Entrly Level Digital MF - The $5k Challenge

[Guy Mancuso]

Like Guy says, fantastic files, slow to use, "only" 22MP. But they're very high quality, fat pixels. Good dynamic range, certainly better than any 35mm DSLR I've used. Curiously, the only thing that bugs me is the small LCD; as I'm getting older I find it hard to read without glasses. That's the main reason I'd like a bigger screen (or a bigger font and bigger histogram even if still on the small screen). The screen isn't very accurate and clips long before the camera, so will tend to make shots look blown when the brightness is turned up for outdoor use. But I can live with that, certainly nothing I'd throw thousands of dollars at to fix.

If you're coming from 645 film and 35mm digital, prints off the ZD are going to blow you away. Completely different league entirely.

Totally agree Jan. The files rock and I like 9 micron sensors. Moire can be a issue so keep that in mind on certain subjects.

I like to describe this back in terms of excellent image quality but limited in speed , ISO and LCD and if that is something you are willing to compromise than it's worth the money. Also C1 can see these files which is a plus for me.

 

[tmessenger]

Mamiya 645 AFD II w 22MP Mamiya Digital back + 2 lenses

This kit just sold on ebay for $4700

Link; http://cgi.ebay.com/Mamiya-645-AFD-...ViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item1e5a3de3c5

 

[Anders_HK]

The OP did list a $5K budget... I had a ZD back and it worked fine at ISO 50 and 100, though a bit noisy after that and I think that's been improved in the ZDb. IIRC, the biggest issues with ZD's were folks with the ZD unit CAMERA, not the ZD backs with latest firmware.

Well... Jack may disagree which is fine, but... Guy and Jack sold their ZDs at same time and rather quick...

And Jack and Guy, let us be cautious to recommend something that can lead people into investment of $$ to something that might be a problem. IF the ZD was good my recommendation would be compete opposite.

Sorry, Jack but you are incorrect that the problem was limited to the ZD camera. It was there same in ZD back, if not more because Mamiya sold more ZD backs than ZD cameras. Actually Mamiya in Hong Kong when I tested out the problem tested all their stock for it, and... they had about 5 ZD backs and only one other ZD camera in stock --- ALL of which had same identical problem.

Well, here we go the link to my old post; http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22698

Please note that what I pointed out there was that the problem related not only to firmware but also HARDWARE, as confirmed by someone deep in the business whos name I will not reveal and who knew how Mamiya developed ZD with lack. In short Mamiya did not design the ZD back proper, likely because they could not or did not want to, due lack of $$$. It is up for whoever to believe that they have done so with the ZDb back which they sold much less of. I believe they did not do anything to hardware to correct the problem because of lack of $$$$. Also not to firmware, although perhaps they might have done something minor with help my Phase One, but doubtful. The big difference can be that CaptureOne was able to tune down the effects of the problem.

If you read my old post you can read that Mamiya blamed me the user, instead of admitting to any problem. Heck, they still have not admitted to a problem, but if they would have done so and fixed the dang :banghead: thing I would have praised them . Thus I would advise to stay heck away from it, simply because of above the ZD is high risk.

The Aptus 22 uses same identical sensor as ZD, but... was proper designed. Thus is excellent. Funny is it not? Dalsa sensors are great, personally I prefer them over Kodak as are in Phase One P25, P30 etc, but that is personal preference.

Above stated, depending on use the ZD might (read MIGHT) work ok, pending on if you use it in studio lighting with little dark or little black in image (or if you accept boosting blacks to kill the artifacts...). Thus the reality of ZD is that it has a very narrow window of use. Same as such lighting it appears that folks in very sunny environments had less problems... because the ZD needs ALOT of light, else problem shows up. Thus Jack and Guy, your posted photos from ZD was in bright Arizona light was it not???

Thanks Anders

I totally agree the P25 & P30 would be great choices. The issue then really becomes the risk of buying a used back. I did check as many reputable used outlets as I could find on the net. And the starting prices for these were above my budget, so my only option would be the big auction site.

I am just concerned that I would not have nay recourse if there was a problem or get stuck with a big repair bill.

Honest, I think it is best to either spend more to get a Phase One or Leaf, or to stay with film. Film is still a lovely media. Used digital back prices should keep on falling, as backs get older and new models are sold.

As I pointed out in above, the main risk is the sensor being in still good condition or not. Perhaps ask them to make test images for you before you buy?

Perhaps also contact a dealer of Phase One and Leaf to see not only what they can offer you, but also how much they would charge if you have certain problems with a back you pick up from Ebay. Per memory, with Phase One the back go pretty much back to Denmark for any problem, while with Leaf the agent can fix more problems locally. Please correct me anyone if I am wrong.

Mamiya 645 AFD II w 22MP Mamiya Digital back + 2 lenses

This kit just sold on ebay for $4700

Link; http://cgi.ebay.com/Mamiya-645-AFD-...ViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item1e5a3de3c5

Yes, one more selling off ZD...

While Leaf & Phase Ones; are being praised... you figure??

Regards
Anders

 

[Jan Brittenson]

Well, here we go the link to my old post; http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22698

People in the thread who mention they had similar problems with early units got them exchanged, and the problems went away. That was two years ago! Don't you read comments to your own thread?!

 

[Anders_HK]

People in the thread who mention they had similar problems with early units got them exchanged, and the problems went away. That was two years ago! Don't you read comments to your own thread?!

I have read all of ZD and it was not limited to early units. There has been no post of proof to the contrary of the problem I and others pointed out, except what I stated in the above post. Thus do not slam me, I am only speaking honest truth and knowledge, nothing else. More so, if Mamiya would have had the balls, they would have stuck their heads out to correct the issue and show so had been done.

Do bear in mind that some had the "purple worm" syndrome as pointed out by Frank Doorhof and that problem was corrected by Mamiya. However, that was a different problem with limited number of ZD backs effected.

As I stated - due its problem (lack of design, lack in internal software coding) - the ZD has a very narrow window of use, and as such limit the photographic use.

If you disagree on the problem I pointed out two years ago, please prove a ZD in same test as I did. Nobody has yet done so without the artifacts.

Is the ZDb better, maybe - if so likely due coding in Capture One. Should one spend a large 5k USD on that, or keep it in bank and wait for used Phase One or Leaf to drop?

I have nothing against Mamiya and use their products, except I believe they should have produced also ZD to quality. More so... with the knowledge I have of ZD I believe it is being fair to advise of the issue before people drop money on it.

Mamiya appear to have stepped away from ZD and now into the M-labeled backs my Phase one, see here http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09061502mamiyam18m22m31digitalbacks.asp. If I understand correct they are made by Phase One and are thus highly reputable.

Regards
Anders

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Anders I have been through 4 backs in less than 2 years so I really don't think I qualify as I had a issue with that back more I am a gear slut if anything. But honestly my issue was speed both shooting speed and ISO and the only reason I have been moving up plus some bigger mpx. I have a P40+ which is about the fastest shooting back you can get and great high ISO. Certainly would rather see people go straight for a P25+ over the ZD no question. It's faster, better ISO and better LCD plus it has Phase One behind it but we are talking 5 k here and actually my old P25+ is in the B&S from Mark but priced around 7500 dollars which I would much rather see him buy. The biggest issue with the ZD is people tend to out grow it pretty fast because it is slow although Jan is still shooting his. It's a matter of needs but I would not mind having one as a backup especially with the IR filter as it is my P40+ needs to go in for repair and back to Denmark no less for a battery button replacement. It get's stuck on full depression and I have to reach in and do a release on the gear. Not serious as far as the back itself just a PITA in the field. Actually am working on that today when to send it.

 

[Anders_HK]

Guy,

Speaking prices, I was surprised when an Aptus 65 sold for 6,800 usd mid last year - http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8091&highlight=aptus+65

I see now one for Hassy available for only 5,900 usd!!!! Here, http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13599&highlight=aptus+65 and from what I understand a reputable dealer.

And... I think mounts can be changed by Leaf, although I am not 100 on it or what is cost to do so... Perhaps check with a dealer/agent.

Or simply keep look here http://www.optechsdigital.com/usedanddemobacks.htm and other reputable places.

Whenever I sell/upgrade I hope I will get good $$, but seems current economy is not too well...? + :toocool:

Regards
Anders

 

[Guy Mancuso]

That is the issue the economy sucks and more people are hanging on to what they have but there are still deals out there but under 5k is going to be tough to get a Phase P25+ or something similar. The problem with the ZD is people outgrow it pretty quick because they want something faster at least I know in Jack's and my case that is what we both realized. Jack went ZD, P45+ to P65+ and I went ZD, P25+, P30+ and than P40+ which is fairly recent . The one nice thing buying Hassy and Or Phase from the start is these OEM's do have some nice upgrade paths sometimes within there own line which not checking here but assume better than off brand upgrades in pricing. I should add leaf in there as well as they also have nice upgrade paths.

Also what I like to call marketing 102 is the OEM's are trying to rid the market of used backs so people go into new backs, which I believe is the reason some of these upgrade paths are very good deals. They would than go to rentals , spares and finally garbage can to get them off the buying market.

 

[TheTubbyPixel]

Hi there,

Don't know if this is of any use, but I have been asked to dispose of 2 Mamiya demo units for a european distributor.

They are badged Mamiya M31 and comprise mamiya AFD III body and 80mm lens plus 31.6 mp back with a 44.2 x 33.1mm sensor size. My guess is they were P30 backs re-badged. Original price was £12999 when launched in August of last year.

price is £7999.00 each kit.

 

[R Shaffer]

Thanks to all for the great info & suggestions

Special thanks to Anders. I really appreciate the time you took to provide such a complete response about the problems you have had with the ZD. I certainly used that information to reevaluate whether or not the ZD would meet my needs.

Although in the end I decided to go ahead with purchasing the ZDb. It just seemed the best choice at this time. I'll be sure and report back after I have had a chance to make some images.

Thanks again

 

[Jan Brittenson]

If you disagree on the problem I pointed out two years ago, please prove a ZD in same test as I did. Nobody has yet done so without the artifacts.

It would be more useful to specify test conditions instead of "same test as I did" - because I can't go back in time and replace your camera with mine.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Thanks to all for the great info & suggestions

Special thanks to Anders. I really appreciate the time you took to provide such a complete response about the problems you have had with the ZD. I certainly used that information to reevaluate whether or not the ZD would meet my needs.

Although in the end I decided to go ahead with purchasing the ZDb. It just seemed the best choice at this time. I'll be sure and report back after I have had a chance to make some images.

Thanks again

Well, the plus for you is that even if you decide at some point the ZDb isn't the product for you and you decide to upgrade it, your investment was low, and (currently) trade-in values are up to 3 times the price you paid for it, depending on which product you're trading up to.

So, you may have a keeper, and even if you don't , little harm done.


Steve Hendrix

 

[Anders_HK]

Thanks to all for the great info & suggestions

Special thanks to Anders. I really appreciate the time you took to provide such a complete response about the problems you have had with the ZD. I certainly used that information to reevaluate whether or not the ZD would meet my needs.

Although in the end I decided to go ahead with purchasing the ZDb. It just seemed the best choice at this time. I'll be sure and report back after I have had a chance to make some images.

Thanks again

Hi,

The point I made here and in other threads is to be informative. As stated by post #19 indeed the ZD indeed also has good sides, albeit because of nature of its (improper?) design come with limitations. Actually, I sold my ZD the other year to a gentleman who read my posts of its problems and he thought in terms of limitations, $$$ and thought he could live with them. He has since sold ZD and upgraded.

And no, do not try to make same as my tests only, but try understand what I tested it for and what to look for. I would recommend that you test it when you get the ZD (if you buy on a proper return policy you are covered). Do bear in mind that there were some posts (mine included) over at LL of people who first did not see the artifacts. If you know what they look like and where to look then they are there. But, with above said... there is also chance the ZD could also be acceptable for your photography. Perhaps do some tests when you get it to make sure.

Within its narrow limitations (need lots of light, low ISO, or wider if C1 help?), I remain convinced that the ZD beats 1DsMk3, D3X etc... but there is still a larger gap to Aptus 22, 65, P25, P30 etc.

Sincerely wish you best of luck!

Regards
Anders

 

[Paratom]

Thanks to all for the great info & suggestions

Special thanks to Anders. I really appreciate the time you took to provide such a complete response about the problems you have had with the ZD. I certainly used that information to reevaluate whether or not the ZD would meet my needs.

Although in the end I decided to go ahead with purchasing the ZDb. It just seemed the best choice at this time. I'll be sure and report back after I have had a chance to make some images.

Thanks again

Congrats and report back how you like it.

On one side it is very good that we can learn about the strong side but also about the shortcomings of a system.
The bad thing is that we might start looking for faults which we might(?) have never found out ourselves and then get concerned. (I am not saying that this has to be the case with the ZDb)
Of course it depends a lot on the problem and also on the user (what one plans to do with the equipment and how much one is willing to work around).

 

[Dale Allyn]

@ R Shaffer:

Congratulations on your new purchase, and your foray into MF digital.

My advise (for what it's worth) is to NOT look for shortcomings of your new kit (as may or may not be suggested in various on-line discussions), but to look for satisfying images you can make with your new kit. Medium format digital is wonderful in my opinion.

I have seen some fantastic images created with the first generation ZD back (some here on this forum) and would expect the newer back to improve on those. I suggest that once you dive into a new kit such as this, that you spend as much time as possible refining your understanding of it, and ignore any online chatter for a while. Although these fora can be very helpful as well if you have questions. Make some photos that please you with it, and don't read too much about the bleeding edge. There will be plenty of time for that.

I'm always longing to upgrade my kit, but if I'm honest, I rarely find my kit failing me and my current printing needs.

Welcome to MFD, with all its pain and financial ruin.

 

[fotografz]

@ R Shaffer:

Congratulations on your new purchase, and your foray into MF digital.

My advise (for what it's worth) is to NOT look for shortcomings of your new kit (as may or may not be suggested in various on-line discussions), but to look for satisfying images you can make with your new kit. Medium format digital is wonderful in my opinion.

I have seen some fantastic images created with the first generation ZD back (some here on this forum) and would expect the newer back to improve on those. I suggest that once you dive into a new kit such as this, that you spend as much time as possible refining your understanding of it, and ignore any online chatter for a while. Although these fora can be very helpful as well if you have questions. Make some photos that please you with it, and don't read too much about the bleeding edge. There will be plenty of time for that.

I'm always longing to upgrade my kit, but if I'm honest, I rarely find my kit failing me and my current printing needs.

Welcome to MFD, with all its pain and financial ruin.

Best advice I've read in some time!

-Marc

 

[R Shaffer]

Hi,

Within its narrow limitations (need lots of light, low ISO, or wider if C1 help?), I remain convinced that the ZD beats 1DsMk3, D3X etc...

Regards
Anders

I'll be very happy if this is the case, within limits of course :thumbup:

 

[R Shaffer]

Congrats and report back how you like it.

On one side it is very good that we can learn about the strong side but also about the shortcomings of a system.
The bad thing is that we might start looking for faults which we might(?) have never found out ourselves and then get concerned. (I am not saying that this has to be the case with the ZDb)
Of course it depends a lot on the problem and also on the user (what one plans to do with the equipment and how much one is willing to work around).

Pretty much exactly what I had in mind. Just start taking pictures the subjects I normally shoot and see where it goes.

 

[R Shaffer]

@ R Shaffer:

Congratulations on your new purchase, and your foray into MF digital.


Welcome to MFD, with all its pain and financial ruin.

Thanks, I agree, good advice.

I have to say I was pleasantly surprised when my wife agreed with my proposed purchase. Actually I was floored!! :clap:

 

[gsking]

Guy/Jack/et al,

Can anyone confirm the ZDb works only on AFDII and newer? I just saw one listed on Ebay with a AFD camera, which implies that they play well together.

Shaffer, which camera body did you get?

I'm sure MY wife won't approve of a $3700 expenditure...but, hey...I can dream. I got 50% of the sensor for 30% of the price...with an AFD...so I can't complain too much.

Greg