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Thread: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

  1. #1
    Photon
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    Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    Hi everone,

    as this is my first post here: a warm hello to all you guys (and the occasional girl).

    After following everything on this great forum intensly for the past one and a half year, I finally hope to decide the next couple of months on the MFDB-system that would fit my artistic needs best. Main target will be (conceptual) fine art photography, portraiture and macro (for wildlife I think I’ll keep on using my trustworthy Nikon gear).

    Now my question is this:

    What would be a more recent digital system with higher resolution and better ISO than Hassy’s CF-22 or Sinar’s 54LV (thanks for your previous mail, Graham) but with the same incomparable great fat pixels (9 x 9) that I absolutely love? Or does 9x9 indeed means being restricted to abt. 22mp? I’ve studied a truckload of MFDB’s of all kinds of brands but “still cannot find what I’m looking for”.

    Warmest,

    Ton

    http://www.tonvanmourik.com/

  2. #2
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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    Welcomei Ton,

    Agreed the 22MP with 9 micron pixels did give a nice image, but I really think it has been eclipsed with the latest offerings.

    The H4D40 (only as an example) gives much better results at anything off base ISO compared to the 22.

    Has finer resolution / more detail and less prone to moire / aliasing issues.

    I think really now, the advantages of the 22MP sensor are much less.

    However, if you are sold on it, then I am sure you can pick some up easily second hand.

    Unfortunately you won't find any 22MP backs with good high ISO performance, compared to today's offerings.

    David

    PS. Keep an eye on the Pro Centre for second hand stuff...

    http://www.procentre.co.uk/secondhan...l#hasselblad_h

    Also Calumet in NL will have second hand from time to time.

  3. #3
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    To add to Davids comments also the DR is a little less than other backs. When Jack and I ran a test against a P25/P45 and P65. So 9 micron, 6.8 micron and 6 micron. As the micron sizes got smaller the DR kept improving as well also I should add the Moire got less and less. End result is the 6 micron sensors in the new Hassy , Phase and leaf now both in 40, 50 and 60 flavors have improved even over the 6.8 and by a larger margin than the 9 micron. Leaf need to check all there backs for 6 micron, not as sure on that line.

    Also I think it is fair to say since I own a P40+ now that the noise levels have also improved as well. I do see a difference than my older 9 and 6.8 sensors in the ability to go higher ISO

    But the 9 micron sensors have a nice look about them too, just now with the newer sensors out the 9 micron is more of a compromise to the 6 micron that it was not before the release of these newer backs.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  4. #4
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    Pretty much you have your answer with what has already been said by Dave and Guy --- 9x9 limits you to about 22MP for that era full frame which had the 1.1 crop-factor. As a general rule, when you move up the ladder of newer generation backs, you get smaller pixel pitches, more resolution, better DR, lower artifacting such as moire, and less noise (better ISO) performance.

    The only other comment I can really add, is there is a difference in the look of the file generated between backs with Kodak sensors, and backs with Dalsa sensors. Stated another way, I feel the older Leaf Aptus 75 back with it's 33MP Dalsa sensor has a more similar look to my Phase P65+ Dalsa back than the earlier Kodak-sensored Phase backs did. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that if you've looked at a bunch of different files, you notice the difference in the way they render color. This is a subtle difference, but one you may want investigate while doing your shopping.

    The final suggestion I have is regardless of which back you decide on, spend an hour or so with a file from each working with their raw processor. Nothing worse that not getting along with a piece of software you will need to use on a daily basis...

    Oh, and welcome to GetDPI!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  5. #5
    Photon
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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    Thanks for quick responding, David, Guy & Jack.

    So this actually means choosing either better DR, ISO and resolution with a slightly different look (newer backs, f.i. 6, 6.8 or 7.2 micron) or restricted DR, ISO and resolution accompanying the personally preferred look of the older 9 micron backs?

    Isn't there a small compromising option in between or would I really have to succumb to "never the twain will meet"?

    Warmest,

    Ton

    http://www.tonvanmourik.com/

  6. #6
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    I guess NOW we could say and maybe David and Jack would agree with me is the 6.8 Micron sensors kind of ride the middle of the road. Still very good DR, Fairly good noise levels, Moire acceptable and a bigger file to work with which kind of leads you to the P30+ and H31. Not to mention the 39mpx Kodaks H39/P45+ these are still wonderful backs no question. Just that the new ones have upped the game a little more. Obviously a lot will be about budget as well buying the new 6 microns start at 20k and getting a used 6 micron being new is harder to find and only really right now would be a Phase since it has been out longer. Hassy and Leaf are just coming out to market so no used ones yet. Getting the older Kodak 31/39 backs are out there used and with fairly nice prices and still wonderful very valid backs to use and most popular in the market. So yes the 6.8 rides the middle road with good balance and awesome files. Now don't leave out the leaf backs here since they are all pretty much Dalsa sensors. So yes you have some options in 6.8 micron sizes
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  7. #7
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    Isn't there a small compromising option in between or would I really have to succumb to "never the twain will meet"?
    I don't think there is. IME the "look" of the 9u sensor is unique because it shows a higher inter-pixel contrast -- probably why they also show more noise. And it's kind of two competing curves as you go smaller and smaller on the pixel pitch.

    I would say the 7.2u still holds some of the 9u "look" characteristics, but then isn't a whole lot better on noise -- maybe a stop or so though. The 6.8u is a littler further removed...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    [QUOTE=Photon;185953]Hi everone,

    as this is my first post here: a warm hello to all you guys (and the occasional girl).

    After following everything on this great forum intensly for the past one and a half year, I finally hope to decide the next couple of months on the MFDB-system that would fit my artistic needs best. Main target will be (conceptual) fine art photography, portraiture and macro (for wildlife I think I’ll keep on using my trustworthy Nikon gear).

    Now my question is this:

    What would be a more recent digital system with higher resolution and better ISO than Hassy’s CF-22 or Sinar’s 54LV (thanks for your previous mail, Graham) but with the same incomparable great fat pixels (9 x 9) that I absolutely love? Or does 9x9 indeed means being restricted to abt. 22mp? I’ve studied a truckload of MFDB’s of all kinds of brands but “still cannot find what I’m looking for”.

    Warmest,

    Ton: it wouldn't me appropriate for portraiture, but if your fine-art and macro work can be done on tripod with a static subject then you could tkae a 22mp 9 micron back like the P25+ on a technical camera like the CWRS or a view camera and stitch 2 or 4 frames to get up around 70 megapixels. The per pixel look would be identical but your final image resolution would be around 1.8 to 3.5 times higher.

    Otherwise it's very unlikely you'll see another 9 micron sensor made. The manufacturing process tends towards smaller and smaller pixels.

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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    Alpa Max, Cambo WIde RS or Arca RM3D / RL3D work well for stitching with a 22MP.

  10. #10
    Photon
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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    Thanks, everyone. I'll give your suggestions - as well as all previous threads on the 9 micron's - a thought.

    Warmest,

    http://www.tonvanmourik.com/

  11. #11
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    Re: Deciding on best a/o most recent "9x9"

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon View Post
    Thanks, everyone. I'll give your suggestions - as well as all previous threads on the 9 micron's - a thought.

    Warmest,

    http://www.tonvanmourik.com/
    One additional thought ...

    depending on your range of subject matter, you could investigate a 22 meg Multi-Shot.

    These backs can be used as single shot, 4 shot or 4X4 Res (16) shot.

    As single shot units, they deliver all the 9X9 micron stuff many people love with a 132 meg 16 bit file, and operate the same as any 22 meg back.

    As 4 shot used for static subjects, the file is still a 132 meg., 16 bit file with that 9X9 micron feel ... but the issue of Moiré is basically eliminated.

    As 16 shot (for very stable subjects and a very stable camera), the file is now a whopping 528 meg. 16 bit using those 9X9 micron pixels.

    Many of these MS backs are favored by professional studios because of their versatility, and are still out there producing.

    Imacon, then Hasselblad, and Sinar made 22 meg. MS backs.

    -Marc

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