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Thread: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

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    News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Some remarks from Alpa on sliding backs and helical mounts

    http://www.alpa.ch/en/news/2010/some...tml?year=&num=

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    a bit rude for a trade mark that is supposed to be top class, insn't it ?

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    I agree archivue. I was a bit taken back by some of the posted statements. I thought I was reading a hissy fit here and there. I happen to enjoy using my Kapture sliding back and it does the job I need it to do. I would like to own an Alpa, but until there is a more precise and quick way to focus with one other than guesstimating, I will hold off.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    I agree archivue. I was a bit taken back by some of the posted statements. I thought I was reading a hissy fit here and there. I happen to enjoy using my Kapture sliding back and it does the job I need it to do. I would like to own an Alpa, but until there is a more precise and quick way to focus with one other than guesstimating, I will hold off.
    +1

    I love my Kapture Group sliding back mounted on a Rollie Xact-II. I'd be there all day doing a commercial job if it weren't for the quick workflow made possible with a sliding back.

    Taking a digital back on-and-off to focus/compose on a ground glass is just asking for it to be eventually dropped, or to scratch the sensor filter (which I did once).

    -Marc

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    I heard that Sinar builds the Artec in different versions but not with adapters i order to achieve a high precission.
    I have used my Artec that much yet but so far all my images have been focused quite well even when shooting at f4.0
    Regarding dust-I can allways get the back off and on so I dont see any disadvantages but rather advantage that I dont have to get it off if I dont feel I want to. No good argument at all.
    How good precission will be over the years I can not say yet.

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    How good precission will be over the years I can not say yet... and, do you think that removing the back at each pictures, won't finish in disaster in few months ?
    I've start using my Fline like this, and once i had to catch the falling back... i've bought a sliding back on the spot !

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Sinar should have made the arTec so that digi backs attach to the main body like Alpa does via a precision plate and supply shims liek it does with each digi back plate.

    It is BOLLOCKS ( for Sinar) to say one of their products can accommodate ANY camera body viva plate but NOT the arTec..

    sliding back on teh artec - I would risk buying that..

    a camera system that locks yo into just ONE BACK TYPE!!???
    thats ridiculous..and teh main reason I havent bought one - much as I really really want one.

    Alpa should make their tech cameras GROW UP and build TILT properly - AND make a sliding back - with caveats liek two year warranty only..( just in case..they happen to be right..

    give the customer what teh customer wants.

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Sinar can -as far as I know -modify a Hy6 Artec to a V Artec if necessary. So you dont bind yourself to one back forever.
    Of course it would be nicer to work with adapters. If however this would have meant to make compromises regarding stability/precission I rather have it the way it is.




    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Sinar should have made the arTec so that digi backs attach to the main body like Alpa does via a precision plate and supply shims liek it does with each digi back plate.

    It is BOLLOCKS ( for Sinar) to say one of their products can accommodate ANY camera body viva plate but NOT the arTec..

    sliding back on teh artec - I would risk buying that..

    a camera system that locks yo into just ONE BACK TYPE!!???
    thats ridiculous..and teh main reason I havent bought one - much as I really really want one.

    Alpa should make their tech cameras GROW UP and build TILT properly - AND make a sliding back - with caveats liek two year warranty only..( just in case..they happen to be right..

    give the customer what teh customer wants.

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    I heard that Sinar builds the Artec in different versions but not with adapters i order to achieve a high precission.
    maybe not adapters, but I'm sure it's not a big deal to change the camera inferface:


    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Sinar can -as far as I know -modify a Hy6 Artec to a V Artec if necessary. So you dont bind yourself to one back forever.
    Of course it would be nicer to work with adapters.
    There is the arTec "HB-V" ready to be ordered.
    If you look at the design of the camera you wonder why they do not simply offer interfaces for different camera mounts. It would be very easy to make them. Or do the Sinar and HB-V users represent the largest market?

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Well, they have clearly left the door open. I suppose designing and producing an interface costs some money, and so they would want a minimum amount of demand before starting. Initially there was also the competitive aspect of not supporting the strongest competitors (Phase One, Hasselblad H), but maybe now that is less important?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    they would want a minimum amount of demand before starting.
    without any offer they will never know if there is demand.
    The next limiting thing is that you can't use Digitars on the arTec, only Rodenstock HR (i.e. Digarons). Actually I wouldn't care - but me I'd definitely would want to use at least one Digitar: the 47XL (resp. the upcoming 43XL) due to the really large image circle.

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Guys check out This post that camera has an interchangeable plate.

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    Guys check out This post that camera has an interchangeable plate.
    Yair, many thanks!
    It's quite obvious that it works with interchangeable plates; that's how it is designed basically.
    However... who makes them? Can I order Contax Mount from Sinar in Switzerland/Germany or only form that Spanish dealer?

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Yair, many thanks!
    It's quite obvious that it works with interchangeable plates; that's how it is designed basically.
    However... who makes them? Can I order Contax Mount from Sinar in Switzerland/Germany or only form that Spanish dealer?
    I'm seeing the Spanish guys this week so I'll ask and will post back

    Yair

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I'm seeing the Spanish guys this week so I'll ask and will post back

    Yair
    great - thanks, Yair!

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    as I understood Sinar is in the process to also offer the Artec for other backs.
    In the current price list itt is allready mentioned.

    Yes, limited to Rodenstock lenses-in my case I prefer the Rodenstock for tech camera anyways-but for those who prefer Schneider a disadvantage.

    For my purpose the only disadvantage I see is that the Artec is not usable handheld.
    I wish they would additionally offer a TC-like camera which takes the Artec lenses for travel and handheld work.

    Other than that the process of using the Artec works wonderfull.
    Not only sliding adapter but also you can use the rotating back which is nice too for stitching.

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    ...yes an artec for different backs - but each artec only good for ONE back?

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ...yes an artec for different backs - but each artec only good for ONE back?
    I'm sure it's based on an interface plate. That's the same with other cameras as well - if you want to use 2 different backs on, say, on a WRS you have to buy two interfaces.

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ...yes an artec for different backs - but each artec only good for ONE back?

    I could attend an ALPA shimming workhop about two weeks ago .
    I could not believe it , but it is true . A shim of just 5/100mm or even smaller for an adjustable digital back adapter does make a big difference in sharpness of the raw image . I was very surprised , but believe me , it is true , no doubt about this .
    This in turn means , that , to obtain the maximum quality for your digital image , the tolerances for different sliding adaters and different digital back adapters play a big game .

    As the tolerances between different camera adaptions for any digital back
    are shurely different , you can not be shure to get the same raw IQ for any of your possible camera combinations with your digital back(s) .

    The magic word is : Focal flange distance .
    Using film , a 1/10mm for focal flange distance might not lead to serious
    image quality loss , but for digital WA photography it does .

    Jürgen

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ...yes an artec for different backs - but each artec only good for ONE back?
    I "only" own one back anyways-not that much of a problem for me

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    I could attend an ALPA shimming workhop about two weeks ago .
    I could not believe it , but it is true . A shim of just 5/100mm or even smaller for an adjustable digital back adapter does make a big difference in sharpness of the raw image . I was very surprised , but believe me , it is true , no doubt about this .
    ....
    The magic word is : Focal flange distance .
    Using film , a 1/10mm for focal flange distance might not lead to serious
    image quality loss , but for digital WA photography it does .

    Jürgen
    Jurgen,

    It would be interesting to see Alpa ( or someone) produce some notes on suggested. shim/test/reshim/retest/reshim/retest procedure...

    PS I agree with your observations - My Sinar back on my 205TCC doesnt make as sharp raw files as the same back on the Hy6 - shooting manual with 110/2 is my test bench....

    Pete

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    the shims system should be inside the camera back, and adjust from the phase, hassy, leaf... before leaving the factory !
    it's amazing that some people are buying such expensive devices, and have to adjust the camera because of tolerance issues !

    it looks like that there is quite a lot of user that manage to use a cambo wide RS without this shims... i'd like to read the position of capture integration staff about this !

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    it looks like that there is quite a lot of user that manage to use a cambo wide RS without this shims... i'd like to read the position of capture integration staff about this !
    I'm not one of them
    However I use a WRS and a Phase back (actually 2). No shims for the camera, no shims for the back.
    Basically, shimming the DB means that the camera unit remains unchanged. Which is good if you use different backs in different mounts (so with different interfaces) on the same camera.
    If you can't shim the DB or the camera interface you also can calibrate the lens, i.e. calibrate it to focus exactly at infinity which is technically quite easy but of course it once takes some time to do it accurately. That's what I did.
    So possibly my particular lens on my particular camera would not work very well with a DB in a different mount. However for my 2 DBs (both Contax mount) the calibration is fine and accurate. I only use my DBs so I don't care about possible trouble with DBs in another mount.
    Over time I had 5 different Phase backs with Contax mount attached on that camera. They were all accurate (with my lens calibration). So the film plane of these backs was probably the same (or at least within the neccessary tolarances). Too - as far as I can tell when focussing objects at relatively close distances - the groundglass matches the film plane (at least close enough to work with).
    So is Cambo's calibration off? Unlikely. I was at the factory when they first calibrated my lens and it was just fine on their equipment.
    I rather think this is an inherent problem with modular systems requiring such small tolerances.

    So... if you use the camera always with the same back (or backs with the same mount) adjusting the lens will do the trick.

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Despite the fact that Alpa says they will not make a camera with a sliding back, I would be intrigued if they resurrected the 12 SST, a prototype made in 2002 that had 25mm front rise and fall, 25mm horizontal shift in both directions on the back side, and a sliding back! No tilt or swing. Has anyone seen or tried one?

    Attachment 27635

    Attachment 27633

    Attachment 27634

    Attachment 27636

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    I would be intrigued if they resurrected the 12 SST... considering their remarks about sliding back, i'm not shure they will do it in a near future... but nobody knows !

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    re tolerances/shimming:
    that's quite a nice thing about the foccusing mechanism on the Arca Rm3d.
    They translate distance values in certain numeric values on their scale.
    But the logarithmical distance scaling of the lens is translated to a linear scaling.
    So once you know the variance of your back/lens on the camera for infinity you can use that offset all over the foccussing scale (so if the offset at infintiy is, say, the value 3 you can offest by that value 3 even if you focus a detail at 1,2meters distance).

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    yes, the only trouble is infinity... if you need to pass it... you can't !

    what you said, is even more valuable with focus shift problems with some lenses...

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    the only trouble is infinity... if you need to pass it... you can't !
    on the Arca, yes.
    With regular helical mount lenses it's easy to fix.

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    Re: News from Alpa - Sliding Backs and Helical Mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I'm seeing the Spanish guys this week so I'll ask and will post back
    may I come back to this? Did you ask them about the availability of different mounts on the arTec?

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