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Does it still make sense to buy a H3D-22 now?

P. Chong

Well-known member
I was foolish enough to request for a demo of the H3Dii-31 at the local dealer's, and was amazed with the quality. As mentioned elsewhere, I normally shoot Canon 1dmk3. Typical subjects are watches, portraits, a bit of architecture and landscape...though very heavy on first two.

The dealer offered a fairly interesting price for a demo H3D-22 with 6 month warranty, and I went for a quick spin with the older camera. Shooting tethered, found it to be rather good...See Fun with MF thread for a couple of pics from the session.

I am wondering if it is a good time to get into Hassy now...especially when the H4D is imminent, I am guessing the H3Dii line will be replaced. The H3D-22 is already been discontinued, though still produces very nice results. With the H4D, tradeins, etc, I figure the H3Dii will drop in prices, and perhaps may be able to pick up a H3Dii-39 or H3Dii-31 one instead of the H3D-22...or by then even the H3D-22 should drop further in price.

So the question is, is the difference between H3D and H3Dii great enough? Did anyone upgraded from i to ii? What is your experience?

Thanks.
 

thomas

New member
A provocative statement: "medium format" only comes to its full beauty when the sensor is not cropped too much.
So the 22 or 39 ...
:rolleyes:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I've had them all ... from a H2D/22 to my current H3D-II/39 ... with a H4D/60 on order.

Things to consider:

All of the 22 meg backs are older sensor technology, in fact, I believe Kodak stopped producing that sensor. However, there are advocates of 9 micron pixel pitch digital backs which produce a certain inexplicable magic. The smaller square sensor Hasselblad 16 meg CFV & CFV-II have this 9 micron pixel pitch, and produce absolutely stunning images. I also had a Leaf Aptus 22 meg back that did the same. IMO, even if 35mm DSLRs go to 30+ meg, these 22 meg digital backs will still produce better Image Quality ... because the sensor is huge in comparison, and so are the pixels. The caveat to this is dependent on subject matter. For critical work with fabrics, or intricate minute detail, there can be issues with moiré. Also, all of the Hasselblad 22 meg backs have an ISO range from 50 to 400 and have not benefited from software/firmware updates that increased the 39 meg backs to an ISO range from 50 to 800.

Differences between a H3D and H3D-II are: improved LCD from a 2.2" OLED display to a 3" TFT display, fan cooling changed to an integrated CCD cooling sink, and a new, improved sensor filter. There may have been other improvements, but some or all of them may be included with a H3D via the latest firmware updates. BTW, there also was a H3D-II/22. One thing in favor of a H3D is that it accepts film backs where the H3D-II does not ... if you favor shooting B&W film over digital B&W, this could be an important factor. Also, being able to use film acts as a back-up should the digital back go down at an inopportune time.

Again, the "magic" that 9 micron sensors seem to produce is not to be discounted. Not being a digital engineer, I personally cannot explain it ... I just accept it based on what I see.

As to price to value ratios, and the impending effect that the H4D may have on investing in anything right now ... that is solely dependent on what price was offered on the H3D/22 by the dealer. If you share that, I can be more specific with advice.

A mitigating factor is Hasselblad's recent trade-up promotion. Because of this, many H3Ds and H3D-IIs will disappear into the void after being turned in for a H4D. So the market may not become flooded with used systems at raging discounts. Why would I sell my H3D-II/39 for $13K or less, when I can get $20K in trade? Oddly, the trade values didn't distinguish between models and only used meg count. So, a H3D and H3D-II produced the same trade value.

I've attached PDFs of Hasselbalds current Preowned items for sale for comparisons, and a copy of the Hasselbald Trade-Up promotion.

-Marc
 

carstenw

Active member
Marc, it would be a bit of a hassle, but you could sell the H3DII-39, buy an H3D-39 and *then* do the trade...
 

KeithL

Well-known member
An excellent reply from Marc, as usual. FWIW I'll add my bit.

It took me over a year to find a virtually new - less than fifty clicks - H3D11-22 and once found - direct from Hasselblad - I grabbed it with both hands and paid roughly the equivalent of a new Nikon D3x. I specifically wanted the more recent model and haven't looked back; I'm delighted with the camera, system and files.

Eventually I'll probably take advantage of the trade-up promotions but for the moment I'm more than happy.

At the time there were many older H3D-22 cameras available, as indeed there are now, but my advice would be to decide which model you would really prefer and then have patience until the right offer comes along. One thing is for sure, you'll save a fortune by buying used and letting some other sucker take the depreciation hit!

Keith
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc, it would be a bit of a hassle, but you could sell the H3DII-39, buy an H3D-39 and *then* do the trade...
Thanks for the suggestion Carsten ... I had thought about doing that.

What is really a bite in the bum is that this H3D-II/39 is like brand new, has worked flawlessly from day one, and has less than 2400 shots on it ... mostly used in studio tethered to a computer where you tend not to hose off shots.

So someone trading a beater H3D/39 with 50,000 shots on it gets basically the same trade in amount as I do with a LN H3D-II/39. :wtf:

Now I did negotiate a slightly better trade value with the Hassey rep, but it's still not very equitable.

Actually, the thought I had was to see if someone with a H3D/39 just wanted to trade + some cash to get the H3D-II/39 with low mileage.

What is even worse is that any old 16 meg back on any beat-up H or V camera garners the same trade value as my H3D-II/39 toward a H4D/50 or H4D/50 Multi-Shot. :wtf::wtf:

So in that case if I could find a $5,000. kit (no lens) and trade it, I could keep the H3D-II/39 ... or sell it for a deal and be $$$ ahead.

This crap makes my head spin around and then explode. :eek:

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just a side note I had the P25+ which is actually for sale in the B&S section from Mark Saperstein but anyway back to Marc's comment on the 22mpx 9 micron sensors. I don't know what it is either but I loved the look from that back or maybe better said the 9 micron sensor.I have some thoughts on it the micro contrast detail was punchier in look and the Dr slightly less than say the new sensors today but the end result was very punchy images . Also the 9 micron sensors are very friendly to older glass. Which in essence gives you the chance to get some great quality out of some inexpensive lenses. It's a great starter system and many still shot the 9 micron because of these qualities of it. We have many threads on the P25+ and 9 micron sensors in the archives. Actually if you search my name you should find them . Okay I have over 10k in posts but they are their.

BTW the Hassy and Phase are the same Kodak sensors so it does give you a good idea what you can achieve from them.

Now the only issue you will run into is Moire so if your a fashion shooter may not be the best back shooting clothing and fabric. Also these backs can be used on a Tech cam.
 

Dustbak

Member
Thanks for the suggestion Carsten ... I had thought about doing that.

What is really a bite in the bum is that this H3D-II/39 is like brand new, has worked flawlessly from day one, and has less than 2400 shots on it ... mostly used in studio tethered to a computer where you tend not to hose off shots.

So someone trading a beater H3D/39 with 50,000 shots on it gets basically the same trade in amount as I do with a LN H3D-II/39. :wtf:

Now I did negotiate a slightly better trade value with the Hassey rep, but it's still not very equitable.

Actually, the thought I had was to see if someone with a H3D/39 just wanted to trade + some cash to get the H3D-II/39 with low mileage.

What is even worse is that any old 16 meg back on any beat-up H or V camera garners the same trade value as my H3D-II/39 toward a H4D/50 or H4D/50 Multi-Shot. :wtf::wtf:

So in that case if I could find a $5,000. kit (no lens) and trade it, I could keep the H3D-II/39 ... or sell it for a deal and be $$$ ahead.

This crap makes my head spin around and then explode. :eek:

-Marc
I am in exactly the same position. I have a CF39 or a CF39MS for trade-up. I am thinking about finding a friend with a 96C...
 

P. Chong

Well-known member
Thanks Marc for a well thought out response. The prices my dealer quoted me for the demo H3D-22 is slightly more than what is offered by HUSA. BTW, I live in Singapore, the dealer is Shiro.

Guy, I just read yours and Jack's report on P25 vs P65. Very informative. I am not sure if moire will be a problem for me, as some 30% of my shooting will be people, portraits. I also suspect I will want to be able to shoot at higher ISOs.

But the 9 micron magic issue seem to encourage me...the 22mp backs are certainly cheaper.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
I am in exactly the same position. I have a CF39 or a CF39MS for trade-up. I am thinking about finding a friend with a 96C...
PM me about your CF backs ... I have a H2F that'll take a CF with a H iAdapter and maybe we can work out a deal (this has nothing to do with the trade program, looking for a separate deal here because Hasselblad is smoking the drapes with a Crack pipe chaser concerning their Pre-Owned listing prices).

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I honestly think Hassy and Phase send to rental houses, use as spares and get them off the market. I call it marketing 102 is to take the used systems off the market to get buyers to buy new. At least that is my theory
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Marc for a well thought out response. The prices my dealer quoted me for the demo H3D-22 is slightly more than what is offered by HUSA. BTW, I live in Singapore, the dealer is Shiro.

Guy, I just read yours and Jack's report on P25 vs P65. Very informative. I am not sure if moire will be a problem for me, as some 30% of my shooting will be people, portraits. I also suspect I will want to be able to shoot at higher ISOs.

But the 9 micron magic issue seem to encourage me...the 22mp backs are certainly cheaper.
Thanks best advice I think all of us can give you is take your time do your homework and try things out. This forum is loaded with data so take advantage of it and we have some extremely smart folks here that know a lot about Hassy, Phase and Leaf products not to mention Sinar as well.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
BTW, what does Hassleblad do with the traded in cameras? Do they refurbish, and resell?
I asked the same thing on another thread ... and Guy answered that many basically go bye-bye.

There is a huge warehouse somewhere in North Dakota filled with digital backs .... looks like the last scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark". :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

P. Chong

Well-known member
Quick question, guys, is the upgrade from h3d to h3dii a send in and get a new camera affair, or send in, camera goes to Sweden (or wherever) and gets the upgrade affair?

To those who have done the upgrade, or used both, do you think its worth the $$?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I believe the later model has an improved IR filter which results in less noise and better resistance to flare etc.
That's correct. Plus the MKII model has the larger brighter 3" LCD. and a different ergonomic layout of the buttons.

However, one would be hard pressed to see real world IQ differences in most applications ... most, but not all.

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Quick question, guys, is the upgrade from h3d to h3dii a send in and get a new camera affair, or send in, camera goes to Sweden (or wherever) and gets the upgrade affair?

To those who have done the upgrade, or used both, do you think its worth the $$?
I don't believe sending it in for an upgrade is economical.

However, trading in a HD3 garners the same trade value as a H3D-II ... makes no sense but that's the way it is.

-Marc
 
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