Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

[Woody Campbell]

I would appreciate it if someone could weigh in on the pros and cons of Dalsa vs. Kodak chips. The context is this: I've got an order in to trade up to an H4D. The question is will the 50 meg (Kodak) or the 60 meg (Dalsa) back work better for my shooting style. The 60 meg back becomes 50 with the two HCD lenses, which negates a good part of the size difference.

Thanks.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Woody I can only go by the Phase kit but when I went from the P30+ to the P40+ i picked up better DR by about a half a stop. I also picked up noise advantage on the higher ISO. Also the Kodaks are a little more saturated in color and tone and the Dalsa seems to have a better color tonal range. The falloff from color to color seems smoother. Also I like skin tones better on the Dalsa. Now I like the Kodak sensors a lot but I am really liking the look from the Dalsa. We can do a little side by side on the workshop coming up and Jack and I can show you a couple things on the Dalsa we seem to like. Obviously you also have a newer tech. in the new Dalsa your looking at over the 39 you have . In the end you may really like the Dalsa look and actually for you with aM9 you could have two systems that have some separation in look. Now it's a subtle look do and not like miles apart either but maybe the best word to use on the Dalsa is it seems more subtle in look. Maybe less smack in your face over the Kodak.

 

[David K]

Guy,
Do you think there's anything you can get with the Dalsa that you can't get with the Kodak with a bit of post processing.

 

[Jack]

This one is tough to quantify, but I definitely see a difference. Keep in mind I went from P45+ to P65+, so cannot comment directly if the experience with Hassy would be the same, but I am convinced it is a trait of the sensor, not the in-camera processing. For me, what I notice most are all subtle, and could generally be summed up by saying the Dalsa files look less digital than the Kodak files, being smoother in the hue and tone transitions, all while retaining excellent inter-pixel contrast. Normally I would chalk this up to the higher resolution, but I've noticed the same thing when I compared Leaf 75s (33MP) files to my P45+, so I'm convinced it's a Dalsa trait.

I did get closer with my P45+ by upping color NR and reducing Lum NR in my raw processor, and frankly probably so close it would be tough to see in a print, but the difference is definitely still there at 100% view.

 

[routlaw]

I would appreciate it if someone could weigh in on the pros and cons of Dalsa vs. Kodak chips. The context is this: I've got an order in to trade up to an H4D. The question is will the 50 meg (Kodak) or the 60 meg (Dalsa) back work better for my shooting style. The 60 meg back becomes 50 with the two HCD lenses, which negates a good part of the size difference.

Thanks.

Woody I asked this same question recently to a Leaf rep and the answer I got was pretty much what you have heard already, smoother and less digital looking images but to that he also added color cast was far less of a problem on the Dalsa vs Kodak chip. Some people call this the Italian flag syndrome where non CCL correction has not been implemented. On tech cameras apparently you have to do some serious shifting to get this to show up with a Dalsa chip. I also asked about moire problems and was told they are about identical in this regard.

Understand I have no direct experience with either of the two new chips so take it with a grain of salt, but the comment sure got my attention and interest.

Hope this helps.

Rob

 

[Professional]

I would like to know the difference between Dalsa vs. Kodak.
If i will get that H4D-60 that coming with Dalsa sensor then i will compare it with Kodak sensor camera [but i will lose my H3DII for H4D], so i will do the test in the shop where i bought my H3DII and trade-in for H4D.

It is confusing that if one sensor brand or techn is better than the other in few things and vise versa, so if you have 2 sensors, one with 10 pros and 5 cons, and the other one with 6 pros but 2 or 1 cons, which one you will go with?

I really don't know about the highlight problem between the two, and the details and the color, and the ISO and so,... i always check my photos with any camera at 100%, what i should look at if i want to be careful and accurate?

 

[jerome]

One difference I've been told between the Kodak and the Dalsa sensors is long exposure. Kodak could be extended to 10 mn, even 50 mn. We know nothing about the 60mp, maybe 32s or 64 s on the Hassy.

That's the main drawback I see.

 

[Professional]

One difference I've been told between the Kodak and the Dalsa sensors is long exposure. Kodak could be extended to 10 mn, even 50 mn. We know nothing about the 60mp, maybe 32s or 64 s on the Hassy.

That's the main drawback I see.

I see, ok, thanks!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

In Phase the P45+ is 1 hour , P30+ ( Kodak) i have done 35minutes. P40+ and P65 + ( Dalsa) rated at 1 minute but Doug has done 2 minutes in cooler temps. Depends a lot on cooling as with any sensor. The cooler the temps the better the noise levels.

 

[Professional]

In Phase the P45+ is 1 hour , P30+ ( Kodak) i have done 35minutes. P40+ and P65 + ( Dalsa) rated at 1 minute but Doug has done 2 minutes in cooler temps. Depends a lot on cooling as with any sensor. The cooler the temps the better the noise levels.

Again, good info to know.
Too bad that we use Hasselblad integrated system, so no Phase One.

 

[Jack]

Yes, the two other well-documented differences between the two that offset are: Kodak can do long exposures up to 60 minutes, or even longer in cold climates, where Dalsa is limited to 60 seconds or so. The Dalsa shows far less color shift when used with tech cameras and lens movements -- in many cases with a simple shift and tilt you do not even need to correct for Dalsa, when you almost always need to correct for Kodak. In my recent test of the Cambo RS with TS 40 Digiron, I shot an LCC frame but never bothered to use it for the posted images as only it changed the gravel in the lower left by 1 point of magenta. This thread: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13238

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Hassy H39 I think is only 1 minute, not sure. Hassy is not known for the long exposure backs but I read somewhere it maybe possible. David or Nick would certainly know more on the Hassy side of the house. I'm using the Phase as a a comparison so you know what each sensor is capable of but this has to do with software and/or firmware as well and how they are setup. So Hassy even though they use the same basic sensor in the 39 as the P45+ they have different times on long exposures. Let the Hassy folks give you some definitive answers here for sure. I don't know the Hassy systems as well so I can only give a guideline.

 

[Ebe]

This year I went from the P30 to the P40+.
Picked up better DR by about a half a stop.
The Dalsa files are less digital looking than the Kodak (Smoother ).
Skin tones better on the Dalsa.
For me, these differences were not subtle, very easy to see.
I love the P40+ and Dalsa Chip.

PS: Like 'Guy' I sometimes also use the Sensor+,
and have almost retired the DSLR

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Nice too hear this Kurt from someone else than me.LOL

the P40 is the best deal going in my book. Only slight bias there. LOL

 

[thomas]

The Dalsa shows far less color shift when used with tech cameras and lens movements

The P65+ shot of Capture Integration posted on their site (comparision with P40+ and P45+) clearly shows color shift.
It's obvioulsy less color shift - but as you have to make LCCs in any case I wouldn't rate this as a real difference. LCC in Capture One works extremely well with the Kodak Sensors.

 

[Jack]

Joe Holmes gives an excellent description of the differences re color shift here: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

I am speaking from personal experience with both backs on a tech camera, and again, when only using minor movements the Dalsa is enough better than the Kodak that most of the time, you don't need the LCC. But you are correct, it's easy to take and even easier to have C1 apply it, so there's not much argument for not doing it, other than laziness

Here is a visual graphic that explains the off-axis color shift:

 

[Woody Campbell]

One of the surprising (to me) aspects of the Hassy 39 is pretty good highlight recovery - a stop or maybe a bit more in Phocus. Experience with the Dalsa chip?

 

[Woody Campbell]

Joe Holmes gives an excellent description of the differences re color shift here: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

I am speaking from personal experience with both backs on a tech camera, and again, when only using minor movements the Dalsa is enough better than the Kodak that most of the time, you don't need the LCC. But you are correct, it's easy to take and even easier to have C1 apply it, so there's not much argument for not doing it, other than laziness

Here is a visual graphic that explains the off-axis color shift:

Thanks for the reminder on the Joe Holmes article - it's an amazing (and sobering) resource. There's not much chance that my technique will live up to these cameras!

 

[thomas]

it's easy to take and even easier to have C1 apply it, so there's not much argument for not doing it, other than laziness

if you don't have to take one when you don't use movements that's certainly no drawback
However I'd look at the actual LCC shot to see how much color shift there is.
I can't extract the actual LCC shots from those EIP files unfortunately but I'd say with the 35XL there is color shift inside the unshifted image area (admittedly just little compared to the Kodak).
Looking at these b/w comparisions of the LCC shots it seems that the Dalsa sensors are a bit more prone to light falloff:

 

[Jack]

One of the surprising (to me) aspects of the Hassy 39 is pretty good highlight recovery - a stop or maybe a bit more in Phocus. Experience with the Dalsa chip?

Hi Woody,

Again, I can only speak to C1 and the Phase backs, but I would say about identical -- IOW both/either are excellent in this regard. If you're not in any hurry, then you can experiment with my files and yours in Salton Sea...