client and I am picky sometimes.
    I can fully see your reasons to use MF (plus I can see that its much easier to justify such gear if you make money with it)
    And I agree that even if you do not intent to shoot something for a big print it is good to have the option to print big if you get a real keeper image.

    On the other side I wouldnt underrate the M9. There are situations where I believe I can take the better image with the M9, specially if you do not have that much light and if you shoot people etc.
    A slight focus inaccurany, slight shake vibration, cranked up ISO etc. will destroy big part of the MF advantage.
    Plus the M9 comes out of the back, switched on, focused etc faster than my MF gear - so sometimes you catch a moment with the M9 which woiuld have gone once my MF gear would be ready to shoot.
    Same for situations where you could shoot handheld with the M9 but would need a tripod when shotting MF.

    One thing I am kind of surprized is that you guys do use 4/3 as a secondary system but not Leica M. IMO the difference in IQ between 4/3 and M9 is there and visible.
    Well I had the M8 and it was not enough . The M9 would be a lot better for sure. Problem with it is cost and it's a 12k investment to a backup system or secondary system. Hard to do both , the 4/3 rds is truly the fun camera and run out the door type. My primary is full res MF my secondary is sensor plus although same system. But to me your right I would love to have the M9 as the secondary system the issue is cost and also the limitations . You adding another system in that can't do certain things. Like walking with two bum knees's instead of 1.

    I thought seriously about another M8 but I don't want to go backwards either but if I could get a M9 system for cheap than i will replace the 4/3rds with it. This is going to take some time and a better economy to get one
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I will tell you honest but don't take me wrong, in fact i enjoy photography very much and i love a lot of my works, i even won in few competitions and many people on some websites told me that i have amazing work, but i think i was lucky, but i really don't depend on luck as i really know what i do or want, on the other hand, some shots that i am so proud of when i posted in high level websites like LL or NPN, NS and so don't get more attention, even it is funny if a winner shot when i post on one of those website and i don't say anything about it as winner then i have some critiques and no much reply.

    So my point is, if i am happy with my works and i always try to learn and improve [and sure you will say the same about yourself] then i don't need to post here and either get no replies or critiques that will disappoint me more than encouraging me, and it is really bothering me if someone critiquing my work or others while his work is not that top notch or not much better than us. I know my situations here is really bad for me to have many many photographs and improving myself, but so far within 4 years i have some nice work and happy so far, and i should enjoy myself and don't listen much to others or please others or show my work to all and get upset if not much review and positive comments.

    Would you want me to keep posting on this forum even my work is not as the level of yours?

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Of course! But I know the problem of critique coming from people who cannot do better themselves, or just from people who are being more critical than helpful. When I post photos here, I post only my best, and then I listen to all who reply, but most to those who I respect, not only as photographers, but also as people. I ignore comments I cannot agree with on any level.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    some shots that i am so proud of when i posted in high level websites like LL or NPN, NS and so don't get more attention
    (...)
    get no replies or critiques that will disappoint me more than encouraging me, and it is really bothering me if someone critiquing my work or others while his work is not that top notch or not much better than us.
    Simply forget comments in public photo forums. I mean: post images, comment images, but always pick only the really relevant critiques and comments. If there are any at all. What's the value of a comment like "nice", "awsome", "phantastic shot"? Does that lead you to anything other than a short smile on your face (which is nice and worth the effort but still doesn't tell you anything about your photography).
    It is also working the other way around: if the "right" person is saying that she/he doesn't like an image of mine I think: well, than it can't be too bad. Know what I mean?

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    Would you want me to keep posting on this forum even my work is not as the level of yours?


    You really only need to please two people; yourself first then your client. I sell landscape images and will not offer anything I'm proud of. It's different if you are shooting commission work as you can't choose the subject; however you still need to be pleased with the finished work.

    So to answer your question - yes keep posting images so long as you are pleased and proud of them.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I post images all the time and most times not even a great shot comment. That is not to say i need to hear it either but like Don said you need to please yourself and still post what you like and that is what counts and when you get a comment take it as face value and who it is coming from. Obviously someone that you enjoy seeing there work and respect may mean a lot to you and some folks may make negative comments. You need to sift through things and learn from them. Honestly it is a great learning tool to post and gather feedback as well. Not everything you post will be perfect and learning what can make it better or what may work visually better is a great learning tool.

    I teach workshops and not every image that crosses may path from students is a winner but they are also looking to me to help them make there next shot better and honest critique is what they are after and I certainly let them know when they hit it and when they don't because that is why they are there. I would be a failure as a instructor to say great, great ,great at every image. That is NOT what they are paying for, they want me to help them figure out the best composition best light and best image given the subject. Ask any workshop member here and I will move them , re crop on them , get them laying down on the ground or whatever it takes to get them a great shot even before they press that shutter. Look to posting images this way and that is too learn from the comments and grow from that but the end of the day bottom line if it does not please yourself than get yourself back out there and make it please yourself. You need to drive yourself to improve on all levels and this also takes time to learn on all levels. I learn something everyday when I have a camera in my hand and on every shoot. Trust me I am proud to say that and more than thrilled to learn something everyday. This forum is about learning and sharing. That is the premise why we started it and it will continue in that vein until Jack and I decide to turn the lights out. Our members want to learn and share that is why they are here and grow there photography and have some fun along the way. You shut yourself out you won't learn a thing. At least that is how I feel.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    There are a huge amount of variables that are often overlooked when evaluating the whole MFD verses something else smaller ... be it a DSLR or a M9 or what-ever.

    At the commercial level Guy has touched on some ... mainly the ubiquitous habit of re-purposing any given shot. However, it isn't just printing images much larger than initially thought at the time of the shoot ... sometimes the client crops the heck out of a file to focus on some feature they didn't think of prior to the shoot. For example: shoot a whole canoe for a Johnston Outdoor Sports catalog and later, they zoom in on details for an in-store poster that wasn't part of the original catalog application. It happens all the freaking time.

    Then there is retouching and stripping of 2 or more separate shots done at different times and different places. I get that with my GM shoots frequently .... a photo of a car done before the final decision as to what wheels go on it ... so I have to shoot the new wheels to match. You need super high resolution to do this kind of stuff because of the post work needed ... not to mention how difficult it is to frame and position such products through a squinty little viewfinder.

    Then there is all the various bleed sizes that require that the actual subject matter be smaller and floating in an extended background to accommodate anything from a digest page to a double truck spread in tabloid sized media. Heck, I've been on shoots where the MFD was close to running out of resolution ... let alone a 35mm DSLR.

    Subject matter can also be a big deciding factor ... shooting specular jewelry and chrome objects is a bear ... and every DSLR I've tried to use for this stuff has been a struggle, or failed to even come close to what a near 645 MFD does standing on its head.


    I do NOT agree that other solutions are necessarily better for people shooting. I do most all of my paying portrait work with a MFD. First off, I can use flash sync at a much higher shutter speed for fill ... and it's true sync, not some HHS flash that's good out to 6 feet if you're lucky. The file size allows me to leave elbow room for cropping later ... and the MFD ratio is more efficient when matching actual print sizes. Clients often order 17 X 22 prints when they see the fidelity on screen which is even better when printed large. This is especially true when shooting groups either for a corporation or a family. Every person is crystal clear. I've shot every person at a wedding ... all the guests ... like 200 people .... and in a 17 X 22 print they are all perfectly clear ... resolution and dynamic range to the point that I could print a passable 5X7 of each person.

    Just my 2˘ based on real world applications ... maybe boring perhaps, but it is all real stuff faced every day by thousands of shooters.

    -Marc

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    You know, you do not have to be a star Quarterback to be a great Coach. Two different things really.

    So, it isn't always how good someone else is at photography, it's how insightful they are in commenting on your work. Did it ring true? Or did it make you think differently about what you are doing? Did it push you, Etc.?

    I doubt the great Art Director for Harpers Bazaar, Alexey Brodovitch, could out-photograph Irving Penn ... but his influence on Penn's work was immeasurable.

    Carefully pick who you listen to ... then listen to them carefully.

    -Marc

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    OK, thats it, i will post something time to time here whether you really like my work or not, at the end what is working for me doesn't mean it work for you, and i try to apply the rules/basics/conditions about exposure/composition/WB/color/...etc as i can to have better overall photos, so after all that if it still doesn't work there are 2 things:
    1. I can't do better even with many positive feedback
    2. I know i can do better but need time/place to make it better next time, including my situations that may stop me to go back and do it again better.

    There is something i want to talk about, is it really important that i have good shots overall by my post processing is bad? which is better, normal nice shot [natural look with no much pp mostly] or with another shot could be bad original out of camera but with PP it turns amazing?

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I think it is relatively rare for a bad shot to get good with PP, and you really need to be an expert to see in the right way to pull this off. Start with getting good shots in the camera, and maybe later on you can make them worse
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I think it is relatively rare for a bad shot to get good with PP, and you really need to be an expert to see in the right way to pull this off. Start with getting good shots in the camera, and maybe later on you can make them worse
    I like this, well said

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