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Thread: Pentax countdown..........

  1. #101
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    I used a pair of Pentax 645s for years (pre autofocus versions)

    They were ugly little buggers but felt great in the hand, very well balanced with superbly controlled mirror return and film advance was as smooth as it got.

    Most importantly the lenses were superb, their wides were BETTER than anything Hassie or Mamiya had (but so did Contax and Bronica & Rollei- just at a higher price).
    Pentax made world class optics, that was never questioned by anyone who used them, and there wasnt really a bad lens in their 645 line (such as hassies current H 35).

    If the 645D gets out of japan, the lenses will not be an issue, they will be the strong point.
    I've never once shot with a Pentax lens. So this is more a generalized point.

    How a lens performs with full frame medium format film and how that lens performs with a 6 micron 1.3x crop sensor are only mostly related. I've tested several lenses that I was told were excellent that were mid-pack at best.

    Chromatic aberration in my experience is often more pronounced on digital systems than film (post processing lens correction can help with this a lot, but it's best if it's not there to start with) and 6 microns can be very demanding on resolving power.

    Hopefully if/when it becomes available whoever is distributing it will be smart enough to get it in the hands of guys like Guy and Jack who have a lot of experience testing.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Hopefully if/when it becomes available whoever is distributing it will be smart enough to get it in the hands of guys like Guy and Jack who have a lot of experience testing.
    Agreed.

    I'm most interested in seeing the difference between Pentax 14 bit and the 16 bit of the higher end MF systems.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    There is some question about the 16 bits in at least some MF cameras. There were some threads here and more on LL about that. IIRC the ADC doesn't always handle more than 14 bits, and the lower bits can contain mostly noise anyway. There is some guy (who I had a run-in with, but who seems generally very knowledgeable about it) who wrote about this.

    In short, I am not sure that there is actually a 14-bit/16-bit difference in real life.
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Interesting post about 16bit MFD: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...word=x#7908771

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I've never once shot with a Pentax lens. So this is more a generalized point.

    How a lens performs with full frame medium format film and how that lens performs with a 6 micron 1.3x crop sensor are only mostly related. I've tested several lenses that I was told were excellent that were mid-pack at best.

    Chromatic aberration in my experience is often more pronounced on digital systems than film (post processing lens correction can help with this a lot, but it's best if it's not there to start with) and 6 microns can be very demanding on resolving power.

    Hopefully if/when it becomes available whoever is distributing it will be smart enough to get it in the hands of guys like Guy and Jack who have a lot of experience testing.

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    Thanks Doug the bottom line general rule of thumb is a 9 micron sensor would be more forgiving on lens resolution than a 6 micron. So as we keep dipping down it is going to take some better performance from the lenses. So some of the older glass out there may have some issues just like some old Hassy's and Mamiya glass when it comes to these new breeds of 40 mpx sensors.
    I admit this Pentax is interesting for sure and maybe a good way to get in but somewhere along the line there is a catch to this system and we have to see what it is. Like to get my hands on it and I need to go read about it more for sure. One thing that Leica keeps marketing is this lens correction built in so no special raw processing software to process. So if that is the case it has been out since November and it is March now and no profiles for it. There is something to be said for proprietary software it's built for your cam and draws the most from those files. What is Pentax going to use are they going to depend on Aperture or LR.

    There is marketing and than there is reality. There are two sides to every coin, two sides to every story and damn it takes two to tango. Enough analogies we need facts.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    That's "Stephen."

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    That's "Stephen."
    What were you expecting ??

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Agreed.

    I'm most interested in seeing the difference between Pentax 14 bit and the 16 bit of the higher end MF systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    In short, I am not sure that there is actually a 14-bit/16-bit difference in real life.
    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Don't buy that BS. The files may be 16 bits, but that's just interpolation from the 12-bit AD converters. In fact, no MDFB amplifier/AD chain comes even close to the signal quality of D3/D3s/D3x or the Canon counterparts. In fact, pixel for pixel even the P65+ is worse than my lowly "toycam" - the Nikon D40. The only thing that the P65+ has got in its favour here is a base ISO of just over 40, an almost 6x higher sensor area, and a massive amount of pixels. Measured for pixel quality and colour accuracy it's quite a lot worse than even the worst entry-level DSLR today. It just beats this by piling on area and pixels. The best MDFB in existence isn't in the least hindered or kept down by a 12-bit converison readout.
    O boy. Where do I start?

    1) The A/D convertor in a Phase One back is 16-bit at the hardware level. Whether, by itself, it produces accurate data in the 15th and 16th bit I have no idea because I'm not a PHD. However, it is, for sure, 16-bit hardware - not 12-bit hardware stored as 16-bit data.

    2) The entire image chain is important here:
    Lens coating > lens > aperture/shutter > IR filter > microlenses > sensor pixel well > sensor readout > sensor-to-convertor path > A/D convertor > raw file > black calibration > characteristic curve > demosaic > ICC Profile > deconvolution > noise reduction > sharpening

    In particular the black calibration data and noise reduction is incredibly important to producing natural, smooth, color accurate data in the highlights and shadows. If you know the exact kind of noise a system produces and you also sample that noise very carefully (black frame) and include that data in the raw file then when you go to reduce that noise the result is much much better than generic noise reduction. This is roughly similar to the method that the new Google phone uses to reduce the background noise by having one measurement with the signal and background (the exposure) and one measurement with just the background (the dark frame).

    The point being that the statement that the P65+ has worse per pixel quality than a D40 is just absolute garbage. It surely must be based on something (the guy seems very intelligent), but it surely is not based on processing raw files from each.

    A 65+ has the highest pixel quality (specifically DR and color) of any system I've ever used.

    3) It's always tempting to reduce quality down to a single number and this goes for A/D convertors as well. Knowing the bit-depth of the A/D convertor used in a camera might indicate how much that company is prioritizing component-cost and speed compared to absolute image quality and it establishes a maximum possible quality level. But only the real world raw files will tell you what the actual resulting quality is.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    That's "Stephen."
    I wouldn't take too much offense given the constant swapping of THEIR and THERE :-)

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Irrespective of how the camera actually performs it does seem to establish that a number of features that MF users have been asking for can, in fact, be delivered. Without driving up costs prohibitively. Just looked in my gear cabinet and find that I still have my Pentax 645 kit and lenses. Maybe they're now worth more than the cost of a paperweight

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I wouldn't take too much offense given the constant swapping of THEIR and THERE :-)

    If I EVER get this correct than it ain't me posting.
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    To each his own. Guy's a photographer; I'm a speller.

  13. #113
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    This may be a re-post but this site has more photos of the inside "bits" including the focusing screen showing the AF points.

    http://www.fareastgizmos.com/digital...lr_cameras.php

    Steve

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    I've been trying to compare to the Mamiya DM22 since it's the closest similar camera (currently under $10k for a two lens kit - 80 and 55mm), but can't seem to find the pixel size, does anyone know? The sensor is 20% bigger.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    I just read that and even I have a couple of nits to pick:

    Thanks to approximately 40 effective megapixels, it assures a wide dynamic range to faithfully reproduce the prevailing ambience and the sense of depth in super-high-resolution images that are rich in gradation and truthful in texture description.
    Since when does the number of pixels affect the dynamic range of a sensor? Granted, more pixels = ability to capture more data, but it's my understanding that pixel well size is a greater determinant of DR than pixel count.

    A newly designed shutter unit with a top shutter speed of 1/4000 second that can withstand as many as 50,000 shutter releases.
    50,000 shutter releases? Is that a typo? Sounds like a pretty short active life to me. I'd burn it out in a little over a year.

    Still the camera brings lots features from 35mm DSLRs up to medium format digital. I await to see the engineering responses from the established MFD brands.Their first reaction will be denial. All corporations do it.

    Will this entry spur Nikon and Canon to jump into this market as well? Food for thought.
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    50,000 shutter releases? Is that a typo? Sounds like a pretty short active life to me. I'd burn it out in a little over a year.
    Boy, I'm feeling like a slacker now... That's a lot of MF shooting you're doing there Carlos.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Sorry David, I guess I wasn't clear. With my Nikon I shoot about 40K photos in a year. I shoot ballet which is just like shooting sports only they are dressed prettier and the lights are lower.

    Assuming I would keep that up with an MFD camera, I would cook through one in about two years.
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    O boy. Where do I start?
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    Unfortunately, this becomes a matter of who to believe. FWIW, "theSuede" is a scientist that is actually employed by a company in this field. I've yet to come across someone on any forum more legitimate or knowledgeable than him, but ymmv.
    Last edited by douglasf13; 10th March 2010 at 20:21.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Thanks for the link...

    Steve

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I've been trying to compare to the Mamiya DM22 since it's the closest similar camera (currently under $10k for a two lens kit - 80 and 55mm), but can't seem to find the pixel size, does anyone know? The sensor is 20% bigger.
    Apart from the price, I can't really see many similarities. The Mamiya has half the number of pixels and 2 stops slower max ISO. In addition, no weather sealing, lower resolution LCD and presumably a less sophisticated AF system. While I'm sure the Mamiya is a good camera, the specs indicate that it's assembled from parts they found in the bargain basement.

    Another big advantage with the Pentax is the dual SD cards that will go into the slot of most current laptop computers (much faster download than with external units) and allows for RAW plus jpeg on separate cards. In my case, that means that the client can have jpegs the second the shooting is completed, or even earlier, during the shoot.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 10th March 2010 at 20:44.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Unfortunately, this becomes a matter of who to believe.
    Trust no one.

    Go shoot a high contrast scene with a 65+ and a D40, crop the 65+ down to the D40 size, do your best to make both look as good as possible and compare.

    Or for that matter do the same with an H25 (7 year old digital back) and a 1Ds III. Those have the same native resolution and the 1Ds III has a 6 year technology lead.

    If you're anywhere near Miami or Atlanta we'll be happy to provide the gear. If not, your local dealer is surely happy to let you take such a comparison.

    Let us know your results.

    Doug

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Half the pixels, yes, but how big are the pixels? Presumably much larger. And of course supposedly it's true 16 bit vs 14. That appears to be open. I don't see the point of 11 point AF other than to fill specs to entice those coming from the DSLR market. It's simply not needed in a camera supposedly for 'serious landscape and outdoor photographers' which they state is the market for which the product was developed.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Trust no one.

    Go shoot a high contrast scene with a 65+ and a D40, crop the 65+ down to the D40 size, do your best to make both look as good as possible and compare.

    Or for that matter do the same with an H25 (7 year old digital back) and a 1Ds III. Those have the same native resolution and the 1Ds III has a 6 year technology lead.

    If you're anywhere near Miami or Atlanta we'll be happy to provide the gear. If not, your local dealer is surely happy to let you take such a comparison.

    Let us know your results.

    Doug
    Are you saying crop a 6mp image out of the center of the P65+, or resize the P65+ down to 6mp?

    This seems to be a bit like P&S sensors vs. 35mm. P&S sensors have had better quantum efficiency than 35mm sensors for a while (in general,) but the 35mm sensors produce better images by leveraging sensor size and pixel pitch. I believe that is "theSuede's" point.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Irrespective of how the camera actually performs it does seem to establish that a number of features that MF users have been asking for can, in fact, be delivered. Without driving up costs prohibitively. Just looked in my gear cabinet and find that I still have my Pentax 645 kit and lenses. Maybe they're now worth more than the cost of a paperweight
    I sold what remained of my P645 kit (body, two lenses, magazines, etc) just before the 2009 Holidays and netted around $750-800 for it. I bet that as soon as the P645D is shipping, the two lenses alone will be worth more than that.

    The Pentax medium format gear, both 6x7 and 645, was always a stunning value for money.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The Pentax medium format gear, both 6x7 and 645, was always a stunning value for money.
    +1! Glad I kept all my Pentax 67 lenses etc....now I've just got to find one of those P67->P645 adapters. Darn they are hard to come by!

    Gary

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Half the pixels, yes, but how big are the pixels? Presumably much larger. And of course supposedly it's true 16 bit vs 14. That appears to be open. I don't see the point of 11 point AF other than to fill specs to entice those coming from the DSLR market. It's simply not needed in a camera supposedly for 'serious landscape and outdoor photographers' which they state is the market for which the product was developed.
    Outdoor photographers don't use AF? For me, this could even be an interesting travel camera under the right circumstances, and there are plenty of situations I can think of where the nature of the AF system can be a limitations. It was a limitation when I used an E-1 (3 focus points) for that purpose.

    Has Pentax said that this camera is mainly for nature and outdoor? My guess is that anyone buying it will use it for whatever as long as size, high ISO and/or speed aren't limitations.

    I couldn't care less what the size of the pixels are. What counts is what the client sees on print. If the 22MP sensor is an older model with older technology, I doubt that it gives higher quality per pixel, even with pixels that are twice as large. Technology evolves. 14 vs. 16 bit colour depth? So far, the only "documentation" of the advantages of 16 bits I've seen has been endless technical discussions that have limited value in real life.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The point being that the statement that the P65+ has worse per pixel quality than a D40 is just absolute garbage. It surely must be based on something (the guy seems very intelligent), but it surely is not based on processing raw files from each.
    I think his statement is very specific, not commenting on the image quality at the end of the pipeline. His more detailed explanation was something about the noise inherent in the signal (signal quality), I believe, which he then went on to explain was made up for by sheer number of pixels and pixel size, and so on. I don't think anyone would dispute that the P65+ results at the end of the pipeline are among the best in the world, at this time.

    He tests cameras professionally, and hangs out with a guy who swaps A900 sensors into D3x cameras for fun, and another who writes a well-respected raw program, so I wouldn't dismiss his comments.
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Are you saying crop a 6mp image out of the center of the P65+, or resize the P65+ down to 6mp?
    Crop. Comparing the per pixel quality of each.

    I don't dispute his expertise or his honesty. But I also know what I see in the final raw files.

    Therefore it can only be that his comments about noise and dynamic range are focused on one aspect of the chain (that I listed above) and not the cumulative effect of the entire system. His paragraph that I quoted seems focused specifically on the sensor - A/D convertor. Perhaps if his comments are correct then the difference in outcomes (per pixel) is from the effect of the dark frame hardware/firmware/software. Or perhaps the noise is different in character in a way that is more easily removed while keeping detail, tonal smoothness, and color accuracy. Maybe it is mostly the software. I don't know the relative contributions of each. And frankly, I don't care. All I care about is that when I reach into the files to grab highlight or shadow detail I can do so to a greater extent and with more pleasing/natural results (per pixel) from a P65+ raw in C1 than with any other equipment/workflow that I've used.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    He tests cameras professionally, and hangs out with a guy who swaps A900 sensors into D3x cameras for fun, and another who writes a well-respected raw program, so I wouldn't dismiss his comments.
    My initial comment was a bit off in tone from what I intended. (so an official apology to him and to the forum). I should not have said the comment was "garbage" simply that it does not bare even a passing resemblance to my real world experience of what can be pulled from the final raw files of each system*.

    *again speaking of high-end Canon dSLRs here. I've never shot the specific D40 he mentions.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    ... focused on one aspect of the chain (that I listed above) and not the cumulative effect of the entire system....
    agree!
    All these "RAW" comparisions are pretty pointless (IMHO). We simply don't know (and probably will never know) how much pre-processing is done at the RAW stage in-camera ... with Nikon, Canon, Sony etc. But we do know that DBs are too "primitive" to pre-process in camera... they need the manufacturers software to utilize the proprietary data. Hence the final result is what we have to look at.
    If you look at the really phantastic clean files even an older DB delivers at base ISO you really wonder what all these guys are talking about. Simply doesn't add up...

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I think his statement is very specific, not commenting on the image quality at the end of the pipeline. His more detailed explanation was something about the noise inherent in the signal (signal quality), I believe, which he then went on to explain was made up for by sheer number of pixels and pixel size, and so on. I don't think anyone would dispute that the P65+ results at the end of the pipeline are among the best in the world, at this time.

    He tests cameras professionally, and hangs out with a guy who swaps A900 sensors into D3x cameras for fun, and another who writes a well-respected raw program, so I wouldn't dismiss his comments.
    I'm confused. Is there some actual application of something BEFORE it gets to the end of the pipeline?

    I DO get what the gentleman is saying after wading through all the tech-no babble. True science or not, interesting or not, once absorbed, it's just more data crammed into the old human hard-drive waiting its turn to be deleted as being 100% useless ... so, yeah, I'll eventually "dismiss it". Probably should learn to just not read it in the first place. My bad.

    I agree with Doug, trust no one. My policy is to trust my two favorite evaluators ... my left eye and my right eye working together. Looking at Jack's P65+ pics ... I really don't care how the "sausage was made" ... I want my taste

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    agree!
    All these "RAW" comparisions are pretty pointless (IMHO). We simply don't know (and probably will never know) how much pre-processing is done at the RAW stage in-camera ... with Nikon, Canon, Sony etc. But we do know that DBs are too "primitive" to pre-process in camera... they need the manufacturers software to utilize the proprietary data. Hence the final result is what we have to look at.
    If you look at the really phantastic clean files even an older DB delivers at base ISO you really wonder what all these guys are talking about. Simply doesn't add up...
    This is the basic problem with Raws . DB backs are not being cooked before they hit the Raw processing engines and there maybe a lot of cooking going on before they hit on these DSLR files. You really don't know because i know C1 does so much to my Raw files. Simple case take one in ACR and it looks like crap bring the same file in C1 and it is a whole different ballgame. There IS a reason for software made specifically for the backs.
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    This is the basic problem with Raws . ... There IS a reason for software made specifically for the backs.
    +1 on that - so I wish I was smart enough to only use one system - but noooo not me nope...-

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    I agree with pretty much everything above. Like Mark said, no matter how "the sausage is made," the P65+ makes incredible images. My point in posting the thread from "theSuede" was simply to bring to light the possibility that the new Pentax's 14bits may not be much of an issue.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Simple case take one in ACR and it looks like crap bring the same file in C1 and it is a whole different ballgame.
    ********
    I never gave much credence to my RAW converter is better than X or Y until I did some direct comparisons between Phocus and ACR. It's not subtle. I suspect that it would be possible to get the colors "right" with some work in ACR but the difference in "detail vs noise" in underexposed shadows was huge. Of course the other possibility is "operator" error and/or ignorance.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    No the differences in noise floor, DR, color and everything else can be huge. My Phase files in ACR are 1.5 underexposed right at of the gun. Sure I can use it but I will not get the best out of those files from it.
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No the differences in noise floor, DR, color and everything else can be huge. My Phase files in ACR are 1.5 underexposed right at of the gun. Sure I can use it but I will not get the best out of those files from it.
    That's interesting, Guy. Usually ACR has a baseline exposure comp that artificially boosts the file, not the other way around. Have you looked at your RAWs in a program like RawAnalyze to see what your real RAW histogram looks like?

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    No I have not and honestly been a C1 user for maybe 9 years and still have found nothing that can touch it and reason i bought a Phase to begin with but I am getting a chance to try the HD40 and Phocus soon here and see what that is like but again these are software programs built for these backs and they get the best from them. ACR ,LR Aperture are all nice programs but they are general cam programs . None of them are specialized for a certain camera.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Yeah, that makes sense to me. I used Leaf Capture when I had a Leaf DB. I'm just curious as to how much boosting C1 does to your Phase files compared to the actual RAW file itself.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No I have not and honestly been a C1 user for maybe 9 years and still have found nothing that can touch it and reason i bought a Phase to begin with but I am getting a chance to try the HD40 and Phocus soon here and see what that is like but again these are software programs built for these backs and they get the best from them. ACR ,LR Aperture are all nice programs but they are general cam programs . None of them are specialized for a certain camera.
    Exactly, the RAW converters in question (C1, Phocus, etc) are essentially dedicated to the makers backs first (and in the case of C1) everyone else's second. Leica went with Lightroom since DNG is their native format and Adobe knows it better than anyone. I predict a lot of M8/M9/S2 tweaks in LR3 when it ships.
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    p.s RawAnalyze isn't a raw converter. It's a raw....well, a raw analyzer. Guy, you should download it and take a look at your RAW's for fun some time.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    Exactly, the RAW converters in question (C1, Phocus, etc) are essentially dedicated to the makers backs first (and in the case of C1) everyone else's second. Leica went with Lightroom since DNG is their native format and Adobe knows it better than anyone. I predict a lot of M8/M9/S2 tweaks in LR3 when it ships.
    I don't think Leica went with DNG because it is Adobe's. The standard is open, and everything worth knowing is public. I think they went with Lightroom for two reasons:

    - Lightroom has the same philosophy as Leica: make it simple but good.
    - It was the strongest move left.

    I have a feeling that when Leica and Phase hooked up a while back, Leica always thought that the S2 would ship with Capture One. There is no way for me to know this, but I don't see why else they would have tried to make a deal. I don't know what went wrong either. My feeling is that Phase backed out, or worse, but I have no way of justifying that, it is just a gut feeling.
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I don't think Leica went with DNG because it is Adobe's. The standard is open, and everything worth knowing is public. I think they went with Lightroom for two reasons:

    - Lightroom has the same philosophy as Leica: make it simple but good.
    - It was the strongest move left.

    I have a feeling that when Leica and Phase hooked up a while back, Leica always thought that the S2 would ship with Capture One. There is no way for me to know this, but I don't see why else they would have tried to make a deal. I don't know what went wrong either. My feeling is that Phase backed out, or worse, but I have no way of justifying that, it is just a gut feeling.
    Carsten, I agree with you about Leica's choice of using the DNG format - because it's an open standard, and I might add, one with the longest theoretical longevity (since it is a standard). Leica used the DNG format for the M8 when it was released in 2006 and shipped with Capture One. Therefore, it is hard to say they chose DNG because it is associated with Adobe.

    Now with respect to Leica's switch from Capture One to Adobe Lightroom, I hypothesize that Leica realized the S2 would be in direct competition with Phase One products and therefore it would not be a very good idea to give Phase One access to their S2 customer list and contact information via registration of the Caputure One software. As a result, they had to cut ties with Phase One/Capture One and move to a different raw processing program. At least that is what makes sense to me without any direct or inside knowledge Leica's actual rationale. Fortunately, Leica had the freedom to switch raw converter software because of their previous decision to use an open standard (DNG) as the raw format and their systems do not require lens corrections in the raw converter.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    p.s RawAnalyze isn't a raw converter. It's a raw....well, a raw analyzer. Guy, you should download it and take a look at your RAW's for fun some time.
    Hmmmm...looks like a Windows only app.

    Steve

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    Carsten, I agree with you about Leica's choice of using the DNG format - because it's an open standard, and I might add, one with the longest theoretical longevity (since it is a standard). Leica used the DNG format for the M8 when it was released in 2006 and shipped with Capture One. Therefore, it is hard to say they chose DNG because it is associated with Adobe.

    Now with respect to Leica's switch from Capture One to Adobe Lightroom, I hypothesize that Leica realized the S2 would be in direct competition with Phase One products and therefore it would not be a very good idea to give Phase One access to their S2 customer list and contact information via registration of the Caputure One software. As a result, they had to cut ties with Phase One/Capture One and move to a different raw processing program. At least that is what makes sense to me without any direct or inside knowledge Leica's actual rationale. Fortunately, Leica had the freedom to switch raw converter software because of their previous decision to use an open standard (DNG) as the raw format and their systems do not require lens corrections in the raw converter.
    It's more than just lens corrections Mark and still to this day LR does not have a proper profile for it. I won't get into all my arguments except to say do NOT underestimate the power of proprietor software for the cam. You don't buy simple solutions to MF you buy control and the power the control brings to the table. This is not a one size fits all situation
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It's more than just lens corrections Mark and still to this day LR does not have a proper profile for it. I won't get into all my arguments except to say do NOT underestimate the power of proprietor software for the cam. You don't buy simple solutions to MF you buy control and the power the control brings to the table. This is not a one size fits all situation

    From what I have seen, using Capture One instead of Lightroom or ACR has other image advantages besides better baseline color, etc.

    It handles the deficiencies of the sensor much better due to the calibration file that is taken into consideration but is not in LR/ACR. Shoot some chrome speculars, bring them into C1 and ACR and see the difference in the blooming.

    It's a better file in every way.


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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Since we're speculating on the S2 and LR, what the hell. My gut feeling from the massive confusion, conflicting statements and eventual debacle that was the Leica+Phase "partnership" announcements is:

    1. The relationship with Phase at the time the S2 was conceived was planned to be deeper. Use of C1, lenses for Phase, co-sales and service deals, maybe even co-branding, etc. All the things many of us got excited about for roughly 1/2 hr after the press release. All good business sense for Leica making a move into the MFDB market. also a nice niche body for Phase and access to Solms glass tech. At that time Leica would have known that Phase would have access to S2 user data via C1 use. Who cares if your 'deep' partners and revenue sharing?

    2. Something went south. Private feedback from the Leica dealer network expressing outrage over a sudden increase in sales competition, Leica falling into the "not invented here trap", Phase/Leica expecting too much, conflict over engineering/marketing/distribution decisions, etc, etc.

    3. One of the two, my guess Leica, starts to radically dial the depth of the relationship back- eventually crossing out a bullet point of the deal that, from Phase's PoV was mission-critical. Phase gives the S2 product management team the Bronx cheer.

    4. Leica now has a camera about to be released, thankfully using DNG, with no RAW software. Time to start speed-dialing. Adobe says no problem - what the hell, we're agnostic. You're no higher on our list than CaNikon (actually lower given relative sales volumes and model turn-over), but we'll be good for it.

    Again, all just speculation, but I'd bet a beer on it.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It's more than just lens corrections Mark and still to this day LR does not have a proper profile for it. I won't get into all my arguments except to say do NOT underestimate the power of proprietor software for the cam. You don't buy simple solutions to MF you buy control and the power the control brings to the table. This is not a one size fits all situation
    I was not speculating or pretending to know which raw converter is better - just a possible reason for Leica switching.

    I will say that the fact that Leica doesn't require lens corrections in the raw converter and it uses an opens standard file format were part of the reasons I choose the Leica S2 over Phase one or Hassey. In my opinion an open standard file format should offer a little more assurance the file can be read in raw converters in the future versus a single company proprietary file format. I have seen too many proprietary file formats (from rather large companies) go by the wayside in my line of work. I know I in the minority with this concern and that is OK. Let me add that I don't know if the DNG format will last any longer than some of the current proprietary formats - it's just where I chose to place my bet.

    I do agree with you Guy in that it is pretty crappy that there are no proper profiles for the S2 available. I have ordered an XRite Passport and will try making my own for now.

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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Since we're speculating on the S2 and LR, what the hell. My gut feeling from the massive confusion, conflicting statements and eventual debacle that was the Leica+Phase "partnership" announcements is:

    1. The relationship with Phase at the time the S2 was conceived was planned to be deeper. Use of C1, lenses for Phase, co-sales and service deals, maybe even co-branding, etc. All the things many of us got excited about for roughly 1/2 hr after the press release. All good business sense for Leica making a move into the MFDB market. also a nice niche body for Phase and access to Solms glass tech. At that time Leica would have known that Phase would have access to S2 user data via C1 use. Who cares if your 'deep' partners and revenue sharing?

    2. Something went south. Private feedback from the Leica dealer network expressing outrage over a sudden increase in sales competition, Leica falling into the "not invented here trap", Phase/Leica expecting too much, conflict over engineering/marketing/distribution decisions, etc, etc.

    3. One of the two, my guess Leica, starts to radically dial the depth of the relationship back- eventually crossing out a bullet point of the deal that, from Phase's PoV was mission-critical. Phase gives the S2 product management team the Bronx cheer.

    4. Leica now has a camera about to be released, thankfully using DNG, with no RAW software. Time to start speed-dialing. Adobe says no problem - what the hell, we're agnostic. You're no higher on our list than CaNikon (actually lower given relative sales volumes and model turn-over), but we'll be good for it.

    Again, all just speculation, but I'd bet a beer on it.
    I've actually written about the real events quite a bit in the past, but here's the summary:

    I was at the S2 launch event in Cologne when the two CEOs took the stage and announced a vague "alliance". No one at Leica wanted to speculate how deep this agreement would go or what would actually materialize as a result.

    The following day at Photokina, Phase One distributed (mis)information that Phase One would be handling service, support, and distribution.... and fueled speculation that Phase had contributed to the R&D effort of the S2. I was in the back room at the time the product managers and Leica execs discovered what had been distributed online. Let's just say they left for the Phase One booth in a hurry and did not look happy at all. Within an hour or so, statements from Phase had been softened and the standard line from both Leica and Phase One was that "an official press release will be given within two or three weeks from both parties to explain the actual nature of the relationship." On every YouTube interview and in every press meeting, Leica engineers stressed repeatedly that the S2 was designed 100% by Leica, in-house, without any technology partners. About six months later, the general public started to actually believe this.

    Two to three weeks later, there was no press release. Or, two to three months later. The silence from both sides was deafening.

    Meanwhile, behind the scenes, I would find out later, that there really was never any collaboration between the two companies before or after Photokina. The announcement was meant to reemphasize Leica's use of Capture One software for its product range. At the time, all M8, M8.2, and D-Lux 4 cameras shipped with C1. By my estimates, this made Leica Phase's largest C1 distributor, with well over 100,000 paid copies shipped. Interestingly, for all of the backroom demonstrations of the S2 prototypes, the DNGs were being shown in LR, not C1.

    By November or December '08, just a month or two after the announcement, Leica had already penned an agreement with Adobe and was working with them on support for the S2. This was more than just a casual generic addition of a camera. How many other cameras actually ship with a licensed copy of LR? And, LR is now included with all M9 and X1 cameras as well. So, the volume of software licensing will actually be pretty substantial. Adobe wasn't just a last-ditch effort because Phase didn't want to play. Going with Adobe was a long-term strategic move.

    Adobe is a software company. A very strong and dominant one, and one who is competing heavily with Apple to control the DAM/RAW workflow market. Having LR and Aperture battling it out is good for consumers as this will drive aggressive product innovation, from both sides.

    At PMA, early the following year, strong hints were dropped by Leica product managers that C1 was out and LR was in. I got an official statement from Leica (which I published) that all sales, service and support on the S2 would be handled exclusively by Leica and Leica dealers. And, even though Leica decided moving forward with Phase wasn't in the cards, it was Phase One who issued a press release later in the Spring to announce they were calling off the relationship. I don't know the details of the C1 distribution deal that Leica and Phase One had, but I have to imagine that Phase made a considerable amount of money for the 100,000+ copies of C1 that Leica purchased from them. I'd also venture to say that they stood to lose a considerable amount of revenue from Leica's move to Adobe for all future products.

    Ultimately, when Phase was making MFD backs and Leica was making M8s there was no direct competition between the companies. With the S2, there is. Being reliant on a direct competitor to provide the highest level of service, support, and dedication isn't a very good position to be in. I'm sure giving S2 user registration data to Phase wasn't exactly something Leica was excited about, and how could they know for sure that their competitor was providing the absolute best quality s/w conversions for them?

    I guess when the options were weighed, Leica decided that forging a long-term relationship with Adobe who isn't a hardware competitor and only a software vendor was the safer and better option.

    Now, back to the Pentax. Anyone know what software will ship with it or if it will offer tethered operation?

    David
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    Re: Pentax countdown..........

    Ugly or not Ugly, not really that important to me, actually it looks just like the old P645 which I used for years with film, except that the handle is now solid. Features that are a plus to me are:

    Comparing this to the P45+ and AFDIII body, still waiting on the phantom
    645DF body upgrade.

    11 point AF, more like what I am used to using

    3 inch LCD will assume it's more like the modern LCD's used today
    I don't shoot tethered, all field work and the LCD on my P45+ is
    not worth too much

    Lithium Ion battery

    Dust removal technology (a must since you can't remove the back)

    Ability to capture different sized images

    Cheaper price point.

    All the controls are integrated to the body, not two separate systems
    I realize the the new P65+ and DF body allow this now

    Ability to use all the older Pentax MF AF and non AF glass
    I still own many of the lenses, including the 35mmFA/AF one of the best
    lenses in it's class, which I used for thousands of exposures with my
    Zork Adapter with 1ds MKI, MKII, MKIII

    Bright viewfinder allowing better manual focus opportunities.
    I never have found the Mamiya viewfinder bright and easy to manually
    focus

    Possible Negatives:

    Raw converter, slikypix? not to excited about that. The last time I looked
    at the software it was still all in Japanese. Most likely ACR will eventually
    pick up the raws, but it would be nice to have Capture 1 support

    U.S. support? if any? Pentax has not had any real dealer support IMO for
    last 6 years. Their Point and Shoot DSLR's don't count to me. This is
    a much more involved camera. May be why it's only going to be released
    in the Japanese market for now.

    It will be interesting to see if the camera makes it to the U.S.

    Paul Caldwell

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