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Thread: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

  1. #51
    Senior Member routlaw's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    ...I would give the HR Digirons a very slight nudge over the Schneider for pure resolution on a 6 micron sensor, but I doubt you'll see any difference on a 9 micron senor and probably not even see it on a 6.8 sensor. Moreover, I tend to prefer the rendering of the Schneider's as they tend to be just a bit smoother. So it's choose your poison: tad better resolution, and a tad harsh rendering (Rodie HR APO), or a tad less resolution and a tad smoother rendering (Schneider APO) -- but we're talking very subtle differences here. Image circle then comes into play too, ...
    Interesting comments on the difference between the two lens companies Jack. And based upon my experience using the D3 (also 9 micron sensor) combined with the Cambo Ultima LF view camera its quite feasible to use regular 4x5 lenses rather than the more expensive digital counterparts whose image circle is reduced substantially. Awhile back I set up the above system comparing my Rody 105 digital to the 90/6.8, Super Symmar 120 APO, and of course the Rody 135 Sironar S. With the D3 the Rody 105 digital was only marginally better than my 120 or 90 mm and a close call with the 135 Sironar S. Nothing to get excited about in any of the comparisons.

    So taking a back such as the Leaf II-5 on a tech camera and given the huge amount of stitching capabilities (if you are so inclined) with 4x5 lenses more than offsets what minor differences there are with the digital lens on a 9 micron sensor. Add to that the digital lenses are optimized for only F8-F11 where as the 4x5 lenses are optimized (lens dependent) anywhere from F11-F22 and a tech camera or view camera system like this for landscape work among other things starts looking very compelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    Rob,
    you rock thanks for all your help.
    I guess I need to decide now on whether to go MF SLR like a Contax or go tech view camera, On my D3x, I use shift all the time for composition as opposed to tilting the camera up or down, and sometimes use tilt for DOF. If I go MF SLR like the contax then I pretty much loose shift all together, unless I buy a used Hartblie 47mm lens.
    I assume I would "have" to buy a arca cube then also or..
    go tech view

    Can't decide which way to go
    I guess I should do some more test shots with my D3x and compare doing shifts as opposed to just tilting the camera up and down for composition

    I attached a shot I took while in Hawaii with my D3x and 85mm PCE lens probably with 3-4mm of shift

    Steven
    Nice photograph Steven, makes me jealous, just spent the morning shoveling snow again. Hawaii is sounding pretty good right now.

    Are you aware that you can rearrange the shift/tilt setup on these lenses. Have not done it myself but have heard of many others doing this with great success. Might solve some of your decisions.

    I don't have the 45 PC-E lens but do use the 85 and 24 PC constantly, in fact on my trip to Zion in Nov those were the only two lenses I used, often stitching files together with the front shift capabilities, works great even though stitching is not my preferred method of visualizing a scene.

    For sure if you end up going (either in the short term or long term) with just a basic MF camera like the Contax, Hassy, or Mamiya you will eventually have to focus blend to get your DOF on landscape work.

    Rob

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Rob,

    I actually sent my 24mm PC-E into Nikon 5 months ago for the modification and I just sent in my 45 and 85mm PC-E lens for the modification also. So all 3 of my PCE's will operate the same way.

    I think if I do decide to go MF I will go with a tech view that has both **** and tilt. Not into doing focus blending in PP. I already spend to much time as is to get something looking half decent.

    Yeah Hawaii was nice for 4 months. Just got back to Arizona the other day.
    I have tons of photos I need to go through from Hawaii now. Lots of fun :-)

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    I think if I do decide to go MF I will go with a tech view that has both **** and tilt.
    I am guessing you forgot an 'f' there
    Carsten - Website

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    opps sorry about that
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    You can do both. I've had the 25 45 and 65 Phase backs and used with both Contax 645 and Alpa TC with Contax mount.
    use the 35mm and 47mm SK lenses and they are spectacular!
    I do not find I need lens correction either. (but its there if you really need it) The P65+ is esp good in not needing, and the P25 was easy to fix.

    Victor

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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    kuau:

    Two additional points:
    - do not confuse "live view" (as you know it from your Nikon) with "live preview" of digital backs (which is working tethered only). Forget about checking focus on the LCD of a digital back (except, maybe, the latest Sinar back,I don't know ... which won't work with movements anyway).
    - if you want a replacement for your Nikon & TS lenses kit and that style of work you would look for a tech camera providing movements, not for one without

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    After doing some serious soul searching, as much as I would like to go tech view, at the end of the day knowing my own ADD I don't have the patience to shoot Tech view.
    I like to move around a lot get different angles with a tech camera this would never work.
    So now I am back to MF SLR either Contax 645, Hasselblad h1/h2 with either a P25+ back or the new leaf aptus II 5 back, or I see the prices keep dropping in the H3d -II 39
    any opinions on the H3DII 39 and then I guess I would eventually get the HTS 1.5 t/s adaptor

    oh yeah last option keep with what I got

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    After doing some serious soul searching, as much as I would like to go tech view, at the end of the day knowing my own ADD I don't have the patience to shoot Tech view.
    I like to move around a lot get different angles with a tech camera this would never work.
    So now I am back to MF SLR either Contax 645, Hasselblad h1/h2 with either a P25+ back or the new leaf aptus II 5 back, or I see the prices keep dropping in the H3d -II 39
    any opinions on the H3DII 39 and then I guess I would eventually get the HTS 1.5 t/s adaptor

    oh yeah last option keep with what I got

    Steven

    Steven:

    While I am glad that the newest Phase One camera doesn't have to take a backseat to the Hasselblad H any longer in terms of auto focus and all around performance, it should be noted that you can use the HTS 1.5 T/S adapter with any Phase One digital back on a Hasselblad H2 camera, which can be found very reasonably on the 2nd hand market, even though it is discontinued.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Steve,
    Thanks for all your input.
    What about an H1 with a P25+ back? I think the only problem is if I go h1/h2 this locks me out of using the 28mm HC lens which seems to be the "must have" lens
    or am I incorrect?

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    HD-2F I think can handle the 28mm. There is a used P25+ on the forum. It was actually my original back. Not sure it still is for sale though
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Guy your the man... I wish I could go on the next workshop but I am getting married March 6th in Telluride, Co.

    What is your take on pixel size of the P25+ vs P45+ how does it translate into the actual prints I will do at 20x30? Do I really need 39mp or will 22mp do the trick?

    Steven
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post

    So now I am back to MF SLR either Contax 645, Hasselblad h1/h2 with either a P25+ back or the new leaf aptus II 5 back, or I see the prices keep dropping in the H3d -II 39
    any opinions on the H3DII 39 and then I guess I would eventually get the HTS 1.5 t/s adaptor

    oh yeah last option keep with what I got

    Steven
    Steven nothing wrong with what you got as long as you can be satisfied with less quality than the 22 mp backs. But more importantly, are you aware the HTS 1.5 has a focal length multiplier effect which I believe is 1.5, meaning a 50 mm lens becomes a 75 and so on. Achieving true wide angle with this device might be impossible... unless you stitch frames. And it cost more than most tech cameras.

    Hope this helps.

    Rob

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Rob
    This whole quality issue to me seems like 22mp looks way better to me then my D3x and the shooting style using MF is almost the same as shooting my D3x accept no Live View.

    I was thinking about the 28m HC lens, without any tilt or shift, only use tilt/shift for longer focal length. I would shoot the 28mm like I shoot my nikon 14-24 just tilt it down.

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    Guy your the man... I wish I could go on the next workshop but I am getting married March 6th in Telluride, Co.

    What is your take on pixel size of the P25+ vs P45+ how does it translate into the actual prints I will do at 20x30? Do I really need 39mp or will 22mp do the trick?

    Steven
    The 25 is damn good but at 20x30 between the two you will see some detail advantage but not earth shattering. The P45 has a little more DR as well but something to be said with 9 micron sensors. It's also a money issue, almost double.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The 25 is damn good but at 20x30 between the two you will see some detail advantage but not earth shattering.
    at this print size the difference between 22MP MFD and the D3x is much bigger than the difference between 39MP MFD and 22MP MFD.

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Thomas and Guy thanks for your input. I put an email into Hasselblad to see what the story is with the 28mm HC lens.

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Just for clarification:

    The Hasselblad H2F will not take a Phase One back. It will take any Hasselblad CF or CF-II or CF/CF-II Multishot digital back ... and the HTS can be used on the H2F as well as the 28 HCD and 35-90 HCD Digital Lenses. The H2F also accepts H film backs.

    A H1 or H2 camera with a Phase One, Leaf, or Sinar back will not provide use of the 28 HCD, 35-90 HCD nor the HTS with all of the digital corrections built into the Phocus software.

    These lenses and T/S device require integrated communications between the camera, back and lens ... which are available from the H2F, H3D on up ... and maybe (not sure) a H2D with current firmware updates (H2D means it is an integrated Hasselblad back and can't use any other digital back).

    H1, H2, H2Ds and H3Ds can take film backs, H3D-IIs and H4Ds cannot.

    There are more differences between a H2 with a 22 meg back than just meg count. H3D-II/39 cameras use different electronics, cooling, an improved sensor filter and more integrated ergonomic functionality, a much larger and clearer LCD ... and take more advantage of the software functions ... and the 28 HCD, 35-90 HCD and HTS can be fully used on the H3D/H3D-II cameras. The differences when fully realized with DAC corrections in Phocus are quite apparent.

    All this info is available on the Hasselblad web site under products ... spec sheet PDFs including some discontinued products.

    -Marc

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    at this print size the difference between 22MP MFD and the D3x is much bigger than the difference between 39MP MFD and 22MP MFD.
    Yes, but I actually found going from 25 (22MP) to 45(39MP) brought me a LOT more than the Kodak (16MP) to 25 (22MP).

    Althought hasselblad is certain a great system, as are all, I wonder why the over interest in the 28? In circumstances where I needed more view, stitch brings so much more flexibility.

    Thus, a Phase (or Leaf or Sinar) back and a Contax or Phamyia body would seem to allow much more flexibility. In fact I would concentrate on

    back Resolution
    GLASS
    and then body.

    Both Contax and PM with get you AF, and both take all the Hasselblad V glass. The 45+ or 40+ is where you may find the sweet spot for resolution, and then with Contax or Phase you will have more options.

    I hate to say it, but at current prices (an 45mm Contax under $500!) the C645 is almost a 'disposable system' from your point of view. On the other hand, with a Phase body you have the promise of Schneider Kreutznach glass on the horizon (and here!)

    If you want to migrate or extend to view camera, the C and PM are much easier.

    BTW, have you had a chance to TRY any of this stuff? Tools are very personal things as you will hear many of the folk here say.

    In any case, you will have (even with HB) a terrific step up from 35mm DSLR and then you can concentrate on image making.

    Regards
    Victor

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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    In "kuau's" case price wise (in relation to the quality) a Contax is a no brainer actually (eihter way with Phase, Leaf or Sinar back).
    But if movements on a 645 camera are an issue... the HTS is the only way to go.
    As all the systems deliver incredible quality the HTS might be the decisice accessory...

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Steve got to shoot a bunch of the Phase backs on the AZ workshop with tech and Phase body. So he has used them quite effectively actually and got some really nice shots to boot. It really is a tough decision , none of these backs suck. They all produce great images regardless of camera, glass or back. Just need to find the right combination that feels good. I know Steve liked the Tech cams , so immediately even if you don't go straight there to start keep whatever purchase you make available down the road to work on them.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Guy, Thomas,Victor and Marc, I know they will all produce excellent results.
    It all comes down to $$$$$
    I am for sure going to buy used as the prices are dropping quickly.
    I guess I just have to decide how important T/S is to me and looks like Hassy has the only solution as of today without going tech camera.
    or am I missing something.

    Steven
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    Guy, Thomas,Victor and Marc, I know they will all produce excellent results.
    It all comes down to $$$$$
    I am for sure going to buy used as the prices are dropping quickly.
    I guess I just have to decide how important T/S is to me and looks like Hassy has the only solution as of today without going tech camera.
    or am I missing something.

    Steven
    No, you are not missing something and I would call even the Hassy as an expensive compromise.

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    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Well, depending on your demands, the Hartblei 45mm is quite good (my copy anyway, and I can send some example) and the only other option, which isnt so crazy is from Zoerk

    http://www.zoerk.com/pages/p_pshift.htm

    They make one for Manyia (phase) and Contax mounts. If I needed T/S that's what I would do

    and BTW, you said the 45mm was too wide; that's ok, if you can stand the crop (and the 39MP will get you about 1.3 and the crop fACTOR OF THE P45+ is 1.1, I think so you will have the equivalent of a 70mm or so lens.)

    Anything more than "normal" seems of less use T/S (and then, you can use perspective fix in PHotoshop)

    Victor
    Last edited by gogopix; 8th February 2010 at 15:21.

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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Well, depending on your demands, the Hartblei 45mm is quite good (my copy anyway, and I can send some example) and the only other option, which isnt so crazy is from Zoerk

    http://www.zoerk.com/pages/p_pshift.htm

    They make one for Manyia (phase) and Contax mounts. If I needed T/S that's what I would do

    and BTW, you said the 45mm was too wide; that's ok, if you can stand the crop (and the 39MP will get you about 1.3 and the crop fACTOR OF THE P45+ is 1.1, I think so you will have the equivalent of a 70mm or so lens.)

    Anything more than "normal" seems of less use T/S (and then, you can use perspective fix in PHotoshop)

    Victor
    What 39 meg digital back has a 1.3 crop factor, or did I not understand what you were saying?

    Perspective fix in Photoshop distorts and smears pixels and degrades IQ ... and it sure won't correct DOF issues like tilt does. T/S is an invaluable tool for both correcting perspective and increasing DOF ... or as a creative tool for selective focus.

    I'm using a Rollie Xact for studio work with a digital back ... but I'm talking myself into a HTS because I can use it with the H/C 28, 35, 50, 80, and 100/2.2 ... the 100/2.2 is what really interests me for selective focus portraits ... a 155/3.5 T/S lens that focuses to 3 feet! The 28 would be a 45/6.3 that focus as close as 1.28 feet out to infinity ... love to try that and use tilt to blur the background on a wide angle close up.

    The Hassey site says that the HC 150, 210 and 300 will fit the HTS adapter, but handling and performance can be compromised. Heck, I'd give a whirl just to see what happens ... with a portrait who cares if the edges go soft or something.

    -Marc

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    I love using shift all the time on all my t/s lenses for composition I set up my D3x level then I just use the tilt to get it just the way I want. I don't do much stitching.
    When shooting my Nikon 24mm PC-E I really don't need to tilt for DOF just shoot at f11 and I am pretty happy, but... when I use my 45 and 85mm to get the foreground in focus I use some tilt and that does the job.
    So I assume the 35mm HC is like a 24mm in 35mm world, the 80mm is like a 50mm, and the 120mm is like 85mm am I close?
    So I would like to have tilt on the 80 and 120mm HC lenses. Oops I forgot about the 1.5 X when using the HTS 1.5 so the 28mm becomes 42mm, the 35mm becomes 52mm so I would probably pass on the 35mm HC lens and get the 50mm HC and the 80mm then I would have a starting place. It sounds good I need to go out and rent this stuff. I wish there was a place in AZ that had this stuff.
    Does the H3DII-22 use a 9 micron pixel like the P25+

    Steven
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    I love using shift all the time on all my t/s lenses for composition I set up my D3x level then I just use the tilt to get it just the way I want. I don't do much stitching.
    When shooting my Nikon 24mm PC-E I really don't need to tilt for DOF just shoot at f11 and I am pretty happy, but... when I use my 45 and 85mm to get the foreground in focus I use some tilt and that does the job.
    So I assume the 35mm HC is like a 24mm in 35mm world, the 80mm is like a 50mm, and the 120mm is like 85mm am I close?
    So I would like to have tilt on the 80 and 120mm HC lenses. Oops I forgot about the 1.5 X when using the HTS 1.5 so the 28mm becomes 42mm, the 35mm becomes 52mm so I would probably pass on the 35mm HC lens and get the 50mm HC and the 80mm then I would have a starting place. It sounds good I need to go out and rent this stuff. I wish there was a place in AZ that had this stuff.
    Does the H3DII-22 use a 9 micron pixel like the P25+

    Steven
    Yes, the H3D-II/22 uses 9 micron pixels. It is a good choice if affordable because of all the improvements. It is the last of the 22 meg H cameras.

    Hasselblad has a certified pre-owned H3D-22 with no lens for under $8,000. comes with a warranty. Can't hurt to make them an offer.

    One reason to use tilt even with wide lenses is to avoid defraction caused by stopping down to much ... tilt can often help utilize the sweet spot in aperture while maintaining DOF.

    I just noticed that the HTS/1.5 can also be used with all the extension tubes (H13, H26, H52), for some very close work.

    Your calculations are a small amount off. Attached is the web site location with 12 pages of information on the HTS 1.5 in detail.

    http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1...tasheet_v6.pdf

    -Marc

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Nice thing on Hassy and Phase is trade up programs. So when you want to move up there maybe something you can do and still maintain your lens system.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  28. #78
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    I just found a new H3DII-22 for 7995.00 with 1 year warranty body only is this a good deal or just "ok"
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Sounds pretty good to me . But let the Hassy folks answer it better
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    I just found a new H3DII-22 for 7995.00 with 1 year warranty body only is this a good deal or just "ok"
    Not bad considering that Hasselblad wants the same price for a H3D/22 with no lens and a 6 month warranty. The H3D-II is simply a better all around camera ... and a one year warranty beats the usual 3 or 6 months.

    Ask the seller how many actuations on the back just to be safe.

    -Marc

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    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

    Marc, sounds like you are the resident Hassy expert around here in IYHO what are the "must have" HC lenses?
    oh yeah and on used HC lenses how many actuations is considered a lot for these lenses

    thanks
    steven

    btw 100% brand new 0 actuations on the back
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

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