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Thread: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    I would appreciate it if someone could weigh in on the pros and cons of Dalsa vs. Kodak chips. The context is this: I've got an order in to trade up to an H4D. The question is will the 50 meg (Kodak) or the 60 meg (Dalsa) back work better for my shooting style. The 60 meg back becomes 50 with the two HCD lenses, which negates a good part of the size difference.

    Thanks.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Woody I can only go by the Phase kit but when I went from the P30+ to the P40+ i picked up better DR by about a half a stop. I also picked up noise advantage on the higher ISO. Also the Kodaks are a little more saturated in color and tone and the Dalsa seems to have a better color tonal range. The falloff from color to color seems smoother. Also I like skin tones better on the Dalsa. Now I like the Kodak sensors a lot but I am really liking the look from the Dalsa. We can do a little side by side on the workshop coming up and Jack and I can show you a couple things on the Dalsa we seem to like. Obviously you also have a newer tech. in the new Dalsa your looking at over the 39 you have . In the end you may really like the Dalsa look and actually for you with aM9 you could have two systems that have some separation in look. Now it's a subtle look do and not like miles apart either but maybe the best word to use on the Dalsa is it seems more subtle in look. Maybe less smack in your face over the Kodak.
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Guy,
    Do you think there's anything you can get with the Dalsa that you can't get with the Kodak with a bit of post processing.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    This one is tough to quantify, but I definitely see a difference. Keep in mind I went from P45+ to P65+, so cannot comment directly if the experience with Hassy would be the same, but I am convinced it is a trait of the sensor, not the in-camera processing. For me, what I notice most are all subtle, and could generally be summed up by saying the Dalsa files look less digital than the Kodak files, being smoother in the hue and tone transitions, all while retaining excellent inter-pixel contrast. Normally I would chalk this up to the higher resolution, but I've noticed the same thing when I compared Leaf 75s (33MP) files to my P45+, so I'm convinced it's a Dalsa trait.

    I did get closer with my P45+ by upping color NR and reducing Lum NR in my raw processor, and frankly probably so close it would be tough to see in a print, but the difference is definitely still there at 100% view.
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    Senior Member routlaw's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    I would appreciate it if someone could weigh in on the pros and cons of Dalsa vs. Kodak chips. The context is this: I've got an order in to trade up to an H4D. The question is will the 50 meg (Kodak) or the 60 meg (Dalsa) back work better for my shooting style. The 60 meg back becomes 50 with the two HCD lenses, which negates a good part of the size difference.

    Thanks.
    Woody I asked this same question recently to a Leaf rep and the answer I got was pretty much what you have heard already, smoother and less digital looking images but to that he also added color cast was far less of a problem on the Dalsa vs Kodak chip. Some people call this the Italian flag syndrome where non CCL correction has not been implemented. On tech cameras apparently you have to do some serious shifting to get this to show up with a Dalsa chip. I also asked about moire problems and was told they are about identical in this regard.

    Understand I have no direct experience with either of the two new chips so take it with a grain of salt, but the comment sure got my attention and interest.

    Hope this helps.

    Rob

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    I would like to know the difference between Dalsa vs. Kodak.
    If i will get that H4D-60 that coming with Dalsa sensor then i will compare it with Kodak sensor camera [but i will lose my H3DII for H4D], so i will do the test in the shop where i bought my H3DII and trade-in for H4D.

    It is confusing that if one sensor brand or techn is better than the other in few things and vise versa, so if you have 2 sensors, one with 10 pros and 5 cons, and the other one with 6 pros but 2 or 1 cons, which one you will go with?

    I really don't know about the highlight problem between the two, and the details and the color, and the ISO and so,... i always check my photos with any camera at 100%, what i should look at if i want to be careful and accurate?

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    One difference I've been told between the Kodak and the Dalsa sensors is long exposure. Kodak could be extended to 10 mn, even 50 mn. We know nothing about the 60mp, maybe 32s or 64 s on the Hassy.

    That's the main drawback I see.

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome View Post
    One difference I've been told between the Kodak and the Dalsa sensors is long exposure. Kodak could be extended to 10 mn, even 50 mn. We know nothing about the 60mp, maybe 32s or 64 s on the Hassy.

    That's the main drawback I see.
    I see, ok, thanks!

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    In Phase the P45+ is 1 hour , P30+ ( Kodak) i have done 35minutes. P40+ and P65 + ( Dalsa) rated at 1 minute but Doug has done 2 minutes in cooler temps. Depends a lot on cooling as with any sensor. The cooler the temps the better the noise levels.
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    In Phase the P45+ is 1 hour , P30+ ( Kodak) i have done 35minutes. P40+ and P65 + ( Dalsa) rated at 1 minute but Doug has done 2 minutes in cooler temps. Depends a lot on cooling as with any sensor. The cooler the temps the better the noise levels.
    Again, good info to know.
    Too bad that we use Hasselblad integrated system, so no Phase One.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Yes, the two other well-documented differences between the two that offset are: Kodak can do long exposures up to 60 minutes, or even longer in cold climates, where Dalsa is limited to 60 seconds or so. The Dalsa shows far less color shift when used with tech cameras and lens movements -- in many cases with a simple shift and tilt you do not even need to correct for Dalsa, when you almost always need to correct for Kodak. In my recent test of the Cambo RS with TS 40 Digiron, I shot an LCC frame but never bothered to use it for the posted images as only it changed the gravel in the lower left by 1 point of magenta. This thread: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13238
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Hassy H39 I think is only 1 minute, not sure. Hassy is not known for the long exposure backs but I read somewhere it maybe possible. David or Nick would certainly know more on the Hassy side of the house. I'm using the Phase as a a comparison so you know what each sensor is capable of but this has to do with software and/or firmware as well and how they are setup. So Hassy even though they use the same basic sensor in the 39 as the P45+ they have different times on long exposures. Let the Hassy folks give you some definitive answers here for sure. I don't know the Hassy systems as well so I can only give a guideline.
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    This year I went from the P30 to the P40+.
    Picked up better DR by about a half a stop.
    The Dalsa files are less digital looking than the Kodak (Smoother ).
    Skin tones better on the Dalsa.
    For me, these differences were not subtle, very easy to see.
    I love the P40+ and Dalsa Chip.

    PS: Like 'Guy' I sometimes also use the Sensor+,
    and have almost retired the DSLR

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Nice too hear this Kurt from someone else than me.LOL

    the P40 is the best deal going in my book. Only slight bias there. LOL
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The Dalsa shows far less color shift when used with tech cameras and lens movements
    The P65+ shot of Capture Integration posted on their site (comparision with P40+ and P45+) clearly shows color shift.
    It's obvioulsy less color shift - but as you have to make LCCs in any case I wouldn't rate this as a real difference. LCC in Capture One works extremely well with the Kodak Sensors.

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Joe Holmes gives an excellent description of the differences re color shift here: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-med...precision.html

    I am speaking from personal experience with both backs on a tech camera, and again, when only using minor movements the Dalsa is enough better than the Kodak that most of the time, you don't need the LCC. But you are correct, it's easy to take and even easier to have C1 apply it, so there's not much argument for not doing it, other than laziness

    Here is a visual graphic that explains the off-axis color shift:

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    One of the surprising (to me) aspects of the Hassy 39 is pretty good highlight recovery - a stop or maybe a bit more in Phocus. Experience with the Dalsa chip?

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    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Joe Holmes gives an excellent description of the differences re color shift here: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-med...precision.html

    I am speaking from personal experience with both backs on a tech camera, and again, when only using minor movements the Dalsa is enough better than the Kodak that most of the time, you don't need the LCC. But you are correct, it's easy to take and even easier to have C1 apply it, so there's not much argument for not doing it, other than laziness

    Here is a visual graphic that explains the off-axis color shift:

    Thanks for the reminder on the Joe Holmes article - it's an amazing (and sobering) resource. There's not much chance that my technique will live up to these cameras!

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    it's easy to take and even easier to have C1 apply it, so there's not much argument for not doing it, other than laziness
    if you don't have to take one when you don't use movements that's certainly no drawback :-)
    However I'd look at the actual LCC shot to see how much color shift there is.
    I can't extract the actual LCC shots from those EIP files unfortunately but I'd say with the 35XL there is color shift inside the unshifted image area (admittedly just little compared to the Kodak).
    Looking at these b/w comparisions of the LCC shots it seems that the Dalsa sensors are a bit more prone to light falloff:

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    One of the surprising (to me) aspects of the Hassy 39 is pretty good highlight recovery - a stop or maybe a bit more in Phocus. Experience with the Dalsa chip?
    Hi Woody,

    Again, I can only speak to C1 and the Phase backs, but I would say about identical -- IOW both/either are excellent in this regard. If you're not in any hurry, then you can experiment with my files and yours in Salton Sea...
    Jack
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    i find that i tend to prefer the overall look of images took with an Aptus 22 and digital lenses at 25 iso... and limited in long exposure !
    So, for whom who had that type of back previously, when you are using your new back, what are the Big plus except ISO and long exposure over the Aptus 22 ?

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Perhaps one area that has not been discussed is Dalsa's ability to handle fall-off (luminance and focus) better due to the pixels' active area seating closer together.

    This is mostly visible if both are tested on a tech WA camera with some shift at the same f-stop and reason why some architecture photographer choose Dalsa over Kodak.

    Yair

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Perhaps one area that has not been discussed is Dalsa's ability to handle fall-off (luminance and focus) better due to the pixels' active area seating closer together.
    Yair, I'm a bit confused... are you referring to Dalsa vs. Kodak in general or to Dalsa with 6micron sensors vs. Kodak with 6.8micron sensors?
    If you are referring to the latter: it would be new to me that a higher pixel count (on the same image area) produces better sharpness at the edges - I always thought it's exactly the other way around. In the case that a lens resloves perfectly for both pixel "sizes" the smaller pixel pitch has of course an edge as the same image area produces higher resolution.
    From my experience: on a 9micron chip sharpness falloff is less obvious than on a 6.8micron chip with the same lens.
    Or did I get you completely wrong?
    Thanks!

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    I have struggled off and on for a few years to find specific technical details on the differences between a Kodak CCD and the similar Dalsa CCD without much success. All I've ever been able to glean aside from the well flushing and power differences is that the Dalsa design is indeed thinner and the photo-sensitive silicon layer is closer to the top of the well; and that while they both use a bayer filter, the design of the Dalsa is different than Kodak's.

    Shallower wells mean less cosine falloff and tunnel shading as the angle of incidence increases, and this would at least in part support the results I see of less color shift and fall-off effects when used on a tech camera.

    As for the Bayer filter, I've never been able to get any concrete specifics. I've found allusions to the effect that the Dalsa filter uses less dense colors in their filter, but I suspect that was based on somebody seeing one and making a casual visual comparison. I can only suspect that the Kodak is using GRBG and Dalsa is perhaps using RGGB or even CYGM as an alternative (which would look less dense on casual comparison), but have no evidence. My empirical data suggests the Bayer matrix is indeed different though, as for whatever reason profiling cannot seem to generate an identical color response across the visible spectrum between both sensors. Finally, Bayer worked for Kodak when the GRGB and RGGB matrix was patented, so again, another possible reason for the CYGM assumption for Dalsa. So basically all I can say is I have a strong hunch that Dalsa uses a CYGM pattern in lieu of one of the traditional primary Bayer patterns.

    One thing is for certain, all this will change as the newer panchromatic filtered sensors make their way into MF capture...
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    I have not been too much into the technical side - which backs have which sensors - to keep in mind when I upgrade?

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Yair, I'm a bit confused... are you referring to Dalsa vs. Kodak in general or to Dalsa with 6micron sensors vs. Kodak with 6.8micron sensors?
    If you are referring to the latter: it would be new to me that a higher pixel count (on the same image area) produces better sharpness at the edges - I always thought it's exactly the other way around. In the case that a lens resloves perfectly for both pixel "sizes" the smaller pixel pitch has of course an edge as the same image area produces higher resolution.
    From my experience: on a 9micron chip sharpness falloff is less obvious than on a 6.8micron chip with the same lens.
    Or did I get you completely wrong?
    Thanks!
    9 Vs 9
    6.8 Vs 7.2
    6 Vs 6

    Kodak's wells are deeper (as Jack describes) and use "gutters" for light "overflow" whereas Dalsa's are shallower with no gutters (overflow goes through the thinner silicon layer). Closer wells help to improve falloff control and produce a slightly sharper image overall.
    If I'm not mistaken most if not all Bayer sensors use RGGB pattern.

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Jack + Yair - thank you!

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    I've been debating this one myself for some time Woody, and haven't fully decided yet.

    The 60 is tempting, but one point that I haven't decided on yet is that the H4D/50's native ISO is 50 where the H4D/60's is 100. Sounds like a small issue, but having used a Leaf Shutter H camera with an ISO 100 base (H3D-II/31), there were times I wished for 50 ... and ISO 50 is what I always use in the studio with strobes. Both top out at ISO 800 and have the same capture rate.

    With the newest version of Phocus and the latest firmware, the H3D-II/39 can do 64 second exposures. Hassey lists the H4D/50 at 32 seconds ... and it remains to be seen if they goose that up like they did with the 39 recently. Hassey hasn't published the long exposure specs for the H4D/60 yet (that I can find).

    BTW, I don't think use of the HCD lenses reduces the 60 to 50 ... the crop factor is minimal as I understand it, and I'd guess the 60 becomes a 55 or so (that would be splitting the difference between the two sensor sizes). No clue how the edge performance will be with the HCD lenses, but I'd suspect DAC corrections for some of it if there are correctable issues.

    I haven't used the later versions of a Dalsa sensor ... my last experience was with my 33 meg Leaf Aptus 75s. So it is hard to comment on. I do know that the Hassey 50 has received good reviews compared to the Kodak 39 in terms of cleaner, more natural color rendition and great skin tones, so it's hard to use any Phase experiences here because there is no Phase One 50 if I'm not mistaken.

    What recently caught my eye is that Hassey included the H4D/50 Multi-Shot in their trade Program ... which is only $3,000. more compared to trading a H3D/39 for a H4D/60. That, more than anything is where my debate lies since a H4D/50 Multi Shot is probably the highest IQ camera they make for certain applications ... while still providing single shot 50 capture.

    -Marc

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    I'm not a Hassy guy, but it sounds like a no-brainer to me -- the crop is virtually insignificant and 50MP is not a whole lot different than 60. But what is really different is having multi-shot when you want it -- the enhanced results there are real. ISO 50's a plus too...

    My off-the-cuff thinking...
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    I like having ISO 50 now. It really comes in handy when you need to get some slow shutters for shooting water and such. That extra stop in speed can make all the difference sometimes. Multi shot is certainly nothing to sneeze at. For product work WOW
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Thanks you two ... it makes it even harder to ponder with that input.

    I've toyed with the notion of MS for a long time ... and most of the Shooters that I hired as an Art Director (that used Hassey) used Multishot in studio.

    Amazingly MS virtually eliminated any post work especially with fabrics and such ... I do a fair amount of Bread & Butter studio jobs like that (fabric samples for automotive companies to use for dealer sample charts and catalogs) ... and lots of wheels. Not as easy to shoot as it sounds ... trust me.

    Like this 3" fabric sample and a super close up crop of it ... or this "bitch to shoot" chrome wheel which is as shot with no retouching yet except to knock out the background ... Both done with the 39.

    50/MS would capture these even better and provide for cleaner, more subtile detail.

    I'm talking myself into this ...

    -Marc

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Nice job on the wheel --- but I found your (or an assistant's) reflection in it!
    Jack
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Let's play "Where's Waldo?"

    Couldn't be my assistant Jack ... they've slashed prices paid to the bone, so I have to do these by myself.

    -Marc

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    I would also like to point out that the H4D50 uses a Kodak TRUESENSE CCD which is a totally different design and architecture to the earlier Kodak CCDs.

    Most users who have upgraded from 39>50mp are always very complimentary of the improvements they see in the look of the sensor.

    Mostly, tonality, highlights, shadows, colour rendition. It is really a delightful sensor to use, photographically.

    David

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    David so what's new the clock is stuck on 18 hours with a question mark. Can you speak now or still on hold.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Ill be back at 1801pm, CET.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Thanks David always nice to have the Hassy folks here keeping us updated on the latest stuff. I'm a big proponent of the whole industry at large regardless of what I shoot. Actually I may wipe the name off mine and rename it Mr.Gear Slut. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Thanks Guy! Also, I have just been downstairs and rewound the clock, so its back up and running.

  39. #39
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    LOL . I'm sure you had to wind the springs as well to make it in the proper time. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Indeed!

    As I mentioned in the other thread, the H4D40 is a Kodak TRUESENSE CCD, based on the 50MP architecture, plus microlenses giving extra sensitivity. Its a really nice combination.

    David

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Interesting announcement

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Agree and in Hassy camp may have just changed the game. I think a very interesting announcement.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks you two ... it makes it even harder to ponder with that input.

    I've toyed with the notion of MS for a long time ... and most of the Shooters that I hired as an Art Director (that used Hassey) used Multishot in studio.

    Amazingly MS virtually eliminated any post work especially with fabrics and such ... I do a fair amount of Bread & Butter studio jobs like that (fabric samples for automotive companies to use for dealer sample charts and catalogs) ... and lots of wheels. Not as easy to shoot as it sounds ... trust me.

    Like this 3" fabric sample and a super close up crop of it ... or this "bitch to shoot" chrome wheel which is as shot with no retouching yet except to knock out the background ... Both done with the 39.

    50/MS would capture these even better and provide for cleaner, more subtile detail.

    I'm talking myself into this ...

    -Marc

    Join the club, I am convincing myself of exactly the same. I have been able to refrain myself sofar.

    Multishot is a no-brainer for anything that is not moving and has fabric. I certainly would go for the 50ms.

    Nice detail BTW, I am working on getting a 22MS Dalsa back to work. I wonder how that will compare to my 39MS Kodak back.

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    Nice detail BTW, I am working on getting a 22MS Dalsa back to work. I wonder how that will compare to my 39MS Kodak back.
    Yep, we are in the same boat lol

    But, I think you can shoot Multi shot only tethered, don't we ? And I don't see any availability of a H4D50MS or this version will be available with the H4D50 ?

    Long exposure, multi shot (if not tethered available), 50 iso are strong arguments for the H4D50MS ...

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    I saw H4D-50MS in an event here in Dubai last week, i was there also to see the H4D-50 and i have few shots from that camera but at ISO 100, i liked the idea of that H4D/H3D MS, but it is dedicated mostly for still life and it is more expensive than normal body [non MS].

  47. #47
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    but it is dedicated mostly for still life and it is more expensive than normal body [non MS].
    I thought MS mode is an option, and it behaves just like the non-MS version in standard mode -- is that not the case??? I would hope it is selectable, and frankly be surprised if it wasn't...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  48. #48
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    It is selectable

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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    Thanks for clarifying that Dave, it really made no sense it was a dedicated MS back!
    Jack
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  50. #50
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    Re: Dalsa vs. Kodak chips

    No probs!

    That is the great thing about it. 1 shot and 4 shot together. So you have all the benefits of a portable camera, shooting to CF and then the ultimate studio camera.

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