douglasf13
New member
p.s RawAnalyze isn't a raw converter. It's a raw....well, a raw analyzer. Guy, you should download it and take a look at your RAW's for fun some time.
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Pentax countdown..........
- Thread starter roanjoh
- Start date
carstenw
Active member
I don't think Leica went with DNG because it is Adobe's. The standard is open, and everything worth knowing is public. I think they went with Lightroom for two reasons:
- Lightroom has the same philosophy as Leica: make it simple but good.
- It was the strongest move left.
I have a feeling that when Leica and Phase hooked up a while back, Leica always thought that the S2 would ship with Capture One. There is no way for me to know this, but I don't see why else they would have tried to make a deal. I don't know what went wrong either. My feeling is that Phase backed out, or worse, but I have no way of justifying that, it is just a gut feeling.
Mark Gowin
Member
Carsten, I agree with you about Leica's choice of using the DNG format - because it's an open standard, and I might add, one with the longest theoretical longevity (since it is a standard). Leica used the DNG format for the M8 when it was released in 2006 and shipped with Capture One. Therefore, it is hard to say they chose DNG because it is associated with Adobe.
Now with respect to Leica's switch from Capture One to Adobe Lightroom, I hypothesize that Leica realized the S2 would be in direct competition with Phase One products and therefore it would not be a very good idea to give Phase One access to their S2 customer list and contact information via registration of the Caputure One software. As a result, they had to cut ties with Phase One/Capture One and move to a different raw processing program. At least that is what makes sense to me without any direct or inside knowledge Leica's actual rationale. Fortunately, Leica had the freedom to switch raw converter software because of their previous decision to use an open standard (DNG) as the raw format and their systems do not require lens corrections in the raw converter.
T
tetsrfun
Guest
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
It's more than just lens corrections Mark and still to this day LR does not have a proper profile for it. I won't get into all my arguments except to say do NOT underestimate the power of proprietor software for the cam. You don't buy simple solutions to MF you buy control and the power the control brings to the table. This is not a one size fits all situation
Steve Hendrix
Well-known member
From what I have seen, using Capture One instead of Lightroom or ACR has other image advantages besides better baseline color, etc.
It handles the deficiencies of the sensor much better due to the calibration file that is taken into consideration but is not in LR/ACR. Shoot some chrome speculars, bring them into C1 and ACR and see the difference in the blooming.
It's a better file in every way.
Steve Hendrix
Since we're speculating on the S2 and LR, what the hell. My gut feeling from the massive confusion, conflicting statements and eventual debacle that was the Leica+Phase "partnership" announcements is:
1. The relationship with Phase at the time the S2 was conceived was planned to be deeper. Use of C1, lenses for Phase, co-sales and service deals, maybe even co-branding, etc. All the things many of us got excited about for roughly 1/2 hr after the press release. All good business sense for Leica making a move into the MFDB market. also a nice niche body for Phase and access to Solms glass tech. At that time Leica would have known that Phase would have access to S2 user data via C1 use. Who cares if your 'deep' partners and revenue sharing?
2. Something went south. Private feedback from the Leica dealer network expressing outrage over a sudden increase in sales competition, Leica falling into the "not invented here trap", Phase/Leica expecting too much, conflict over engineering/marketing/distribution decisions, etc, etc.
3. One of the two, my guess Leica, starts to radically dial the depth of the relationship back- eventually crossing out a bullet point of the deal that, from Phase's PoV was mission-critical. Phase gives the S2 product management team the Bronx cheer.
4. Leica now has a camera about to be released, thankfully using DNG, with no RAW software. Time to start speed-dialing. Adobe says no problem - what the hell, we're agnostic. You're no higher on our list than CaNikon (actually lower given relative sales volumes and model turn-over), but we'll be good for it.
Again, all just speculation, but I'd bet a beer on it.
1. The relationship with Phase at the time the S2 was conceived was planned to be deeper. Use of C1, lenses for Phase, co-sales and service deals, maybe even co-branding, etc. All the things many of us got excited about for roughly 1/2 hr after the press release. All good business sense for Leica making a move into the MFDB market. also a nice niche body for Phase and access to Solms glass tech. At that time Leica would have known that Phase would have access to S2 user data via C1 use. Who cares if your 'deep' partners and revenue sharing?
2. Something went south. Private feedback from the Leica dealer network expressing outrage over a sudden increase in sales competition, Leica falling into the "not invented here trap", Phase/Leica expecting too much, conflict over engineering/marketing/distribution decisions, etc, etc.
3. One of the two, my guess Leica, starts to radically dial the depth of the relationship back- eventually crossing out a bullet point of the deal that, from Phase's PoV was mission-critical. Phase gives the S2 product management team the Bronx cheer.
4. Leica now has a camera about to be released, thankfully using DNG, with no RAW software. Time to start speed-dialing. Adobe says no problem - what the hell, we're agnostic. You're no higher on our list than CaNikon (actually lower given relative sales volumes and model turn-over), but we'll be good for it.
Again, all just speculation, but I'd bet a beer on it.
Mark Gowin
Member
I was not speculating or pretending to know which raw converter is better - just a possible reason for Leica switching.
I will say that the fact that Leica doesn't require lens corrections in the raw converter and it uses an opens standard file format were part of the reasons I choose the Leica S2 over Phase one or Hassey. In my opinion an open standard file format should offer a little more assurance the file can be read in raw converters in the future versus a single company proprietary file format. I have seen too many proprietary file formats (from rather large companies) go by the wayside in my line of work. I know I in the minority with this concern and that is OK. Let me add that I don't know if the DNG format will last any longer than some of the current proprietary formats - it's just where I chose to place my bet.
I do agree with you Guy in that it is pretty crappy that there are no proper profiles for the S2 available. I have ordered an XRite Passport and will try making my own for now.
I've actually written about the real events quite a bit in the past, but here's the summary:
I was at the S2 launch event in Cologne when the two CEOs took the stage and announced a vague "alliance". No one at Leica wanted to speculate how deep this agreement would go or what would actually materialize as a result.
The following day at Photokina, Phase One distributed (mis)information that Phase One would be handling service, support, and distribution.... and fueled speculation that Phase had contributed to the R&D effort of the S2. I was in the back room at the time the product managers and Leica execs discovered what had been distributed online. Let's just say they left for the Phase One booth in a hurry and did not look happy at all. Within an hour or so, statements from Phase had been softened and the standard line from both Leica and Phase One was that "an official press release will be given within two or three weeks from both parties to explain the actual nature of the relationship." On every YouTube interview and in every press meeting, Leica engineers stressed repeatedly that the S2 was designed 100% by Leica, in-house, without any technology partners. About six months later, the general public started to actually believe this.
Two to three weeks later, there was no press release. Or, two to three months later. The silence from both sides was deafening.
Meanwhile, behind the scenes, I would find out later, that there really was never any collaboration between the two companies before or after Photokina. The announcement was meant to reemphasize Leica's use of Capture One software for its product range. At the time, all M8, M8.2, and D-Lux 4 cameras shipped with C1. By my estimates, this made Leica Phase's largest C1 distributor, with well over 100,000 paid copies shipped. Interestingly, for all of the backroom demonstrations of the S2 prototypes, the DNGs were being shown in LR, not C1.
By November or December '08, just a month or two after the announcement, Leica had already penned an agreement with Adobe and was working with them on support for the S2. This was more than just a casual generic addition of a camera. How many other cameras actually ship with a licensed copy of LR? And, LR is now included with all M9 and X1 cameras as well. So, the volume of software licensing will actually be pretty substantial. Adobe wasn't just a last-ditch effort because Phase didn't want to play. Going with Adobe was a long-term strategic move.
Adobe is a software company. A very strong and dominant one, and one who is competing heavily with Apple to control the DAM/RAW workflow market. Having LR and Aperture battling it out is good for consumers as this will drive aggressive product innovation, from both sides.
At PMA, early the following year, strong hints were dropped by Leica product managers that C1 was out and LR was in. I got an official statement from Leica (which I published) that all sales, service and support on the S2 would be handled exclusively by Leica and Leica dealers. And, even though Leica decided moving forward with Phase wasn't in the cards, it was Phase One who issued a press release later in the Spring to announce they were calling off the relationship. I don't know the details of the C1 distribution deal that Leica and Phase One had, but I have to imagine that Phase made a considerable amount of money for the 100,000+ copies of C1 that Leica purchased from them. I'd also venture to say that they stood to lose a considerable amount of revenue from Leica's move to Adobe for all future products.
Ultimately, when Phase was making MFD backs and Leica was making M8s there was no direct competition between the companies. With the S2, there is. Being reliant on a direct competitor to provide the highest level of service, support, and dedication isn't a very good position to be in. I'm sure giving S2 user registration data to Phase wasn't exactly something Leica was excited about, and how could they know for sure that their competitor was providing the absolute best quality s/w conversions for them?
I guess when the options were weighed, Leica decided that forging a long-term relationship with Adobe who isn't a hardware competitor and only a software vendor was the safer and better option.
Now, back to the Pentax. Anyone know what software will ship with it or if it will offer tethered operation?
David
Ugly or not Ugly, not really that important to me, actually it looks just like the old P645 which I used for years with film, except that the handle is now solid. Features that are a plus to me are:
Comparing this to the P45+ and AFDIII body, still waiting on the phantom
645DF body upgrade.
11 point AF, more like what I am used to using
3 inch LCD will assume it's more like the modern LCD's used today
I don't shoot tethered, all field work and the LCD on my P45+ is
not worth too much
Lithium Ion battery
Dust removal technology (a must since you can't remove the back)
Ability to capture different sized images
Cheaper price point.
All the controls are integrated to the body, not two separate systems
I realize the the new P65+ and DF body allow this now
Ability to use all the older Pentax MF AF and non AF glass
I still own many of the lenses, including the 35mmFA/AF one of the best
lenses in it's class, which I used for thousands of exposures with my
Zork Adapter with 1ds MKI, MKII, MKIII
Bright viewfinder allowing better manual focus opportunities.
I never have found the Mamiya viewfinder bright and easy to manually
focus
Possible Negatives:
Raw converter, slikypix? not to excited about that. The last time I looked
at the software it was still all in Japanese. Most likely ACR will eventually
pick up the raws, but it would be nice to have Capture 1 support
U.S. support? if any? Pentax has not had any real dealer support IMO for
last 6 years. Their Point and Shoot DSLR's don't count to me. This is
a much more involved camera. May be why it's only going to be released
in the Japanese market for now.
It will be interesting to see if the camera makes it to the U.S.
Paul Caldwell
Comparing this to the P45+ and AFDIII body, still waiting on the phantom
645DF body upgrade.
11 point AF, more like what I am used to using
3 inch LCD will assume it's more like the modern LCD's used today
I don't shoot tethered, all field work and the LCD on my P45+ is
not worth too much
Lithium Ion battery
Dust removal technology (a must since you can't remove the back)
Ability to capture different sized images
Cheaper price point.
All the controls are integrated to the body, not two separate systems
I realize the the new P65+ and DF body allow this now
Ability to use all the older Pentax MF AF and non AF glass
I still own many of the lenses, including the 35mmFA/AF one of the best
lenses in it's class, which I used for thousands of exposures with my
Zork Adapter with 1ds MKI, MKII, MKIII
Bright viewfinder allowing better manual focus opportunities.
I never have found the Mamiya viewfinder bright and easy to manually
focus
Possible Negatives:
Raw converter, slikypix? not to excited about that. The last time I looked
at the software it was still all in Japanese. Most likely ACR will eventually
pick up the raws, but it would be nice to have Capture 1 support
U.S. support? if any? Pentax has not had any real dealer support IMO for
last 6 years. Their Point and Shoot DSLR's don't count to me. This is
a much more involved camera. May be why it's only going to be released
in the Japanese market for now.
It will be interesting to see if the camera makes it to the U.S.
Paul Caldwell
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Might just be a great way to get in the MF world for a lot of folks. Bring it on
Agreed- looking fwd to initial reviews and, hopefully if all works out well, getting wider distribution. The Pentax may not be my eventual platform of choice, but welcome the price/performance pressure on the overall MFDB market it, again, will hopefully bring if it gets some legs.
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I like the way it looks!
Lars
Active member
Guy's got a point, I have to say that for the first time I'm tempted to sell off all my Nikon gear and get into more serious digital shooting. Just tempted.
David, from the Japanese site it looks as though it will be the Pentax version of Silkypix, as has been the case with their smaller DSLRs.
I haven't had time to wade through the Japanese text to figure out about tethering. However, in the past, Pentax's 645 marketing theme for the home market has consistently been "Super Field Camera", not "Super Studio Camera". And from the first taste of the 645D promotion it looks as though this theme may be emphasized for the digital version as well. This suggests that tethering may not be a high priority. But I emphasize that this is pure speculation on my part.
AA filter?
I have not seen any mention about an anti-aliasing filter on the Pentax. It is not specified whether it has one or not. Has anyone seen any information about this?
If it does have an AA filter, it will be interesting to see a comparison with all of the other 40MP cameras, as the Pentax might be the first to have one.
I have not seen any mention about an anti-aliasing filter on the Pentax. It is not specified whether it has one or not. Has anyone seen any information about this?
If it does have an AA filter, it will be interesting to see a comparison with all of the other 40MP cameras, as the Pentax might be the first to have one.
douglasf13
New member
no aa filter.
T
tokengirl
Guest
Might just be. I have been struggling with the "to MFDB or not" question for a while, and it's mainly the cost vs. functionality thing that I have a hard time justifying. I look forward to seeing what it can do.
Here you can see how the Pentax 645D looks in real....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLddJ4_c88
and new pictures
http://forum.digitalfotonetz.de/viewtopic.php?t=75669&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=103
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLddJ4_c88
and new pictures
http://forum.digitalfotonetz.de/viewtopic.php?t=75669&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=103
