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Thread: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

  1. #1
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    Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    After roughly 2 years of digital MF use I am in the crisis now.
    In the beginning I was convinced by some of my first results that MF gives me superior clarity and tonality compared to my Nikon and Leica systems.
    (However I believe that in my first testings some focus errors had been envolved in favor for MF and the real distance is not as much as I initially thought).
    I also liked the large viewfinder and the more traditional approach (WLF etc).
    In the beginning I used it quite a bit but lately (and specially after the M9 appeared) I explored again how good results I can get with the M9, with lugging around much less wait, having more accurate focus/ better percentage of keepers, less post processing and much less obstrusive.
    18MP are enough for allmost all of my prints.
    My MF back (Sinar75LV) has pretty good high ISO for MF so I can use the back without tripod as well but still the whole gear is slow and heavy and large and takes attention (I knew this before but maybe ignored it or thought I would accept it9. With the M9 delievering me so good I now really wonder if I should not get out of MF.
    I like hiking, I like outdoor sports etc. Yes, one can carry a MF camera for a while (and I did) but it only makes sense if one gains on the other side (which I dont see that much any more). The most beautiful places and light I have experienced at places where one can not park a car.
    With the Leica 24/1.4 I can now even get that wide angle-shallow DOF look which is normally difficult to achieve with sensors smaller than MF.
    The small IQ advatage of my Hy6 is then sometimes destroyed by smallest focus inaccurancies .
    If I sell my MF gear (Hy6+Sinarback+Artec) it ould be a large loss and emotional difficult but then it doesnt make sense if I dont use it that much.

    The other thought is if maybe a lighter MF system would offer me more flexibility and focus accurancy. (Maybe like the new phase body or the S2 system)

    So here are some questions:
    .anybody here also compared the M9 with MF and can tell me his opinion how IQ compares as long as you do not have to upres. the M9 shots?
    -how accurate is the AF of your MF-system? (By the way the new Hasselblad approach could really make sense IMO)
    -How accurate can you focus it manually if it is not on a tripod and your subject is not still?
    -anybody else who has been in a comparable situation like me and wants to share his decision and if he regrets getting out of Medium format?
    -Who thinks that Medium Format does work for subjects other than exterieurs/interieurs and shots from parking lots of national parks as well as studio shooting? This is not meant critically but I am really trying to find out what makes sense and what does not.

    And last but not least: Why do you use MF???

  2. #2
    Wim van Velzen
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Are you still enjoying the process of taking pictures and the results (regardless of camera)? I know I am not always as much into photography as in other times, and I tend to blame the gear - which is not really sensible. I then just need a break and wait for the itch to come back.

    If that is not the case, then I would ask myself: when do I enjoy taking photographs most? For me the answer is: when I am outdoors, have enough time and know I have the best gear with me. That is why I use MF, because it fits into my (emotional) workflow.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I started to sell some gear two months ago, and feel that it's healthy and wealthy to part with overbought equipment. I think keepers should provide something unique not available elsewhere.

    A small lightweight camera can be a natural companion to a heavy studio setup, but I wouldn't take an M9, because I cannot focus manually on moving subject (people).

    Hope this helps.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    This is actually a really good question IMO.

    I also have the M9 and added a 24/1.4 & 0.95 Nocti to my stable of M lenses. Interestingly, while on vacation break in St. Pete's beach FL I had the opportunity to shoot with a demo S2 and my M9 side-by-side. For most of those type of shots (without up rezing the M shots) I liked the M stuff better. Obviously there was no equivalent to the S2's 180mm and there isn't a wide lens for the S2 out yet. But in general the M9 was more than enough even if I used some of the shots commercially. However, it's clear that the M system could never cover all of my needs.

    I have sold a whole bunch of MF gear in the past few months for the same reasons you are considering. Most all of it was beloved legacy Hasselblad gear that I found myself using less and less ... and costing more and more to keep up with current digital improvements (CFV/39 back). I'm talking like an entire 503CW system from fisheye to 350mm and a 203FE kit with most all of the FE lenses.

    What I realized was it was the form factor of the Legacy equipment ... marvels of engineering beauty ... but larger, slower, boxy and manual ... and best used on a tripod.

    I mostly shoot people handheld, along with some studio product work, and commercial location jobs. I am using that Legacy cash to upgrade my H3D-II/39 to a H4D/60. I got the H initially because the AF was better and faster than anything out there at the time. The new True Focus innovation re-inforces that decision for the subjects I tend to shoot most ... people ... and the new high resolution LCD and improved focus assist will improve functionality to increase the usage of MFD for more of my work ... plus the system can do anything in studio or on location. 60 meg will clearly distance my MFD system from anything in 35mm land.

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it

    -Marc

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Well, you know that my setup is similar to yours, if not quite as elaborate, and that I am having similar feelings at the moment, but with slightly different conclusions.

    For others: I have Leica M6, M8, Contax 645 AF, Hasselblad 2000FC/M and a Sinar eMotion 54 LV, as well as some very nice lenses for all of these.

    I bought the Sinar because at the time I was really enjoying digital with my M8, but there was no M9 on the horizon and I wanted more quality. Higher resolution, larger dynamic range, better tonal gradation, and so on. I also wanted to get back to a larger, more deliberate camera, with a slower workflow. The Sinar e54 was perfect, especially since I could decide whether I wanted to use it on the Contax, Hasselblad, both, or even add another camera, like the arTec, or a Cambo WRS, etc.

    However, I had some reliability issues, probably with my Contax 645 AF and/or the adapter, and it took me a while to track the cause down, clean the contacts carefully all around, re-assemble with the adapter, and check that the hangs went away (not quite completely, but MFDBs are known to have the occasional glitch, so close enough).

    Then I was having some issues with metering, where under some circumstances the exposures would turn out several stops too dark. I don't yet know completely what causes this, but I suspect the spot metering on my prism. I need to run some tests under controlled conditions with another spotmeter handy. I can see this on the histogram and correct it, but it takes me out of the flow when I need to fiddle with stuff like this. The fact that the same back used to work perfectly with your Hy6 is probably attributable to the superior integration there.

    I have been reading this and other similar forums for a long time, and most or all backs will have these or similar problems, as well as colour casts, CF card problems, and so on, without exception. The fact that some people manage to avoid the problems more or less completely doesn't contradict this in general. Usually there is a reason for the glitches, and it is possible to track it down and fix it, and with time it is possible to understand all the gotchas and potential traps and work flawlessly, and I have been making progress towards that point.

    Finally, adding yet another piece of software to the mix is not exactly going in the right direction for me. Given that my free time is severely limited due to having a 1-year old daughter, I didn't want to spend my time on issues like this, but just on shooting. These are all exactly the kinds of issues which Leica wants to solve with the S2, but that camera is out of my reach for now, and for a long time.

    One difference between us is that you always also had a DSLR in between, recently the Nikon D3x. I find that that the Leica M and a DSLR overlap a fair amount, and again the DSLR overlaps a fair amount with MF digital, so I chose not to have a DSLR. Sometimes I wonder if it was the right decision, and I have had situations where I could have used the extra abilities of a DSLR, but overall, I think that I did indeed make the right decision.

    ---

    At the same time, I started using B&W film again, and found myself really enjoying it a lot. More than expected. In fact, in the 6-8 months I have had the Sinar back, I have probably made more exposures on MF film, and more importantly, I have enjoyed the process much more. I don't have the instant feedback with histogram and so on, and have to just trust that I got the shot, but that hasn't stopped me, it has rather encouraged me. There is something about a pure film workflow which is just much more fluid and artistic, and less technical.

    My current long-term projects is old cemetaries in Berlin, and I have been shooting Adox CHS 25 with the Contax 645 AF, with 35mm f/3.5 Distagon and 120mm f/4 APO-Makro-Planar, and love the process and the results, which contain just a touch less raw information than an exposure from the Sinar. My output is low, and with a combination of home processing and scanning, I can easily handle the volume. The look of B&W film is something else though, and especially the way that highlights and shadows are handled I find preferable with film.

    So I have toyed with selling the Sinar back, and continuing with everything else. There is still several months of warranty on it, which should help me sell it. I haven't quite decided yet, because it does leave an unfilled hole in my system, i.e. high resolution digital. I could get a Sony A900, or even the M9, if needed. For now though, the M8 and Contax 645 AF cover all my needs. I might also sell the M6, which I rarely use. When I switch to film, I switch to MF.

    ---

    Long post, little useful information for you so far, so let me come to the point.

    I think it is all about what you enjoy. I found the technical demands of getting used to and operating MF digital to be non-conducive to the calm and slow-thinking way of photography that I was seeking.

    When are you happiest making photos? As long as the camera systems don't pose a heavy burden on your finances, which I trust is the case, then there is no reason to rush to get rid of it.

    You could also simply use it differently. One example: examine your hiking/mountain shots made with the Hy6. Which are the best, and which are your favorites? Could you have made those with just one lens, or maybe two. Maybe a small satchel with the Hy6 and two lenses is all that you need to enjoy the results you were after?

    Another example: do you enjoy film? If so, you could use the Hy6 with film (645 so far, but there are rumours of a coming 6x6 back from the re-born Rolleiflex manufacturing), and use the arTec with digital. You could reformulate your pursuits to match this task division better. You could also put the emphasis in your photography in a different place, perhaps visiting nearby cities more, to do more architectural photography. The arTec is such a unique and exciting tool that I think you shouldn't sell it until you have absolutely exhausted its possibilities and are sure that it is not for you.

    You could also push the M9 more in the direction of family+travel, like I do, and deliberately use the MF systems for all more serious photography. This would let you spend more time with the MF systems, which I think is important for its enjoyment. If you have too many systems and too little time with each, then the enjoyment goes down. I find that I enjoy myself the most and get the best results when I am working with a system and in a workflow which I am completely comfortable with, and could almost do with my eyes closed (apart from the obvious need to see the scene).

    If you really find that you don't use all components enough, you could also sell one part (arTec or Hy6) and focus more on the other. If you are not sure if that is the right decision, you could also simply pack one up and put it in your closet for 3 months, and not use it at all. You will see if you miss it.

    Anyway, I do hope that you don't sell all your MF equipment to use only the M9, possibly combined with a DSLR. There is something special about the larger cameras which one doesn't get from 135 systems, IMO.
    Last edited by carstenw; 24th January 2010 at 03:57.
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    thank you guys. I think time is one of the problems. Time for photography is limited for me these days and I often try to combine photography with outdoor activity and/or my family.

    The few times I did use my Artech I enjoyed it a lot and I had never taken so much time for an image which felt good. But then the results from the M9 look so good that i sometimes think-why spending 2 hours for 3 photos if I can take them in 10 minutes with the M9. (of course not t/s)

    The other thing is that I now sometimes feel the more "emotional" intuitive photography with the M9 vs the more "controlled technical composing" with MF can lead to images with more "feeling/expression" even if not technically 100%.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I think if you are comparing using the M9 with the Hy6 or arTec, *for the same photos*, then you maybe don't need both. However, if there are photos you can make (and want to make) with, say, the arTec, which you *cannot* make with the M9, then there is a reason for both. It seems that maybe the Hy6 is the camera which gets lost a little in the middle, although it is of course much more portable than the arTec, for hiking.

    Very important is the feeling you had when using the arTec, however. This is the sort of feeling that I am pursuing with my Contax 645+film work. If for you it is digital with the arTec, then so be it. In fact, given that the Contax 645 is just a DSLR, I am also currently adding a 4x5 camera, with two lenses. This will give me the image control which the arTec gives you.

    Maybe try putting the Hy6 on the shelf for two months and see where your photography goes.

    Ultimately, there are two reasons to pursue photography: the enjoyment of the process, and the enjoyment of the results. Each piece of photographic equipment should help you pursue one or both of these goals. If it doesn't, then why have it?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    ALSO CARSTEN AND MARC, THANK YOU FOR THE replies which do help.
    I will not rush and give it some time.
    One thing is sure I have too much gear and therefore I am not taking advantage of it since each system needs training (specially postprocessing).
    The other thing is that for some reason the M9 just works very well for me from the first minute, and for some reason the images dont need much processing at all for my taste.
    The large WLF of the Hy6 is great and I enjoy it if I have the time, but those lenses are huge and "schlepping" them around is quite a workout.
    Sometimes I think the smaller and lighter Phamya would have been better (but then I want WLF) and sometimes I think I would enjoy the more classic Hassy V system better (like a 205TC ) just for form and emotional reasons.

    So yes, there is still something I "feel" for MF.

    Using film for some things also came to my mind.
    I have to check availability and prices of labs in my region since i dont like scanning (myself).

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Keep in mind that unless you can find somewhere close to where you live, all places in Germany are equally far away: one trip to the post office Find the best place in Germany, if you don't want to do it yourself.

    I just want to re-emphasize one thing: I use MF mostly because of the enjoyment of the process. The results are different too, but if I didn't enjoy the process, I would find a way to do it with the M8 (or M9).
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Tom I tried the whole M8 thing only and after awhile it was very clear to me i just could not get it ALL done with just that system alone. Besides the fact it was a heavily expensive system that had my shooting limitations as we know the RF systems have. Than I switched entirely to MF and I could get a lot more done but still lacked the need for the 35mm DSLR type bodies. One reason I kept upgrading up was to give me more functionality in the MF system. Today with the P40+ and Sensor Plus with the new DF i can honestly say 35mm no more ever unless some very special need comes along than I will just rent. Today this new setup is very fast on all fronts for me so I can actually get it all done now. Part of the issue you maybe having is this legacy of older MF gear that maybe too slow, too heavy and just a time wasting proposition. Not to say sell it all and rebuild it although you could. I think you have to realize this is what you have and that's it and with the M9 you have two systems that have the same issues, neither one of them can't do it all. Although I like the M9 myself with the bigger file you still can't do everything. Now no system out there can't do it all but they can get very close.

    Today my life has gotten very simple one main system with one software and my files are clean coming right out of the box, so my post work is very little. For the fun camera i have a GF1 and with that I can still use the same software and it is a easy cam just to throw over your shoulder and run out the door. Now as a hobbyist you obviously don't have some of the needs as a working Pro but want the same quality of cams they use. This I totally understand but it seems to me that the fun factor is leaving you with too much cumbersome crap going on. Last thing one wants as a hobby is a hassle otherwise it's not a hobby anymore, it's a job. Just something to bounce around

    I agree with Carsten you must enjoy the process of photography otherwise it's a hobby you soon just may walk away from. I love to play golf but the 5 hour process get's to be a hassle and than i go months without playing because of it .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I see a similarity here. I waited approximately 6-months after getting my Cambo WRS before deciding to sell my 645 and all the lenses. It wasnít an easy decision to do but afterwards I felt fine and now almost 12 months later I feel it still was the right decision. That brings us up to date. Iíve developed bursitis in my shoulders that comes and goes and can be so painful it hard to take a shirt off at night. I understand now that the days of me packing my gear and going off the beaten path are all but over and that for me to continue shooting medium format will require me to stay closer to the vehicle. Recently in the South Rim I took a short 3 hour walk among the trails with my 1DsII IR and found that became very heavy and in the end one of my shoulders suffered for it. After that I figured WTF Ė I need a system that I could carry without the problems; I needed a lightweight camera that would give me excellent image quality and while not on par with MF at least close. Iíve set my sights on the M9.

    My plan which is what Iíd recommend to you is to keep your MF gear and continue using it but also use your M9 as a complementary camera system. Thereíll be times, places where you take the M9 and afterwards if you find a spot that cries out for MF then go back with it. From what I understand at least with the files you get from the M9 youíll still get great IQ and still be able to print large.

    Give it time. Itís easy to sell equipment but hard as hell to get it back if you discover youíve made a mistake. You say yourself selling the MF gear could be a large loss and emotional loss.

    I sound like a broken record when I repeat this however here it goes again. There was a car commercial (Cadillac) where the spokesperson asks ďwhen you turn your car on does it return the favor?Ē. The same can be true with camera gear. When you turn your camera on does it return the favor? I ask myself that question about the Cambo WRS and the answer is an absolute yes. The same question for my 1DsII IR and the answer is a little more subdued but yes nevertheless.

    It might come to a time I shoot less and less of it however the times I do shoot it Iíll keep asking myself the same question. So long as my answer remains positive Iíll keep it.

    Don
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Don, I am sorry to hear about your shoulders, and hope it doesn't affect what you are able to get in print.

    Have you thought about a lighter kit, somehow strapped on around your waist? There are bags which have both shoulder straps and waist straps, and it must be possible to rig something so that you can carry most or nearly all of the weight with your waist. If possible, it might even be worth commissioning a custom bag to fit you, perhaps with a special flap for the WRS itself.
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I sound like a broken record when I repeat this however here it goes again. There was a car commercial (Cadillac) where the spokesperson asks ďwhen you turn your car on does it return the favor?Ē. The same can be true with camera gear. When you turn your camera on does it return the favor? I ask myself that question about the Cambo WRS and the answer is an absolute yes. The same question for my 1DsII IR and the answer is a little more subdued but yes nevertheless.


    Funny Don I say the same thing when i see this commercial . Except the one with that cute actress from private practice than it's not about the gear anymore.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Is it me, or does this thread sound unmistakenly like a group therapy session?



    I ain't ready to admit anything yet....


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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Tom,

    You raise a very good question for sure, and one that has affected many of us as you can see by the stories told so far.

    What's already been shared is excellent, and I only have a few comments to add about my perspective.

    First, let's get to comparing the M9 directly to MF. On our Oregon workshop last fall, one of the participants had brought along two sets of 24x32 inch prints, a B&W set and a color set. The images in each set were of the same subject except one was taken with a Hassy H-39 and the others were taken with a 2-frame stitch out of the M9. As you know, stitching is pretty easy for static subjects, and MF subjects are often fairly static. Bottom line was this, IMO only, and perhaps others that saw them will chime in: From a net detail standpoint as seen in the prints, thee was very little to tell them apart. In fact, the M prints had slightly more DoF which was most visible in the B&W composition. Anyway, for that reason, I actually chose the M9 B&W as the preferred result. In the color pair, the detail was again for all intents and purposes Identical. However, color tonality was a completely different story. The color shot was of a thick forest floor, with lots of various shades of green, from blue-green to yellow greens, along with some subtle tonal gradations in the browns. Bottom line here was that in the M9 print, most of the greens all looked the same color, while in the Hassy shot you could see a wide variety of subtle color gradation. In my mind here, there was no contest. The artist admitted he spent a lot of time in post getting the M file to look right, or at least as tonally diverse as the Hassy file. FWIW, that artist is still shooting his Hassy AND his M9.

    Now my story. Based on my needs, I just sold my Canon kit. And not so much because my P65+ has "so much better detail," but more due to its ability to render a broader range of hues, and having almost 2 stops more total DR. Not that I always need all the DR the MF back gives me, but its sure nice not to have to take two frames for a later tonal blend when you do need it.

    But we all know the MF rig is not ideal for many subjects -- casual, street and travel being just a few common ones. Here I would still be shooting an M myself, except for one fact --- with my aging eyes it was getting more and more difficult for me to nail focus, especially in low light, so I succumbed to AF with MF confirmation. My current "small" kit is a GF1 -- one of the micro 4/3rds cameras if you have not heard of it. It is 11MP, has some excellent lenses, and is tiny, lightweight and relatively inexpensive --- you can assemble an entire 2 body kit with 5 lenses for half of what you paid for your 24 Lux, and it will all fit in a Domke F803 messenger bag. So that's my travel and casual camera. No, it isn't the same IQ as an M, far from it. But the reality is I can make a very good looking 15x20 print from it and it does STELLAR B&W...

    What I no longer have is a true speed demon with 8 FPS and AF that sizzles in light that only cats can see in. And it's too early to tell if I will miss those features, but the reality was I hadn't used the DSLR system but once or twice in the past 6 months. And then with the recent upgrades to my MF body and higher ISO capabilities of my MF back, I figure I can press the MF kit into service to cover those somewhat rare situations I used the speed demon for. I've taken some of the money from the DSLR sale and expanded my MF lens line.

    What I can tell you is that right now, it does feel somewhat freeing to be down to two systems that cover 98% of what I shoot.

    Hope this helps,
    Jack
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Warning OT

    Don take a look at this bud it maybe able to get the Arca with 2 or 3 lenses and get the weight off the shoulder and put on your waist instead

    http://www.thinktankphoto.com/produc...belt-pack.aspx
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    "Is it me, or does this thread sound unmistakenly like a group therapy session?"


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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I hold group therapy sessions every Thursday night for gear sluts anonymous.
    The problem is you get a hell of a lot worse than you get better.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I doubt that the value of the Hy6 will ever start to raise again, so if you are not certain about its optical or artistic values for yourself, it boils down to the simple question sell now or sell later. I would say sell now and write the financial loss off to personal experience. Otherwise you will step back and fourth, always pondering if your MF rig should deserve more attention and what to do with it. My prediction is, that with the money you can generate now by selling it, in a couple of years you will be able to afford something that is equal or better.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I hold group therapy sessions every Thursday night for gear sluts anonymous.
    The problem is you get a hell of a lot worse than you get better.
    Once that demon has caught you, you simply can't escape, I know, I know .....

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    And last but not least: Why do you use MF???
    All cameras and systems are compromises.

    As far as my own compromises are concerned rangefinders were simply non-starters and technical cameras just got in my way. The last thing I want to think about when making images is equipment.

    My current MF system is a compromise but it's the best compromise I could find.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I donít want to go too far off topic and I also donít want to make this ďall about meĒ but at the same time Iíd like to offer some clarification so here goes.

    Jack & I had a conversation a month or so ago about what heís written about regarding the comparison of the M9 and H-39. It gave me pause then I started thinking that so far as of today thereís simply no 35mm on the current market that can effectively compete with medium format. Sandy has a 1DsIII and while the IQ is outstanding I can still nevertheless spot the difference (9 out of 10 times) in images between hers and mine with the WRS/P45+. My personal hope is that the M9 will offer the same level as the 1DsIII but on a much smaller scale. Just the thought of carrying a camera with say a 50mm attached as well as a 35mm and 75 or 90mm stuffed in my pants just makes me giddy.

    Okay now for more of the story about what I call my battered body syndrome. 30 years ago I suffered a head on car crash that left me with almost every bone on my left side broken. I healed as best I could; to the point I later became an Air Marshall which required very rigorous training. Prior to the accident I was also shot in the chest that caused some minor discomfort. All this was to the left side of my body and my partner for what ever the reason always wanted to be on my right side figuring it was safer there. Anyway for the past 30 some years (I turn 62 next month) Iíve been in pain of some sort or another and have learned to live with it. Iím far form disabled (unless you count my mental state) and still live a very active life.

    Iím just at that stage of life where I no longer (and not because I physically canít) want to load several lenses, the WRS, filters and tripod along with close to a gallon of water and go off hiking in search of the ďimageĒ. I want to start working smarter (never too late to try). If I know of an area that I want to return to with MF then Iíll do it; if on the other hand thereís an area Iíve never been to say Horseshoe Canyon or hiking down into the South Rim and see Havasu Falls then I want that small kick *** system I mention earlier. Then if I decide I just have to do it all over gain with MF then Iíll at least have an idea of the focal length I need and par down the overall weight of the MF gear.

    I couldnít agree more with Jackís conclusion that itís a freeing uplifting feeling to be down to two systems. I had that very same feeling after I sold the645 body and Mamiya lenses. I was on the verge of selling my 1DsII as it was just sitting there not being used since Alaska when I decided to have it converted to IR. While Iím glade I did I still donít see that as a viable system but more than a current novelty that may in time be sold off. So until I get the M9 I still have one system to rely on for my landscape needs.

    I also see this as a partial answer to Tomís original post. Keep using both thinking the M9 as a complementary system to your medium format gear.

    Oh and regarding AF Ė I stopped using AF over a year ago after getting the WRS. Iím about as fully manual a shooter as you can find. Iíve used ranger finders in the past and donít see me having a major problem using them again however itís the subject matter that counts and for me itís landscape and not people or street shooting.

    ď-Who thinks that Medium Format does work for subjects other than exterieurs/interieurs and shots from parking lots of national parks as well as studio shooting? This is not meant critically but I am really trying to find out what makes sense and what does not.Ē Iíve taken long walks lasting several hours and many miles with my WRS and tripod so the answer (if I understand the question correctly) is I do. Medium format can be and is used in all types of situations from inside to outside. The only caveat is that I havenít seen a MF system that can be as weather proofed as a dSLR.

    "And last but not least: Why do you use MF???" The gorgeous files it gives me. The color, the tones, the mood, the detail. I know that I can take a single image and print large. I also know that if I take several images and merge them into a pano I can print that sucker huge (which is also the reason I love using a technical camera).

    Guy Ė Thanks bud Iíll look into that. I currently use a Lowepro backpack that works well so long as I try not to take everything with me including the kitchen sink.

    One last thought Ė therapy only works if you think thereís something wrong. Me, Iím a gear slut and proud of it! Guy, maybe the sessions need to be on contacting your inner gear slut self and letting go!

    Sorry, this turned out longer than what I expected so for the lengthÖ

    Don
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
    Blog
    Tucson AZ

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I currently use a Lowepro backpack that works well so long as I try not to take everything with me...

    Don[/FONT]
    Don,

    Lowepro makes a dual backpack beltpack called the Orion....it separates half way up so that you can omit the backpack upper part if desired. For short trips the beltpack is great...carry a sweater and a couple of Cliff bars in the upper part if you are out for a longer hike...all of the weight would be supported on your hips.

    Bob
    Last edited by docmoore; 24th January 2010 at 13:12.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Again thanks for the thoughts and experience and I do appreciate the help.

    Maybe I have made one mistake and tried to use the MF-gear for some part for things which are not its strength, maybe I should just use the MF gear for mostly static subjects and when I have a lot of time and otherwise just use the M9. Maybe I have used my MF gear to often without a tripod and maybe I just have expected too much from medium format AF (I do like the Hy6 for many reasons but the AF is clearly not great even for MF standards-maybe the AF of my Hy6 is even defective as much as it hunts).
    Accepting the weak points of the systems maybe helps me to avoid more frustration.
    Besides the AF I do see exposure metering and image review as weak points.

    i will try to get a plan for what occasions I will use which system and avoid the more intuitive way I handled it before ("lets see-which camera do we take today)
    Like M9 for long distance travel, familiy, casual and MF mainly for landscape and tripod shooting.

    I think I also want to do 1 or 2 more comparison sessions to really compare what MF delievers and the M9 does not (I did 1 comparison but it suffered from focus error and therefore the Hy6 images were not really sharp).
    The general rendering of the Dalsa-sensor in my back as well as the rendering of the Schneider lenses are very much to my taste.

    Last not least I might size down the number of lenses I have for the Hy6.

    In any case I will "give it a chance" for some time - and then make the decision if I still need/want MF or not.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    t_streng,
    I think that some people really value the image quality that is possible under the right circumstances with MFD. It is what is important and paramount to them. Others value a system which look perceptibly good at smaller outputs, still others want mobility above all else. All in all you have to find what really makes you happy outside of internet forums where people make small differences seem like the War of 1812.

    Asking other people's opinions is good but just understand that they only see things from their perspective. If money was absolutely no object we might be able to answer questions honestly. But the sheer fact that MFD costs so much makes the images it produces look so much better. For you it sounds like the cost of MFD is making the images NOT look so much better. See how perception is playing a roll here?

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I am in the same boat. I really like the images and i have gotten a few great ones that i am so glad i had my Hasselblad with me. WIth limited time to shoot and even during a landscape with fast changing light, getting the right spot is sometimes a bit of luck. I find that without the IS and high iso, and to really take advantage of the great detail, a tripod is essential. Sometimes i feel i miss some opportunities because of the increased time to set up.
    So i am torn about selling or upgrading and exclusively going back to 35mm DSLRs.
    I just cannot decide. M

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    This is a familiar issue to me as well. 2 cents worth:

    Originally, MF was a midway point between LF ad 35 mm, offering close to the convenience of 35 mm, but with enough film size to get a significant quality difference, more akin to 4x5. Not exactly fast, not exactly slow, somewhere inbetween.

    I for one loved that - and carrying a TLR or MF SLR gear was worth the specialness. If it was a long day, the TLR was the way to go.

    Now, with the digital backs, the whole equation is turned a bit goofy: the image quality of the smaller cameras (Leica for example) is much higher, and hard to resist. The carrying of a MF camera with a back is tedious all day, if not hard, and we're all getting older. So why MF digital?

    The first reason is quality and control. I have a Phase 20 back on Rollei gear, and it has changed the way I shoot; not nec. for the better, just different. The camera is happiest on a tripod, and is the finest, fastest studio camera. I get great composition and wonderful files.

    Out and about is less flexible: it needs good light, but takes wonderful shots. I can carry it around for a couple of hours, but not easily all day. Would a Hy6 be better? Yes, but the Sinar back is still a bit large - the Leaf is better.

    The reality for me is that I still like the MF shooting experience: more control with the WLF, better composition, more keepers. That said, the M8 still gets most of the use, but as aligning the camera parallel to the picture surface remains so hard (and easier with WLF and MF), I'd rather have the MF setup.

    Thus, I'm stuck on this one. Laying out massive cash for the sheer pleasure (expedience) of a better finder and better control is a bit silly. On the other hand, it does matter, albeit only for that and maybe the occaisional super large print. Otherwise, its hard to argue for it.

    Still, I love the older stuff and those big lenses. But I went to shoot a building being wrecked this weekend and put four lenses in four coat pockets with the M8. Hard to argue with that!

    Geoff

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I believe we agree that the IQ gap between MF and 35mm becomes smaller and smaller, plus some feautures of smaller cameras/systems get more and more advanced. Thinks like lifeview on the display, compensation for focus-errors per lens in DSLRS, advanced matrix metering, better lenses (like the new T/S lenses from Canon - anybody read the comparison from Rainer V. between the Artec and the new Canon T/S? )

    The gap becoming smaller makes it more difficult to decide if one justifies/needs/wants MF or not.

    Than there are other points besides IQ like viewfinder/ different handling etc. which come to my mind and which are a very personal thing.

    Plus third thing is price and price development.

    In the end it can also be a big different if it is used for hobby or for a pro.
    If I had to shoot professionally and knew I have a) enough time for a session and b) the necessary infrastructure (to get the equipment where it is needed at the point of time it is needed and c) get paid for this in a propper way MF could make more sense than for someone with a "normal" job who has max. 6 weeks vacation per year, and spends those with family etc.

    It is hard for me to tell my family that we leave the rubber boat at home so that I can bring my Artec and Hy6-system (even though I bring more photo-equipment with me than others would expect, at least as long as we travel by car and not by plane)
    And vacation and weekends are the main times where I have the chance to take more time for photography and get to places which I would like to photograph.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Obviously you've bought MFD because of the file quality but maybe not because you wanted to gain a certain size of your prints.
    I have to admit that I like the crisp look of MFD files (or maybe files of cameras lacking an AA filter). Still I think nearly all the DSLRs (and, of course, an M9) provide files with high bit depth, clean blacks etc. as well so that with regard to the achievable IQ the advantage of MFD is minor. IMO.
    The advantage is more obvious if you print large (i.e. larger that 100% of the native file size). If you print really big there's no way around MFD (unless you want to stitch all the time. Or, based on film, 8x10).

    But ... I think your problem is not gear related. My reading is that you actually don't have (and don't take) the time for photography (as you suggest).
    Of course you can make a nice landscape snapshot while you go for a walk with your family. Or a nice panorama shot while you are hiking.
    But in the first case your main interest is to spend time with your family and in the second case your main interest is hiking. In both cases photography is just an additional interest. In both cases the gear can't be easy to carry and easy to use enough. In both cases all that gear troubles you. In both cases the chance to be unsatisfied with the photographs you've shot is extremely high.
    If you take the time - at least once in a while - to make photography your main interest and give it the time and concentration it requires and deserves ... I think then you will evaluate the gear completely different. It may very well be the case that even then your M9 turns out to be the preferred tool for you. That's fine then.

    As to your particular gear: I think you decided for an outfit based on the fascination for the gear alone. But not based on your needs.
    The Hy6 body, the Sinar back and the Rollei lenses are very bulky. In comparision e.g. a Contax 645 looks (and is) tiny.
    The arTec is a very specialized tool and the core of its concept is the integrated sliding back. Which adds to the weight. The Cambo WRS, a Silvestri (or the like) are much lighter and much easier to carry.
    Still... I think the gear is not really the problem...

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Perhaps a little different perspective:

    In 100 years nothing has really changed has it?

    If anything, with film it was/is even more time consuming than it is with digital capture ... especially when it comes to view cameras.

    Either you have the inclination for it, even a driving passion, or you don't. Trouble is, unless you shoot for a living, the urge can come and go.

    What seems to trigger a crisis of confidence is perhaps the shadow looming over digital capture that promises to make it less than the next best thing just over the horizon.

    What I mean is, that with film, you bought a Hasselblad 500 V camera and Zeiss lenses and kept it for 20 years of more. You might let it sit for a time and come back to it when the bug bit you again. You didn't worry, it was no big deal ... it delivered when you were ready. I'd sometimes let my Hassey V sit for a couple of years and then suddenly my passion for MF would be rekindled.

    Personally, I believe that this last wave of higher meg, more feature laden Medium Format offerings has arrived at that point. Perhaps the reason that experienced photographers like Guy and Jack now do most all of their serious work with one MFD system. If I didn't shoot weddings I probably would do the same thing.

    While others can say the gap between other formats and MF is closing ... it isn't even with-in a mile of being closed IMO. It was just that the Gap was so incredibly huge before. I don't mistake nice files from the M9, 1DsMKIII, D3X, or my Current Sony A900 as being anywhere in the same league as my Medium Format digital machine ... even with a 8X10 print ... let alone for some of the critical commercial work I do.

    Frankly, I found that there is something profoundly disappointing about the IQ of everything else once you use a MFD ... or course that is IF IQ is what floats your boat.

    -Marc

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    You can send your Hy6 in for a calibration by Sinar and you will see a great improvement - otherwise my Sinar set is just one of 4 or is 5 or six MF systems I have collected for no better reason than I like the stuff.

    Sometimes it is just best to admit to fetishes. th epoepl i dont understand are thoe who dont care about the camera just the print - this is weird very weird..to me anyway .. aprint is a different thing to a camera and its lenses.

    a print can b made by anycamera..

    my cameras arent any cameras they are my cameras.

    -

  32. #32
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Sometimes it is just best to admit to fetishes
    Pete, believe me, I've got plenty of fetishes, but cameras ain't one of 'em

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    You can send your Hy6 in for a calibration by Sinar and you will see a great improvement..
    DId you experience this? Maybe my AF is really just faulty. (it just does lock bad and needs forever and you never know if it has locked now in the right position or not)
    I think I might add another thread to discuss Hy6 gear and see if my problems are normal or not.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    In 100 years nothing has really changed has it?
    Exactly. When it comes to imaging, more real-estate is still better.

    While others can say the gap between other formats and MF is closing ... it isn't even with-in a mile of being closed IMO. It was just that the Gap was so incredibly huge before. I don't mistake nice files from the M9, 1DsMKIII, D3X, or my Current Sony A900 as being anywhere in the same league as my Medium Format digital machine ... even with a 8X10 print ... let alone for some of the critical commercial work I do.

    Frankly, I found that there is something profoundly disappointing about the IQ of everything else once you use a MFD ... or course that is IF IQ is what floats your boat.

    -Marc
    Couldn't agree more Marc.
    ~~~

    Tom wrote,
    I believe we agree that the IQ gap between MF and 35mm becomes smaller and smaller,
    I think I need to clarify my perspective. Personally, *I* do not agree with this, and perhaps didn't make it very clear in my above responses. I said something like that from a net file detail standpoint, an M9 or Pro DSLR 2x stitch compares head-to-head with a single 39MP MF frame capture. So stated another way, I am saying a single frame from an M9 or Pro DSLR is basically *HALF* as detailed as a 39MP MF capture(!) I also said that the DR, hue and tonality were superior from MF, and that the current M9 and Pro DSLR really can't compete IMO.

    This does not take away form the size, convenience, form factor, speed and feature sets of contemporary high-end DSLRs. They clearly have significant benefits and features that make them attractive or even superior choices for many photographic venues. So when it comes to obtaining ultimate file quality regardless of features, going bigger is still going to deliver the best results. But it is a choice that requires paying a cost in both additional time and money.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    But ... I think your problem is not gear related. My reading is that you actually don't have (and don't take) the time for photography (as you suggest).
    Of course you can make a nice landscape snapshot while you go for a walk with your family. Or a nice panorama shot while you are hiking.
    But in the first case your main interest is to spend time with your family and in the second case your main interest is hiking. In both cases photography is just an additional interest. In both cases the gear can't be easy to carry and easy to use enough. In both cases all that gear troubles you. In both cases the chance to be unsatisfied with the photographs you've shot is extremely high.
    Thats a good comment and I agree for some part. I need to take time JUST for photography here and then.
    The other thing is that hiking does often get me to beautiful places and let me experiecne beautiful light.
    One approach is to go photograph, go to find a beautiful scene/light/moment.
    The other approach is that if you are outside a lot you sometimes have luck to see very special places/moments/light and then you want to "shoot"/catch that moment.
    But the most beautiful places for me were often not in reach of a parking lot but maybe up on a mountain/ close to a glacier etc etc.
    But again- I really agree that I could/should go more often out with the main focus of photography and not with the idea to combine activity and photography.

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    ....
    As to your particular gear: I think you decided for an outfit based on the fascination for the gear alone. But not based on your needs.
    The Hy6 body, the Sinar back and the Rollei lenses are very bulky. In comparision e.g. a Contax 645 looks (and is) tiny.
    My decision was based on
    a) my wish for a big/bright/interchangable viewfinder
    b) in the beginning I just focused on maybe 2-3 smaller/lighter lenses like the 40/80/150 (but later I got inclined by the "monster-lenses" 110/2.0 and 180/2.8)
    c) The 75LV is the back which was the best compromise IMO regarding noise-sensor size-flexibility (no micro lenses)-and price
    d) if using WLF the rotating back made a lot of sense to me
    e) I liked the rendering of the dalsa sensor as well as that of the Schneider lenses
    f) I thought I would use fill flash more oftne but actually I dodnt so far

    The decision for the Artec was driven by the thought that specially for doing T/S plus for focus accurancy a ground glass would really make sense (and I still believe it does). The Artec is not really heavy - the draw back is that you cant handhold it and it is wider.
    As soon as you do use a griundglass the Artec should be much easier to use than a comparable camera.
    On the other side I admit that sometimes a Alpa TC like camera would be fine as well- one does not allways has to use T/S and sometimes infinity focus is all you need.

    I agree that the idea to have a very portable system would have directed against central shutter system like Mamiya or Contax.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Jack and Marc - while I have never question that there is a difference in IQ specially regarding tonality/color gradiations you guys make me suspicious if this difference is maybe bigger than I feel right now.

    This encourages me even more to give it a try and to optimize my MF-photography and workflow.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ....
    What I mean is, that with film, you bought a Hasselblad 500 V camera and Zeiss lenses and kept it for 20 years of more. You might let it sit for a time and come back to it when the bug bit you again. You didn't worry, it was no big deal ... it delivered when you were ready. I'd sometimes let my Hassey V sit for a couple of years and then suddenly my passion for MF would be rekindled.

    ....
    -Marc
    I also agree here - today and with the price development you (I should say I) do sometimes feel if I dont use some equipment much (now) than I should sell it better today than tomorrow before it has lost all its value.

    Like a d3x - if you dont use it much better sell before they anounce the d3xII or the D900 or whatever....silly game.
    I am glad it is different for lenses.

  38. #38
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I also agree here - today and with the price development you (I should say I) do sometimes feel if I dont use some equipment much (now) than I should sell it better today than tomorrow before it has lost all its value.

    Like a d3x - if you dont use it much better sell before they anounce the d3xII or the D900 or whatever....silly game.
    I am glad it is different for lenses.
    Well, it is even true for lenses, as Nikon rebuilt their complete lens lineup over the past years and one better sold before the new lenses were announced

    Anyway, I agree that we are all in the same boat, as soon as you do not use a digital camera very often, it is better to sell immediately, before they announce the new model. I currently feel like that WRT my A900 and I felt the same about my M8 some 6 months ago before I sold it alread with lot of loss.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    This is one of the most enjoyable threads to read; there are so many facets and interlinks. There are many good personal thoughts already posted so here is another one for you and I hope you find it well.

    We all learn to walk with similar mechanics but each one of us must walk our own path. Forums and community in its purest form, provides us with great insights from personal experience and story to help us making the "right" decision. The decision we make is very important and it has a long lasting effect. I can go on with my story but I will cut it to the point.

    1. We cannot compare apple, orange and etc.; pick one or eat them all.

    2. Pick the right lens for each of the system; it makes a significant difference in your view of the system.

    3. Make sure that the technical error is not the unknown factor that makes you want to sell your system; in this case it appears to be your auto focus with the Hy6 camera. Perhaps your camera has front focusing issue which is known to be with the new firmware update. Personally I like the square format camera the most despite some issues. I spent a long time to select the right Hy6 for myself and my friends and peers. I use this camera lot in manual and auto focus with the revolving adapter thanks to the 6x6 format. I do not have to add another hand grip to my camera in order to shoot in portrait mode in addition with the L bracket which all result in much more weight. Even in portrait mode, the Hy6 still allows you to use the waist level finder which has significantly less weight than the prism. Thus overall, the Hy6 camera is not very heavy by itself and with the film back, this camera is very light weight. The digital back alone is where the weight is added and some of the Rollei lens also add the heavy weights. Some of the Rollei lens are very light weight especially the new AFD lens compare to the manual focus lens for example, the SA 2.8/50. Weights is not always bad, in fact it can help to dampen the vibrations. In fact, the heavy Rollei lens can help the mirror vibration due to the strong slap of the mirror on the Rollei 600x camera. The Sinar Hy6 has another advantage; it is its optics. I find the Rollei lens to offer extremely rich in colors and the resolution on some of its lens is not only sharp but it covers from corner to corner. For example, the 180 AFD lens is sharp to the corners especially with the 60 megapixels back. I have tested the Rollei lens with the P65+ and have some preliminary data. In addition, the lens that I tested has no color cast as compare to the Hasselblad Zeiss 180mm lens. Also the bokeh of the Rollei lens is unique in medium format. In a time when folks move away from the Sinar/Rollei system I actually grew closer to my systems. It is for these reasons, I have bought 2 more systems in additional to my Sinar Hy6 to use my Rollei lens, Leaf AFi 7 with Aptus 75 and Alpa 12XY systems. Talk about weights the Alpa 12XY + The Rollei 55 PCS lens is very heavy but you can also see how crisp the image is due to better vibration control even on a small tripod that can handle the weights.

    4. External influence factors vs. internal search; here experience is the best teacher.

    5. I look at different systems and formats as integration and not overlap of my setup. For example, I soon will shoot my Sinar eMotion 75LV with my new Canon TS-E 17mm and 24mm lens. No need of the Hartblei camera.

    6. The forces within us compete with each other from time to time. There is no war but only battles to win within ourselves.

    Best Regards,
    Son
    Last edited by PSon; 25th January 2010 at 10:26.

  40. #40
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Wow Son,
    I just feel like you sold me my own system another time
    This forum is great and I sometimes wish we all would live closer together since normally I prefer direct communication over internet.

    2 questions: Does your Hy6 focus without hunting forth and back before locking? And how good does camera metering work for you? In my case I have to dial in anything between +.3 up to +1.5 and more sometimes still get underexposed images.

    Just to make clear - I am also a person who tries to make his own experiences and own opinion but sometimes it really helps to exchange thoughts and experiences from other people/photographers. Plus its interesting to see if others make comparable experiences (and to make sure one is not on the path to getting crazy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    This is one of the most enjoyable threads to read; there are so many facets and interlinks. There are many good personal thoughts already posted so here is another one for you and I hope you find it well.

    We all learn to walk with similar mechanics but each one of us must walk our own path. Forums and community in its purest form, provides us with great insights from personal experience and story to help us making the "right" decision. The decision we make is very important and it has a long lasting effect. I can go on with my story but I will cut it to the point.

    1. We cannot compare apple, orange and etc.; pick one or eat them all.

    2. Pick the right lens for each of the system; it makes a significant difference in your view of the system.

    3. Make sure that the technical error is not the unknown factor that makes you want to sell your system; in this case it appears to be your auto focus with the Hy6 camera. Perhaps your camera has front focusing issue which is known to be with the new firmware update. Personally I like the square format camera the most despite some issues. I spent a long time to select the right Hy6 for myself and my friends and peers. I use this camera lot in manual and auto focus with the revolving adapter thanks to the 6x6 format. I do not have to add another hand grip to my camera in order to shoot in portrait mode in addition with the L bracket which all result in much more weight. Even in portrait mode, the Hy6 still allows you to use the waist level finder which has significantly less weight than the prism. Thus overall, the Hy6 camera is not very heavy by itself and with the film back, this camera is very light weight. The digital back alone is where the weight is added and some of the Rollei lens also add the heavy weights. Some of the Rollei lens are very light weight especially the new AFD lens compare to the manual focus lens for example, the SA 2.8/50. Weights is not always bad, in fact it can help to dampen the vibrations. In fact, the heavy Rollei lens can help the mirror vibration due to the strong slap of the mirror on the Rollei 600x camera. The Sinar Hy6 has another advantage; it is its optics. I find the Rollei lens to offer extremely rich in colors and the resolution on some of its lens is not only sharp but it covers from corner to corner. For example, the 180 AFD lens is sharp to the corners especially with the 60 megapixels back. I have tested the Rollei lens with the P65+ and have some preliminary data. In addition, the lens that I tested has no color cast as compare to the Hasselblad Zeiss 180mm lens. Also the bokeh of the Rollei lens is unique in medium format. In a time when folks move away from the Sinar/Rollei system I actually grew closer to my systems. It is for these reasons, I have bought 2 more systems in additional to my Sinar Hy6 to use my Rollei lens, Leaf AFi 7 with Aptus 75 and Alpa 12XY systems. Talk about weights the Alpa 12XY + The Rollei 55 PCS lens is very heavy but you can also see how crisp the image is due to better vibration control even on a small tripod that can handle the weights.

    4. External influence factors vs. internal search; here experience is the best teacher.

    5. I look at different systems and formats as integration and not overlap of my setup. For example, I soon will shoot my Sinar eMotion 75LV with my new Canon TS-E 17mm and 24mm lens. No need of the Hartblei camera.

    6. The forces within us compete with each other from time to time. There is no war but only battles to win within ourselves.

    Best Regards,
    Son

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    th epoepl i dont understand are thoe who dont care about the camera just the print
    the final print is the target. The camera is just a link in the chain of tools to create that target.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    While others can say the gap between other formats and MF is closing ... it isn't even with-in a mile of being closed IMO. It was just that the Gap was so incredibly huge before. I don't mistake nice files from the M9, 1DsMKIII, D3X, or my Current Sony A900 as being anywhere in the same league as my Medium Format digital machine ... even with a 8X10 print ... let alone for some of the critical commercial work I do.

    Frankly, I found that there is something profoundly disappointing about the IQ of everything else once you use a MFD ... or course that is IF IQ is what floats your boat.
    this is why me personally I added a P21+ alongside with my P45 instead of an A900 and some lenses.
    To a limited extend I agree with you. Still... at base ISO the A900 with good glass (and there are some very good Minolta/Sony/Zeiss lenses) is not "nowhere near" a P21+. There is a difference. Of course. And it's obvious enough for me to take a P21+ over a A900 (beside other factors). But it's not a world of a difference. At least not with regard to every motif.

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    this is why me personally I added a P21+ alongside with my P45 instead of an A900 and some lenses.
    To a limited extend I agree with you. Still... at base ISO the A900 with good glass (and there are some very good Minolta/Sony/Zeiss lenses) is not "nowhere near" a P21+. There is a difference. Of course. And it's obvious enough for me to take a P21+ over a A900 (beside other factors). But it's not a world of a difference. At least not with regard to every motif.
    Agreed it's "not a world apart" if the comparison is to the highest end, full frame, 25 meg current model of one ... and a crop frame, 18 meg discontinued model of the other. Still, the dynamic range and 16 bit color shows up when compared to a 12 bit A900 ... so, as you say, there is still an obvious enough difference as far as IQ is concerned.

    Generally, I think of current MFD as the comparison point to current 35mm DSLRs ... and it's these more recent models that I feel are "there" in terms of a longer range ownership ... except in the case of Guy where "long range" isn't part of his vocabulary.

    -Marc

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Extended warranties are a complete waste of money.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Agreed it's "not a world apart" if the comparison is to the highest end, full frame, 25 meg current model of one ... and a crop frame, 18 meg discontinued model of the other. Still, the dynamic range and 16 bit color shows up when compared to a 12 bit A900 ... so, as you say, there is still an obvious enough difference as far as IQ is concerned.
    true... the comparision is not really balanced. However it's almost the same with a 35mm crop of the P45 (which is also not up to date but at base ISO still amazingly good).
    I'm a bit unsure about the 16bit as I thought MF files are actually 14bit (they just blow up the data to 16bit). I think it's the mature interplay of sensor data, firm- and software that adds to IQ more than 14 (or even 12) bit versus 16bit. Besides in Photoshop we are working with 15bit in any case ...
    Anyway... obviously 35mm is so good that many, many phantastic photographers can make wonderful images out of it (not only from an "aesthetically" but also from a "technically" standpoint).

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Extended warranties are a complete waste of money.
    Anything past 120 days can be a lifetime
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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Wow Son,
    I just feel like you sold me my own system another time
    Me too

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    2 questions: Does your Hy6 focus without hunting forth and back before locking? And how good does camera metering work for you? In my case I have to dial in anything between +.3 up to +1.5 and more sometimes still get underexposed images.
    My Hy6 focuses adequately in good light but in low light it can certainly hunt for focus. At it's best it doesn't compare to my Nikon D3 or the Canon pro bodies I've used in the past. I find the ability to manually focus varies widely from lens to lens. With the Rollei 110 f/2 Planar, for example, the image just pops into focus. I do not have metering problems with my copy of the Hy6, either with the prism or WLF. However, when I open the image in eXposure it appears to be underexposed as it's quite dark. This is easily adjusted in post (I use Lightroom these days) after the RAW files are converted in eXposure. Are you certain you're not assuming the files are underexposed because they show up dark?? By way of comparison, when I switch to the Contax 645 platform I have had significant exposure problems when using the WLF, but none while using the prism. I think it was Son who suggested that this was attributable to light leaking into the WLF. No such metering problems when shooting with WLF on the Hassy 203FE and, as far as the ability to manually focus, this is far and away the brightest and easiest to focus camera I've owned... and there's been a bunch

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    The forces within us compete with each other from time to time. There is no war but only battles to win within ourselves.
    Best Regards,
    Son
    Son,
    I always read your posts and find them insightful and extremely informative. Having said that, I suspect you got this one from a fortune cookie

    (After posting this it occurred to me that some readers might not know that Son and I are extremely good friends, which is why I feel I can take this liberty)
    Last edited by David K; 25th January 2010 at 17:11. Reason: Clarification

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    Re: Why do you use MF? or: I am in the MF crisis...

    I have not 'personally' experienced the improved focus after sending in to Sinar for a CLA. However i person I know very well and trust has - he also happens to be the Sinar dealer here in Australia.

    I will be sending the camera to him with back to be on sent to Sinar - when I get the chance..so will report back in due course. teh reason I havent bothered is that I only have one autofocus lens. and bought into Rollie mount for the old style manual focus lenses..

    Son - you sound like you have been busy- gmail me about your new systems!

    pete

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