Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

[Paratom]

After roughly 2 years of digital MF use I am in the crisis now.
In the beginning I was convinced by some of my first results that MF gives me superior clarity and tonality compared to my Nikon and Leica systems.
(However I believe that in my first testings some focus errors had been envolved in favor for MF and the real distance is not as much as I initially thought).
I also liked the large viewfinder and the more traditional approach (WLF etc).
In the beginning I used it quite a bit but lately (and specially after the M9 appeared) I explored again how good results I can get with the M9, with lugging around much less wait, having more accurate focus/ better percentage of keepers, less post processing and much less obstrusive.
18MP are enough for allmost all of my prints.
My MF back (Sinar75LV) has pretty good high ISO for MF so I can use the back without tripod as well but still the whole gear is slow and heavy and large and takes attention (I knew this before but maybe ignored it or thought I would accept it9. With the M9 delievering me so good I now really wonder if I should not get out of MF.
I like hiking, I like outdoor sports etc. Yes, one can carry a MF camera for a while (and I did) but it only makes sense if one gains on the other side (which I dont see that much any more). The most beautiful places and light I have experienced at places where one can not park a car.
With the Leica 24/1.4 I can now even get that wide angle-shallow DOF look which is normally difficult to achieve with sensors smaller than MF.
The small IQ advatage of my Hy6 is then sometimes destroyed by smallest focus inaccurancies .
If I sell my MF gear (Hy6+Sinarback+Artec) it ould be a large loss and emotional difficult but then it doesnt make sense if I dont use it that much.

The other thought is if maybe a lighter MF system would offer me more flexibility and focus accurancy. (Maybe like the new phase body or the S2 system)

So here are some questions:
.anybody here also compared the M9 with MF and can tell me his opinion how IQ compares as long as you do not have to upres. the M9 shots?
-how accurate is the AF of your MF-system? (By the way the new Hasselblad approach could really make sense IMO)
-How accurate can you focus it manually if it is not on a tripod and your subject is not still?
-anybody else who has been in a comparable situation like me and wants to share his decision and if he regrets getting out of Medium format?
-Who thinks that Medium Format does work for subjects other than exterieurs/interieurs and shots from parking lots of national parks as well as studio shooting? This is not meant critically but I am really trying to find out what makes sense and what does not.

And last but not least: Why do you use MF???

 

[Wim van Velzen]

Are you still enjoying the process of taking pictures and the results (regardless of camera)? I know I am not always as much into photography as in other times, and I tend to blame the gear - which is not really sensible. I then just need a break and wait for the itch to come back.

If that is not the case, then I would ask myself: when do I enjoy taking photographs most? For me the answer is: when I am outdoors, have enough time and know I have the best gear with me. That is why I use MF, because it fits into my (emotional) workflow.

 

[evgeny]

I started to sell some gear two months ago, and feel that it's healthy and wealthy to part with overbought equipment. I think keepers should provide something unique not available elsewhere.

A small lightweight camera can be a natural companion to a heavy studio setup, but I wouldn't take an M9, because I cannot focus manually on moving subject (people).

Hope this helps.

 

[fotografz]

This is actually a really good question IMO.

I also have the M9 and added a 24/1.4 & 0.95 Nocti to my stable of M lenses. Interestingly, while on vacation break in St. Pete's beach FL I had the opportunity to shoot with a demo S2 and my M9 side-by-side. For most of those type of shots (without up rezing the M shots) I liked the M stuff better. Obviously there was no equivalent to the S2's 180mm and there isn't a wide lens for the S2 out yet. But in general the M9 was more than enough even if I used some of the shots commercially. However, it's clear that the M system could never cover all of my needs.

I have sold a whole bunch of MF gear in the past few months for the same reasons you are considering. Most all of it was beloved legacy Hasselblad gear that I found myself using less and less ... and costing more and more to keep up with current digital improvements (CFV/39 back). I'm talking like an entire 503CW system from fisheye to 350mm and a 203FE kit with most all of the FE lenses.

What I realized was it was the form factor of the Legacy equipment ... marvels of engineering beauty ... but larger, slower, boxy and manual ... and best used on a tripod.

I mostly shoot people handheld, along with some studio product work, and commercial location jobs. I am using that Legacy cash to upgrade my H3D-II/39 to a H4D/60. I got the H initially because the AF was better and faster than anything out there at the time. The new True Focus innovation re-inforces that decision for the subjects I tend to shoot most ... people ... and the new high resolution LCD and improved focus assist will improve functionality to increase the usage of MFD for more of my work ... plus the system can do anything in studio or on location. 60 meg will clearly distance my MFD system from anything in 35mm land.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[carstenw]

Well, you know that my setup is similar to yours, if not quite as elaborate, and that I am having similar feelings at the moment, but with slightly different conclusions.

For others: I have Leica M6, M8, Contax 645 AF, Hasselblad 2000FC/M and a Sinar eMotion 54 LV, as well as some very nice lenses for all of these.

I bought the Sinar because at the time I was really enjoying digital with my M8, but there was no M9 on the horizon and I wanted more quality. Higher resolution, larger dynamic range, better tonal gradation, and so on. I also wanted to get back to a larger, more deliberate camera, with a slower workflow. The Sinar e54 was perfect, especially since I could decide whether I wanted to use it on the Contax, Hasselblad, both, or even add another camera, like the arTec, or a Cambo WRS, etc.

However, I had some reliability issues, probably with my Contax 645 AF and/or the adapter, and it took me a while to track the cause down, clean the contacts carefully all around, re-assemble with the adapter, and check that the hangs went away (not quite completely, but MFDBs are known to have the occasional glitch, so close enough).

Then I was having some issues with metering, where under some circumstances the exposures would turn out several stops too dark. I don't yet know completely what causes this, but I suspect the spot metering on my prism. I need to run some tests under controlled conditions with another spotmeter handy. I can see this on the histogram and correct it, but it takes me out of the flow when I need to fiddle with stuff like this. The fact that the same back used to work perfectly with your Hy6 is probably attributable to the superior integration there.

I have been reading this and other similar forums for a long time, and most or all backs will have these or similar problems, as well as colour casts, CF card problems, and so on, without exception. The fact that some people manage to avoid the problems more or less completely doesn't contradict this in general. Usually there is a reason for the glitches, and it is possible to track it down and fix it, and with time it is possible to understand all the gotchas and potential traps and work flawlessly, and I have been making progress towards that point.

Finally, adding yet another piece of software to the mix is not exactly going in the right direction for me. Given that my free time is severely limited due to having a 1-year old daughter, I didn't want to spend my time on issues like this, but just on shooting. These are all exactly the kinds of issues which Leica wants to solve with the S2, but that camera is out of my reach for now, and for a long time.

One difference between us is that you always also had a DSLR in between, recently the Nikon D3x. I find that that the Leica M and a DSLR overlap a fair amount, and again the DSLR overlaps a fair amount with MF digital, so I chose not to have a DSLR. Sometimes I wonder if it was the right decision, and I have had situations where I could have used the extra abilities of a DSLR, but overall, I think that I did indeed make the right decision.

---

At the same time, I started using B&W film again, and found myself really enjoying it a lot. More than expected. In fact, in the 6-8 months I have had the Sinar back, I have probably made more exposures on MF film, and more importantly, I have enjoyed the process much more. I don't have the instant feedback with histogram and so on, and have to just trust that I got the shot, but that hasn't stopped me, it has rather encouraged me. There is something about a pure film workflow which is just much more fluid and artistic, and less technical.

My current long-term projects is old cemetaries in Berlin, and I have been shooting Adox CHS 25 with the Contax 645 AF, with 35mm f/3.5 Distagon and 120mm f/4 APO-Makro-Planar, and love the process and the results, which contain just a touch less raw information than an exposure from the Sinar. My output is low, and with a combination of home processing and scanning, I can easily handle the volume. The look of B&W film is something else though, and especially the way that highlights and shadows are handled I find preferable with film.

So I have toyed with selling the Sinar back, and continuing with everything else. There is still several months of warranty on it, which should help me sell it. I haven't quite decided yet, because it does leave an unfilled hole in my system, i.e. high resolution digital. I could get a Sony A900, or even the M9, if needed. For now though, the M8 and Contax 645 AF cover all my needs. I might also sell the M6, which I rarely use. When I switch to film, I switch to MF.

---

Long post, little useful information for you so far, so let me come to the point.

I think it is all about what you enjoy. I found the technical demands of getting used to and operating MF digital to be non-conducive to the calm and slow-thinking way of photography that I was seeking.

When are you happiest making photos? As long as the camera systems don't pose a heavy burden on your finances, which I trust is the case, then there is no reason to rush to get rid of it.

You could also simply use it differently. One example: examine your hiking/mountain shots made with the Hy6. Which are the best, and which are your favorites? Could you have made those with just one lens, or maybe two. Maybe a small satchel with the Hy6 and two lenses is all that you need to enjoy the results you were after?

Another example: do you enjoy film? If so, you could use the Hy6 with film (645 so far, but there are rumours of a coming 6x6 back from the re-born Rolleiflex manufacturing), and use the arTec with digital. You could reformulate your pursuits to match this task division better. You could also put the emphasis in your photography in a different place, perhaps visiting nearby cities more, to do more architectural photography. The arTec is such a unique and exciting tool that I think you shouldn't sell it until you have absolutely exhausted its possibilities and are sure that it is not for you.

You could also push the M9 more in the direction of family+travel, like I do, and deliberately use the MF systems for all more serious photography. This would let you spend more time with the MF systems, which I think is important for its enjoyment. If you have too many systems and too little time with each, then the enjoyment goes down. I find that I enjoy myself the most and get the best results when I am working with a system and in a workflow which I am completely comfortable with, and could almost do with my eyes closed (apart from the obvious need to see the scene).

If you really find that you don't use all components enough, you could also sell one part (arTec or Hy6) and focus more on the other. If you are not sure if that is the right decision, you could also simply pack one up and put it in your closet for 3 months, and not use it at all. You will see if you miss it.

Anyway, I do hope that you don't sell all your MF equipment to use only the M9, possibly combined with a DSLR. There is something special about the larger cameras which one doesn't get from 135 systems, IMO.

 

[Paratom]

thank you guys. I think time is one of the problems. Time for photography is limited for me these days and I often try to combine photography with outdoor activity and/or my family.

The few times I did use my Artech I enjoyed it a lot and I had never taken so much time for an image which felt good. But then the results from the M9 look so good that i sometimes think-why spending 2 hours for 3 photos if I can take them in 10 minutes with the M9. (of course not t/s)

The other thing is that I now sometimes feel the more "emotional" intuitive photography with the M9 vs the more "controlled technical composing" with MF can lead to images with more "feeling/expression" even if not technically 100%.

 

[carstenw]

I think if you are comparing using the M9 with the Hy6 or arTec, *for the same photos*, then you maybe don't need both. However, if there are photos you can make (and want to make) with, say, the arTec, which you *cannot* make with the M9, then there is a reason for both. It seems that maybe the Hy6 is the camera which gets lost a little in the middle, although it is of course much more portable than the arTec, for hiking.

Very important is the feeling you had when using the arTec, however. This is the sort of feeling that I am pursuing with my Contax 645+film work. If for you it is digital with the arTec, then so be it. In fact, given that the Contax 645 is just a DSLR, I am also currently adding a 4x5 camera, with two lenses. This will give me the image control which the arTec gives you.

Maybe try putting the Hy6 on the shelf for two months and see where your photography goes.

Ultimately, there are two reasons to pursue photography: the enjoyment of the process, and the enjoyment of the results. Each piece of photographic equipment should help you pursue one or both of these goals. If it doesn't, then why have it?

 

[Paratom]

ALSO CARSTEN AND MARC, THANK YOU FOR THE replies which do help.
I will not rush and give it some time.
One thing is sure I have too much gear and therefore I am not taking advantage of it since each system needs training (specially postprocessing).
The other thing is that for some reason the M9 just works very well for me from the first minute, and for some reason the images dont need much processing at all for my taste.
The large WLF of the Hy6 is great and I enjoy it if I have the time, but those lenses are huge and "schlepping" them around is quite a workout.
Sometimes I think the smaller and lighter Phamya would have been better (but then I want WLF) and sometimes I think I would enjoy the more classic Hassy V system better (like a 205TC ) just for form and emotional reasons.

So yes, there is still something I "feel" for MF.

Using film for some things also came to my mind.
I have to check availability and prices of labs in my region since i dont like scanning (myself).

 

[carstenw]

Keep in mind that unless you can find somewhere close to where you live, all places in Germany are equally far away: one trip to the post office Find the best place in Germany, if you don't want to do it yourself.

I just want to re-emphasize one thing: I use MF mostly because of the enjoyment of the process. The results are different too, but if I didn't enjoy the process, I would find a way to do it with the M8 (or M9).

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Tom I tried the whole M8 thing only and after awhile it was very clear to me i just could not get it ALL done with just that system alone. Besides the fact it was a heavily expensive system that had my shooting limitations as we know the RF systems have. Than I switched entirely to MF and I could get a lot more done but still lacked the need for the 35mm DSLR type bodies. One reason I kept upgrading up was to give me more functionality in the MF system. Today with the P40+ and Sensor Plus with the new DF i can honestly say 35mm no more ever unless some very special need comes along than I will just rent. Today this new setup is very fast on all fronts for me so I can actually get it all done now. Part of the issue you maybe having is this legacy of older MF gear that maybe too slow, too heavy and just a time wasting proposition. Not to say sell it all and rebuild it although you could. I think you have to realize this is what you have and that's it and with the M9 you have two systems that have the same issues, neither one of them can't do it all. Although I like the M9 myself with the bigger file you still can't do everything. Now no system out there can't do it all but they can get very close.

Today my life has gotten very simple one main system with one software and my files are clean coming right out of the box, so my post work is very little. For the fun camera i have a GF1 and with that I can still use the same software and it is a easy cam just to throw over your shoulder and run out the door. Now as a hobbyist you obviously don't have some of the needs as a working Pro but want the same quality of cams they use. This I totally understand but it seems to me that the fun factor is leaving you with too much cumbersome crap going on. Last thing one wants as a hobby is a hassle otherwise it's not a hobby anymore, it's a job. Just something to bounce around

I agree with Carsten you must enjoy the process of photography otherwise it's a hobby you soon just may walk away from. I love to play golf but the 5 hour process get's to be a hassle and than i go months without playing because of it .

 

[Don Libby]

I see a similarity here. I waited approximately 6-months after getting my Cambo WRS before deciding to sell my 645 and all the lenses. It wasn’t an easy decision to do but afterwards I felt fine and now almost 12 months later I feel it still was the right decision. That brings us up to date. I’ve developed bursitis in my shoulders that comes and goes and can be so painful it hard to take a shirt off at night. I understand now that the days of me packing my gear and going off the beaten path are all but over and that for me to continue shooting medium format will require me to stay closer to the vehicle. Recently in the South Rim I took a short 3 hour walk among the trails with my 1DsII IR and found that became very heavy and in the end one of my shoulders suffered for it. After that I figured WTF – I need a system that I could carry without the problems; I needed a lightweight camera that would give me excellent image quality and while not on par with MF at least close. I’ve set my sights on the M9.

My plan which is what I’d recommend to you is to keep your MF gear and continue using it but also use your M9 as a complementary camera system. There’ll be times, places where you take the M9 and afterwards if you find a spot that cries out for MF then go back with it. From what I understand at least with the files you get from the M9 you’ll still get great IQ and still be able to print large.

Give it time. It’s easy to sell equipment but hard as hell to get it back if you discover you’ve made a mistake. You say yourself selling the MF gear could be a large loss and emotional loss.

I sound like a broken record when I repeat this however here it goes again. There was a car commercial (Cadillac) where the spokesperson asks “when you turn your car on does it return the favor?”. The same can be true with camera gear. When you turn your camera on does it return the favor? I ask myself that question about the Cambo WRS and the answer is an absolute yes. The same question for my 1DsII IR and the answer is a little more subdued but yes nevertheless.

It might come to a time I shoot less and less of it however the times I do shoot it I’ll keep asking myself the same question. So long as my answer remains positive I’ll keep it.

Don

 

[carstenw]

Don, I am sorry to hear about your shoulders, and hope it doesn't affect what you are able to get in print.

Have you thought about a lighter kit, somehow strapped on around your waist? There are bags which have both shoulder straps and waist straps, and it must be possible to rig something so that you can carry most or nearly all of the weight with your waist. If possible, it might even be worth commissioning a custom bag to fit you, perhaps with a special flap for the WRS itself.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I sound like a broken record when I repeat this however here it goes again. There was a car commercial (Cadillac) where the spokesperson asks “when you turn your car on does it return the favor?”. The same can be true with camera gear. When you turn your camera on does it return the favor? I ask myself that question about the Cambo WRS and the answer is an absolute yes. The same question for my 1DsII IR and the answer is a little more subdued but yes nevertheless.


Funny Don I say the same thing when i see this commercial . Except the one with that cute actress from private practice than it's not about the gear anymore. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[kdphotography]

Is it me, or does this thread sound unmistakenly like a group therapy session?

:ROTFL:

I ain't ready to admit anything yet....

 

[Jack]

Tom,

You raise a very good question for sure, and one that has affected many of us as you can see by the stories told so far.

What's already been shared is excellent, and I only have a few comments to add about my perspective.

First, let's get to comparing the M9 directly to MF. On our Oregon workshop last fall, one of the participants had brought along two sets of 24x32 inch prints, a B&W set and a color set. The images in each set were of the same subject except one was taken with a Hassy H-39 and the others were taken with a 2-frame stitch out of the M9. As you know, stitching is pretty easy for static subjects, and MF subjects are often fairly static. Bottom line was this, IMO only, and perhaps others that saw them will chime in: From a net detail standpoint as seen in the prints, thee was very little to tell them apart. In fact, the M prints had slightly more DoF which was most visible in the B&W composition. Anyway, for that reason, I actually chose the M9 B&W as the preferred result. In the color pair, the detail was again for all intents and purposes Identical. However, color tonality was a completely different story. The color shot was of a thick forest floor, with lots of various shades of green, from blue-green to yellow greens, along with some subtle tonal gradations in the browns. Bottom line here was that in the M9 print, most of the greens all looked the same color, while in the Hassy shot you could see a wide variety of subtle color gradation. In my mind here, there was no contest. The artist admitted he spent a lot of time in post getting the M file to look right, or at least as tonally diverse as the Hassy file. FWIW, that artist is still shooting his Hassy AND his M9.

Now my story. Based on my needs, I just sold my Canon kit. And not so much because my P65+ has "so much better detail," but more due to its ability to render a broader range of hues, and having almost 2 stops more total DR. Not that I always need all the DR the MF back gives me, but its sure nice not to have to take two frames for a later tonal blend when you do need it.

But we all know the MF rig is not ideal for many subjects -- casual, street and travel being just a few common ones. Here I would still be shooting an M myself, except for one fact --- with my aging eyes it was getting more and more difficult for me to nail focus, especially in low light, so I succumbed to AF with MF confirmation. My current "small" kit is a GF1 -- one of the micro 4/3rds cameras if you have not heard of it. It is 11MP, has some excellent lenses, and is tiny, lightweight and relatively inexpensive --- you can assemble an entire 2 body kit with 5 lenses for half of what you paid for your 24 Lux, and it will all fit in a Domke F803 messenger bag. So that's my travel and casual camera. No, it isn't the same IQ as an M, far from it. But the reality is I can make a very good looking 15x20 print from it and it does STELLAR B&W...

What I no longer have is a true speed demon with 8 FPS and AF that sizzles in light that only cats can see in. And it's too early to tell if I will miss those features, but the reality was I hadn't used the DSLR system but once or twice in the past 6 months. And then with the recent upgrades to my MF body and higher ISO capabilities of my MF back, I figure I can press the MF kit into service to cover those somewhat rare situations I used the speed demon for. I've taken some of the money from the DSLR sale and expanded my MF lens line.

What I can tell you is that right now, it does feel somewhat freeing to be down to two systems that cover 98% of what I shoot.

Hope this helps,

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Warning OT

Don take a look at this bud it maybe able to get the Arca with 2 or 3 lenses and get the weight off the shoulder and put on your waist instead

http://www.thinktankphoto.com/products/speed-racer-belt-pack.aspx

 

[T.Karma]

"Is it me, or does this thread sound unmistakenly like a group therapy session?"

:ROTFL:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I hold group therapy sessions every Thursday night for gear sluts anonymous. :lecture:
The problem is you get a hell of a lot worse than you get better.

 

[T.Karma]

I doubt that the value of the Hy6 will ever start to raise again, so if you are not certain about its optical or artistic values for yourself, it boils down to the simple question sell now or sell later. I would say sell now and write the financial loss off to personal experience. Otherwise you will step back and fourth, always pondering if your MF rig should deserve more attention and what to do with it. My prediction is, that with the money you can generate now by selling it, in a couple of years you will be able to afford something that is equal or better.

 

[T.Karma]

I hold group therapy sessions every Thursday night for gear sluts anonymous. :lecture:
The problem is you get a hell of a lot worse than you get better.

Once that demon has caught you, you simply can't escape, I know, I know .....:toocool: